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  1. - Top - End - #211
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    Default Re: MitD XIV: High In Protean

    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    If any creature gets several essays, the different authors should just form a commitee and redact a comprehensive essay together. Nothing ever goes wrong with commitees.
    Look, I'm not saying that I wouldn't love watching that go down... and sell tickets... and watch the mods go ballistic and start red-texting everything in sight. But still, it may not turn out to be the best of ideas?

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    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
    Ceterum autem censeo Hilgya malefica est

  2. - Top - End - #212
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    Default Re: MitD XIV: High In Protean

    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    OK, that's, what, the third time we've directed someone to Ruck's essay in the last two pages? That's it, I'm adding a link to it to the Protean entry. And I'm like two more linkings away to just asking him to rename his post "section 7"

    ETA: The last bit, to be clear, is a bit tongue in cheek. But i suppose we could have a "Section 7 - Essays" that are more in-depth than my FAQs, with full editorial control on whomever penned them and I'd just paste them in there as needed. Although on the other hand, I don't want to be in a situation where I get five different essays for the same creature, so maybe on reflection not.

    Grey Wolf
    I think that's a neat idea, and reading Ruck's essay made me rethink my decision to go from predicting a Protean to a Slaad. It's a really good fit. Also, if we are doing essays now, I call the Tarraesque.


    I do have one question about part of Ruck's essay:

    Quote Originally Posted by Ruck View Post


    While “timely shapeshift into the exact appropriate creature” might require rolling a natural 20 in a real game of D&D, OOTS is a story. In this story, the unlikely result will happen if it proves best for the story (and I don’t just mean in the sense that Elan believes “a one-in-a-million chance is a sure thing,” but also in what Rich has said himself about writing the story). It may be unlikely, but it is possible without changing the rules of how a Protean works in 3.5.
    Why would a timely shapeshift require rolling a natural 20? I'm reading the SRD and I don't see that part anywhere:

    Quote Originally Posted by SRD
    A protean can assume the shape of any combination of physical nondeific creatures at the same time as a free action. In fact, a protean’s form constantly boils, and it requires a move-equivalent action each round for a protean to maintain a certain shape (even if that shape is a combination of several shapes). Whatever its present form, the protean retains all its own special qualities. Plus, it gains the advantage of up to four extraordinary abilities from the forms it mimics (but not spell-like or supernatural powers). The assumed form can be no smaller than a flea and no larger than 200 feet in its largest dimension (make sure to take into account rules for reach and size modifiers to AC and melee attacks). Incorporeal traits can also be assumed, which counts as a single extraordinary ability. If a hagunemnon assumes a partial form that confers an extraordinary ability already possessed by the creature, only the better of the two abilities is retained. No matter its form, the protean can never make more than five attacks using a full-round action. However, it may substitute a melee attack form for one of its slam attacks, using its own base attack bonus and Strength modifier to damage, but dealing base damage appropriate to the attack type.
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  3. - Top - End - #213
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    Default Re: MitD XIV: High In Protean

    Quote Originally Posted by littlebum2002 View Post

    I do have one question about part of Ruck's essay:



    Why would a timely shapeshift require rolling a natural 20? I'm reading the SRD and I don't see that part anywhere:
    I'm not Ruck (obviously) but I can guess that this
    Quote Originally Posted by Ruck View Post
    I’m not a D&D player, a couple of the computer game adaptations aside. I don’t know the game like other people do.
    explains this

    Quote Originally Posted by Ruck View Post
    While “timely shapeshift into the exact appropriate creature” might require rolling a natural 20 in a real game of D&D

    Emphasis mine.

    I don't play D&D either and if asked wether a constantly shapeshifting creature could shape into the one creature whose abilities it needs right now my answer would have been "I dunno but I'm guessing at worst it would require a Nat20."
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  4. - Top - End - #214
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    Default Re: MitD XIV: High In Protean

    Quote Originally Posted by littlebum2002 View Post
    I think that's a neat idea
    Seriously, it is not. It is fine for each individual to have strong opinions about a creature's fitness, but it is a terrible idea to promote some of those into the OP. I try to remove as much bias as possible from OP, and this essay is anything but, no matter how much I like it. Yes, it incorporates a lot of solid facts, but what weaves it together is the personal opinion of Ruck. I do not want to be in a position where I have to incorporate an essay telling me how well the psammead fits, so I can't add one for the protean. Or worse, if I end up, as I mentioned, with 5 essays about any one creature, in various stages of overlap and opposition to each other, five-colour-MtG style. That'd turn me from curator to editor, and that's way too much.

    If you want to write an essay, go ahead. If we find it useful and oft-referenced, I can link it in the OP. But the essays themselves do not belong to the OP.

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    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
    Ceterum autem censeo Hilgya malefica est

  5. - Top - End - #215
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    Default Re: MitD XIV: High In Protean

    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    Metronome, as listed in 3c.

    Grey Wolf
    Wow, I didn't remember Snorlax has that level of detail in 3c! I can now see that my post was a bit redundant.

    One thing I've noticed since: Hello Kitty most definitely has no mouth, while the little heads on MitD's umbrella do have mouths which also seem to have teeth at both ends.

    Can we add to Section 3c "MitD has an umbrella of little Hello Snorlax heads" among the pros for Snorlax...? ;) ;)
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  6. - Top - End - #216
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    Default Re: MitD XIV: High In Protean

    Quote Originally Posted by lio45 View Post
    Wow, I didn't remember Snorlax has that level of detail in 3c! I can now see that my post was a bit redundant.

    One thing I've noticed since: Hello Kitty most definitely has no mouth, while the little heads on MitD's umbrella do have mouths which also seem to have teeth at both ends.

    Can we add to Section 3c "MitD has an umbrella of little Hello Snorlax heads" among the pros for Snorlax...? ;) ;)
    Hello Kitty does have whiskers though, and I think that is what the pink umbrella heads are supposed to have.
    When the duckie umbrella is introduced, one of the roaches says "Goodbye Kitty, I guess". That at least implies the old umbrella was supposed to be a Hello Kitty umbrella.

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    Default Re: MitD XIV: High In Protean

    I always figured it was an "evil" Hello Kitty, really. To fit with the MitD's innocence and the fact that he is on Team Evil.
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    Default Re: MitD XIV: High In Protean

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    I always figured it was an "evil" Hello Kitty, really. To fit with the MitD's innocence and the fact that he is on Team Evil.
    Why, yes it is a cat.
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    Default Re: MitD XIV: High In Protean

    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    Why, yes it is a cat.
    Erebus, Primordial Deity of Darkness, is looking down upon you from kitty heaven with sadness.

    I can provide pictures of his sad face, if you like, so you can imagine it better. It is rare I invoke his full name, but it seemed appropriate here. Kitty hater.
    Last edited by Peelee; 2020-06-17 at 09:15 AM.
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    Default Re: MitD XIV: High In Protean

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Erebus, Primordial Deity of Darkness, is looking down upon you from kitty heaven with sadness.

    I can provide pictures of his sad face, if you like, so you can imagine it better. It is rare I invoke his full name, but it seemed appropriate here. Kitty hater.
    I wouldn't be imagining anything if you showed me now, would I?
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    Default Re: MitD XIV: High In Protean

    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    I wouldn't be imagining anything if you showed me now, would I?
    Well, it would be Sad Erebus for other reasons, not Sad Erebus looking down on you disapprovingly from the clouds.
    Last edited by Peelee; 2020-06-17 at 09:56 AM.
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    Default Re: MitD XIV: High In Protean

    Quote Originally Posted by 3Power View Post
    I dunno guys, I don't look at OOTS and see a comic actively trying to keep strength values constant, I see the strength being whatever it needs to be to serve the narrative point of the moment.
    Well, again, you can convince yourself the evidence doesn't matter in order to argue for your favorite, but I don't think we're going to get to what the MITD actually is this way.

    Quote Originally Posted by Thales View Post
    I'd like to register my prediction that the MitD is a Protean. I'd moreover hazard a guess that when we first see it out from the darkness, if we do so with it dramatically casting down the umbrella, it will be assuming the shape of O-Chul. I'm probably wrong on that latter prediction, but I think it fits with what we've seen.
    Ooooh, I like it. I'm not sure if that's what he'll do, but I like the thinking behind it-- the Protean can be whatever he wants to be; MITD assumes the form of the only person he knows who is truly a good friend and a good man.

    Quote Originally Posted by littlebum2002 View Post
    Why would a timely shapeshift require rolling a natural 20? I'm reading the SRD and I don't see that part anywhere:
    Again, I'm not a D&D player; this was simply to make a point to people who thought it too unlikely the Protean could partial-shapeshift into the right creature for the Escape scene.

    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    OK, that's, what, the third time we've directed someone to Ruck's essay in the last two pages? That's it, I'm adding a link to it to the Protean entry. And I'm like two more linkings away to just asking him to rename his post "section 7"
    Ha! But, yeah, when people keep making the same arguments that were already countered there, it's probably a good idea.

    I still leave open the question to anyone who doesn't like the Protean for the MITD, what they think is a better fit and why.

  13. - Top - End - #223
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    Default Re: MitD XIV: High In Protean

    Quote Originally Posted by Ruck View Post
    I still leave open the question to anyone who doesn't like the Protean for the MITD, what they think is a better fit and why.
    None of the FBS candidates are a good fit.
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    Default Re: MitD XIV: High In Protean

    Quote Originally Posted by Jasdoif View Post
    None of the FBS candidates are a good fit.
    I generally agree, which is why my vote is for the one that is the best fit.

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    Default Re: MitD XIV: High In Protean

    Quote Originally Posted by Jasdoif View Post
    None of the FBS candidates are a good fit.
    I dunno, I think the ANB fits pretty much everything doesn't it? The only issue is timing. Has the 2nd edition ANB been checked to see if it fits? If so that might kill that problem, too.
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    Default Re: MitD XIV: High In Protean

    Quote Originally Posted by Quebbster View Post
    As Darth Paul mentioned earlier on this page, it could keep a specific shape if it wanted to.
    Cite?

    The ELH p196 says it always appears in flux, boiling with possibility and is denied stability. So it can't keep a specific shape.

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    Default Re: MitD XIV: High In Protean

    Quote Originally Posted by littlebum2002 View Post
    I dunno, I think the ANB fits pretty much everything doesn't it?
    Yes, the ANB and Uvuudaum are near perfect fits, especially if you admit templates - Phrenic and Dungeonbred come to mind.

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    Default Re: MitD XIV: High In Protean

    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    Why, yes it is a cat.
    It is not. Apparently it’s canon that Hello Kitty is actually NOT a cat, it’s in fact a Japanese girl who enjoys dressing up like a cat.
    "You are what you do. Choose again and change." - Miles Vorkosigan

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    Default Re: MitD XIV: High In Protean

    Quote Originally Posted by Quartz View Post
    Yes, the ANB and Uvuudaum are near perfect fits, especially if you admit templates - Phrenic and Dungeonbred come to mind.
    Quote Originally Posted by littlebum2002 View Post
    I dunno, I think the ANB fits pretty much everything doesn't it? The only issue is timing. Has the 2nd edition ANB been checked to see if it fits? If so that might kill that problem, too.
    My problems with them is that while they both fit decently enough, neither of them have many pros over the Protean, both of them fit both the tower and circus scenes worse (because the Protean has both more strength and is basically a perfect fit for the circus scene), and I’d argue that the Protean could fit the escape scene a bit better because it’s teleport spell is just as good as theirs and comes with an explanation for why he couldn’t reproduce it later. The Uvuuduam also has the biggest con the Protean has but worse and the confusion aura complicates a lot of thing while the ANB has the probably disqualifying thing of it being (IMO) pretty implausible that Rich would have been given the ANB months early and trusted it to be final enough to use it for his comic.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Schroeswald View Post
    I recognize that Conservation of Detail is Overrated, but I find the event that I am using as evidence for my theory above important enough/given enough focus to qualify for what I call Elan’s Exception, “Who wastes perfectly good foreshadowing like that?”. Also I have never correctly predicted any event in any piece of media so take this theory with a grain of salt (I call this Peelee’s Ye Old Reminder).

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    Default Re: MitD XIV: High In Protean

    Quote Originally Posted by Ruck View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Jasdoif View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Ruck View Post
    I still leave open the question to anyone who doesn't like the Protean for the MITD, what they think is a better fit and why.
    None of the FBS candidates are a good fit.
    I generally agree, which is why my vote is for the one that is the best fit.
    Yes. The question you're leaving open isn't about what fits the MitD; but merely which failure to fit the MitD is the least abject.


    This is important to note, because this leads straight to the nature of the MitD threads: Grey_Wolf_c has basically chosen to oversee a research paper where research is hamstrung maimed crippled, because the only primary source (The Giant) has a vested interest in not providing clear answers. So the only viable approach is to compare secondary sources (entries from monster manuals, typically) against a vague outline...which means subjectively stringing/streching/excising together pieces from the primary source, which means proposals are largely a product of their proposers' imaginations, which means proposers get more emotionally invested in their proposals than is readily apparent, which means many proposers get unduly defensive over criticsm, which means these threads are prone to bouts of fruitless drama. (Seriously, everyone remember to cut Grey Wolf some slack in these threads.)

    More directly on point, finding that secondary source is the name of the game....The same type of game that, if people stop looking for a good secondary source, fosters conspiracy theories and epileptic trees. Coming up with oddball theories is fun, to be sure; but when there's (theoretically) an actual answer to be found, it gets too close to being unable to see the forest for the trees.

    I, for one, don't think the MitD's species has been identified in these threads yet...or, perhaps, that the MitD relies on some dynamic option (templates, most likely) that'll simultaneously make perfect sense at the reveal and result in a meaningless morass of applying it to anything if the thread attempted to work backwards from them...which is why the thread doesn't attempt to work backwards from them.
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    Default Re: MitD XIV: High In Protean

    Quote Originally Posted by Quartz View Post
    Cite?

    The ELH p196 says it always appears in flux, boiling with possibility and is denied stability. So it can't keep a specific shape.
    Again: a protean can use a move action to retain its shape.

    Quote Originally Posted by Quartz View Post
    Yes, the ANB and Uvuudaum are near perfect fits, especially if you admit templates - Phrenic and Dungeonbred come to mind.
    Ok, then Protean with Pseudonatural to explain his looks. Done.

    The trouble with templates is that they apply across the board. You can't very well defend that "only creature X gets to invoke templates", and therefore templates are a crutch to eliminate clues from consideration. Creature X doesn't quite have the right look? Pseudonatural. Needs a teleport? Phrenic. Not powerful enough? Paragon. Etc. Which is why I was able to turn a potted plant into an entry for MitD that checked all the boxes.

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    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
    Ceterum autem censeo Hilgya malefica est

  22. - Top - End - #232
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    Default Re: MitD XIV: High In Protean

    I'm now guessing a Pseudonatural Phrenic Protean.

    (Maybe not, Crusher, since I have no real idea what either of those mean in game terms, and I don't want anyone to expend the page space explaining it to me. I'm already satisfied with my official guess of Protean.)

    And although I can't speak for Ruck, if I may comment on the "roll a 20" concept as follows:

    Yes, such a shapeshift into exactly the right form, at exactly the right moment, would be an incredibly lucky coincidence, somewhere along the lines of Haley rolling a natural 20 to shoot a Talisman off Nale's neck from 200 feet away in the Dungeon of Dorukan. And yet, we've already seen that happen. Because the fact is, this is Rich Burlew's story, and if he wants Haley to roll a 20, then roll a 20 she does; and if he wants a Protean to shift into a form that has the Teleport power, that's what will happen. Because, however unlikely we may think it, it's in the service of the story. That's what matters, and that's all that really matters.

    Probably Ruck wouldn't get quite so carried away as I did just then, but I hope that's the same basic point.
    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    Also, everything Darth Paul just said.
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    Default Re: MitD XIV: High In Protean

    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    Which is why I was able to turn a potted plant into an entry for MitD that checked all the boxes.
    No, no, that's getting the causality backward, you were able to turn a potted plant into an entry of the MitD because THAT's WHAT IT IS. It just happens that the same template stack could be applied to almost anything else with the same effect.

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    Default Re: MitD XIV: High In Protean

    Quote Originally Posted by Darth Paul View Post
    I don't want anyone to expend the page space explaining it to me.
    Well, tough luck. I have to justify my paycheck somehow.

    Phrenic: this monster has psychic powers.
    Pseudonatural: this monster is in fact a lovecraftian horror that just looks like the base creature. But at any moment it can become a sanity-destroying abomination from beyond the stars.

    ETA: You can also see the write-ups of each of the prominent templates proposed in section 2d, BTW

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    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
    Ceterum autem censeo Hilgya malefica est

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    Default Re: MitD XIV: High In Protean

    Quote Originally Posted by Crusher View Post
    It is not. Apparently it’s canon that Hello Kitty is actually NOT a cat, it’s in fact a Japanese girl who enjoys dressing up like a cat.
    Hello Kitty isn't the only one who's cat-like:
    Quote Originally Posted by wikipedia on Snorlax
    However, Snorlax has also received a mixed reception. USA Today described it as "a cat with a glandular disorder", whereas GameSpy has described it as "downright silly".
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    Default Re: MitD XIV: High In Protean

    Quote Originally Posted by Darth Paul View Post
    Yes, such a shapeshift into exactly the right form, at exactly the right moment, would be an incredibly lucky coincidence, somewhere along the lines of Haley rolling a natural 20 to shoot a Talisman off Nale's neck from 200 feet away in the Dungeon of Dorukan. Because the fact is, this is Rich Burlew's story, and if he wants Haley to roll a 20, then roll a 20 she does; and if he wants a Protean to shift into a form that has the Teleport power, that's what will happen. Because, however unlikely we may think it, it's in the service of the story. That's what matters, and that's all that really matters.
    Many times in the sci-fi world, mental powers are a curious blend of conscious and subconscious desires. If the MitD truly doesn't fully understand who and what he is (as his dialogue suggests), his form would be adapting more primarily to his *subconscious* wishes. This would explain why he is always maintaining his 'face' to fit in, and how he was able to partially shift into the necessary creature to enact the escape scene. He desperately wants O'chul to escape, and even though he doesn't have much conscious control over his abilities, his sheer force of desire acted in that moment (which would also explain why he couldn't repeat it.)

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    Default Re: MitD XIV: High In Protean

    Quote Originally Posted by littlebum2002 View Post
    I dunno, I think the ANB fits pretty much everything doesn't it?
    No. Problems I see with it after a (new) cursory review:

    • As cited, the ANB block was posted in 2005, for consideration in the next revision of Terrors of Athas. Near as I can determine, that revision never happened; the latest reference I could find still has a 2004 copyright date (and refers to the MM2 nightmare beast, precisely what the ANB was supposed to improve upon). This particular "Athasian" Nightmare Beast never saw the light of day, seriously undercutting the ability to "guess" it.
    • It has psi-like abilities; which necessitates the world having psionics...so Redcloak should already have known psionics were in use.
    • It's 20 feet tall, and 40 feet long (and has the 10-foot reach of a long Huge creature instead of the 15-foot reach of a tall Huge creature). Scaling its length down enough to fit in the box leads to questions about its height.
    • Its eyes are explicitly crimson. I know glossing over MitD's eyes is popular, but needing to gloss over one of its few well-defined characteristics is problematic at best.
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  28. - Top - End - #238
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    Default Re: MitD XIV: High In Protean

    Quote Originally Posted by Jasdoif View Post
    No. Problems I see with it after a (new) cursory review:

    • As cited, the ANB block was posted in 2005, for consideration in the next revision of Terrors of Athas. Near as I can determine, that revision never happened; the latest reference I could find still has a 2004 copyright date (and refers to the MM2 nightmare beast, precisely what the ANB was supposed to improve upon). This particular "Athasian" Nightmare Beast never saw the light of day, seriously undercutting the ability to "guess" it.
    • It has psi-like abilities; which necessitates the world having psionics...so Redcloak should already have known psionics were in use.
    • It's 20 feet tall, and 40 feet long (and has the 10-foot reach of a long Huge creature instead of the 15-foot reach of a tall Huge creature). Scaling its length down enough to fit in the box leads to questions about its height.
    • Its eyes are explicitly crimson. I know glossing over MitD's eyes is popular, but needing to gloss over one of its few well-defined characteristics is problematic at best.
    Another huge problem for the ANB is its unacceptably low strength.

    If we're going to accept that ~30 STR is okay for the Tower Scene, then I'll take the (yellow-eyed!) Ha-Naga over the ANB any day.
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  29. - Top - End - #239
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    Default Re: MitD XIV: High In Protean

    Quote Originally Posted by Jasdoif View Post
    Yes. The question you're leaving open isn't about what fits the MitD; but merely which failure to fit the MitD is the least abject.


    This is important to note, because this leads straight to the nature of the MitD threads: Grey_Wolf_c has basically chosen to oversee a research paper where research is hamstrung maimed crippled, because the only primary source (The Giant) has a vested interest in not providing clear answers. So the only viable approach is to compare secondary sources (entries from monster manuals, typically) against a vague outline...which means subjectively stringing/streching/excising together pieces from the primary source, which means proposals are largely a product of their proposers' imaginations, which means proposers get more emotionally invested in their proposals than is readily apparent, which means many proposers get unduly defensive over criticsm, which means these threads are prone to bouts of fruitless drama. (Seriously, everyone remember to cut Grey Wolf some slack in these threads.)

    More directly on point, finding that secondary source is the name of the game....The same type of game that, if people stop looking for a good secondary source, fosters conspiracy theories and epileptic trees. Coming up with oddball theories is fun, to be sure; but when there's (theoretically) an actual answer to be found, it gets too close to being unable to see the forest for the trees.

    I, for one, don't think the MitD's species has been identified in these threads yet...or, perhaps, that the MitD relies on some dynamic option (templates, most likely) that'll simultaneously make perfect sense at the reveal and result in a meaningless morass of applying it to anything if the thread attempted to work backwards from them...which is why the thread doesn't attempt to work backwards from them.
    Yeah-- as I mentioned in my essay, my D&D experience is so limited compared to others here that I don't think I can realistically add any value researching secondary sources myself. Thus, my conclusion comes from evaluating all the previously determined FBS monsters. If something out there is a better fit, I'm open-minded.

    (That said, I find the Protean least objectionable, of course, but at the same time, I think it's the only one of the FBS creatures where the quibbles are more "It is very unlikely a Protean would do that" as opposed to "It is impossible a Protean could do that.")

    Quote Originally Posted by Jasdoif View Post
    No. Problems I see with it after a (new) cursory review:

    • As cited, the ANB block was posted in 2005, for consideration in the next revision of Terrors of Athas. Near as I can determine, that revision never happened; the latest reference I could find still has a 2004 copyright date (and refers to the MM2 nightmare beast, precisely what the ANB was supposed to improve upon). This particular "Athasian" Nightmare Beast never saw the light of day, seriously undercutting the ability to "guess" it.
    • It has psi-like abilities; which necessitates the world having psionics...so Redcloak should already have known psionics were in use.
    • It's 20 feet tall, and 40 feet long (and has the 10-foot reach of a long Huge creature instead of the 15-foot reach of a tall Huge creature). Scaling its length down enough to fit in the box leads to questions about its height.
    • Its eyes are explicitly crimson. I know glossing over MitD's eyes is popular, but needing to gloss over one of its few well-defined characteristics is problematic at best.
    Wow, I had ANB as my #2 but this is a bit more damning than I realized-- especially if the ANB we've been using as our reference point was never actually published.

    Quote Originally Posted by lio45 View Post
    Another huge problem for the ANB is its unacceptably low strength.

    If we're going to accept that ~30 STR is okay for the Tower Scene, then I'll take the (yellow-eyed!) Ha-Naga over the ANB any day.
    I don't even know if 30 STR can be "okay" per se as opposed to "an arbitrary but agreed-upon bare minimum." As I've said before, I think this is really a case where the higher the strength, the better the fit, especially given that MITD was trying to hit Miko as lightly as possible.

  30. - Top - End - #240
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    Default Re: MitD XIV: High In Protean

    Quote Originally Posted by Ruck View Post
    Yeah-- as I mentioned in my essay, my D&D experience is so limited compared to others here that I don't think I can realistically add any value researching secondary sources myself. Thus, my conclusion comes from evaluating all the previously determined FBS monsters. If something out there is a better fit, I'm open-minded.
    As I've pointed out many times, I personally think the FBS list is shorter than it should normally be at this point, due to the bogus (IMO) criterion number 6, which I believe has been there for many years and hasn't really ever been properly revisited (attempts have been made, but, inertia...) now that we have the certainty that MitD is a child and thus can be arbitrarily smaller than the base adult creature. (We didn't have this certainty in the early years of this thread.)


    I don't even know if 30 STR can be "okay" per se as opposed to "an arbitrary but agreed-upon bare minimum." As I've said before, I think this is really a case where the higher the strength, the better the fit, especially given that MITD was trying to hit Miko as lightly as possible.
    Agreed on "the higher the strength, the better the fit". My view as well (and I think it's inescapable - the Tower Scene is pretty unambiguous).

    I don't know where I would set my own arbitrary bare minimum, but I do know that both Protean and Snorlax are above it, and that anything with a STR of ~30 needn't apply, regardless of how great a fit it otherwise is.

    (edit - unless it has magical powers that would explain the Tower Scene. I'm very flexible on that, given MitD doesn't master his powers well, and that was especially true back then.)
    Last edited by lio45; 2020-06-17 at 06:45 PM.
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