Results 151 to 179 of 179
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2020-06-16, 12:29 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: When did the trogg invasion of gnomergan happen?
Yes but its still better than just going 'oh snap' and returning to the twisting nether just because 1 human didnt fall. They dont need a genius, just someone who'll take Frostmourne and become the Lich King's vessel. Worse case, Nerzhul takes over (since Dreadlords dont know its still resentful and planning to betray them). If said vessel also throws Lordaeron into chaos or as you say is a strong / smart one, all the better, but competent yet corrupt people are not that rare in Lordaeron.
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2020-06-16, 12:46 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2018
Re: When did the trogg invasion of gnomergan happen?
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2020-06-16, 06:11 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2010
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2020-06-16, 06:23 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2013
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Re: When did the trogg invasion of gnomergan happen?
“Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”
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2020-06-16, 06:36 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: When did the trogg invasion of gnomergan happen?
So even if Arthas had backed off from Stratholme and 'arrayed the might of the eastern kingdoms' (with the dwarves tied up in their own civil war stuff, the gnomes being trogg'd and the rest of the nations still recovering) they would've still ultimately lose, gaining nothing from letting the populace of stratholme and surrounding villages die to plague and undeads?
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2020-06-16, 07:22 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2013
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Re: When did the trogg invasion of gnomergan happen?
would have? no. Could have? yes. The fact that the Lich King was based in Northrend made locating and assaulting him virtually impossible, so they weren't ever going to beat him that way, but they could identify the Cult of the Damned members and kill enough necromancers that the plague would end and the Lich King would have no particular undead army to take beyond Northrend. Victory was not inevitable for the Lich King or Legion by any means, but he had a solid plan and a good grasp of the psychology of the players he was working with.
Last edited by Keltest; 2020-06-16 at 07:23 PM.
“Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”
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2020-06-16, 07:25 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jun 2018
Re: When did the trogg invasion of gnomergan happen?
Not necessarily. The Legion's plan involved using the Scourge to destroy Quel'thalas and Lordaeron and ultimately summon Archimonde to lead the invasion. If the Scourge fails to do that, they need another plan.
Also I do not recall any civil war happening at the time in Ironforge.
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2020-06-16, 11:05 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2010
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Re: When did the trogg invasion of gnomergan happen?
Plague Doctor by Crimmy
Ext. Sig (Handbooks/Creations)
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2020-06-19, 01:38 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2010
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- right behind you
Re: When did the trogg invasion of gnomergan happen?
You are assuming that it all stops there with the stratholme army and its backup defeated. We have absolutely no reason to believe that it would be. This is an already very large army, thats going on a rampage for however many days weeks or longer it takes to gather up a full army to face them. Meanwhile they are killing everyone in range and adding to their forces. Not too mention all the other human kingdoms likely dealing with their own cult of the damned outbreaks because malganis has proven he can go just about anywhere and carry out his plans and nobody can stop him, doing a fine job of tying up the army at their own locations. After all, without Arthas chasing him according to plan, malganis is free to keep up the not so good work. Suddenly Stormwind is like, "I would like to help you, but Westfall has gone dark, and the guard outpost near Redridge reports its under heavy attack by the undead. We have human gnoll and murloc zombies swarming everywhere! I dont have troops to spare." Upon learning that both lorderan and stormwind are under siege the other kingdoms decide they cant risk stripping their own kingdoms short of soldiers in case they are next. Now Lorderan has to deal with a massive zombie outbreak all by itself. Good luck!
And malganis totally would do that because the entire point is to weaken the various kingdoms so the legion can break through and take over with minimal resistance. He loses nothing by keeping it up because its not like it costs him anything even if the undead get wiped out. Its still yet another town or village turned undead and sent against the living, weakening the kingdom from both directions. Best case he wipes out the living. Worst case he loses his cultists. Anything in between that is still a victory for the legion, if not a total one. And even the worst case means little to him or his side as the undead are just a convenient tool to be used then discarded when finished. Even if my theory of malganis hitting the other human kingdoms to keep them focused on their own problems doesnt happen, again we are talking weeks or longer before a unified force can arrive. Weeks during which the undead plague is growing larger and larger and engulfing more and more of lorderan. It could very well reach a tipping point where they arent able to stop it. And even if they do eventually stop it, at what cost? Lorderan is likely all but destroyed, and the losses incurred by wiping out the undead plague are going to be very VERY high for everyone involved. Sure they may still remain intact themselves, but greatly weakened and ripe for further efforts by the dreadlords."Interdum feror cupidine partium magnarum Europae vincendarum"
Translation: "Sometimes I get this urge to conquer large parts of Europe."
"If you don't get those cameras out of my face, I'm gonna go 8.6 on the Richter scale with gastric emissions that'll clear this room."
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2020-06-19, 04:09 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2010
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Re: When did the trogg invasion of gnomergan happen?
And even the EK are secondary. The prize is the Book of Medivh in Dalaran; as soon as they mobilize elsewhere, if a Dreadlord or three beeline into it and get to summoning Archimonde its game over for the EK anyways. The vaunted Kirin Tor, greatest mages of the Alliance, got their city wiped out in minutes as an afterthought.
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2020-06-19, 07:15 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2010
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Re: When did the trogg invasion of gnomergan happen?
We have every reason to believe that, because DK Arthas' army came from Northrend - not just Stratholme. No stupidly running off to Northrend, no faction-sized army. His knowledge of how to bring back KT also came from having gone to Northrend.
Except as stated, they needed Arthas to go to Northrend for an army (not just Stratholme and a couple of Dreadlords) to hold the line long enough for Archimonde to show up. Getting the book wasn't the win, Kel'thuzad completing the long ritual from said book was. Had Arthas never gone, the Scourge would have never succeeded at bringing him in (hell, they might not even have gotten to the Sunwell to revive Kel'thuzad, or gotten Medivh's book o begin with) and Dalaran would not have fallen.Plague Doctor by Crimmy
Ext. Sig (Handbooks/Creations)
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2020-06-20, 05:39 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2004
Re: When did the trogg invasion of gnomergan happen?
When Arthas initially discovered the poisoned grain, he had available to him whatever options a ridiculously powerful archmage and the head of the Knights of the Silver Hand could have come up with and/or arranged. What those are, will never be revealed because he immediately drove both those people off by jumping straight to murderdeathkill, with a side of "how dare you question me!"
Even without all the blaring "this is Arthas making the wrong choice" klaxons, I still wouldn't be getting on the "he did what he had to do" train.
It's a rare thing for me to agree with the Blizzard writers' moral sense, these days; it's good to be reminded that wasn't always the case.Orth Plays: Currently Baldur's Gate II
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2020-06-20, 06:46 AM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2007
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2020-06-20, 09:47 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2018
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2020-06-20, 09:51 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2013
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Re: When did the trogg invasion of gnomergan happen?
He didnt exactly attack them. Jaina chose to leave of her own accord, Arthas had actually expected her to say. Uther meanwhile is still a paladin and has considerable experience and authority, even if Arthas tried to strip him of it. If they actually had an alternative, they had plenty of opportunity to present it or try to implement it on their own.
“Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”
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2020-06-20, 10:11 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2010
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- right behind you
Re: When did the trogg invasion of gnomergan happen?
Exactly this. And in addition, its been a couple decades in universe since these events took place and nobody, not the silver hand, not the kirin tor, nobody, has managed to come up with a way to cure undeath. Arthas' original plan was to stop the grain shipments, not to just murder everyone and everything. Unfortunately, by the time he learned where the huge shipment of grain was going, it was too late, it had been dispersed and eaten. Even with 20 years of hindsight, there is no idea that comes to mind that would have lessened the death toll once stratholme was infected.
And Psyren, there is no reason to think that malganis or one of the other dreadlords couldnt have done the same thing to bring back kelthuzad. The final mission could have just as easily been KT casting the ritual while the three dreadlords and their forces protected him instead of arthas. Arthas didnt wander through lorderan and silvermoon at the head of a premade army. He had to setup his undead production abilities as he went and build it as he moved further through the lands. And even if that was the case, they wouldnt have to give up on turning arthas. An extended campaign where he is forced to fight armies of his own people turned into zombies, along with a few extra atrocities for flavor and constant mockery by malganis, its entirely possible that eventually he would break and go to northrend anyways."Interdum feror cupidine partium magnarum Europae vincendarum"
Translation: "Sometimes I get this urge to conquer large parts of Europe."
"If you don't get those cameras out of my face, I'm gonna go 8.6 on the Richter scale with gastric emissions that'll clear this room."
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2020-06-20, 12:10 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jun 2018
Re: When did the trogg invasion of gnomergan happen?
Jaina left because Arthas made it clear that anyone who didn't want to follow his plan was his enemy. Uther was stripped of his authority and leadership position, if he tried to do anything to stop Arthas, it would have been actual treason, and would have been the absolute worst thing he could have done in the current situation. It's not like he could act in secret either, Arthas and his men would be scouring the entire city immediately.
Except someone has managed to come up with a way to cure undeath. Grand Apothecary Putress (yes, the guy who betrayed both factions at the Wrathgate) saved both factions during the pre-Wrath event by finding a way to cure the zombie outbreak.Last edited by Resileaf; 2020-06-20 at 12:12 PM.
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2020-06-20, 12:16 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2013
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Re: When did the trogg invasion of gnomergan happen?
As Uther reminds Arthas, Uther is his superior, and Arthas is not king. Uther leaves because he's disgusted with Arthas, not because Arthas has any actual authority to dismiss him from his rank.
And Uther had plenty of soldiers with him, soldiers loyal to him rather than Arthas. Had he been so inclined, he could easily have stayed and tried to figure out a different solution.“Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”
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2020-06-20, 12:26 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2018
Re: When did the trogg invasion of gnomergan happen?
Staying would have forced him into armed conflict with Arthas, you really think Uther should have chanced that? Do you really think that King Terenas would have later taken Uther's side when he learned that the leader of the Silver Hand attacked his son? And do you think that the undead army would have just stayed put and waited for the two of them to stop their battle? No, staying and facing down Arthas would have turned a terrible situation into a disastrous one. Leaving was the only thing he could do once Arthas blew him off.
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2020-06-20, 12:30 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2013
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Re: When did the trogg invasion of gnomergan happen?
Frankly, yes, i think Terenas would have taken Uther's side if Arthas had attacked Uther for not slaughtering the population of a city on the prince's command.
beyond which, Arthas was busy purging the city and fighting Mal'ganis. he doesnt have to fight or confront Arthas, just stick around and try something else. Leaving was pretty much the worst thing he could do in this situation, since Arthas is killing the city anyway, and now he isnt even trying to stop it.“Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”
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2020-06-20, 01:06 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2018
Re: When did the trogg invasion of gnomergan happen?
No way Terenas would take Uther's side. If he had, he wouldn't have just let Arthas take the whole damn army and bring it to Northrend. Terenas trusted his son.
Stick around where? Stratholme has like, two entrances, one of which is blocked by Arthas' camp. He couldn't possibly have hidden anywhere and acted in secrecy.
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2020-06-20, 01:09 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: When did the trogg invasion of gnomergan happen?
Point of order: he didnt let arthas take the army. He had the troops recalled, specifically at Uther's request. Arthas had to bend over backwards pretty far to get around that while still appearing to remain legitimately in command.
Also, Uther has an army too. He can just set up camp somewhere outside the gates. What's Arthas going to do, ignore Mal'ganis to come pick a fight with Uther over not standing at a respectable enough distance?“Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”
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2020-06-20, 01:18 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2018
Re: When did the trogg invasion of gnomergan happen?
He had the troops recalled after an entire month of trying to convince him. That's an entire month that Terenas was in agreement with Arthas taking the army to Northrend.
And yes, absolutely. Arthas had made it clear that everyone who was not on his side of this battle was an enemy and he would accept no dissent. If Uther parked his army (whatever was left of it that wasn't with Arthas anyway) somewhere close by with intentions to interefere with the purging, Arthas would absolutely have taken on Uther as well.
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2020-06-20, 01:31 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: When did the trogg invasion of gnomergan happen?
Theres no evidence that it took a month to convince Terenas, thats just how long it took for the recall order to get there. Furthermore, dont forget that Uther had to travel to the Capital City to make his case while Arthas was sailing.
And while yes, Arthas would have fought Uther if Uther was going to just stop the purge with no alternative, Arthas doesnt want to kill his people. If Uther had an alternative that would save them without killing them, then Arthas would be open to it if it could be demonstrated to work.
But even beyond that, Uther is a paladin. He's supposed to be taking the hard jobs out of principle.“Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”
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2020-06-20, 01:56 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2018
Re: When did the trogg invasion of gnomergan happen?
It took three days between Stratholme's purge and Arthas being already gone from Lordaeron. Can't have taken very long for Uther to reach the Capital city. The recall order came from zeppelin, and flying zeppelins are naturally much faster than sailing ships. It may not have taken a full month for Uther to convince Terenas, but it certainly didn't happen in a few days either.
Arthas being willing to slaughter every single citizen of Stratholme irrespective of their state of infection indicates otherwise on his willingness to kill his people.
Uther is a Warcraft paladin, not a D&D paladin. Warcraft paladins don't have the code of conduct of D&D.Last edited by Resileaf; 2020-06-20 at 01:57 PM.
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2020-06-20, 01:59 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: When did the trogg invasion of gnomergan happen?
Warcraft paladins DO have the code of conduct of D&D, they just dont lose their powers for failing to uphold it.
Also, Arthas didnt slaughter every citizen, because we later see a bunch of citizens on cleanup duty in the city.
Also, i'd like to see a source on zepplins being faster than ships. This is goblin tech youre talking about. That it works at all is a minor miracle.“Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”
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2020-06-20, 02:10 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2018
Re: When did the trogg invasion of gnomergan happen?
No they don't. Paladins were created to be an elite corps of warrior priests against the Horde during the second War. Whatever code they have is no different than any code from some knightly order or religious order, and said code would be specific to the Silver Hand and no other order (such as the Blood Knights or Sunwalkers or whatever order of paladins Stormwind has).
Seems more likely that those other citizens were brought from neighboring villages to do cleanup. The story makes it pretty clear that everyone within the walls of Stratholme is slain during the Purge.
Goblin tech may be notorious for many reasons, but zeppelins are generally not subject to this (their pilots are a different matter, but that's another story). In the absence of proof that there was a delay for the king's emissary to arrive to Northrend, I do not believe that we should assume that there was one.
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2020-06-20, 02:12 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2010
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- right behind you
Re: When did the trogg invasion of gnomergan happen?
Maybe it was covered in a novel but I dont recall it ever being mentioned in game if arthas had permission to go to northrend or just took his men and left. Each case makes a big difference in both how long it would take uther to convince the king to recall him and also to FIND arthas and his men in northrend. For all we know it took uther a month to convince the king that arthas was not making the right choice, to change his mind if he had permission. Or it took a month for uther to reach the capitol, tell the king what crazy stuff was going on, and figure out specifically where to send the messenger if they had no idea where specifically arthas was. Northrend is a very big place after all.
"Interdum feror cupidine partium magnarum Europae vincendarum"
Translation: "Sometimes I get this urge to conquer large parts of Europe."
"If you don't get those cameras out of my face, I'm gonna go 8.6 on the Richter scale with gastric emissions that'll clear this room."
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2020-06-20, 02:17 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2010
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Re: When did the trogg invasion of gnomergan happen?
The Horde zeps are all goblin run and pretty stable. But the messenger probably didnt travel from Capital City in a zeppelin, he probably sailed a part of the way then into the cold areas he flew.
Terenas is not just Uther's king, he is his war buddy from all the way back to the 2nd war. Arthas, while the crown prince, is also in training; reigning in his mistakes is Uther's job. Why didnt he stay and detain him? I mean, if it showed Uther making a stand and Arthas' men pointing weapons at him, then sure. But he didnt, he got offended and walked away in silence. He doesn't even stick around to at least witness the citizens' deaths and provide accurate account in the unavoidable coming investigation.
The thing is, the Alliance already lost their best and brightest, locked behind the Portal. Whats left is the 'best' in absence of those who died or sacrificed themselves.