MitD XIV: High In Protean

[Schroeswald]

I'll change my vote to Snorlax, with Protean second.

Protean is too much a squarish peg fitting a roundish hole to my liking.

And Snorlax is a character trademarked by a massive company, most flaws have ways you can weasel around them, you just can't do that with Snorlax's problem (also he doesn't fit the Circus scene at all, but thats pretty minor in comparison), and yes, I've read the first few threads, much typing was spilled on figuring out if it was possible, and it wasn't.

[Peelee]

How large are the two black dragons? Can't really get a grip on the size categories...

The one slain in the cave was a Young Adult, so Large. The one slain in the elven lands was Ancient, so Huge.

And Snorlax is a character trademarked by a massive company, most flaws have ways you can weasel around them, you just can't do that with Snorlax's problem (also he doesn't fit the Circus scene at all, but thats pretty minor in comparison), and yes, I've read the first few threads, much typing was spilled on figuring out if it was possible, and it wasn't.

I know that prody falls under fair use, but I don't know whether that is applicable here, and I'd rather not speculate on it. It's in the realm of possibility, I think is the safest thing to say.

[Doug Lampert]

I know that prody falls under fair use, but I don't know whether that is applicable here, and I'd rather not speculate on it. It's in the realm of possibility, I think is the safest thing to say.

I am not a lawyer, so do not take anything below except the part where I say to get a real lawyer as legal advice, but:

Fair use is copyright, as far as I know there is NO equivalent for trademark and no parody protection for use of a trademark.

I would not use a trademark and assume that I could get away with claiming parody without prior discussion with a lawyer specializing in US intellectual property law, because copyright fair use is simply irrelevant.

[Ruck]

I'll change my vote to Snorlax, with Protean second.

Protean is too much a squarish peg fitting a roundish hole to my liking.

What isn't?

[Crusher]

The fact that we’re in Book 7 now makes me wonder if this thread will be The thread. I think it might depend on if we see a lot of the MitD/get a lot of hints and that drives conversation onto the next thread, or if the reveal comes without a ton of MitD build up. And of course, how active we are at the baseline.

Near the end of the last thread I did some crappy envelope math on how long these threads last, how long Book 7 is likely to be (and when in Book 7 the reveal is likely to happen), and my estimate was near the end of thread #16 at the earliest and probably more likely in thread #17.

Edit - Hardcore, gotcha.

[Hardcore]

If I were a patreon I would in the next patreon backer QA session ask about trademarks and MitD. Is confusing that Snorlax is tm, but the pokemon ball is not?
Would be nice with some clarification.

[Morty]

The MitD reveal is going to be a crucial part of the story when it happens. While I'm not sure how the revelation he's a Protean might be crucial, I have no clue at all how "he was a Pokemon all along" could possibly be.

[LadyEowyn]

Any speculation on the MitD's size beyond the fact than it is smaller than an adult member of its species will not be reflected in the list. This is because said speculation is not guaranteed to line up with the Giant's own opinion on how far and through what method he is allowed to shrink the creature.

I’m going with this as well.

And guessing that whatever the MITD is, it’s something that can cast Wish or Miracle. The teleport-based explanations for the escape scene aren’t satisfactory to me.

The Grey Linnorm seems like a solid choice except for the issue of “does it look weird enough?”

[hamishspence]

When it comes to "shrinking the creature to represent the younger version" the rules for Giants in MM are the most generous - its Hit Dice, Str, and Con, are reduced, but its mental stats (and Dex) are identical to those of the adult version, its AC is identical to the adult version, and it retains all its special abilities.

The question would be if the Juvenile Giants rules work well enough for other creatures, that it would be plausible that they'd be used.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

The Grey Linnorm seems like a solid choice except for the issue of “does it look weird enough?”

The Grey Linnorm doesn't need to gain any levels in cleric to assist with the raising of undead, since they cast as 17th level clerics.

Grey Wolf

[Kelenius]

Come to think of it, wouldn't any monster with Wish/Miracle be excluded, because they could use those to replicate Animate Dead?

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Come to think of it, wouldn't any monster with Wish/Miracle be excluded, because they could use those to replicate Animate Dead?

Miracle-capable monsters tend to have an issue with raise undead even without miracle, as is the case for the grey linnorm. Wish-capable monsters are a bit trickier (and we could consider it if we ever did have a decent candidate, but we don't), but take into account that one such would need to expend 5000 XP to duplicate those spells, and it is altogether possible MitD doesn't have 5k XP to spend, by RC's calculation. Those marshmallow peeps really don't give that much XP (although, admittedly, 5k XP for wish would be a lesser cost than the 10k it takes to get to level 5).

Beyond that, though, it feels off to use Wish to duplicate what is a level 3 spell. It is overkill, and Wish is not a tool you want to be using willy-nilly. At least in my games, overuse of wish tended to bring about karma retribution (i.e. the DM got inventive, but I'd say in OotS, the universe would fill that role)

Grey Wolf

[Darth Paul]

And guessing that whatever the MITD is, it’s something that can cast Wish or Miracle. The teleport-based explanations for the escape scene aren’t satisfactory to me.

While I'm not debating your satisfaction or lack thereof, it leaves the question of why MitD could not then replicate the feat afterwards with the hobgoblin guard. If he has Wish as a native ability, once he discovered how to use it and help O-Chul escape, why can't he use it again?

It's true that there are several entries in the MM and other guides and splatbooks that have Wish as an ability a certain number of times per day or per week, so maybe his one use was his weekly limit and then no matter how much he Wished, he couldn't do it again at that time... but most of those are deities or demons, which I feel certain MitD isn't, since he's not a living embodiment of an alignment. And most of those also involve granting wishes for someone else. Arguably, O-Chul might have wished to escape at that time, but he never verbalized it, so unless MitD read his mind, how could he grant said wish? So said creature would arguably also need a form of telepathy as an ability in order to grant the Wish, if that's the form its ability is.

This is starting to feel a little "wall of text"-y, and a little argumentative, neither of which was my intent, but I'm trying to lay out an affirmative case for MitD having Wish as an ability, and what creature it might be. Now, I don't have the knowledge to pick exactly what creature that is, and I could justifiably be accused of prejudice since I already have my chips on the Protean, but I'm trying to keep an open mind. So if a creature that fits all the other criteria and also has Wish 1/week (but not at will, since that brings up the above contradiction) in its special abilities bloc is put forward... that would definitely draw my attention. So far, I don't recall having seen it.

[3Power]

Come to think of it, wouldn't any monster with Wish/Miracle be excluded, because they could use those to replicate Animate Dead?

No, because that requires a specific, literal interpretation of the Redcloak "five levels in cleric" scene that requires him to not only have full knowledge of all the MiTD's abilities, but also say something much more spoilery, accurate, and unfunny to refer to his inability to raise dead at that moment.

"Did you finally learn to cast spells?" is both comparatively unfunny and spoils the "he has magic" bombshell hundreds of strips early. There's no reason to assume that "five levels in cleric" is anything more than shorthand for "what it takes to animate dead."

While I'm not debating your satisfaction or lack thereof, it leaves the question of why MitD could not then replicate the feat afterwards with the hobgoblin guard. If he has Wish as a native ability, once he discovered how to use it and help O-Chul escape, why can't he use it again?

A.Not enough floating XP.
B. Him not having full control over his powers, as established by word of god. Casting at the height of emotional stress both fits the escape scene and Xykon's own example of casting a 3rd level spell to zombify his dog despite presumably not having even 1 level of sorcerer at that point.

[Doug Lampert]

Miracle-capable monsters tend to have an issue with raise undead even without miracle, as is the case for the grey linnorm. Wish-capable monsters are a bit trickier (and we could consider it if we ever did have a decent candidate, but we don't), but take into account that one such would need to expend 5000 XP to duplicate those spells, and it is altogether possible MitD doesn't have 5k XP to spend, by RC's calculation. Those marshmallow peeps really don't give that much XP (although, admittedly, 5k XP for wish would be a lesser cost than the 10k it takes to get to level 5).

Beyond that, though, it feels off to use Wish to duplicate what is a level 3 spell. It is overkill, and Wish is not a tool you want to be using willy-nilly. At least in my games, overuse of wish tended to bring about karma retribution (i.e. the DM got inventive, but I'd say in OotS, the universe would fill that role)

Grey Wolf

Spell-like abilities ignore components, and the XP cost is a component cost.

[Ruck]

The MitD reveal is going to be a crucial part of the story when it happens. While I'm not sure how the revelation he's a Protean might be crucial

See post 8, part 3.

[Quebbster]

No, because that requires a specific, literal interpretation of the Redcloak "five levels in cleric" scene that requires him to not only have full knowledge of all the MiTD's abilities, but also say something much more spoilery, accurate, and unfunny to refer to his inability to raise dead at that moment.

Redcloak claims to know what the MitD is, and given that he is a huge nerd no one likes he most likely has an exhaustive list of the MitD's abilities and possible future abilities stashed away somewhere. He wasn't present at the Escape and that may have been for story reasons.

[halfeye]

Tracking MitD guesses

...

List of guesses

...

Halfeye - Boojum 6/1/16, Black Hole > Boojum 7/24/18, Nightcrawler 3/19/19

...

I think (assuming that > means "greater or more probable than"), that what I want now is Boojum > Nightcrawler > Black Hole. Would it be convenient to change my guess to this please?

[3Power]

Redcloak claims to know what the MitD is, and given that he is a huge nerd no one likes he most likely has an exhaustive list of the MitD's abilities and possible future abilities stashed away somewhere. He wasn't present at the Escape and that may have been for story reasons.

A. Knowing what the MiTD is and knowing the sum of his capabilities are not the same thing.

B. At every point since the circus scene Redcloak's attitude towards the MiTD has been little more than indifference and/or contempt. I don't buy into the concept that he actually cares a whole lot about the MiTD offscreen and has been doing a ton of research.

Spell-like abilities ignore components, and the XP cost is a component cost.

Spells cast as a sorcerer/cleric/druid/whatever do, however.

[LadyEowyn]

While I'm not debating your satisfaction or lack thereof, it leaves the question of why MitD could not then replicate the feat afterwards with the hobgoblin guard. If he has Wish as a native ability, once he discovered how to use it and help O-Chul escape, why can't he use it again?

It's true that there are several entries in the MM and other guides and splatbooks that have Wish as an ability a certain number of times per day or per week, so maybe his one use was his weekly limit and then no matter how much he Wished, he couldn't do it again at that time... but most of those are deities or demons, which I feel certain MitD isn't, since he's not a living embodiment of an alignment. And most of those also involve granting wishes for someone else. Arguably, O-Chul might have wished to escape at that time, but he never verbalized it, so unless MitD read his mind, how could he grant said wish? So said creature would arguably also need a form of telepathy as an ability in order to grant the Wish, if that's the form its ability is.

This is starting to feel a little "wall of text"-y, and a little argumentative, neither of which was my intent, but I'm trying to lay out an affirmative case for MitD having Wish as an ability, and what creature it might be. Now, I don't have the knowledge to pick exactly what creature that is, and I could justifiably be accused of prejudice since I already have my chips on the Protean, but I'm trying to keep an open mind. So if a creature that fits all the other criteria and also has Wish 1/week (but not at will, since that brings up the above contradiction) in its special abilities bloc is put forward... that would definitely draw my attention. So far, I don't recall having seen it.

My sense is that the MITD doesn’t understand how to use its powers intentionally. It used Wish by having an overwhelming desire for O-Chul to escape (and wanted him to be somewhere safe, therefore transporting him directly to the Azurites). But it doesn’t know how it achieved that, and doesn’t know how to replicate it with the hobgoblins.

Everything we see about MITD indicates that it has vast capacities that it doesn’t understand and (due to inertia, childishness, and apathy) hasn’t yet tried to use. It’s now starting to display them, due to having motivation (compare its usual apparent stupidity to its Book 6 analysis of inter-goblionoid relations), but it’s a gradual process.

I.E., the MITD’s inability to replicate Wish isn’t related to what MITD is, it’s related to who MITD is.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Near the end of the last thread I did some crappy envelope math on how long these threads last, how long Book 7 is likely to be (and when in Book 7 the reveal is likely to happen), and my estimate was near the end of thread #16 at the earliest and probably more likely in thread #17.

Edit - Hardcore, gotcha.

Ah, I must have missed that somehow. Of course, I’m guessing it’s very dependent on when exactly in the Book the reveal happens.

[Emanick]

My sense is that the MITD doesn’t understand how to use its powers intentionally. It used Wish by having an overwhelming desire for O-Chul to escape (and wanted him to be somewhere safe, therefore transporting him directly to the Azurites). But it doesn’t know how it achieved that, and doesn’t know how to replicate it with the hobgoblins.

Everything we see about MITD indicates that it has vast capacities that it doesn’t understand and (due to inertia, childishness, and apathy) hasn’t yet tried to use. It’s now starting to display them, due to having motivation (compare its usual apparent stupidity to its Book 6 analysis of inter-goblionoid relations), but it’s a gradual process.

I.E., the MITD’s inability to replicate Wish isn’t related to what MITD is, it’s related to who MITD is.

I absolutely buy that the MitD's inability to replicate Signore Stiffliano's Escape (probably via Wish) is related to who he is - in other words, I 100% agree with your reading of what that scene says about the character - but the scene also reads like a clue. That means that it's difficult for me to read it as compatible with the MitD being a creature that, for instance, can cast Wish once per day. In other words, I don't think "the MitD's inability to replicate Wish is related to who he is" is incompatible with "this scene is a hint as to what he is."

A. Knowing what the MiTD is and knowing the sum of his capabilities are not the same thing.

B. At every point since the circus scene Redcloak's attitude towards the MiTD has been little more than indifference and/or contempt. I don't buy into the concept that he actually cares a whole lot about the MiTD offscreen and has been doing a ton of research.

I agree with A. I'm not sure that Redcloak has to care much about the MitD's wellbeing for him to have basically memorized his stat block, though. He's pretty smart and has a fairly good memory.

He could have just read the splatbook with the MitD in it, been like "okay, this is useful tactical intel, let me try to memorize it," and then not really bothered to look at it since. That strikes me as being pretty plausible. He might not know or remember all of the MitD's abilities, but then again, he easily could.

[Kornaki]

I just noticed something when reading the protean essay.

https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0701.html

Mitd says it's hard to both move and hold something at the same time. Is this a reference to how it's hard for a protean to both move and hold its form at the same time? Or perhaps as a more literal statement, he has trouble doing both of these because his move action is already taken up holding his form every turn.

Also, the rope he's holding in panel 9 of that strip is oddly kinked. This might just be an art error, or it suggests something very weird is going on with how mitd is holding the rope.

[lio45]

What isn't?

Snorlax, for one.

[Peelee]

Snorlax, for one.

....ya know, I really should have seen that coming.

[Squire Doodad]

Anyone want to guess how long it'll be until we see MitD again? We're probably right next to a scene change though, so it's basically a coin flip right now.

[Crusher]

Anyone want to guess how long it'll be until we see MitD again? We're probably right next to a scene change though, so it's basically a coin flip right now.

I'm gonna go with 2 strips. As in, #1203.

Edit - halfeye, your presumption is accurate. I'll change your guess.

[Squire Doodad]

I just noticed something when reading the protean essay.

https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0701.html

Mitd says it's hard to both move and hold something at the same time. Is this a reference to how it's hard for a protean to both move and hold its form at the same time? Or perhaps as a more literal statement, he has trouble doing both of these because his move action is already taken up holding his form every turn.

Also, the rope he's holding in panel 9 of that strip is oddly kinked. This might just be an art error, or it suggests something very weird is going on with how mitd is holding the rope.

Broadly speaking I'd say the former is an event in favor of the Protean (but not against anything else), and the latter is just an art thing.

[Durkoala]

And Snorlax is a character trademarked by a massive company, most flaws have ways you can weasel around them, you just can't do that with Snorlax's problem (also he doesn't fit the Circus scene at all, but thats pretty minor in comparison), and yes, I've read the first few threads, much typing was spilled on figuring out if it was possible, and it wasn't.

Well, if MitD is a Snorlax and rendered in the games' style, he'd be a creature who wasn't represented as a stick figure and has shading and and three-dimensional appearance, which probably would appear otherworldly and 'hideous yet beautiful'...

[Squire Doodad]

Well, if MitD is a Snorlax and rendered in the games' style, he'd be a creature who wasn't represented as a stick figure and has shading and and three-dimensional appearance, which probably would appear otherworldly and 'hideous yet beautiful'...

Actually, the core Pokemon games were 2D at the time and would not feature 3D graphics in the towns until 2006, and not even 3D Pokemon in battle until Gen 6, over half a decade later. The spin-offs arguably had 3D graphics much earlier, but that hardly counts in this context.
A Snorlax would be quite bizarre in appearance in any case though.