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Thread: MitD XIV: High In Protean
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2020-06-16, 01:08 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: MitD XIV: High In Protean
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2020-06-16, 01:29 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: MitD XIV: High In Protean
I think that's a neat idea, and reading Ruck's essay made me rethink my decision to go from predicting a Protean to a Slaad. It's a really good fit. Also, if we are doing essays now, I call the Tarraesque.
I do have one question about part of Ruck's essay:
Why would a timely shapeshift require rolling a natural 20? I'm reading the SRD and I don't see that part anywhere:
Originally Posted by SRDAvatar by Gurgleflep
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2020-06-16, 01:41 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: MitD XIV: High In Protean
I'm not Ruck (obviously) but I can guess that this
explains this
Emphasis mine.
I don't play D&D either and if asked wether a constantly shapeshifting creature could shape into the one creature whose abilities it needs right now my answer would have been "I dunno but I'm guessing at worst it would require a Nat20."Forum Wisdom
Mage avatar by smutmulch & linklele.
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2020-06-16, 01:54 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: MitD XIV: High In Protean
Seriously, it is not. It is fine for each individual to have strong opinions about a creature's fitness, but it is a terrible idea to promote some of those into the OP. I try to remove as much bias as possible from OP, and this essay is anything but, no matter how much I like it. Yes, it incorporates a lot of solid facts, but what weaves it together is the personal opinion of Ruck. I do not want to be in a position where I have to incorporate an essay telling me how well the psammead fits, so I can't add one for the protean. Or worse, if I end up, as I mentioned, with 5 essays about any one creature, in various stages of overlap and opposition to each other, five-colour-MtG style. That'd turn me from curator to editor, and that's way too much.
If you want to write an essay, go ahead. If we find it useful and oft-referenced, I can link it in the OP. But the essays themselves do not belong to the OP.
Grey WolfLast edited by Grey_Wolf_c; 2020-06-16 at 02:10 PM.
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2020-06-16, 08:13 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: MitD XIV: High In Protean
Wow, I didn't remember Snorlax has that level of detail in 3c! I can now see that my post was a bit redundant.
One thing I've noticed since: Hello Kitty most definitely has no mouth, while the little heads on MitD's umbrella do have mouths which also seem to have teeth at both ends.
Can we add to Section 3c "MitD has an umbrella of little Hello Snorlax heads" among the pros for Snorlax...? ;) ;)Offer good while supplies last. Two to a customer. Each item sold separately. Batteries not included. Mileage may vary. All sales are final. Allow six weeks for delivery. Some items not available. Some assembly required. Some restrictions may apply. All entries become our property. Employees not eligible. Entry fees not refundable. Local restrictions apply. Void where prohibited. Except in Indiana.
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2020-06-17, 02:04 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: MitD XIV: High In Protean
Hello Kitty does have whiskers though, and I think that is what the pink umbrella heads are supposed to have.
When the duckie umbrella is introduced, one of the roaches says "Goodbye Kitty, I guess". That at least implies the old umbrella was supposed to be a Hello Kitty umbrella.
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2020-06-17, 09:05 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: MitD XIV: High In Protean
I always figured it was an "evil" Hello Kitty, really. To fit with the MitD's innocence and the fact that he is on Team Evil.
Cuthalion's art is the prettiest art of all the art. Like my avatar.
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2020-06-17, 09:11 AM (ISO 8601)
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2020-06-17, 09:13 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: MitD XIV: High In Protean
Last edited by Peelee; 2020-06-17 at 09:15 AM.
Cuthalion's art is the prettiest art of all the art. Like my avatar.
Number of times Roland St. Jude has sworn revenge upon me: 2
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2020-06-17, 09:19 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: MitD XIV: High In Protean
Forum Wisdom
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2020-06-17, 09:27 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: MitD XIV: High In Protean
Last edited by Peelee; 2020-06-17 at 09:56 AM.
Cuthalion's art is the prettiest art of all the art. Like my avatar.
Number of times Roland St. Jude has sworn revenge upon me: 2
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2020-06-17, 11:16 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: MitD XIV: High In Protean
Well, again, you can convince yourself the evidence doesn't matter in order to argue for your favorite, but I don't think we're going to get to what the MITD actually is this way.
Ooooh, I like it. I'm not sure if that's what he'll do, but I like the thinking behind it-- the Protean can be whatever he wants to be; MITD assumes the form of the only person he knows who is truly a good friend and a good man.
Again, I'm not a D&D player; this was simply to make a point to people who thought it too unlikely the Protean could partial-shapeshift into the right creature for the Escape scene.
Ha! But, yeah, when people keep making the same arguments that were already countered there, it's probably a good idea.
I still leave open the question to anyone who doesn't like the Protean for the MITD, what they think is a better fit and why.
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2020-06-17, 11:49 AM (ISO 8601)
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2020-06-17, 02:49 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: MitD XIV: High In Protean
My problems with them is that while they both fit decently enough, neither of them have many pros over the Protean, both of them fit both the tower and circus scenes worse (because the Protean has both more strength and is basically a perfect fit for the circus scene), and I’d argue that the Protean could fit the escape scene a bit better because it’s teleport spell is just as good as theirs and comes with an explanation for why he couldn’t reproduce it later. The Uvuuduam also has the biggest con the Protean has but worse and the confusion aura complicates a lot of thing while the ANB has the probably disqualifying thing of it being (IMO) pretty implausible that Rich would have been given the ANB months early and trusted it to be final enough to use it for his comic.
Arrrgh, here be me extended sig!
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2020-06-17, 02:55 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: MitD XIV: High In Protean
Yes. The question you're leaving open isn't about what fits the MitD; but merely which failure to fit the MitD is the least abject.
This is important to note, because this leads straight to the nature of the MitD threads: Grey_Wolf_c has basically chosen to oversee a research paper where research ishamstrungmaimedcrippled, because the only primary source (The Giant) has a vested interest in not providing clear answers. So the only viable approach is to compare secondary sources (entries from monster manuals, typically) against a vague outline...which means subjectively stringing/streching/excising together pieces from the primary source, which means proposals are largely a product of their proposers' imaginations, which means proposers get more emotionally invested in their proposals than is readily apparent, which means many proposers get unduly defensive over criticsm, which means these threads are prone to bouts of fruitless drama. (Seriously, everyone remember to cut Grey Wolf some slack in these threads.)
More directly on point, finding that secondary source is the name of the game....The same type of game that, if people stop looking for a good secondary source, fosters conspiracy theories and epileptic trees. Coming up with oddball theories is fun, to be sure; but when there's (theoretically) an actual answer to be found, it gets too close to being unable to see the forest for the trees.
I, for one, don't think the MitD's species has been identified in these threads yet...or, perhaps, that the MitD relies on some dynamic option (templates, most likely) that'll simultaneously make perfect sense at the reveal and result in a meaningless morass of applying it to anything if the thread attempted to work backwards from them...which is why the thread doesn't attempt to work backwards from them.FeytouchedBanana eldritch disciple avatar by...me!
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2020-06-17, 03:04 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: MitD XIV: High In Protean
Again: a protean can use a move action to retain its shape.
Ok, then Protean with Pseudonatural to explain his looks. Done.
The trouble with templates is that they apply across the board. You can't very well defend that "only creature X gets to invoke templates", and therefore templates are a crutch to eliminate clues from consideration. Creature X doesn't quite have the right look? Pseudonatural. Needs a teleport? Phrenic. Not powerful enough? Paragon. Etc. Which is why I was able to turn a potted plant into an entry for MitD that checked all the boxes.
Grey WolfLast edited by Grey_Wolf_c; 2020-06-17 at 03:05 PM.
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2020-06-17, 03:32 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: MitD XIV: High In Protean
I'm now guessing a Pseudonatural Phrenic Protean.
(Maybe not, Crusher, since I have no real idea what either of those mean in game terms, and I don't want anyone to expend the page space explaining it to me. I'm already satisfied with my official guess of Protean.)
And although I can't speak for Ruck, if I may comment on the "roll a 20" concept as follows:
Yes, such a shapeshift into exactly the right form, at exactly the right moment, would be an incredibly lucky coincidence, somewhere along the lines of Haley rolling a natural 20 to shoot a Talisman off Nale's neck from 200 feet away in the Dungeon of Dorukan. And yet, we've already seen that happen. Because the fact is, this is Rich Burlew's story, and if he wants Haley to roll a 20, then roll a 20 she does; and if he wants a Protean to shift into a form that has the Teleport power, that's what will happen. Because, however unlikely we may think it, it's in the service of the story. That's what matters, and that's all that really matters.
Probably Ruck wouldn't get quite so carried away as I did just then, but I hope that's the same basic point.
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2020-06-17, 03:34 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: MitD XIV: High In Protean
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2020-06-17, 03:38 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: MitD XIV: High In Protean
Well, tough luck. I have to justify my paycheck somehow.
Phrenic: this monster has psychic powers.
Pseudonatural: this monster is in fact a lovecraftian horror that just looks like the base creature. But at any moment it can become a sanity-destroying abomination from beyond the stars.
ETA: You can also see the write-ups of each of the prominent templates proposed in section 2d, BTW
Grey WolfLast edited by Grey_Wolf_c; 2020-06-17 at 04:05 PM.
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2020-06-17, 04:18 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: MitD XIV: High In Protean
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2020-06-17, 04:18 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: MitD XIV: High In Protean
Many times in the sci-fi world, mental powers are a curious blend of conscious and subconscious desires. If the MitD truly doesn't fully understand who and what he is (as his dialogue suggests), his form would be adapting more primarily to his *subconscious* wishes. This would explain why he is always maintaining his 'face' to fit in, and how he was able to partially shift into the necessary creature to enact the escape scene. He desperately wants O'chul to escape, and even though he doesn't have much conscious control over his abilities, his sheer force of desire acted in that moment (which would also explain why he couldn't repeat it.)
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2020-06-17, 05:04 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: MitD XIV: High In Protean
No. Problems I see with it after a (new) cursory review:
- As cited, the ANB block was posted in 2005, for consideration in the next revision of Terrors of Athas. Near as I can determine, that revision never happened; the latest reference I could find still has a 2004 copyright date (and refers to the MM2 nightmare beast, precisely what the ANB was supposed to improve upon). This particular "Athasian" Nightmare Beast never saw the light of day, seriously undercutting the ability to "guess" it.
- It has psi-like abilities; which necessitates the world having psionics...so Redcloak should already have known psionics were in use.
- It's 20 feet tall, and 40 feet long (and has the 10-foot reach of a long Huge creature instead of the 15-foot reach of a tall Huge creature). Scaling its length down enough to fit in the box leads to questions about its height.
- Its eyes are explicitly crimson. I know glossing over MitD's eyes is popular, but needing to gloss over one of its few well-defined characteristics is problematic at best.
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2020-06-17, 05:31 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: MitD XIV: High In Protean
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2020-06-17, 06:31 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: MitD XIV: High In Protean
Yeah-- as I mentioned in my essay, my D&D experience is so limited compared to others here that I don't think I can realistically add any value researching secondary sources myself. Thus, my conclusion comes from evaluating all the previously determined FBS monsters. If something out there is a better fit, I'm open-minded.
(That said, I find the Protean least objectionable, of course, but at the same time, I think it's the only one of the FBS creatures where the quibbles are more "It is very unlikely a Protean would do that" as opposed to "It is impossible a Protean could do that.")
Wow, I had ANB as my #2 but this is a bit more damning than I realized-- especially if the ANB we've been using as our reference point was never actually published.
I don't even know if 30 STR can be "okay" per se as opposed to "an arbitrary but agreed-upon bare minimum." As I've said before, I think this is really a case where the higher the strength, the better the fit, especially given that MITD was trying to hit Miko as lightly as possible.
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2020-06-17, 06:42 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: MitD XIV: High In Protean
As I've pointed out many times, I personally think the FBS list is shorter than it should normally be at this point, due to the bogus (IMO) criterion number 6, which I believe has been there for many years and hasn't really ever been properly revisited (attempts have been made, but, inertia...) now that we have the certainty that MitD is a child and thus can be arbitrarily smaller than the base adult creature. (We didn't have this certainty in the early years of this thread.)
I don't even know if 30 STR can be "okay" per se as opposed to "an arbitrary but agreed-upon bare minimum." As I've said before, I think this is really a case where the higher the strength, the better the fit, especially given that MITD was trying to hit Miko as lightly as possible.
I don't know where I would set my own arbitrary bare minimum, but I do know that both Protean and Snorlax are above it, and that anything with a STR of ~30 needn't apply, regardless of how great a fit it otherwise is.
(edit - unless it has magical powers that would explain the Tower Scene. I'm very flexible on that, given MitD doesn't master his powers well, and that was especially true back then.)Last edited by lio45; 2020-06-17 at 06:45 PM.
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