New OOTS products from CafePress
New OOTS t-shirts, ornaments, mugs, bags, and more
Page 6 of 6 FirstFirst 123456
Results 151 to 179 of 179
  1. - Top - End - #151
    Banned
     
    LansXero's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    Lima, Peru
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: When did the trogg invasion of gnomergan happen?

    Quote Originally Posted by Keltest View Post
    And most of them are useless. They wanted Arthas precisely because on top of his personality, he is actually halfway competent.
    Yes but its still better than just going 'oh snap' and returning to the twisting nether just because 1 human didnt fall. They dont need a genius, just someone who'll take Frostmourne and become the Lich King's vessel. Worse case, Nerzhul takes over (since Dreadlords dont know its still resentful and planning to betray them). If said vessel also throws Lordaeron into chaos or as you say is a strong / smart one, all the better, but competent yet corrupt people are not that rare in Lordaeron.

  2. - Top - End - #152
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    ElfRogueGirl

    Join Date
    Jun 2018

    Default Re: When did the trogg invasion of gnomergan happen?

    Quote Originally Posted by LansXero View Post
    Yes but its still better than just going 'oh snap' and returning to the twisting nether just because 1 human didnt fall. They dont need a genius, just someone who'll take Frostmourne and become the Lich King's vessel. Worse case, Nerzhul takes over (since Dreadlords dont know its still resentful and planning to betray them). If said vessel also throws Lordaeron into chaos or as you say is a strong / smart one, all the better, but competent yet corrupt people are not that rare in Lordaeron.
    The Lich King's vessel thing was specifically a Ner'zhul plan to later betray the Legion. It's not a necessity of the Legion's plan. Ner'zhul just advertised it to his Nathrezim handlers as needing a champion to lead the Scourge armies.

  3. - Top - End - #153
    Banned
     
    LansXero's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    Lima, Peru
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: When did the trogg invasion of gnomergan happen?

    Quote Originally Posted by Resileaf View Post
    The Lich King's vessel thing was specifically a Ner'zhul plan to later betray the Legion. It's not a necessity of the Legion's plan. Ner'zhul just advertised it to his Nathrezim handlers as needing a champion to lead the Scourge armies.
    So the Scourge roflstomps the Eastern Kingdoms with or without Stratholme being burned?

  4. - Top - End - #154
    Titan in the Playground
     
    AssassinGuy

    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: When did the trogg invasion of gnomergan happen?

    Quote Originally Posted by LansXero View Post
    So the Scourge roflstomps the Eastern Kingdoms with or without Stratholme being burned?
    Arthas was a useful tool to that end, and made their victory much easier by decapitating Lordaeron. But a Legion victory doesn't strictly require Arthas.
    “Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”

  5. - Top - End - #155
    Banned
     
    LansXero's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    Lima, Peru
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: When did the trogg invasion of gnomergan happen?

    Quote Originally Posted by Keltest View Post
    Arthas was a useful tool to that end, and made their victory much easier by decapitating Lordaeron. But a Legion victory doesn't strictly require Arthas.
    So even if Arthas had backed off from Stratholme and 'arrayed the might of the eastern kingdoms' (with the dwarves tied up in their own civil war stuff, the gnomes being trogg'd and the rest of the nations still recovering) they would've still ultimately lose, gaining nothing from letting the populace of stratholme and surrounding villages die to plague and undeads?

  6. - Top - End - #156
    Titan in the Playground
     
    AssassinGuy

    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: When did the trogg invasion of gnomergan happen?

    Quote Originally Posted by LansXero View Post
    So even if Arthas had backed off from Stratholme and 'arrayed the might of the eastern kingdoms' (with the dwarves tied up in their own civil war stuff, the gnomes being trogg'd and the rest of the nations still recovering) they would've still ultimately lose, gaining nothing from letting the populace of stratholme and surrounding villages die to plague and undeads?
    would have? no. Could have? yes. The fact that the Lich King was based in Northrend made locating and assaulting him virtually impossible, so they weren't ever going to beat him that way, but they could identify the Cult of the Damned members and kill enough necromancers that the plague would end and the Lich King would have no particular undead army to take beyond Northrend. Victory was not inevitable for the Lich King or Legion by any means, but he had a solid plan and a good grasp of the psychology of the players he was working with.
    Last edited by Keltest; 2020-06-16 at 07:23 PM.
    “Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”

  7. - Top - End - #157
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    ElfRogueGirl

    Join Date
    Jun 2018

    Default Re: When did the trogg invasion of gnomergan happen?

    Quote Originally Posted by LansXero View Post
    So even if Arthas had backed off from Stratholme and 'arrayed the might of the eastern kingdoms' (with the dwarves tied up in their own civil war stuff, the gnomes being trogg'd and the rest of the nations still recovering) they would've still ultimately lose, gaining nothing from letting the populace of stratholme and surrounding villages die to plague and undeads?
    Not necessarily. The Legion's plan involved using the Scourge to destroy Quel'thalas and Lordaeron and ultimately summon Archimonde to lead the invasion. If the Scourge fails to do that, they need another plan.

    Also I do not recall any civil war happening at the time in Ironforge.

  8. - Top - End - #158
    Spamalot in the Playground
     
    Psyren's Avatar

    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: When did the trogg invasion of gnomergan happen?

    Quote Originally Posted by LansXero View Post
    So even if Arthas had backed off from Stratholme and 'arrayed the might of the eastern kingdoms' (with the dwarves tied up in their own civil war stuff, the gnomes being trogg'd and the rest of the nations still recovering) they would've still ultimately lose, gaining nothing from letting the populace of stratholme and surrounding villages die to plague and undeads?
    Well-

    Quote Originally Posted by Keltest View Post
    would have? no. Could have? yes. The fact that the Lich King was based in Northrend made locating and assaulting him virtually impossible, so they weren't ever going to beat him that way, but they could identify the Cult of the Damned members and kill enough necromancers that the plague would end and the Lich King would have no particular undead army to take beyond Northrend. Victory was not inevitable for the Lich King or Legion by any means, but he had a solid plan and a good grasp of the psychology of the players he was working with.
    Quote Originally Posted by Resileaf View Post
    Not necessarily. The Legion's plan involved using the Scourge to destroy Quel'thalas and Lordaeron and ultimately summon Archimonde to lead the invasion. If the Scourge fails to do that, they need another plan.

    Also I do not recall any civil war happening at the time in Ironforge.
    ^ What they said. Nice try though.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
    Plague Doctor by Crimmy
    Ext. Sig (Handbooks/Creations)

  9. - Top - End - #159
    Colossus in the Playground
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    right behind you

    Default Re: When did the trogg invasion of gnomergan happen?

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    Even with all your inflated "pluses", this is still far less than the military might of Silvermoon, Lordaeron, Stormwind, Dalaran AND Stromgarde united, and I haven't even included Ironforge and the Aerie. So your point doesn't make much sense.



    Yeah there's some hindsight benefit there, but it's reasonable to predict that not mobilizing other nations to face the threat could leave them blindsided if it shows up on their doorsteps piecemeal.
    You are assuming that it all stops there with the stratholme army and its backup defeated. We have absolutely no reason to believe that it would be. This is an already very large army, thats going on a rampage for however many days weeks or longer it takes to gather up a full army to face them. Meanwhile they are killing everyone in range and adding to their forces. Not too mention all the other human kingdoms likely dealing with their own cult of the damned outbreaks because malganis has proven he can go just about anywhere and carry out his plans and nobody can stop him, doing a fine job of tying up the army at their own locations. After all, without Arthas chasing him according to plan, malganis is free to keep up the not so good work. Suddenly Stormwind is like, "I would like to help you, but Westfall has gone dark, and the guard outpost near Redridge reports its under heavy attack by the undead. We have human gnoll and murloc zombies swarming everywhere! I dont have troops to spare." Upon learning that both lorderan and stormwind are under siege the other kingdoms decide they cant risk stripping their own kingdoms short of soldiers in case they are next. Now Lorderan has to deal with a massive zombie outbreak all by itself. Good luck!

    And malganis totally would do that because the entire point is to weaken the various kingdoms so the legion can break through and take over with minimal resistance. He loses nothing by keeping it up because its not like it costs him anything even if the undead get wiped out. Its still yet another town or village turned undead and sent against the living, weakening the kingdom from both directions. Best case he wipes out the living. Worst case he loses his cultists. Anything in between that is still a victory for the legion, if not a total one. And even the worst case means little to him or his side as the undead are just a convenient tool to be used then discarded when finished. Even if my theory of malganis hitting the other human kingdoms to keep them focused on their own problems doesnt happen, again we are talking weeks or longer before a unified force can arrive. Weeks during which the undead plague is growing larger and larger and engulfing more and more of lorderan. It could very well reach a tipping point where they arent able to stop it. And even if they do eventually stop it, at what cost? Lorderan is likely all but destroyed, and the losses incurred by wiping out the undead plague are going to be very VERY high for everyone involved. Sure they may still remain intact themselves, but greatly weakened and ripe for further efforts by the dreadlords.
    "Interdum feror cupidine partium magnarum Europae vincendarum"
    Translation: "Sometimes I get this urge to conquer large parts of Europe."

    Quote Originally Posted by Nerd-o-rama View Post
    Traab is yelling everything that I'm thinking already.
    "If you don't get those cameras out of my face, I'm gonna go 8.6 on the Richter scale with gastric emissions that'll clear this room."

  10. - Top - End - #160
    Banned
     
    LansXero's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    Lima, Peru
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: When did the trogg invasion of gnomergan happen?

    And even the EK are secondary. The prize is the Book of Medivh in Dalaran; as soon as they mobilize elsewhere, if a Dreadlord or three beeline into it and get to summoning Archimonde its game over for the EK anyways. The vaunted Kirin Tor, greatest mages of the Alliance, got their city wiped out in minutes as an afterthought.

  11. - Top - End - #161
    Spamalot in the Playground
     
    Psyren's Avatar

    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: When did the trogg invasion of gnomergan happen?

    Quote Originally Posted by Traab View Post
    You are assuming that it all stops there with the stratholme army and its backup defeated. We have absolutely no reason to believe that it would be.
    We have every reason to believe that, because DK Arthas' army came from Northrend - not just Stratholme. No stupidly running off to Northrend, no faction-sized army. His knowledge of how to bring back KT also came from having gone to Northrend.

    Quote Originally Posted by LansXero View Post
    And even the EK are secondary. The prize is the Book of Medivh in Dalaran; as soon as they mobilize elsewhere, if a Dreadlord or three beeline into it and get to summoning Archimonde its game over for the EK anyways. The vaunted Kirin Tor, greatest mages of the Alliance, got their city wiped out in minutes as an afterthought.
    Except as stated, they needed Arthas to go to Northrend for an army (not just Stratholme and a couple of Dreadlords) to hold the line long enough for Archimonde to show up. Getting the book wasn't the win, Kel'thuzad completing the long ritual from said book was. Had Arthas never gone, the Scourge would have never succeeded at bringing him in (hell, they might not even have gotten to the Sunwell to revive Kel'thuzad, or gotten Medivh's book o begin with) and Dalaran would not have fallen.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
    Plague Doctor by Crimmy
    Ext. Sig (Handbooks/Creations)

  12. - Top - End - #162
    Colossus in the Playground
     
    Kish's Avatar

    Join Date
    Nov 2004

    Default Re: When did the trogg invasion of gnomergan happen?

    When Arthas initially discovered the poisoned grain, he had available to him whatever options a ridiculously powerful archmage and the head of the Knights of the Silver Hand could have come up with and/or arranged. What those are, will never be revealed because he immediately drove both those people off by jumping straight to murderdeathkill, with a side of "how dare you question me!"

    Even without all the blaring "this is Arthas making the wrong choice" klaxons, I still wouldn't be getting on the "he did what he had to do" train.

    It's a rare thing for me to agree with the Blizzard writers' moral sense, these days; it's good to be reminded that wasn't always the case.

  13. - Top - End - #163
    Banned
    Join Date
    May 2007

    Default Re: When did the trogg invasion of gnomergan happen?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kish View Post
    When Arthas initially discovered the poisoned grain, he had available to him whatever options a ridiculously powerful archmage and the head of the Knights of the Silver Hand could have come up with and/or arranged. What those are, will never be revealed because he immediately drove both those people off by jumping straight to murderdeathkill, with a side of "how dare you question me!"

    Even without all the blaring "this is Arthas making the wrong choice" klaxons, I still wouldn't be getting on the "he did what he had to do" train.

    It's a rare thing for me to agree with the Blizzard writers' moral sense, these days; it's good to be reminded that wasn't always the case.
    Saying "these people could have done something" when those people were actually there and contributed literally nothing at all isn't particularly compelling.

  14. - Top - End - #164
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    ElfRogueGirl

    Join Date
    Jun 2018

    Default Re: When did the trogg invasion of gnomergan happen?

    Quote Originally Posted by Anteros View Post
    Saying "these people could have done something" when those people were actually there and contributed literally nothing at all isn't particularly compelling.
    I'll again remind you that that they literally didn't have time to contribute anything because Arthas drove them both away thirty seconds after he made his decision to purge Stratholme.

  15. - Top - End - #165
    Titan in the Playground
     
    AssassinGuy

    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: When did the trogg invasion of gnomergan happen?

    Quote Originally Posted by Resileaf View Post
    I'll again remind you that that they literally didn't have time to contribute anything because Arthas drove them both away thirty seconds after he made his decision to purge Stratholme.
    He didnt exactly attack them. Jaina chose to leave of her own accord, Arthas had actually expected her to say. Uther meanwhile is still a paladin and has considerable experience and authority, even if Arthas tried to strip him of it. If they actually had an alternative, they had plenty of opportunity to present it or try to implement it on their own.
    “Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”

  16. - Top - End - #166
    Colossus in the Playground
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    right behind you

    Default Re: When did the trogg invasion of gnomergan happen?

    Quote Originally Posted by Anteros View Post
    Saying "these people could have done something" when those people were actually there and contributed literally nothing at all isn't particularly compelling.
    Exactly this. And in addition, its been a couple decades in universe since these events took place and nobody, not the silver hand, not the kirin tor, nobody, has managed to come up with a way to cure undeath. Arthas' original plan was to stop the grain shipments, not to just murder everyone and everything. Unfortunately, by the time he learned where the huge shipment of grain was going, it was too late, it had been dispersed and eaten. Even with 20 years of hindsight, there is no idea that comes to mind that would have lessened the death toll once stratholme was infected.

    And Psyren, there is no reason to think that malganis or one of the other dreadlords couldnt have done the same thing to bring back kelthuzad. The final mission could have just as easily been KT casting the ritual while the three dreadlords and their forces protected him instead of arthas. Arthas didnt wander through lorderan and silvermoon at the head of a premade army. He had to setup his undead production abilities as he went and build it as he moved further through the lands. And even if that was the case, they wouldnt have to give up on turning arthas. An extended campaign where he is forced to fight armies of his own people turned into zombies, along with a few extra atrocities for flavor and constant mockery by malganis, its entirely possible that eventually he would break and go to northrend anyways.
    "Interdum feror cupidine partium magnarum Europae vincendarum"
    Translation: "Sometimes I get this urge to conquer large parts of Europe."

    Quote Originally Posted by Nerd-o-rama View Post
    Traab is yelling everything that I'm thinking already.
    "If you don't get those cameras out of my face, I'm gonna go 8.6 on the Richter scale with gastric emissions that'll clear this room."

  17. - Top - End - #167
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    ElfRogueGirl

    Join Date
    Jun 2018

    Default Re: When did the trogg invasion of gnomergan happen?

    Quote Originally Posted by Keltest View Post
    He didnt exactly attack them. Jaina chose to leave of her own accord, Arthas had actually expected her to say. Uther meanwhile is still a paladin and has considerable experience and authority, even if Arthas tried to strip him of it. If they actually had an alternative, they had plenty of opportunity to present it or try to implement it on their own.
    Jaina left because Arthas made it clear that anyone who didn't want to follow his plan was his enemy. Uther was stripped of his authority and leadership position, if he tried to do anything to stop Arthas, it would have been actual treason, and would have been the absolute worst thing he could have done in the current situation. It's not like he could act in secret either, Arthas and his men would be scouring the entire city immediately.

    Quote Originally Posted by Traab View Post
    Exactly this. And in addition, its been a couple decades in universe since these events took place and nobody, not the silver hand, not the kirin tor, nobody, has managed to come up with a way to cure undeath.
    Except someone has managed to come up with a way to cure undeath. Grand Apothecary Putress (yes, the guy who betrayed both factions at the Wrathgate) saved both factions during the pre-Wrath event by finding a way to cure the zombie outbreak.
    Last edited by Resileaf; 2020-06-20 at 12:12 PM.

  18. - Top - End - #168
    Titan in the Playground
     
    AssassinGuy

    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: When did the trogg invasion of gnomergan happen?

    Quote Originally Posted by Resileaf View Post
    Jaina left because Arthas made it clear that anyone who didn't want to follow his plan was his enemy. Uther was stripped of his authority and leadership position, if he tried to do anything to stop Arthas, it would have been actual treason, and would have been the absolute worst thing he could have done in the current situation. It's not like he could act in secret either, Arthas and his men would be scouring the entire city immediately.
    As Uther reminds Arthas, Uther is his superior, and Arthas is not king. Uther leaves because he's disgusted with Arthas, not because Arthas has any actual authority to dismiss him from his rank.

    And Uther had plenty of soldiers with him, soldiers loyal to him rather than Arthas. Had he been so inclined, he could easily have stayed and tried to figure out a different solution.
    “Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”

  19. - Top - End - #169
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    ElfRogueGirl

    Join Date
    Jun 2018

    Default Re: When did the trogg invasion of gnomergan happen?

    Quote Originally Posted by Keltest View Post
    As Uther reminds Arthas, Uther is his superior, and Arthas is not king. Uther leaves because he's disgusted with Arthas, not because Arthas has any actual authority to dismiss him from his rank.

    And Uther had plenty of soldiers with him, soldiers loyal to him rather than Arthas. Had he been so inclined, he could easily have stayed and tried to figure out a different solution.
    Staying would have forced him into armed conflict with Arthas, you really think Uther should have chanced that? Do you really think that King Terenas would have later taken Uther's side when he learned that the leader of the Silver Hand attacked his son? And do you think that the undead army would have just stayed put and waited for the two of them to stop their battle? No, staying and facing down Arthas would have turned a terrible situation into a disastrous one. Leaving was the only thing he could do once Arthas blew him off.

  20. - Top - End - #170
    Titan in the Playground
     
    AssassinGuy

    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: When did the trogg invasion of gnomergan happen?

    Quote Originally Posted by Resileaf View Post
    Staying would have forced him into armed conflict with Arthas, you really think Uther should have chanced that? Do you really think that King Terenas would have later taken Uther's side when he learned that the leader of the Silver Hand attacked his son? And do you think that the undead army would have just stayed put and waited for the two of them to stop their battle? No, staying and facing down Arthas would have turned a terrible situation into a disastrous one. Leaving was the only thing he could do once Arthas blew him off.
    Frankly, yes, i think Terenas would have taken Uther's side if Arthas had attacked Uther for not slaughtering the population of a city on the prince's command.

    beyond which, Arthas was busy purging the city and fighting Mal'ganis. he doesnt have to fight or confront Arthas, just stick around and try something else. Leaving was pretty much the worst thing he could do in this situation, since Arthas is killing the city anyway, and now he isnt even trying to stop it.
    “Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”

  21. - Top - End - #171
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    ElfRogueGirl

    Join Date
    Jun 2018

    Default Re: When did the trogg invasion of gnomergan happen?

    Quote Originally Posted by Keltest View Post
    Frankly, yes, i think Terenas would have taken Uther's side if Arthas had attacked Uther for not slaughtering the population of a city on the prince's command.

    beyond which, Arthas was busy purging the city and fighting Mal'ganis. he doesnt have to fight or confront Arthas, just stick around and try something else. Leaving was pretty much the worst thing he could do in this situation, since Arthas is killing the city anyway, and now he isnt even trying to stop it.
    No way Terenas would take Uther's side. If he had, he wouldn't have just let Arthas take the whole damn army and bring it to Northrend. Terenas trusted his son.

    Stick around where? Stratholme has like, two entrances, one of which is blocked by Arthas' camp. He couldn't possibly have hidden anywhere and acted in secrecy.

  22. - Top - End - #172
    Titan in the Playground
     
    AssassinGuy

    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: When did the trogg invasion of gnomergan happen?

    Quote Originally Posted by Resileaf View Post
    No way Terenas would take Uther's side. If he had, he wouldn't have just let Arthas take the whole damn army and bring it to Northrend. Terenas trusted his son.

    Stick around where? Stratholme has like, two entrances, one of which is blocked by Arthas' camp. He couldn't possibly have hidden anywhere and acted in secrecy.
    Point of order: he didnt let arthas take the army. He had the troops recalled, specifically at Uther's request. Arthas had to bend over backwards pretty far to get around that while still appearing to remain legitimately in command.

    Also, Uther has an army too. He can just set up camp somewhere outside the gates. What's Arthas going to do, ignore Mal'ganis to come pick a fight with Uther over not standing at a respectable enough distance?
    “Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”

  23. - Top - End - #173
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    ElfRogueGirl

    Join Date
    Jun 2018

    Default Re: When did the trogg invasion of gnomergan happen?

    Quote Originally Posted by Keltest View Post
    Point of order: he didnt let arthas take the army. He had the troops recalled, specifically at Uther's request. Arthas had to bend over backwards pretty far to get around that while still appearing to remain legitimately in command.

    Also, Uther has an army too. He can just set up camp somewhere outside the gates. What's Arthas going to do, ignore Mal'ganis to come pick a fight with Uther over not standing at a respectable enough distance?
    He had the troops recalled after an entire month of trying to convince him. That's an entire month that Terenas was in agreement with Arthas taking the army to Northrend.

    And yes, absolutely. Arthas had made it clear that everyone who was not on his side of this battle was an enemy and he would accept no dissent. If Uther parked his army (whatever was left of it that wasn't with Arthas anyway) somewhere close by with intentions to interefere with the purging, Arthas would absolutely have taken on Uther as well.

  24. - Top - End - #174
    Titan in the Playground
     
    AssassinGuy

    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: When did the trogg invasion of gnomergan happen?

    Quote Originally Posted by Resileaf View Post
    He had the troops recalled after an entire month of trying to convince him. That's an entire month that Terenas was in agreement with Arthas taking the army to Northrend.

    And yes, absolutely. Arthas had made it clear that everyone who was not on his side of this battle was an enemy and he would accept no dissent. If Uther parked his army (whatever was left of it that wasn't with Arthas anyway) somewhere close by with intentions to interefere with the purging, Arthas would absolutely have taken on Uther as well.
    Theres no evidence that it took a month to convince Terenas, thats just how long it took for the recall order to get there. Furthermore, dont forget that Uther had to travel to the Capital City to make his case while Arthas was sailing.

    And while yes, Arthas would have fought Uther if Uther was going to just stop the purge with no alternative, Arthas doesnt want to kill his people. If Uther had an alternative that would save them without killing them, then Arthas would be open to it if it could be demonstrated to work.

    But even beyond that, Uther is a paladin. He's supposed to be taking the hard jobs out of principle.
    “Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”

  25. - Top - End - #175
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    ElfRogueGirl

    Join Date
    Jun 2018

    Default Re: When did the trogg invasion of gnomergan happen?

    Quote Originally Posted by Keltest View Post
    Theres no evidence that it took a month to convince Terenas, thats just how long it took for the recall order to get there. Furthermore, dont forget that Uther had to travel to the Capital City to make his case while Arthas was sailing.

    And while yes, Arthas would have fought Uther if Uther was going to just stop the purge with no alternative, Arthas doesnt want to kill his people. If Uther had an alternative that would save them without killing them, then Arthas would be open to it if it could be demonstrated to work.

    But even beyond that, Uther is a paladin. He's supposed to be taking the hard jobs out of principle.
    It took three days between Stratholme's purge and Arthas being already gone from Lordaeron. Can't have taken very long for Uther to reach the Capital city. The recall order came from zeppelin, and flying zeppelins are naturally much faster than sailing ships. It may not have taken a full month for Uther to convince Terenas, but it certainly didn't happen in a few days either.

    Arthas being willing to slaughter every single citizen of Stratholme irrespective of their state of infection indicates otherwise on his willingness to kill his people.

    Uther is a Warcraft paladin, not a D&D paladin. Warcraft paladins don't have the code of conduct of D&D.
    Last edited by Resileaf; 2020-06-20 at 01:57 PM.

  26. - Top - End - #176
    Titan in the Playground
     
    AssassinGuy

    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: When did the trogg invasion of gnomergan happen?

    Quote Originally Posted by Resileaf View Post
    It took three days between Stratholme's purge and Arthas being already gone from Lordaeron. Can't have taken very long for Uther to reach the Capital city. The recall order came from zeppelin, and flying zeppelins are naturally much faster than sailing ships. It may not have taken a full month for Uther to convince Terenas, but it certainly didn't happen in a few days either.

    Arthas being willing to slaughter every single citizen of Stratholme irrespective of their state of infection indicates otherwise on his willingness to kill his people.

    Uther is a Warcraft paladin, not a D&D paladin. Warcraft paladins don't have the code of conduct of D&D.
    Warcraft paladins DO have the code of conduct of D&D, they just dont lose their powers for failing to uphold it.

    Also, Arthas didnt slaughter every citizen, because we later see a bunch of citizens on cleanup duty in the city.

    Also, i'd like to see a source on zepplins being faster than ships. This is goblin tech youre talking about. That it works at all is a minor miracle.
    “Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”

  27. - Top - End - #177
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    ElfRogueGirl

    Join Date
    Jun 2018

    Default Re: When did the trogg invasion of gnomergan happen?

    Quote Originally Posted by Keltest View Post
    Warcraft paladins DO have the code of conduct of D&D, they just dont lose their powers for failing to uphold it.

    Also, Arthas didnt slaughter every citizen, because we later see a bunch of citizens on cleanup duty in the city.

    Also, i'd like to see a source on zepplins being faster than ships. This is goblin tech youre talking about. That it works at all is a minor miracle.
    No they don't. Paladins were created to be an elite corps of warrior priests against the Horde during the second War. Whatever code they have is no different than any code from some knightly order or religious order, and said code would be specific to the Silver Hand and no other order (such as the Blood Knights or Sunwalkers or whatever order of paladins Stormwind has).

    Seems more likely that those other citizens were brought from neighboring villages to do cleanup. The story makes it pretty clear that everyone within the walls of Stratholme is slain during the Purge.

    Goblin tech may be notorious for many reasons, but zeppelins are generally not subject to this (their pilots are a different matter, but that's another story). In the absence of proof that there was a delay for the king's emissary to arrive to Northrend, I do not believe that we should assume that there was one.

  28. - Top - End - #178
    Colossus in the Playground
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    right behind you

    Default Re: When did the trogg invasion of gnomergan happen?

    Maybe it was covered in a novel but I dont recall it ever being mentioned in game if arthas had permission to go to northrend or just took his men and left. Each case makes a big difference in both how long it would take uther to convince the king to recall him and also to FIND arthas and his men in northrend. For all we know it took uther a month to convince the king that arthas was not making the right choice, to change his mind if he had permission. Or it took a month for uther to reach the capitol, tell the king what crazy stuff was going on, and figure out specifically where to send the messenger if they had no idea where specifically arthas was. Northrend is a very big place after all.
    "Interdum feror cupidine partium magnarum Europae vincendarum"
    Translation: "Sometimes I get this urge to conquer large parts of Europe."

    Quote Originally Posted by Nerd-o-rama View Post
    Traab is yelling everything that I'm thinking already.
    "If you don't get those cameras out of my face, I'm gonna go 8.6 on the Richter scale with gastric emissions that'll clear this room."

  29. - Top - End - #179
    Banned
     
    LansXero's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    Lima, Peru
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: When did the trogg invasion of gnomergan happen?

    Quote Originally Posted by Keltest View Post
    Warcraft paladins DO have the code of conduct of D&D, they just dont lose their powers for failing to uphold it.

    Also, Arthas didnt slaughter every citizen, because we later see a bunch of citizens on cleanup duty in the city.

    Also, i'd like to see a source on zepplins being faster than ships. This is goblin tech youre talking about. That it works at all is a minor miracle.
    The Horde zeps are all goblin run and pretty stable. But the messenger probably didnt travel from Capital City in a zeppelin, he probably sailed a part of the way then into the cold areas he flew.

    Terenas is not just Uther's king, he is his war buddy from all the way back to the 2nd war. Arthas, while the crown prince, is also in training; reigning in his mistakes is Uther's job. Why didnt he stay and detain him? I mean, if it showed Uther making a stand and Arthas' men pointing weapons at him, then sure. But he didnt, he got offended and walked away in silence. He doesn't even stick around to at least witness the citizens' deaths and provide accurate account in the unavoidable coming investigation.

    The thing is, the Alliance already lost their best and brightest, locked behind the Portal. Whats left is the 'best' in absence of those who died or sacrificed themselves.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •