#1273 - Is she really Julia?

[Dante2001]

-I found it weird that Julia knew the ally was a "she" when Roy is just telling her that they found somebody
-She gets taken aback with not remembering some key shared memory

I've heard somebody mentioning that this is Sabine which seems plausible. I guess she can even imitate with some illusion the green aura?
Though imitating the spell itself would be more complex since its very unique and is based on Roy and Julia's connection.

Any ideas?

[Draconi Redfir]

also thought it was suspicious that she knew the ally was a She when Roy never told her. Could be a writer's error, but idk.

[ti'esar]

Ooh, good catch! I would bet against this just based on Occam's Razor, but it wouldn't be outside the bounds of possibility either.

[Draconi Redfir]

i would say at minimum, it suggests that Julia has been scrying on Roy for some reason. Maybe she's a little more invested about what's happening then she's putting on.

Until i get direct confirmation that it's not Julia though, I'm just going to assume it's Julia.

[npc revolution]

Great points! Some on the Order of the Stick subreddit are wondering the same thing in the discussion thread for #1273. The most common guess is that it is Roy's dad disguising himself for some reason.

[Xihirli]

It's also possible that Julia has studied Dwarven language enough to just identify that Minrah is a female Dwarf name.
By now I'd expect the entire party except Elan and Vaarsuvius could do the same for Azure City names.

[Fyraltari]

It's also possible that Julia has studied Dwarven language enough to just identify that Minrah is a female Dwarf name.
By now I'd expect the entire party except Elan and Vaarsuvius could do the same for Azure City names.

What dwarven language?

[Peelee]

Also Roy called Minrah "she" right after dropping the name, and neither he nor Julia called her a dwarf, so I'm not sure what that theory relates to.

[Metastachydium]

Also Roy called Minrah "she" right after dropping the name, and neither he nor Julia called her a dwarf, so I'm not sure what that theory relates to.

It's about first panel and Serini. But it's not really indicative of anything; there's an obvious time skip between no. 1191 and no. 1193 as evidenced by Julia already knowing what the exact deal is with Durkon, Redcloak, Thor and Big Purple. Roy likely told her about Serini in the same infodump we the readers skipped.

[Lord Torath]

I just figure as a popular, up-and-coming young woman, Julia naturally assumes any powerful new allies will also be women.

Kind of like how I, a cis-gender male, typically assume new characters will be male in the absence of any clarifying information. It's just the default assumption. (I'm not saying it's a good assumption, just that we generally assume new people will be like us.)

[Peelee]

It's about first panel and Serini.

sorry, i was referring to this post:

It's also possible that Julia has studied Dwarven language enough to just identify that Minrah is a female Dwarf name.
By now I'd expect the entire party except Elan and Vaarsuvius could do the same for Azure City names.

It doesn't seem to refer to anything because Roy didn't say Minrah name until later in the strip and immediately uses "her" to refer to Minrah. To Julia studying Dwarven naming conventions doesn't seem to relate to anything at all.

[Resileaf]

Well, I might as well post here the theory I posted in the comic's thread.

The Julia we see is an illusion conjured by Qarr.

Qarr is able to teleport at will to and from the IFCC's offices, where they are shown to be constantly monitoring the situation so they can react to it at the right time. It's very possible once they see that the Order of the Stick has made contact with Serini that they would send Qarr to try to fool Roy into doing their bidding after their monitoring revealed that Roy's sister could get in contact with him (their fiendish Teevo probably has a setting for that). Because he isn't limited by Serini's defenses, the archfiends can easily send an imp agent right where he's needed and cause some trouble.

Now, importantly, Qarr is something of an idiot. He's a blabbermouth and tends to reveal things he didn't intend to because he constantly underestimates the intelligence of his foes. He's also very easily flustered when caught on a lie. With him not knowing a lot of Roy's relationship with Julia and their family life, he can easily get things wrong and be made to say things he didn't intend to reveal by trying to overcorrect and keep the deception going.

[Peelee]

Because he isn't limited by Serini's defenses

This portion intrigues me. Why would this be the case?

[KorvinStarmast]

Because he isn't limited by Serini's defenses, the archfiends can easily send an imp agent right where he's needed and cause some trouble.

I don't understand 3.5e well enough to understand how that works. I am curious, though perhaps for a different reason than Peelee is since IIRC our dragonmod has ample 3.5e experience.

[Resileaf]

This portion intrigues me. Why would this be the case?

Most parts of the complex block teleportation, but I doubt that the portals at the entrances do (I don't believe it's been stated if actual planar travel like plane shift is also blocked (it probably is, but I'm not sure if going from one plane to another counts as going through the stone walls)). An imp can easily teleport past those (if he didn't just enter the complex with the gang when they first disarmed the teleportation trap) find the Order's location with scrying assistance from the IFCC, teleport in an out of trouble if needed, remain invisible and cast illusions when he sees Roy step out of Serini's hideout.

[Fyraltari]

Well, I might as well post here the theory I posted in the comic's thread.

The Julia we see is an illusion conjured by Qarr.

I don't recall Qarr ever using illusions. Can he do that?

[Dante2001]

I really like your take that this Julia is Qarr! He even trips his tongue in his usual manner and gets flustered when caught lying like you said. This fits nicely!

[Metastachydium]

Qarr is able to teleport at will to and from the IFCC's offices, where they are shown to be constantly monitoring the situation so they can react to it at the right time.

Unless you'd like to argue the Tomb is somewhere in the Nine Hells, I don't think the ability to teleport would help much with that. (Technically, imps don't even get Teleport at-will, but the Giant seems to have ignored that.)

I don't recall Qarr ever using illusions. Can he do that?

He's a high level sorcerer (capable of casting Charm Monster several times a day) and we haven't seen all his spells. So, maybe?

[Fyraltari]

He's a high level sorcerer (capable of casting Charm Monster several times a day) and we haven't seen all his spells. So, maybe?

Is he? I assumed that was just an Imp thing and he was low-level trash.

That said, if he can plausibly do it, then Qarr is my favourite suspect.

[Metastachydium]

Is he? I assumed that was just an Imp thing and he was low-level trash.

Yup. Imps are low-level trash; they only get, like, four SLAs by default and none of them is on that level. He also explicitly refers to himself as a "pretty good sorcerer" which is consistent with whatever spellslinging we see him do.

That said, I still think Julia just couldn't care less about Roy's graduation and Roy told him about Serini during the same short time skip where he explained the deal with Big Purple to her.

[Resileaf]

That said, I still think Julia just couldn't care less about Roy's graduation and Roy told him about Serini during the same short time skip where he explained the deal with Big Purple to her.

Which you won't see me say that it's impossible. Any theory any of us throw out there is pretty unlikely in the first place, I just felt like a smarty-pant telling it.

And if I end up being right, I get to brag about it like I just won the lottery. If not, no big loss.

[Metastachydium]

Which you won't see me say that it's impossible. Any theory any of us throw out there is pretty unlikely in the first place, I just felt like a smarty-pant telling it.

And if I end up being right, I get to brag about it like I just won the lottery. If not, no big loss.

Perfectly fair! I used to put out crazier stuff than that on a regular basis and I can proudly state that two of those arfe still not disproven!

[gbaji]

Well, since the main thread has devolved into a discussion about whether Julia should have used they instead of she... (it's like Camelot! Only without the towers).

I think that info about Serini was dumped between those two pages in the previous sending as well, and that's why Julia assumes it's Serini and uses "she". As I pointed out in the main thread, she also used Redcloak's name (title?) after the gap, despite Roy never having said the name in any panel to her previously. So it should be apparent that she learned a bunch of stuff, including the various players involved, during that info dump. We just didn't see it. It's reasonable to assume, given that Serini wrote the diary with the gate locations in it, and Serini is the one who built the gate they are going to, and Serini is the person they've been trying to contact via sending for several weeks now, that information about Serini would have been included in that dump.

I also think folks are reading a lot more into the body language and reactions of Julia than is really there. Doesn't preclude the possiblity of something else going on, but her behavior in this conversation is very similar to how she acted in the previous one. Same dess. Same speach patterns. Same reactions. Same awkward bits between her and Roy, which I see more as her maturing and both of them trying to become comfortable with communicating on a more equal mature footing.

As I mentioned in the main thread, every time we examine flaws in this conversation, we find that they line up with the same behavior/actions in the previous one. So anything that supports the idea that she's a fake Julia now also supports her being a fake before. But if we assume that she was a fake then, there are other holes that can't be explained (her detailed knowledge of things only a family member would know). Which leads us back to "she was real then, but is fake now". And we go around in circles again.

I think someone suggested the idea that Julia could be possessed (or even being forced in some way to communicate). That supports the conditions a bit better than someone with an illusion spell I think. It could explain her knowledge and behavior, while allowing for a "twist" that still involves the IFCC (or whomever, but they'd be the smart bet at this point). Again though, until there's something that happens that precludes this just being Julia, I'm going to assume it's just Julia.


I also see a lot of holes in the idea that it's Qarr. And yeah, having to assume he's got spells and powers we've never seen is just one (but possible though). The bigger issue if he's physically there (or anyone being physically there doing this) is the problem of actually getting there in the first place. Teleportation is blocked, and I'd assume that goes for gating as well. It's possible the IFCC could scry into the area, but getting someone inside would require physically bypassing the traps. Possible, I suppose, especially if you know they're there. But the issue is, how do you avoid detection? It's pretty unreasonable to asssume that Qarr could have slipped in with the party. I find it unlikely that between V and D, no one has some sort of truesight or see invisible spell going (and even if they forgot, a plan dependent on no one spotting you seems pretty weak). We have no evidence that Qarr has disable traps as an ability (but he could).

Again though. If you have the ability to scry there, the IFCC could also maybe use some sort of wizard eye thing to use illusions directly and from a distance. That avoids the teleportation issues, and the need to keep a physical person hidden, and allows for a "fake sending" that Roy might perceive as the real thing. Again though, I really don't see sufficient deviation between Julias current and previous sending behaviors to suggest that this is happening in the first place. So it's a lot of theorizing for something that has a much simpler explanation.

[Devlerbat]

It has just occurred to me that Julia hasn't made fun of Roy even once in this conversation so far. She didn't even call him a dork, loser, or anything like that. Even her "I guess you learned more at that fighter college" comment was more of a genuine realization than a deliberate teasing jab. I wouldn't even qualify her sarcastic line at the end of the current page since that didn't seem like anything intended to tease or mock Roy in a noticeable way either.


From what I remember of her previous interactions with Roy, this is very out of character for her. I would consider this a bigger clue than her knowing the ally was female or how the comic drew attention to her not remembering Roy's fighter college audition.

It is big enough of one that I am not sure if Roy has actually figured it out and just isn't letting it on or not. I feel like he may have revealed too much for that to be the case, but I'm not sure.

Either way this definitely reads as an imposter that is trying to act like a sister while having no idea what their actual dynamic is. I honestly don't think this is Eugene since he has no reason to deceive Roy like this. Roy didn't exactly reject his dad's call last time. He rejected the advice, but that is because of its actual contents, not because of the source of said advice. The IFCC, just from being magically powerful enough and us knowing they have been scrying on the OotS, seem like the only other people that could even potentially know about Julia's ability to hijack the Blood Oath for communication (let alone what the blood oath is.)

[ti'esar]

It has just occurred to me that Julia hasn't made fun of Roy even once in this conversation so far. She didn't even call him a dork, loser, or anything like that. Even her "I guess you learned more at that fighter college" comment was more of a genuine realization than a deliberate teasing jab. I wouldn't even qualify her sarcastic line at the end of the current page since that didn't seem like anything intended to tease or mock Roy in a noticeable way either.


From what I remember of her previous interactions with Roy, this is very out of character for her. I would consider this a bigger clue than her knowing the ally was female or how the comic drew attention to her not remembering Roy's fighter college audition.

It is big enough of one that I am not sure if Roy has actually figured it out and just isn't letting it on or not. I feel like he may have revealed too much for that to be the case, but I'm not sure.

Either way this definitely reads as an imposter that is trying to act like a sister while having no idea what their actual dynamic is. I honestly don't think this is Eugene since he has no reason to deceive Roy like this. Roy didn't exactly reject his dad's call last time. He rejected the advice, but that is because of its actual contents, not because of the source of said advice. The IFCC, just from being magically powerful enough and us knowing they have been scrying on the OotS, seem like the only other people that could even potentially know about Julia's ability to hijack the Blood Oath for communication (let alone what the blood oath is.)

I will say while I thought that could easily be accounted for by Julia having grown up a bit and the Fairly Important nature of the conversation.... I just went back and looked at 1272, and specifically the middle segment with Roy admitting making up nonsense to mess with her. Look at the reaction: a and a "?!" tag - that looks like pretty obvious shorthand for a level of surprise that does seem like it'd make a lot more sense from, yeah, someone completely unfamiliar with their actual dynamic.

[KorvinStarmast]

That said, I still think Julia just couldn't care less about Roy's graduation and Roy told him about Serini during the same short time skip where he explained the deal with Big Purple to her.

Is the 'him' in this sentence referring to Eugene, Qarr, or Julia?

[gbaji]

It has just occurred to me that Julia hasn't made fun of Roy even once in this conversation so far. She didn't even call him a dork, loser, or anything like that. Even her "I guess you learned more at that fighter college" comment was more of a genuine realization than a deliberate teasing jab. I wouldn't even qualify her sarcastic line at the end of the current page since that didn't seem like anything intended to tease or mock Roy in a noticeable way either.

She hasn't treated him that way since Panel three of this strip. Since that point, she has switched to taking him seriously, insisting that she can handle "adult" problems (the whole "I'm seventeen" bit as well), and offering to help, then getting infromation, and providing advice. That's the point that their relationship changed.

The current conversation is consistent with the previous one in this regard.

From what I remember of her previous interactions with Roy, this is very out of character for her. I would consider this a bigger clue than her knowing the ally was female or how the comic drew attention to her not remembering Roy's fighter college audition.

Again though, we actually see the transition in the previous interaction with Roy. What would be far more inconsistent is if someone was faking Julia and acted the way she acted back in Cliffport instead of continuing to act the way she did for the last 3/4ths of the previous conversation they had. Having Julia act consistently as she did in the previous conversation either means that the faker also faked that conversation, or were able to spy on it and are faking her behavior based on that (in which case there is no inconsistency with which to base our assumption on) *or* it's just Julia, being forced to grow up a bit because of the seriousness of what's going on, and both of them somewhat fumbling around with the new paradigm.

I think the last option makes the most sense. The sheer number of assumptions and actions we have to insert (absence any really strong evidence) in order for this to be anyone but Juila makes those other options significantly less likely.

Not impossible, mind you, but I'm just not seeing enough there.

I will say while I thought that could easily be accounted for by Julia having grown up a bit and the Fairly Important nature of the conversation.... I just went back and looked at 1272, and specifically the middle segment with Roy admitting making up nonsense to mess with her. Look at the reaction: a and a "?!" tag - that looks like pretty obvious shorthand for a level of surprise that does seem like it'd make a lot more sense from, yeah, someone completely unfamiliar with their actual dynamic.

What is she surpised by though? That Roy hit her with a burn? Anyone familiar with Julia from Cliffport, and using that to model their "fake Julia", would not be surprised at all. They would think that was normal, and respond in kind. The very fact that she has this reaction is the best evidence that this Julia is, at the very least, the same person Roy spoke to in the previous sending on the ship (or someone who has knowledge of that conversation).

She's behaving exactly as that Julia would behave, not the Julia we saw back in Cliffport. So the evidence she's a fake is that she's acting like her current self instead of a younger version of herself? That kinda doesn't make a lot of sense. Unless I'm missing something?

[Roland Itiative]

Would the IFCC even need to scout the party like that? They seem to have pretty strong scrying, they could have gotten most of that information first-hand.

[Metastachydium]

Is the 'him' in this sentence referring to Eugene, Qarr, or Julia?

Maybe it's a typo and what I actually meant to write was her; or maybe it's a clue that I'm not exactly who you think I am either. [Ominous orchestral note.]

[Somniloquist]

So I've been reading this thread and the main one, and it almost seems like nobody got the joke in the last panel - that Roy doesn't realize that a minor difference between two swords is something only a fighter would find funny. Of course Julia doesn't remember the details of Roy's college admissions test, she never cared about that!