Crazy Idea Mafia

[Elenna]

Would I lie to you?

Yes. Yes, you would.

[AvatarVecna]

The intention is that the reveal only works once. I should maybe have made that more clear.

Statistically speaking, at least one player just went "welp im boned".

[Xihirli]

Yes. Yes, you would.

I don't have the memory for a liar!

At least not a good one.

[Snowblaze]

Does this now make it good strategy to lynch all Innocent Children before their conversion? (No, if I'm being sensible it makes it good strategy for Innocent Children never to reveal themselves.)

And yeah, this is terrible for town.

[AvatarVecna]

Does this now make it good strategy to lynch all Innocent Children before their conversion? (No, if I'm being sensible it makes it good strategy for Innocent Children never to reveal themselves.)

And yeah, this is terrible for town.

This is a bit reductive. The point of the Innocent Child role is a 1/game self-Day Bane, more or less, and it functions just fine here. Innocent Child declaring themselves if they're leading the lynch makes it that much less likely that we'll mislynch a townie. Depending on how late in the game this occurs, it also means we can look at the reads and analysis and thoughts the Innocent Child made before their claim with the absolute certainty that those reads/analysis weren't coming from a bad faith actor in another faction. Furthermore, discussion that night with the Innocent Child is also certain to be a townie helping out town. The next day, they once more become an uncertain source, but that just means you can compare their post-claim reads with their pre-claim reads to spot discrepancies.

The name of the game is information, and specifically how much you can trust various people. A seer claim you're not sure you can trust is worthless, while a vanillager claim you have 100% certainty in is priceless. Consider if on D3 of a normal game, somebody claims baner to get out of the lynch; should the seer who hasn't public-claimed contact the baner to get a bane tonight, risking that the baner-claim is fake, or do they confide and conspire with the two townies they've hard-cleared via scries? I certainly know which one I'd trust.

EDIT: Maybe worthless and priceless are strong words, but the point still stands. Town doesn't know who they can trust and has to think of why a person might say what they said if they were a wolf, or a cultist, or an alien, or whatever; if you know for sure that a person was town, then you can skip the "if theyre a lying member of a rival faction, what are they lying about and why" step and go straight to "this person is definitely town, so all these posts are them at least trying to help town".

[Valmark]

This is a bit reductive. The point of the Innocent Child role is a 1/game self-Day Bane, more or less, and it functions just fine here. Innocent Child declaring themselves if they're leading the lynch makes it that much less likely that we'll mislynch a townie. Depending on how late in the game this occurs, it also means we can look at the reads and analysis and thoughts the Innocent Child made before their claim with the absolute certainty that those reads/analysis weren't coming from a bad faith actor in another faction. Furthermore, discussion that night with the Innocent Child is also certain to be a townie helping out town. The next day, they once more become an uncertain source, but that just means you can compare their post-claim reads with their pre-claim reads to spot discrepancies.

The name of the game is information, and specifically how much you can trust various people. A seer claim you're not sure you can trust is worthless, while a vanillager claim you have 100% certainty in is priceless. Consider if on D3 of a normal game, somebody claims baner to get out of the lynch; should the seer who hasn't public-claimed contact the baner to get a bane tonight, risking that the baner-claim is fake, or do they confide and conspire with the two townies they've hard-cleared via scries? I certainly know which one I'd trust.

EDIT: Maybe worthless and priceless are strong words, but the point still stands. Town doesn't know who they can trust and has to think of why a person might say what they said if they were a wolf, or a cultist, or an alien, or whatever; if you know for sure that a person was town, then you can skip the "if theyre a lying member of a rival faction, what are they lying about and why" step and go straight to "this person is definitely town, so all these posts are them at least trying to help town".

Only thing to mention, there's a lack of night-usefulness in this specific game because we can't talk between each other during the night- the rest I agree with homewever.

[BasketOfPuppies]

AvatarVecna as revenge for the werewolf game I ran. Also, sorry for posting so late; my internet was out yesterday.

[Aventine]

Does this now make it good strategy to lynch all Innocent Children before their conversion? (No, if I'm being sensible it makes it good strategy for Innocent Children never to reveal themselves.)

And yeah, this is terrible for town.

This is a bit reductive. The point of the Innocent Child role is a 1/game self-Day Bane, more or less, and it functions just fine here. Innocent Child...
...

To be honest, I think AV's overthinking it here, and in the wrong direction. Normally, a revealed innocent child, by virtue of being narrator-confirmed town, is clear NK-bait. You get the standard, old WIFOM over what the baner might do (assuming there is one), but at the end of the day, scum really can't let a confirmed townie live to see a possible late-game.

A cult increases the uncertainty. Should they convert someone the killing factions are going to be very eager to kill? After all, it's better to convert people you think will survive. As a killing faction, should you hold off on killing them in the hopes town gets paranoid about the cult and kills them?

Best strategy for an Innocent is to survive to late-game without revealing, then reveal at or near LYLO to narrow the field of possible scum.

As for a forced earlier reveal. Let scum worry over the WIFOM of whether or not to kill/convert. From town's perspective, the possiblity of a conversion just makes them no longer confirmed town...which is going to be true of most people anyway.

---

I like stacking up and making wagons on day one rather than random off-wagon, single votes. But AV's being talkative, so I'll start a second on Duck.

[AvatarVecna]

To be honest, I think AV's overthinking it here, and in the wrong direction. Normally, a revealed innocent child, by virtue of being narrator-confirmed town, is clear NK-bait. You get the standard, old WIFOM over what the baner might do (assuming there is one), but at the end of the day, scum really can't let a confirmed townie live to see a possible late-game.

A cult increases the uncertainty. Should they convert someone the killing factions are going to be very eager to kill? After all, it's better to convert people you think will survive. As a killing faction, should you hold off on killing them in the hopes town gets paranoid about the cult and kills them?

Best strategy for an Innocent is to survive to late-game without revealing, then reveal at or near LYLO to narrow the field of possible scum.

As for a forced earlier reveal. Let scum worry over the WIFOM of whether or not to kill/convert. From town's perspective, the possiblity of a conversion just makes them no longer confirmed town...which is going to be true of most people anyway.

---

I like stacking up and making wagons on day one rather than random off-wagon, single votes. But AV's being talkative, so I'll start a second on Duck.

Yeah okay, best option for town is that Innocent coasts all the way to LYLO without getting killed/converted just as a matter of RNG, then revealing to make it obvious who the remaining scum are. But if the Innocent is up for the lynch, they should reveal. They know that if they don't reveal, town mislynches a townie 100%, and that if they do reveal, town mislynches a townie less than 100%. This also forces at least one of mafia/wolf/cult to at least heavily consider dealing with them in the night, rather than offing/converting somebody with a more useful power.

- - - Updated - - -

Also I know I'm kinda tightening my own noose a bit, but while I might've picked town on principle that I've gotten a lot better at playing town and have limited scum experience, the flipside is that I have been chomping at the bit for a scum role for awhile now. Stuff like that is stuff people might wanna consider, and not just about me. Not just "what kind of role does this player think is optimal for the game", but also just "what kinda role does would that player choose if they got to choose".

(Like, it's obviously only a guess, but if I was guessing what Xihirli would pick, I think she'd pick a non-town alignment and JOAT, to make herself hard to predict. Ideal would probably be JOAT Serial Killer but idk if she'd get that lucky lol.)

[gac3]

Lord Athos because they discarded protective and have no vote. Also they voted for me which is rude.

[Valmark]

Yeah okay, best option for town is that Innocent coasts all the way to LYLO without getting killed/converted just as a matter of RNG, then revealing to make it obvious who the remaining scum are. But if the Innocent is up for the lynch, they should reveal. They know that if they don't reveal, town mislynches a townie 100%, and that if they do reveal, town mislynches a townie less than 100%. This also forces at least one of mafia/wolf/cult to at least heavily consider dealing with them in the night, rather than offing/converting somebody with a more useful power.

- - - Updated - - -

Also I know I'm kinda tightening my own noose a bit, but while I might've picked town on principle that I've gotten a lot better at playing town and have limited scum experience, the flipside is that I have been chomping at the bit for a scum role for awhile now. Stuff like that is stuff people might wanna consider, and not just about me. Not just "what kind of role does this player think is optimal for the game", but also just "what kinda role does would that player choose if they got to choose".

(Like, it's obviously only a guess, but if I was guessing what Xihirli would pick, I think she'd pick a non-town alignment and JOAT, to make herself hard to predict. Ideal would probably be JOAT Serial Killer but idk if she'd get that lucky lol.)

On the same basis, I reckon Kgato was tired to be a wolf.

[Xihirli]

(Like, it's obviously only a guess, but if I was guessing what Xihirli would pick, I think she'd pick a non-town alignment and JOAT, to make herself hard to predict. Ideal would probably be JOAT Serial Killer but idk if she'd get that lucky lol.)

What's JOAT?

And when I saw you discarded aliens I was like "what? There's aliens? And I didn't draw that one?"
I got sad.

EDIT:

Spoiler: Role stuff

Show

The town are your bog-standard town. You're more likely to have lots of allies as town, but you don't get any special abilities.
The mafia and the werewolves are both ordinary mafia-style factions. Each one gets a nightkill, and each one has factional chat.
The aliens don't have a nightkill, but do get a factional chat. Any non-killing role is stronger on an alien than it is on any other faction.
The cult have a factional conversion. Any time the cult use their ability on a member of the town, that player joins the cult. Any time the cult use their ability on anyone else, the cult is informed of the faction (but not the role) of the target.

Oh would you look at that. Man, I would be way better at these games if I had a good attention span.

[AvatarVecna]

What's JOAT?

And when I saw you discarded aliens I was like "what? There's aliens? And I didn't draw that one?"
I got sad.

EDIT:

Spoiler: Role stuff

Show

The town are your bog-standard town. You're more likely to have lots of allies as town, but you don't get any special abilities.
The mafia and the werewolves are both ordinary mafia-style factions. Each one gets a nightkill, and each one has factional chat.
The aliens don't have a nightkill, but do get a factional chat. Any non-killing role is stronger on an alien than it is on any other faction.
The cult have a factional conversion. Any time the cult use their ability on a member of the town, that player joins the cult. Any time the cult use their ability on anyone else, the cult is informed of the faction (but not the role) of the target.

Oh would you look at that. Man, I would be way better at these games if I had a good attention span.

I'd say FoS on Xihirli for not reading the rules properly but...

[Xihirli]

Other letters.

[smasher0404]

If we're voting mostly blind, I'll vote for bc56 because only a guilty murderer person wouldn't want to look innocent, and they have fewer votes than AvatarVecna.

[AvatarVecna]

If we're voting mostly blind, I'll vote for bc56 because only a guilty murderer person wouldn't want to look innocent, and they have fewer votes than AvatarVecna.

If you murder a murderer before they've even gotten to murder somebody, doesn't that make you the real murderer?

[Valmark]

If you murder a murderer before they've even gotten to murder somebody, doesn't that make you the real murderer?

*Cues Psycho Pass op song*

[Xihirli]

Like what you all did in the Cruise Ship Mafia!

[Valmark]

Like what you all did in the Cruise Ship Mafia!

Actually, you did kill Basket. And before you the spies were, so...

Though admittedly, most games don't start with a death.

[BasketOfPuppies]

Xihirli: JOAT means Jack of all Trades.

[JoyWonderLove]

Duck999, kgato, and Avatar Venca are all really nice and really dangerous at the same time. Duck for being open-minded in his approach, kgato for being resourceful and creative, and AV for being great at communication. AV and kgato I'm willing to wait for a chance that they're on my side. But Duck999, how dare you? You have...stolen my dreams (of winning Harry Potter Mafia)! My childhood. With your empty words. And yet, I'm one of the lucky ones (because I got voted off before you betrayed my remaining team )!

[AvatarVecna]

Duck999, kgato, and Avatar Venca are all really nice and really dangerous at the same time. Duck for being open-minded in his approach, kgato for being resourceful and creative, and AV for being great at communication. AV and kgato I'm willing to wait for a chance that they're on my side. But Duck999, how dare you? You have...stolen my dreams (of winning Harry Potter Mafia)! My childhood. With your empty words. And yet, I'm one of the lucky ones (because I got voted off before you betrayed my remaining team )!

Having actual reasons to vote somebody on D1 is a violation of the law. Let's way JoyWonderLove against a duck and see what happens.

[Xihirli]

What kind of monster would kill an entire basket of puppies!?

[JoyWonderLove]

Having actual reasons to vote somebody on D1 is a violation of the law. Let's way JoyWonderLove against a duck and see what happens.

Hey, last time I spoke out against any crazy voting for day 1, a certain someone told me very clearly why I was silly for having a relax and reflect yoga style of voting. Now I'm all about wild speculation!

[Xihirli]

Duck999, kgato, and Avatar Venca are all really nice and really dangerous at the same time. Duck for being open-minded in his approach, kgato for being resourceful and creative, and AV for being great at communication. AV and kgato I'm willing to wait for a chance that they're on my side. But Duck999, how dare you? You have...stolen my dreams (of winning Harry Potter Mafia)! My childhood. With your empty words. And yet, I'm one of the lucky ones (because I got voted off before you betrayed my remaining team )!

Also are you saying I'm not nice, or I'm not dangerous?

[AvatarVecna]

Hey, last time I spoke out against any crazy voting for day 1, a certain someone told me very clearly why I was silly for having a relax and reflect yoga style of voting. Now I'm all about wild speculation!

Well I'm telling you now, don't let somebody else tell you how to play. I always tell kgato to play more, but ignoring me is working just fine for him.

[Valmark]

What kind of monster would kill an entire basket of puppies!?

You. Also depends on the puppies, I'd do it if they were all tick puppies.

[JoyWonderLove]

Also are you saying I'm not nice, or I'm not dangerous?

I'm saying everyone else is in a league of their own.

Well I'm telling you now, don't let somebody else tell you how to play. I always tell kgato to play more, but ignoring me is working just fine for him.

That first part of your post is so koan esque in its own way.....but I really do feel like I'm stumbling from one approach to another. I like and prefer Mafia games where everyone has powers, though. How about you?

[AvatarVecna]

I'm saying everyone else is in a league of their own.



That first part of your post is so koan esque in its own way.....but I really do feel like I'm stumbling from one approach to another. I like and prefer Mafia games where everyone has powers, though. How about you?

I'm still kinda like that too, games with lots of powers just make things go weirder, but I can also see why as you gain experience such games start losing their luster a bit. If you aren't all that good at the basic reads/analysis/pretending to be a townie part of werewolf, then vanillager is just so utterly boring because you're more or less guessing at who's lying about what and why. Having powers gives you some manner of way to affect the game even if you're not sure what the optimal move is - that you can affect the game state by doing nothing all game but blindly scrying/baning/whatever, just because it'll be something nobody else could predict.

Once you play through enough no/low PR games, and start getting a feel for what kinda tells people have, what general tells are more likely to be villager or wolf, you start realizing that all-PR games end up being all about the power roles. Figuring out who used what power when is more important than analyzing all of (for example) Xihirli's posts in isolation to see if there's a general pattern towards pro-village play or pro-wolf play, because the powers just matter that much more in such a game. Did nobody die last night because the target was baned, because the wolves were voided, because the wolves were vortexed, because the targets were vortexed, or because wolves are asleep at the helm? In a no-PR game, what happened becomes obvious. In an all-PR game, arranging the right maze of power usages within your network does (and in fact, did) become the focus.

Before I died in HP, I told flyinglemur to switch QT name to George Weasley and basically tell everybody in private "give me your name power alignment and goal. I'll tell you how to use your powers in the night and provide guidance on votes, and I'll try to accomodate neutrals." George didn't end up doing that, and tbh I'm not sure how well it would've worked even if he did, but the fact remains that doing that would be basically the only way to not get tripped up by somebody using a power in a weird way that you didn't predict.

Because that will happen. In an all-PR game, whatever plans you have for how things go in the night, whatever networks you try and form, you will absolutely get tripped up by somebody, because you are literally incapable of accounting for all possible role assignments and all possible power usages each role assignment would end up performing.

My entire plan would've gone right down the toilet if the wolves had the not-uncommon "true kill" power, that can't be prevented in any way and also doesn't tell town how that person flipped. My plan hinged on everybody in the game knowing they could trust that they were in contact with a mason they could absolutely trust to be town, and if my role was hidden by a true kill, it would've all been for nothing. Incidentally, my plan would've also been ruined by my mason partner auto-lynching, which almost freaking happened, but sometimes you just gotta give it your best shot and hope it works out.

All-PR games aren't boring to experienced players, they're just more frustrating in a very particular way. Still a whole lotta fun though.

- - - Updated - - -

Ultimately really, nobody's in charge of your fun but you. If you wanna ignore everything that goes on and occasionally chime in with your reads and analysis but refuse to engage with people questioning you...I've seen that work out okay. If you wanna spew random nonsense claims/accusations to get reactions out of people...I've seen that work out okay. If you wanna randomly roll 3-5 players each game to assume are wolves and question absolutely everything they do until they flip or the game ends...well I haven't seen that yet, but dedicating yourself to tunneling a handful of particular players might work okay?

Ultimately Mafia/WW has a very flexible meta-game. Any strategy optimal enough that everybody knows about it is a strategy that wolves know about and will be working to counter as best they can. This leads to ever-present Wine In Front Of Me situations - do I bane the publicly-claimed seer on the assumption wolves will target them, or do I bane somebody random on the assumption wolves will think I'm baning the seer, in the hopes of actually blocking the nightkill?

And you can think that way about every small decision, and every grand strategy. There's no perfect strategy to winning WW, and you gotta feel out what works for you - both in what you think you can actually pull off, and what you'd actually enjoy doing. A while back was in a game with a player who's strategy is "grief til you make it", and me and another more serious player basically had to bully them for being a useless griefer to actually get any real reads or analysis out of them. And it kinda made me sick to the point that I'm just gonna make that player a policy-lynch in future games with them, cuz I'd rather kill them for griefing than bully them 'til they don't grief any more. >.<

[JoyWonderLove]

Ignoring for a sec that was the most well informed explanation of different loves for different styles of Mafia games and different experience levels I'll ever read about this type of thing.....AV, you honestly sound like you cherish these Mafia games almost more than anything else on the site. But that can't be true; we have the OOTS comic.

Tbh I got lured by the comic and stayed for the community (there's even a mini Mafia community inside the gitp community - hi Valmark, Snowblaze, etc).