MitD XIV: High In Protean

[Quebbster]

Remind me, the case for the Ha-Naga is "I want it to be and therefore any contradictory evidence can be discarded"?

There's the fluff text implying it has glowing eyes. Other than that, it's probably easier to check 3Power's own list to see what they consider the strong and weak points of the Ha-Naga and other candidates.

[3Power]

There's the fluff text implying it has glowing eyes. Other than that, it's probably easier to check 3Power's own list to see what they consider the strong and weak points of the Ha-Naga and other candidates.

For simplicity's sake:
Ha-Naga
27 STR
Wish
Earthquake
Horrifying abberation with beautiful human face.
Not listed as speaking any language.
Lack of arms suggests difficulty pulling.
Knowledge(Arcana/Religion/History) and Spellcraft ranks.
Damage Reduction
Two eyes
Beast-like
High CR
Usually Chaotic Evil

The primary criticisms of it have already been responded to in this thread, here, here, and here

[Squire Doodad]

For simplicity's sake:
Ha-Naga
27 STR
Wish
Earthquake
Horrifying abberation with beautiful human face.
Not listed as speaking any language.
Lack of arms suggests difficulty pulling.
Knowledge(Arcana/Religion/History) and Spellcraft ranks.
Damage Reduction
Two eyes
Beast-like
High CR
Usually Chaotic Evil

The primary criticisms of it have already been responded to in this thread, here, here, and here

I should point out that there's also the fact that the Ha-Naga is a Colossal creature if I'm not mistaken (so it wouldn't fit under the umbrella to an alarming degree), which further compounds the Strength problem if you want to shrink it down.
I wrote my own thing on the size issue here.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Remind me, the case for the Ha-Naga is "I want it to be and therefore any contradictory evidence can be discarded"?

Essentially, yes. It requires, at the very least, to ignore that it's not unrecognisable or even particularly revolting, it's not strong, it is hilariously oversized (being at least 50 feet taller than MitD and 125+ tons in weight), can't carry anything, speaks both common and abyssal, doesn't have feet to stomp with, and could have helped RC with raising undead. Literally the only thing it has going for it is it has access to Wish... but can't explain why it didn't Wish away the test goblin.

Grey Wolf

[Doug Lampert]

I should point out that there's also the fact that the Ha-Naga is a Colossal creature if I'm not mistaken (so it wouldn't fit under the umbrella to an alarming degree), which further compounds the Strength problem if you want to shrink it down.
I wrote my own thing on the size issue here.

I largely disagree with the logic given, because D&D monsters DO show multiple size categories of growth for those where we have any information on juvenile forms.

Human growth simply isn't that relevant when we have multiple counter examples.

If a 12 year old giant is juvenile, then it has 2 size categories of growth to go. A 12 year old dragon is very young, combat capable, and grows 3-4 size categories from there.

OTOH, my logic doesn't really help the Ha-naga, because there's typically about 8 points of strength lost per reduced size category. If the MitD is a juvenile giant, then we need one with 46 strength as an adult to have a 30 strength juvenile (hypothetically, the MitD could have rolled an 18 for strength, that gives +8, but it then still needs a 38 as an adult if two categories down). Scale down for dragons is split over age categories, but it typically totals 8 strength per size category.

So, I don't see human scaling as relevant, but monstrous scaling examples show us that smaller, younger versions are weaker. 30 strength is bottom end for the MitD, Roy is nearly that strong, and we don't see him knocking people through stone walls by hitting lightly.

If tMitD is smaller because he's younger, then he should probably also be weaker because he's younger and smaller, and the adult needs truly absurd strength.

[3Power]

I should point out that there's also the fact that the Ha-Naga is a Colossal creature if I'm not mistaken (so it wouldn't fit under the umbrella to an alarming degree), which further compounds the Strength problem if you want to shrink it down.
I wrote my own thing on the size issue here.

Size was addressed in the first link.

it's not unrecognisable

Subjective. We have no way of knowing what the average circus goer would recognize.

or even particularly revolting,

Subjective. We have no way of knowing what the average circus goer would find revolting. We do know that MitD had mixed reactions and that naga are aberrations though.

it's not strong

Subjective. It is stronger than a level 20 PC and we have seen gross exaggerations of STR in the comic before, such as the 10 STR housecat.

it is hilariously oversized (being at least 50 feet taller than MitD and 125+ tons in weight)

This is true, but several hints were given that MitD is smaller than normal, and any assumptions as to what rules Rich may or may have not used to accomplish that are subjective.

can't carry anything

Subjective. Naga are well established as using telekinetic spells to carry objects, and you can't simply assume they CAN'T use their tails.

, speaks both common and abyssal,

Falsehood. It is oddly, and strangely, not mentioned as speaking any language. In fact, the only difference between a ha-naga and a faerunian ha-naga is that a faerunian ha-naga does speak languages. In contrast, the Protean speaks and understands the language of every other creature in existance, as well as their own language which is ever changing, yet for some reason I'm the only one that ever brings up that little drawback.

doesn't have feet to stomp with

A stomp is merely the roach's subjective opinion of what MiTD is doing.

, and could have helped RC with raising undead.

The seriousness and implications of RC's comment are subjective.

Literally the only thing it has going for it is it has access to Wish... but can't explain why it didn't Wish away the test goblin.

Falsehood. Several explanations for that scene have already been presented and even re-linked in my previous post. The most noteworthy of which is the precedent for emotion-based sorcerous manifestation established by Xykon.

If tMitD is smaller because he's younger, then he should probably also be weaker because he's younger and smaller, and the adult needs truly absurd strength.

Or he could just have his adult strength because his species "doesn't have stats for various stages of growth."

[Quebbster]

Subjective. We have no way of knowing what the average circus goer would recognize.

Subjective. We have no way of knowing what the average circus goer would find revolting. We do know that MitD had mixed reactions and that naga are aberrations though.

We now do know that Belkar knows what a naga is though (or at least that they don't have toenails). He is not exactly the studious type, so that implies a naga is not a terribly obscure monster.
Also, the guy in the wizard robes in the audience says he has "never seen anything like it before". Even if he is not familiar with the naga he would probably be familiar with regular snakes at least.

Falsehood. It is oddly, and strangely, not mentioned as speaking any language. In fact, the only difference between a ha-naga and a faerunian ha-naga is that a faerunian ha-naga does speak languages. In contrast, the Protean speaks and understands the language of every other creature in existance, as well as their own language which is ever changing, yet for some reason I'm the only one that ever brings up that little drawback.

Do you have a source for this? I vaguely recall it being debated before but I don't recall the exact wordings referenced. I only have access to what is posted online and that doesn't mention anything about languages that I can find.

A stomp is merely the roach's subjective opinion of what MiTD is doing.

And the sound effect illustrating what the MitD is doing to create the earthquake

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Do you have a source for this? I vaguely recall it being debated before but I don't recall the exact wordings referenced. I only have access to what is posted online and that doesn't mention anything about languages that I can find.

On the Ha-Naga side, D20 doesn't list languages for any monster (at least in any of the epic monsters that definitely can talk that I bothered to check - netiher epic dragons nor titans have languages listed, and the claim they too can't talk is obviously ridiculous in the face of it), so his claim they have none is suspect, given that both nagas and ha-nagas elsewhere in less-reliable webpages do have those two listed.

On the protean side, pretty much every page I can find copy-pastes the same description for their language, "Even their language is mutable, evolving so quickly that few outsiders can understand it without magical aid. ". I.e. to outsiders, it is nonsense sounds, so it is surprising MitD is talking sense, and in common no less.

Grey Wolf

[Jasdoif]

On the Ha-Naga side, D20 doesn't list languages for any monster (at least in any of the epic monsters that definitely can talk that I bothered to check - netiher epic dragons nor titans have languages listed, and the claim they too can't talk is obviously ridiculous in the face of it), so his claim they have none is suspect, given that both nagas and ha-nagas elsewhere in less-reliable webpages do have those two listed.

The epic dragons page says right at the top, "All epic dragons speak Draconic"; and elder titans have the Polyglot feat so they can speak/read/write all languages.

Not mentioning these things directly in each monster entry is, of course, bad horrible horribad presentation straight out of the 3.0 Epic Level Handbook; and the Ha-Naga's lack of a "X do not speak" line like yrthak have, means it's unclear whether Ha-Naga intentionally don't speak or whether this was an editing oversight...particularly since the standard nagas in the 3.0 SRD don't have listed languages either.

[Doug Lampert]

The epic dragons page says right at the top, "All epic dragons speak Draconic"; and elder titans have the Polyglot feat so they can speak/read/write all languages.

Not mentioning these things directly in each monster entry is, of course, bad horrible horribad presentation straight out of the 3.0 Epic Level Handbook; and the Ha-Naga's lack of a "X do not speak" line like yrthak have, means it's unclear whether Ha-Naga intentionally don't speak or whether this was an editing oversight...particularly since the standard nagas in the 3.0 SRD don't have listed languages either.

3.5 SRD, Monsters, Reading the Entries includes: "Intelligence: A creature can speak all the languages mentioned in its description, plus one additional language per point of Intelligence bonus. Any creature with an Intelligence score of 3 or higher understands at least one language (Common, unless noted otherwise)."

OotS uses 3.5 rules.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

3.5 SRD, Monsters, Reading the Entries includes: "Intelligence: A creature can speak all the languages mentioned in its description, plus one additional language per point of Intelligence bonus. Any creature with an Intelligence score of 3 or higher understands at least one language (Common, unless noted otherwise)."

(link)

Although this opens a whole new can of worms. It seems that the behemoth eagle speaks 3 languages?

GW

[Jasdoif]

Although this opens a whole new can of worms.

Starting with where restrictions on bonus languages are supposed to tie in; followed by what it's supposed to mean if a list isn't supplied because an entry doesn't have an "X as characters" section; followed by "wait, does this mean MitD' species' average Int is 11 or less, because otherwise they'd be assumed to be able to speak a language so it wouldn't surprise the game hunters that he can speak"?

[Grey_Wolf_c]

followed by "wait, does this mean MitD' species' average Int is 11 or less, because otherwise they'd be assumed to be able to speak a language so it wouldn't surprise the game hunters that he can speak"?

Look, my two top guesses (IMnpHO) have iron clad reasons why it'd be surprising they talked and in common no less regardless of how many languages they can actually speak, so I'm all for this now. On this irrelevant hill I shall plant my flag!

Grey Wolf

[Squire Doodad]

(link)

Although this opens a whole new can of worms. It seems that the behemoth eagle speaks 3 languages?

GW

Avian, Common and Esperanto

On a more serious note, it would make sense if different cultures of Behemoth Eagle speak different languages and any given one understands two nearby dialects, but that's a game-by-game matter and not one that would come into play here.

[ArkenBrony]

(link)

Although this opens a whole new can of worms. It seems that the behemoth eagle speaks 3 languages?

GW

specifically, it says per modifier. so from int 3-11 it'll have one, and at 12 it gains a second

[Squire Doodad]

specifically, it says per modifier. so from int 3-11 it'll have one, and at 12 it gains a second

Does this mean bilingual people are automatically a base INT 12 or higher

[Grey_Wolf_c]

specifically, it says per modifier. so from int 3-11 it'll have one, and at 12 it gains a second

No, it says per point of Intelligence bonus. 12 gives you one point of bonus, and you get another every two intelligence points; 17 int has a +3 bonus.

GW

[b_jonas]

I conclude that a Half-Green-Dragon Half-Green-Dragon Half-Green-Dragon Half-Green-Dragon Half-Green-Dragon Young Adult Green Dragon speaks a dozen languages, including Common, but has a strong speech impediment because of its grotesque facial features and exaggerated exaggerated exaggerated exaggerated exaggerated teeth.

Also look out, the MitD will appear in a strip very soon (after #1203 I actually expected to see him in #1204), at which point this thread will explode even if the MitD does nothing but stand in silence next to Xykon or Redcloak.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I conclude that a Half-Green-Dragon Half-Green-Dragon Half-Green-Dragon Half-Green-Dragon Half-Green-Dragon Young Adult Green Dragon speaks a dozen languages, including Common, but has a strong speech impediment because of its grotesque facial features and exaggerated exaggerated exaggerated exaggerated exaggerated teeth.

To quote Many a True Nerd, this eminently reasonable.

GW

[Peelee]

Look, my two top guesses (IMnpHO) have iron clad reasons why it'd be surprising they talked and in common no less regardless of how many languages they can actually speak, so I'm all for this now. On this irrelevant hill I shall plant my flag!

Grey Wolf

[a deep, resonant voice in the sky announces "FLAG TAKEN" as Peelee scoots off back to his base in Blood Gulch]

I conclude that a Half-Green-Dragon Half-Green-Dragon Half-Green-Dragon Half-Green-Dragon Half-Green-Dragon Young Adult Green Dragon speaks a dozen languages, including Common, but has a strong speech impediment because of its grotesque facial features and exaggerated exaggerated exaggerated exaggerated exaggerated teeth.

I think the speech impediment is also due to it trying to speak 6 dialects of Common all at once.

[3Power]

We now do know that Belkar knows what a naga is though (or at least that they don't have toenails). He is not exactly the studious type, so that implies a naga is not a terribly obscure monster.
Also, the guy in the wizard robes in the audience says he has "never seen anything like it before". Even if he is not familiar with the naga he would probably be familiar with regular snakes at least.

Every monster is made up of familiar parts from ordinary creatures. It's inherently difficult, if not impossible to come up with a monster not based on any pre-existing creature. If we follow this logic there's nothing weird about a displacer beast because it's basically a cat, nor an illithid because it's basically an octopus, or a human. Either or.

Do you have a source for this? I vaguely recall it being debated before but I don't recall the exact wordings referenced. I only have access to what is posted online and that doesn't mention anything about languages that I can find.

Epic level handbook.

On the Ha-Naga side, D20 doesn't list languages for any monster (at least in any of the epic monsters that definitely can talk that I bothered to check - netiher epic dragons nor titans have languages listed, and the claim they too can't talk is obviously ridiculous in the face of it),

As already stated by other users, this is a falsehood. Epic dragons all speak draconic and elder titans have both the polyglot feat and speak language(any five). Meanwhile the Ha-naga is missing any sort of information about spoken languages in:
A. The epic level handbook.
B. The 3.5 update for epic level handbook
C. The SRD
And was only ever corrected in Serpent Kingdoms, with the faerunian ha-naga.

so his claim they have none is suspect, given that both nagas and ha-nagas elsewhere in less-reliable webpages do have those two listed.

Sources, if you please.

On the protean side, pretty much every page I can find copy-pastes the same description for their language, "Even their language is mutable, evolving so quickly that few outsiders can understand it without magical aid. ". I.e. to outsiders, it is nonsense sounds, so it is surprising MitD is talking sense, and in common no less.

Once again, the verbatim text from the Epic Level Handbook reads:

Hagunemnons have an ever-evolving language that changes so quickly that only another hagunemnon can understand it. They can speak and understand the language of any other creature.

Not mentioning these things directly in each monster entry is, of course, bad horrible horribad presentation straight out of the 3.0 Epic Level Handbook; and the Ha-Naga's lack of a "X do not speak" line like yrthak have, means it's unclear whether Ha-Naga intentionally don't speak or whether this was an editing oversight...particularly since the standard nagas in the 3.0 SRD don't have listed languages either.

I'm of the opinion that it's an oversight, but the fact that the entire creature was reprinted in Serpent Kingdoms as the Faerunian Ha-naga with the language as the only change is WEIRD. (Actually at this point I decided to take another look and discovered that it has 4 more HD and as such has two more feats, a few more/different skills and the Eschew materials feat as a bonus feat, which is something all the 3.5 naga also have.)

[b_jonas]

Every monster is made up of familiar parts from ordinary creatures.

Ah yes. Now I'm reminded of #322, where Vaarsuvius meets an owlbear, and explains what a weird mixed up creature it is. It might be a riff on the stories (I don't know if they're true) on how when pioneers from Australia first sent the hide of a platypus home to Europe, people thought at first that it was a fake and such an animal didn't exist. The Phineas and Ferb tv show episode "Misperceived Monotreme" even has someone comment "It looks like a beaver-duck." about a platypus. A platypus, made from parts of a beaver, a mole, and a duck, would work great as a monster invented for D&D. A circus might even exhibit one in a freak show, if they find a way to feed it and keep it alive, which is probably much easier in the D&D world than in the real world.

[Fyraltari]

A platypus, made from parts of a beaver, a mole, and a duck

And part ninja. Let’s not forget the little buggers have poison needles on their ankle because at this point why even bother to be realistic?

[Quebbster]

Every monster is made up of familiar parts from ordinary creatures. It's inherently difficult, if not impossible to come up with a monster not based on any pre-existing creature. If we follow this logic there's nothing weird about a displacer beast because it's basically a cat, nor an illithid because it's basically an octopus, or a human. Either or.

That's one of the advantages of a Protean, it looks a lot weirder than a platypus.

[lio45]

For simplicity's sake:
Ha-Naga
27 STR
Wish
Earthquake
Horrifying abberation with beautiful human face.
Not listed as speaking any language.
Lack of arms suggests difficulty pulling.
Knowledge(Arcana/Religion/History) and Spellcraft ranks.
Damage Reduction
Two eyes
Beast-like
High CR
Usually Chaotic Evil

The primary criticisms of it have already been responded to in this thread, here, here, and here

Sure, but 27 STR (inacceptably low) is a devastating flaw - one that some (many) would consider a deal-breaker.

Not all criteria are equal. A creature that's not fitting that well on a few counts is still a much better overall contender than one that just does not fit at all something we see in the comic, even if it fits everything else really well.

A Baby Ha-Naga (where Adult of Species = STR of 27) would not have been portrayed by Rich as effortlessly knocking Miko and Windstriker through a stone wall like that. No ifs and buts about this.

[Quebbster]

Sure, but 27 STR (inacceptably low) is a devastating flaw - one that some (many) would consider a deal-breaker.

Not all criteria are equal. A creature that's not fitting that well on a few counts is still a much better overall contender than one that just does not fit at all something we see in the comic, even if it fits everything else really well.

A Baby Ha-Naga (where Adult of Species = STR of 27) would not have been portrayed by Rich as effortlessly knocking Miko and Windstriker through a stone wall like that. No ifs and buts about this.

This has been debated to death already. A lot of people feel even a normal-sized Ha-Naga is too weak to be the MitD and that shrinking it down several size categories would weaken it further. 3Power disagrees, and it seems very unlikely their position in the matter can be swayed. No real point to keep banging your head against that particular wall.

[Mightymosy]

I think strength required is hard to estimate.

Apart from the tower scene and Scruffy hitting the dog, there is Roy throwing the elder's spear into the wall and climbing on it.

What do you guys think would be an adequate strength for this.

I mean, you need that spear to STICK in a Wall, enough that an adult in metal Armour can climb.

I don't know if a machine (a spear shooting machine) designed exactly for that purpose could make that work.

My point is: the giant uses "comic physics" every now and then, not sure if calculating numbers from this is turning out too exact.

Are there any pictures of Ha Nagas that are disgusting?
Yeah I know that's subjective, but the ones I Google were juuust snakes.
Anything a little more disgusting?

[Grey_Wolf_c]

My point is: the giant uses "comic physics" every now and then, not sure if calculating numbers from this is turning out too exact.

We are not trying to be exact. We are, by consensus, using an arbitrary number (30) as a cut-off point to give a very generous lower limit to the strength displayed by MitD in the Tower Scene. It serves a simple purpose: to limit the number of creatures in consideration for the FBS list, and it does so as well as most of the other criteria: enough creatures fail that test it keeps the numbers in the FBS showcase low.

As I have often remarked, the purpose of the FBS rules are simply that: to highlight that there are strong creatures, and there are creatures with some form of teleportation, there are human-sized-ish creatures, and there are disgusting creatures... but there is surprisingly little overlap between all four, and that overlap has been at the core of the search space for this thread. Those wanting to look for further candidates then know to look for monsters that fulfil these (and the other) characteristics, and, hopefully in most cases it succeeds.

Are there any pictures of Ha Nagas that are disgusting?
Yeah I know that's subjective, but the ones I Google were juuust snakes.
Anything a little more disgusting?

Not that I have been able to find. When the monster description is "woman's face atop a snake body", I wouldn't even know where you'd make it disgusting. Snakes are remarkably beautiful, patterned and clean, creatures, and I suppose the women's face could be ugly, but there's not much room to make a human face truly disgusting.

Grey Wolf

[Throknor]

Is there a forum hitch, or did I fall through a time vortex? If the latter I need to go invest in Zoom and stock up on some Nintendo Switches...

[3Power]

As I have often remarked, the purpose of the FBS rules are simply that: to highlight that there are strong creatures, and there are creatures with some form of teleportation, there are human-sized-ish creatures, and there are disgusting creatures... but there is surprisingly little overlap between all four, and that overlap has been at the core of the search space for this thread. Those wanting to look for further candidates then know to look for monsters that fulfil these (and the other) characteristics, and, hopefully in most cases it succeeds.

I am in agreement with the general sentiment of this statement but I tend to put more weight on the teleportation factor than STR (which fluctuates wildly) appearance (which we have gotten contradictory opinions on) and size (which it has been implied we should ignore.) I don't buy into the escape spell being anything less than a wish-equivalent spell and I think that should be the starting point for all potential candidates.

Not that I have been able to find. When the monster description is "woman's face atop a snake body", I wouldn't even know where you'd make it disgusting. Snakes are remarkably beautiful, patterned and clean, creatures, and I suppose the women's face could be ugly, but there's not much room to make a human face truly disgusting.

I can't debate personal preference, I can only show how the possibility for contrary opinions exists.

Are there any pictures of Ha Nagas that are disgusting?
Yeah I know that's subjective, but the ones I Google were juuust snakes.
Anything a little more disgusting?

There are only two pictures of the ha-naga (which is more than most creatures). But do me a favor and watch this.

I'm just trying to demonstrate how the possibility for an unsettling reaction to a snake with a face exists.