When did the trogg invasion of gnomergan happen?

[Myth27]

compared to the start of vanilla WoW or the events of warcraft III, when did the events that made gnomergan inhabitable happen?

[Rodin]

After Warcraft III and I'm pretty sure it's after Frozen Throne as well. Gnomeregan was invaded at some point prior to the start of Vanilla WoW.

The meta explanation is that they needed some reason to only have 3 capital cities for the Alliance races - Night Elves (Teldrassil), Humans (New Stormwind), and Dwarves (Ironforge). Gnomes were the odd man out so their capital city got invaded by Troggs.

On the Horde side the Trolls get a similar treatment - the island the Darkspear trolls are from were destroyed and sunk into the ocean by an angry Naga.

[Myth27]

Thank you!

[Resileaf]

Actually, recent lore revelations (read: retcons) imply that the trogg invasion happened during Warcraft 3 and the gnomes did not tell anyone because there was a demonic invasion going on and they didn't want to bother Ironforge with their problems.

[Cazero]

As far as I remember, Warcraft 3 never shows Ironforge or dwarven politics, never mentions Gnomereggan, and barely acknowledges the existence of gnomes.

[Rodin]

Actually, recent lore revelations (read: retcons) imply that the trogg invasion happened during Warcraft 3 and the gnomes did not tell anyone because there was a demonic invasion going on and they didn't want to bother Ironforge with their problems.

The Warcraft universe has been retconned so often that I'm honestly surprised Gnomeregan getting invaded is still canon.

[Spore]

As far as I remember, Warcraft 3 never shows Ironforge or dwarven politics, never mentions Gnomereggan, and barely acknowledges the existence of gnomes.

Ironforge was "where the dwarf units come from" in Warcraft 2. That is IT. I feel Lord Garithos was the only strong hint at the Alliance's view on sub/demihumans during WC 3, and why they are not really explored, and more of an auxiliary force. Heck, even Muradin's role is that of a wise mentor and combat trainer/victim/worf effect sufferer.

Staying with dwarves for a second I don't even KNOW why they bother to work for the humans and their petty problems. On the other side, the line of the dwarven rifleman under Garithos' command may explain it: "they don't pay us enough to put up with that *******." They're mercenaries.

The Warcraft universe has been retconned so often that I'm honestly surprised Gnomeregan getting invaded is still canon.

This. So much this. Gnomes are basically "what if we don't want ALL technological wonders coming from Dwarves because that looks too much like Warhammer already". The whole damn race is half a joke, half clumsily inserted world building.

[Androgeus]

Wowpedia says it happened at the same time as the fall of Lordaeron (This is referencing World of Warcraft Chronicle books, where they retcon the timeline so it can kind of make a little sense)

When Lordaeron fell, the gnomes mysteriously withdrew all their aid. It would be only after the Third War that the rest of the Alliance would learn the reason: Gnomeregan had come under attack by the brutish troggs that emerged from the earth after having been awakened by the dwarves digging around Uldaman. The creatures were attracted the gnomish machinery and built tunnels to breach the lowest reaches of the city.[9] In order to avoid drawing Alliance troops from the battle against the Scourge in the north, High Tinker Mekkatorque decided that the gnomes would defend Gnomeregan alone. For five years, the gnomes fought the troggs, but were overrun.

[Resileaf]

Staying with dwarves for a second I don't even KNOW why they bother to work for the humans and their petty problems. On the other side, the line of the dwarven rifleman under Garithos' command may explain it: "they don't pay us enough to put up with that *******." They're mercenaries.

Because Lordaeron is the kingdom that created the Alliance (hence Alliance of Lordaeron) during Warcraft 2, and therefore led the fight against the Horde, Garithos is not representative of the opinion that humans have of dwarves and a zombie apocalypse doesn't sound like 'petty' problems to me. Muradin remained in the Alliance because he believed in the cause of Terenas Menethil and his people were welcome in human lands.

[Keltest]

Because Lordaeron is the kingdom that created the Alliance (hence Alliance of Lordaeron) during Warcraft 2, and therefore led the fight against the Horde, Garithos is not representative of the opinion that humans have of dwarves and a zombie apocalypse doesn't sound like 'petty' problems to me. Muradin remained in the Alliance because he believed in the cause of Terenas Menethil and his people were welcome in human lands.

Besides which, the humans (and elves, to a point) fought and bled for the dwarves pretty hard. Khaz Modan was one of the harder hit areas during the Second War, as well as one of the earlier battlefields, and ultimately the dwarves would not have held without the human and elven allies that came to their rescue.

Garithos's title is also, frankly, almost certainly self bestowed given the general collapse of all the human command structures and his general incompetence when it comes to tactics.

[Resileaf]

Garithos's title is also, frankly, almost certainly self bestowed given the general collapse of all the human command structures and his general incompetence when it comes to tactics.

Indeed, he was the last high-ranking Lordaeronian officer still alive at the time, so elven and dwarven support to Lordaeron flocked to him since there was otherwise no chain of command.

[Leon]

Not fast enough.

[Psyren]

Wowpedia says it happened at the same time as the fall of Lordaeron (This is referencing World of Warcraft Chronicle books, where they retcon the timeline so it can kind of make a little sense)

This - Chronicle is the primary source for canonicity and timeline now, even if it contradicts info that was found in WC3 or in-game Vanilla.

And if they have to change it again, honestly, they will - there is a whole dragonflight dedicated to time (and to messing with it) so they have the means, and Metzen's napkin scribblings to justify the magi-steampunk stuff were never intended to last the over two decades that they've had to.

[Morty]

Warcraft is one of those things that blew up way past its original premise, which was Warhammer Fantasy with serial numbers filed off. It held together well enough in Warcraft 3, but there was always a degree of making it up as they went. And in WoW it really started eating its own tail after a while.

[Keltest]

Warcraft is one of those things that blew up way past its original premise, which was Warhammer Fantasy with serial numbers filed off. It held together well enough in Warcraft 3, but there was always a degree of making it up as they went. And in WoW it really started eating its own tail after a while.

The faction war in WoW is, I think, by far the biggest millstone around the direction of the franchise. Its been what, 30 years since WC3 and the sides have settled their differences and agreed to stop fighting... 3 times now I think? But it never sticks, because you gotta keep up the faction war so the players have an excuse to harass low level players on the other faction.

[Morty]

The faction war in WoW is, I think, by far the biggest millstone around the direction of the franchise. Its been what, 30 years since WC3 and the sides have settled their differences and agreed to stop fighting... 3 times now I think? But it never sticks, because you gotta keep up the faction war so the players have an excuse to harass low level players on the other faction.

It's definitely the root cause, but really any continuous narrative that goes on for this long and has to keep providing content for the same characters is going to get tangled up. When time travel becomes involved, you know things are bad.

[Winthur]

Ironforge was "where the dwarf units come from" in Warcraft 2.

This. So much this. Gnomes are basically "what if we don't want ALL technological wonders coming from Dwarves because that looks too much like Warhammer already"

But all of the technological wonders of the Alliance in WarCraft 2 came from the Gnomes. Gnomes are the Flying Machine operators and they are the ones who came up with Submarines. Dwarves, in turn, are demolition men and the Wildhammer clan is manning the gryphons. Gnomes are the high-tech faction here, Dwarves are mostly good with gunpowder.

[Resileaf]

But all of the technological wonders of the Alliance in WarCraft 2 came from the Gnomes. Gnomes are the Flying Machine operators and they are the ones who came up with Submarines. Dwarves, in turn, are demolition men and the Wildhammer clan is manning the gryphons. Gnomes are the high-tech faction here, Dwarves are mostly good with gunpowder.

Gnomes are innovators, (Ironforge) Dwarves are perfectionists. The gnomes invent, the dwarves use the inventions that have proven themselves.

[LongVin]

It's definitely the root cause, but really any continuous narrative that goes on for this long and has to keep providing content for the same characters is going to get tangled up. When time travel becomes involved, you know things are bad.

I've been away from the WoW game for awhile. They introduced time travel?

[Cazero]

I've been away from the WoW game for awhile. They introduced time travel?

It was there for a long time. Bronze dragons are all about time travel. Specificaly, making sure nobody does it because it always ends badly for everyone in general and the physical stability of the universe in particular. Players mess with the timeline for **** and giggles since Warlords of Draenor.

[Fyraltari]

I've been away from the WoW game for awhile. They introduced time travel?

Yes, except it’s time travel to another dimension so you can kill Grom and Kurgath and not have any problem.
Which of course means it’s worthless time-travel but, heh.

It was there for a long time.

Well, it’s time travel, it has been there since the farthest back in time anybody got.

[Kish]

I've been away from the WoW game for awhile. They introduced time travel?

The Caverns of Time letting people travel through time was introduced with WoW's very first expansion.

They were in the game before, but you couldn't actually enter them and I don't know if the Brood of Nozdormu said anything about what they could do or what they were for.

Burning Crusade and Wrath of the Lich King stuck to "your role, as players, is to stop the timeline from getting changed." Cataclysm introduced other goals, and it was all downhill from there. ("Cataclysm [...] and it was all downhill from there" is likely the most consistently accurate sentence structure in the WoW franchise.)

[Spore]

Gnomes are innovators, (Ironforge) Dwarves are perfectionists. The gnomes invent, the dwarves use the inventions that have proven themselves.

I may have missed a few beats or two, but in my mind, gnomes are 95% comic relief, while dwarves are still stuck in their stupid brother's war, not leaving much room for any additional racial RP. Even Magni is just Azeroth's mouthpiece now, so far removed from dwarvenkind it hurts.

Spoiler

Show

Imagine a "hahah tiny people go boom" meme here, with goblins and gnomes pasted within poorly edited paint explosions

[Psyren]

Legion was pretty noticeably uphill, and Pandaria was looked back on fondly too. I have high hopes for Shadowlands as well.

WoD and BFA though... eugh, no defense here.

[The Glyphstone]

If whoever writes WoW's cinematics was also in charge of writing its plot, I'd enjoy the story a lot more. They'r the hidden story gems in a giant pile of drek.

[Resileaf]

If whoever writes WoW's cinematics was also in charge of writing its plot, I'd enjoy the story a lot more. They'r the hidden story gems in a giant pile of drek.

The Sylvanas vs Bolvar fight cinematic makes me think that maybe don't give them that much power.

[Keltest]

The Sylvanas vs Bolvar fight cinematic makes me think that maybe don't give them that much power.

When the fundamental premise is dumb, theres only so much that even cinematic magic can do.

[Cazero]

When the fundamental premise is dumb, theres only so much that even cinematic magic can do.

Like, "let's turn our game in a long succession of short movies turning everything the actual players do into background noise at best"?

[Keltest]

Like, "let's turn our game in a long succession of short movies turning everything the actual players do into background noise at best"?

Eh, the number of people who seek out MMOs for the plot is probably in the single digits. I'm willing to settle for "not actively offensive with its stupidity" if its pretty.

[The Glyphstone]

The Sylvanas vs Bolvar fight cinematic makes me think that maybe don't give them that much power.

I haven't seen that one. But Wrathgate, Taran Zhu vs. Garrosh, Sylvanas vs. Genn, Daughter of The Sea...they've got way more home runs or at least solid hits than they do strikeouts. Even Thrall vs. Garrosh was a good scene, only ruined because it completely deprived the PCs actions of meaning.