Are there rules of Madness? How to simulate paranoia?

[Nikushimi]

Hey there! My players are approaching an area that plays with the mind.

It tricks people into attacking their allies, causing paranoia, etc.

Some of my players have trouble roleplaying certain aspects. Most typically whenever something emotional happens we get back an "Okay." despite them literally watching an orphanage burn down, or their party members drop. They play very "Okay....?"

At least, that's just one of the players honestly. Another metagames a lot.

All that aside, this area they are coming to plays tricks on the mind. A group of soldiers was sent here previously to investigate, and only one survived because the madness took them and they basically began slaughtering each other.

This area plays on their minds. Bringing up their fears, their hopes, their dreams, and even making their allies look like enemies.

The entire area is covered in a fog that hangs low to the ground and is perpetually overcast.
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My question is, how do I simulate or impose madness on players? Are there any spells or rules that can help in this regards?

I have an idea of having the fog grow thicker and obscure vision, even separating them all. No matter how they shout, their voices just echo.

So, I'm basically asking if anyone knows rules to madness, if there are any in 2nd edition and what book they are in.

Also, how would you rule in such a situation? Thank you.

EDIT: Also, what saving throw, or type of roll would you have the players make to see if they fall for such a trick? Would you have them roll a saving throw vs spell or something else? Would you have it be a straight Wisdom check with or without penalties? Thanks for the input.

[LibraryOgre]

I don't know off-hand, but I'd say Ravenloft would be the most likely to have such rules. I'll try to remember to check Domains of Dread (the late 2e Ravenloft Compendium) when I get a chance.

[Nikushimi]

I don't know off-hand, but I'd say Ravenloft would be the most likely to have such rules. I'll try to remember to check Domains of Dread (the late 2e Ravenloft Compendium) when I get a chance.

I'd appreciate it.

Also, if you possibly have any idea of a monster, or creature, that generates such effects or would be useful to use in such a situation, I'd appreciate that too.

But mainly I'm looking for rules on how to deal with madness and what to do with it.

[LibraryOgre]

I'd appreciate it.

Also, if you possibly have any idea of a monster, or creature, that generates such effects or would be useful to use in such a situation, I'd appreciate that too.

But mainly I'm looking for rules on how to deal with madness and what to do with it.

First thought THERE is the Feyr, but I don't recall a lot of specifics, and it is WAY late.

As for madness rules, Domains of Dread DOES have them, but they're mid-90s madness rules... roll d20, with modifiers, and beat a madness check number determined by your class and level. Results could be Depression, it could be Schizophrenia. It's not as bad as Palladium's "Getting hit in the head might make you a sexual deviant", (which, because they used the DSM-II, included queer sexualities) but it's not a subtle tool.

[Digitalelf]

As for madness rules, Domains of Dread DOES have them, but they're mid-90s madness rules...

These rules first appeared in the "Forbidden Lore" Boxed set, and are the same... Referenced just in case one or the other is difficult to find in printed format.

The rules themselves, are VERY similar to "Call of Cthulhu's" rules regarding madness, and can be used just as easily with very little modification.

[D+1]

My question is, how do I simulate or impose madness on players?

In 1E/2E any infliction of some form of insanity is effectively a request by the DM to the player to VOLUNTARILY play along. There are few rules to FORCE players to run their characters in the ways needed to simulate madness of any type. In the 1E dmg for example dipsomania simply means that the affected character will drink until passing out EVERY TIME they get near large quantities of alcohol, or do so once a week in any case. Similarly kleptomania means stealing small items whenever the opportunity presents itself. Those aren't really situations where the player needs to do anything - the DM simply notes when conditions are right and then the insanity behavior occurs. But with a lot of the other forms of insanity they just can't really be played out unless A) the DM simply runs the character or B) the player actually willingly portrays the required behavior. But what if the player refuses to do that - EVER? The PC is effectively removed from play as the DM is then required to control all the characters behaviors. The player may as well just roll up a whole new PC for the remainder of the campaign, or at least until the first is cured.

Are there any spells or rules that can help in this regards?

Only advice that you be VERY judicious about inflicting insanity on the PC's when the players WON'T play along with it. Because there are few/no rules to make them do what is necessary you have to make those rules up yourself - and players react badly when the DM just ends up running their PC's for them. And rightfully so. Unless you're prepared to simply have afflicted PC's removed from the game unless/until cured when players won't cooperate in their own characters self-destruction, leave insanity alone.

It's an offer to players of a roleplaying challenge. Players don't really have to accept that challenge if they don't want it - and some players simply DON'T have that kind of roleplaying ability even if they WERE willing. If they don't/won't then there's no reason for either the DM or the player to keep that character involved in the game. Just retire them as insane and roll a new PC. If this is only meant to be a temporary effect or you DO intend to provide the cure more easily than it might seem - how are the PLAYERS supposed to know that? They're only going to see that their PC is heavily or totally screwed and react accordingly. So again - it's up to you as DM to expect bad reactions to it, give good solid indications that it won't be as bad/long-term as it SEEMS, or have THAT MUCH faith in the willingness and skills of your players to roleplay it the way YOU want it roleplayed.

It's one thing to simply invoke Confusion spell effects. It's QUITE another to inflict insanity.

And then there's the question of obtaining a cure. The ONLY default means of curing insanity are Wish, Heal (still a maybe in 1E, not sure about 2E), and Staff of Curing. And that extreme inability to obtain a cure pretty much says that if you as DM choose to inflict it you ARE prepared to just have the PC removed from the game - unless you quickly follow it up with one of those cures.

[AugustNights]

I know it's 3.5, technically, but the Sanity system ports to AD&D surprisingly well.

I reverse it and call it "Stress," as that more accurately reflects how nuerodivergence arises from repeat traumatic experiences, but YMMV.
It's working great for my Horror Based AD&D podcast.

[LibraryOgre]

On the "How to simulate paranoia", I had a fun one that, while it might not be applicable, I still like to brag about.

https://rpgcrank.blogspot.com/2017/1...ge-curses.html

A curse often laid by gynosphinxes on those who provide them with false information, the Curse of the All-Seeing Eye is sometimes useful, but often, insidiously, drives its recipient mad. This curse may also be cast as a spell; 5th level for wizards and druids, 4th level for Clerics and illusionists. Touch range and conditionally permanent, it allows a save to resist if laid by a mortal... not so if laid by a furious gynosphinx.

The character is cursed with the ability to see invisible creatures... however, they also suffer from delusions, which are indistinguishable (for them) from an invisible creature. Upon gaining the curse, roll 1d6; the character will see that many hallucinatory invisible creatures within three hours. Each day, they will also see 1d6 hallucinatory creatures. Every time they see a truly invisible creatures, however, add 1d4; they will see that many more hallucinations within the next 24 hours (in addition to the 1d6 each day). Each month the character suffers this curse, they must roll under their Wisdom on 3d6 or lose 1 point of Wisdom as their sanity degrades; Wisdom lost in this way recovers only with the application of Restoration (in Hackmaster, there is no way for a 20th level or lower character to cure this injury).

The curse can be broken in numerous ways. A standard remove curse is only effective 50% of the time. Any Gynosphinx (not just the one who laid it), however, can remove the curse at will... they will frequently demand several thousand gold worth of gems or jewelery, or some riddle they cannot solve (but do not regard as an evasion or otherwise unsolvable... they'll not free you because they cannot guess what is in your pocket!)

[Endarire]

What are your thoughts on adapting taint rules from D&D 3.5?

https://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/campaigns/taint.htm

[Lacco]

Step 1: Read up on madness rules from Trail of Cthulhu
Step 2: Get player buy-in.
Step 3: Enjoy!

Trail of Cthulhu - I do not own the books but I read through them when a friend brought them once - has a nice framework for madness. From what I remember: it uses also OOC techniques to simulate madness.

Example: paranoia. The GM starts sending other players secret notes like crazy - with instructions as "Look at me and smile", strange symbols, anything. The other players should be forewarned that they should expect strange stuff like this. Paranoia could start with sending the player out and informing others that the character will now start acting very weird and they should be vary because they all sense strange stuff about him. When the player returns, all eyes should be on him, nervous smiles, etc.

As said before: getting player buy-in is essential. There was a disclaimer in the old PC game Call of Cthulhu that "This game may manipulate your perception to simulate madness" - you definitely should warn your players. If they want to play stuff like this, it's a lot of fun - if not, you are wishing for trouble. I personally witnessed two players, one with paranoia and the other with delusion, who had a blast roleplaying their afflictions. The delusional one got an instruction "The artifact X and everything connected with it does not exist. If people speak about it, ask about it, do anything - you did not hear them. You did not see it, you will not perceive it in any way."

The paranoic one was already on the edge as everybody acted crazy (he even asked few times why everybody acted so crazy; the other players were instructed to dismiss it in any way possible, the more far-fetched the explanations were the better) and when the other player just ignored anything about the dangers of X, he almost went berserk.

Again - they enjoyed it, because they expected it and went with it. And afterwards they both said it felt strange but it was a powerful and great experience. On the other hand, neither of them wanted to play CoC again

[sktarq]

with something like paranoia...just describe things to that player like things are big and scary, describe shadows etc.

also works well for hallucinations.

It helps to have buy in from the player of the nuts character but also the rest of the players too. Work out a code with the other party members so they know when you are describing something not there or not as scary.

Oh the fun I've had with unreal trains and invisible pomeranians in the middle of game nights.