MitD XIV: High In Protean

[Quartz]

I was thinknig about the Monster not seeing magical gates. In the ELH one of the Abominations is prohibited from entering the Prime Material. Is there a monster where the prohibition is reversed? As in a monster that cannot leave the Prime?

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I was thinknig about the Monster not seeing magical gates. In the ELH one of the Abominations is prohibited from entering the Prime Material. Is there a monster where the prohibition is reversed? As in a monster that cannot leave the Prime?

MitD can see the gate. He just doesn't seem to know that an archway with a massive wooden construction in front is called "gate".

GW

[Squire Doodad]

Because of the inertia and the curator issue, I don't think that Crusher's list should directly replace the FBS section.

I have some sympathy for voting creatures into a forerunner section, but that should be repeated regularly when we find new creatures, arguments or clues. And that seems like a lot of effort. Still, if GW would prefer that to all the discussions about the FBS criteria, OK.

From what I can tell, the FBS is perfectly functional. Most of the people suggesting a new system seem to be basically asking for the FBS but with a different name and a trivial difference, with suggests there's little actually wrong with it. At the very least, nothing we can't just vote on.

[Keltest]

The only changes i would make to the FBS list is to remove the maximum size limitation (perhaps replacing it with a minimum size instead, since we know the MITD is abnormally small, not abnormally large), and an elaboration on what "impossible categories" actually means, since it was not immediately obvious to me what specifically that was referring to. In and of itself, i think the list does what we need it to do: a list of creatures we as a group have decided are especially likely candidates. Yes, that means the ha-naga probably wont get on, but since almost nobody is convinced of its suitability, thats working as intended.

[MartytheBioGuy]

As I'm looking through entries, my mind keeps wandering back to O-Chul's statement in #1042- "If I told him, I don't think he'd believe me either." There's a lot that this could mean. Maybe MitD properly doesn't know what he is, and what he is is incredibly outlandish. Maybe it's just O-Chul's belief that the MitD is good (Lien certainly might not believe it, especially if his species is usually evil). But at least for me it is a line about his identity that I just can't shake.

[b_jonas]

From what I can tell, the FBS is perfectly functional.

No it's not. This thread was full of long flamewars where a group of posters versus the Grey Wolf repeat the same arguments about the sizes of monsters. It used to be just 3Power versus Grey Wolf locked into an endlessly repeating flamewar in the previous threads, and they were on hold for long enough that the occasional flamewars were tolerable, but then lio and three more people joined, so now it looks to me like a third of this effing thread is Grey Wolf repeating that a poodle-sized elephant can't lift a truck, and it frankly makes the thread annoying to follow. I'd accept a high price to reduce the quantity of this flamewar. I'm not sure if dissolving the FBS section would be enough, but it's the best idea to do so that I heard, so I'm in favor of doing it. As a small bonus, if we do it, there'll definitely also be less discussions about the Carbosilicate Amorph and the Snorlax.

[Ruck]

As I'm looking through entries, my mind keeps wandering back to O-Chul's statement in #1042- "If I told him, I don't think he'd believe me either." There's a lot that this could mean. Maybe MitD properly doesn't know what he is, and what he is is incredibly outlandish. Maybe it's just O-Chul's belief that the MitD is good (Lien certainly might not believe it, especially if his species is usually evil). But at least for me it is a line about his identity that I just can't shake.

Thus, I believe that the MITD is a literal manifestation of the concept “You can be whatever you want if you put your mind to it,” and that the Protean is the creature that fits this theme. (Other people have expressed this idea in other posts better than I am here, but searching in threads seems to be somewhat broken right now on the forums, so I couldn’t find those posts.) This also explains why O-Chul doesn’t think the MITD would believe his theory on what he is (if he is correct); for someone who has been as passive as MITD has his whole life, learning he is not just capable of setting his own course, but in fact a creature of great and immense power, capable of virtually anything, would indeed come as a shock.

Aside, I actually really, really would like to see a story-based case for any of the creatures besides the Protean. I couldn't come up with any, myself.

[MartytheBioGuy]

The Protean just strikes me as having some of the same problems as "unbridled shapeshifter" under section 2d. Most of its powers it gains as a result of coincidentally shapeshifting the right part of the right thing at the right time. It doesn't strike me as incredibly conducive to a guessing game. That said, while it's not very convincing to me, I can see where others are coming from, and I certainly don't want someone to start shoving the protean essays at me. I've read them, they tell a nice story, I'm just not convinced.

Because of his affinity for Go, I'm also a bit inclined toward creatures with black and/or white theming, but obviously I won't lobby for those being requirements or anything, it's just something that tickles my fancy. I think I'm actually going to come down on a guess now. Put me down as equally in favor of white or black slaad, both higher than black troll.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

The Protean just strikes me as having some of the same problems as "unbridled shapeshifter" under section 2d.

No, that's categorically wrong. Proteans are limited in many ways that unbridled shapeshifters are not. They cannot pass for other creatures - thus not falling under the "what if the creature the SBGH or Oona see is not the one he is". He is also limited to four powers at once, which shapeshifters are not. Finally, he is limited to Ex powers, generally speaking the weakest - so he can do a dragon's tail sweep, but not dragon breath.

Grey Wolf

[Ruck]

The Protean just strikes me as having some of the same problems as "unbridled shapeshifter" under section 2d. Most of its powers it gains as a result of coincidentally shapeshifting the right part of the right thing at the right time. It doesn't strike me as incredibly conducive to a guessing game.

I think only one power in the strip MITD has shown, the Escape scene, would have needed to come from shapeshifting for a Protean, and I would call that shift anything but coincidental. (Indeed, Rich himself describes it as "MITD reaching down and discovering powers he didn't know he had.")

MITD may not have consciously known what he was shifting into, but with a Protean's high INT/WIS stats and knowledge of creatures (which MITD certainly seems to share all around), it's certainly plausible that subconsciously MITD picked a creature that had the power to get O-Chul and Vaarsuvius to safety.

[MartytheBioGuy]

No, that's categorically wrong. Proteans are limited in many ways that unbridled shapeshifters are not. They cannot pass for other creatures - thus not falling under the "what if the creature the SBGH or Oona see is not the one he is". He is also limited to four powers at once, which shapeshifters are not. Finally, he is limited to Ex powers, generally speaking the weakest - so he can do a dragon's tail sweep, but not dragon breath.

Grey Wolf

I said that to me, it has some of the same problems. I did not, nor would not, say that they're identical. I recognize the distinctions, but it is my opinion, one that I'm not even proselytizing, that a shapeshifter in general can be problematic, and one as variable as a protean has not grabbed my vote.

ETA: There's been at least one suggestion that the earthquake stomp, if not just a product of brute strength, is also a shapeshifting pull. Which, again, makes a certain amount of sense, it just isn't convincing to me.

[lio45]

Aside, I actually really, really would like to see a story-based case for any of the creatures besides the Protean. I couldn't come up with any, myself.

The counter-argument is that while this is exactly the kind of message we'd expect Later Rich Burlew to want to convey in his work, "what MitD is" was picked in 2004 and set in stone since.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

The new thread is open for business, including the FBS vote.

Grey Wolf

[Ruck]

The counter-argument is that while this is exactly the kind of message we'd expect Later Rich Burlew to want to convey in his work, "what MitD is" was picked in 2004 and set in stone since.

But 2004 Rich picked MITD's species with his story role and character arc in mind, and he's still telling the same story.

EDIT: This is also not an argument for any of the other species, which is what I was asking.

[yeetusmcgeetus]

I was re-reading SoD today and saw something interesting: "sometimes it's hard being looked at by so many people." To me, this implies that it is something that changes form (maybe abilities, maybe not) based on who observes it. This also explains the mixed reactions from the crowd: curiosity, mild discomfort, vomiting, fear... I don't have any specific monsters but just wanted to point this out.