Crazy Idea Mafia

[Xihirli]

.......unless that alien was gac3.

[CaoimhinTheCape]

.......unless that alien was gac3.

gac3 was a universal backup, so I don't think he would have had any powers that night to do anything? And I don't see other framing roles or anything like that in the role options part.

I'm going to vote Duck999, based on Valmark's faction theory of Duck/trtl/bc. Don't have anything better to go on so might as well investigate it.

[Valmark]

.......unless that alien was gac3.

Can't be. If they were had been the only alien he'd have a scrying role, and if they weren't since no other alien has been killed they wouldn't have had the power to do it.

[Xihirli]

Could you run that by me one more time, please?

[Valmark]

Could you run that by me one more time, please?

Universal backups don't have a power unless someone else of their faction dies and if there's only the backup in a faction they get the investigative role.

For aliens it's a scry that reveals role and affiliation.

So gac3 couldn't possibly have been a mindslaver (the alien role that redirects powers)

[Apogee1]

Could you run that by me one more time, please?

Gac3 died as a universal backup. He discarded investigative, so if there were no other aliens he would have had that power. This implies more aliens.

[Xihirli]

I'm caught up.

[Apogee1]

So with the talk of mindslaver's I'm interested in how they interact with strongmen, because I don't think it's clear that a strongman could be mindslaved?

Relevant sections from OP:

Town, Mafia or Cult Roleblocker: Once per night, you can choose a player. That player cannot activate their ability this night.

Alien Mindslaver: Once per night, you can choose a player. That player cannot activate their ability this night. You may activate their ability by attempting to choose a new target for it. If you choose a valid target, you use their ability on that target.

Mafia Strongman: When you perform the factional kill, it can't be blocked.

The language is not clear but I (at least during in-person games) have played that strongmen aren't stopped by roleblockers, and mindslavers share the language of "player cannot activate their ability". Can we get the moderator to weigh in on how (theoretically) a mindslaver targeting a strongman would behave?

Sorry if I'm dragging on about the night phase but we don't have much information so I'm trying to figure out what I can.

[Valmark]

So with the talk of mindslaver's I'm interested in how they interact with strongmen, because I don't think it's clear that a strongman could be mindslaved?

Relevant sections from OP:



The language is not clear but I (at least during in-person games) have played that strongmen aren't stopped by roleblockers, and mindslavers share the language of "player cannot activate their ability". Can we get the moderator to weigh in on how (theoretically) a mindslaver targeting a strongman would behave?

Sorry if I'm dragging on about the night phase but we don't have much information so I'm trying to figure out what I can.

I mean, discussing what happened during the night phase is kind of one if the fundamental actions to take during the day, so no reason to be sorry.
On that note, yeah, info from Unavenger on this would help greatly I believe.

[Elenna]

Also, wow, that's a lot of town discards. I'm not really surprised, but still. Granted, some people might have gotten two town cards. (I doubt anyone would have three town cards since Unavenger said everyone should have a decent choice)

From the wording it looks like Elenna implies that she didn't get two town cards, since she said that only some people might have gotten two town cards and she expected way less townies.

Nah, I got two town cards (she says, knowing that it's a useless statement since anyone who discarded town would say that). I just thought it was an unlikely event and probably hadn't happened to most people, hence my comment on the number of town discards.

I haven't played before, how important are the narrator's details? For example, can we assume the aliens killed last night because of the message? Or is most of that stuff just fluff to make the game more entertaining?

Most of the time, the narrator details aren't important. But also, they mostly don't include specific details like signs from one faction, so IDK. I think it's intended to mean something in this game, not sure what though.
The phrasing of the reveals is usually important, i.e. I'd say that "Snowblaze was killed by a knife" is meant to be information we have, not just fluff. (The colour-coding also helps.)

Also, I forgot the aliens didn't have a kill, and also forgot survivor has NK-immune. Maybe an alien role-blocker targeted Snowblaze? Or the mafia strongman and alien vig both targeted Snowblaze, and the role reveal says the mafia killed her because they were the ones actually capable of killing her, but the aliens tried to take credit because they also aimed a kill at her?

Gac3 died as a universal backup. He discarded investigative, so if there were no other aliens he would have had that power. This implies more aliens.

@Unavenger: If a universal backup dies after receiving a power, will they be listed in the narration as "universal backup", or as the power they got? Also, is a role-blocker able to block a factional power like nightkill-immune?

[Unavenger]

The language is not clear but I (at least during in-person games) have played that strongmen aren't stopped by roleblockers, and mindslavers share the language of "player cannot activate their ability". Can we get the moderator to weigh in on how (theoretically) a mindslaver targeting a strongman would behave?

The strongman effect is not an active ability. It's a passive ability which makes the factional kill unblockable. Therefore, the strongman still gets the kill, and the mindslaver's copy effect only copies the kill, not the strongman effect.

@Unavenger: If a universal backup dies after receiving a power, will they be listed in the narration as "universal backup", or as the power they got? Also, is a role-blocker able to block a factional power like nightkill-immune?

The person's original role and death role will be revealed. You'll get a reveal like "They were a town universal backup but died as a cult fanatic", for example.

Roleblockers can block any activated ability, but not a passive ability.

[Apogee1]

The strongman effect is not an active ability. It's a passive ability which makes the factional kill unblockable. Therefore, the strongman still gets the kill, and the mindslaver's copy effect only copies the kill, not the strongman effect.

Alright so this seems to imply that Aliens either:

a) Also targeted a vig kill (either by them having a vigilante or mindslaving someone) towards Snowblaze that failed, and the mafia also strong-manned Snowblaze
b) Took some other action on Snowblaze
c) Snowblaze scried an alien before dying

Maybe I'm reading too much into the Alien bit, but hey, like Valmark said its not like we have much to go on otherwise.

[DukeGod]

We've also confirmed that gac wasn't the only Alien since he was the Universal Backup. Actually it implies...3 more?
(Investigative, Protective and the mindslaver?)

Now, my first vote on Duck999 was purely for personal reasons and it bit me back, but we morons never learn. Still it seems like an actually good target today

[Valmark]

We've also confirmed that gac wasn't the only Alien since he was the Universal Backup. Actually it implies...3 more?
(Investigative, Protective and the mindslaver?)

Now, my first vote on Duck999 was purely for personal reasons and it bit me back, but we morons never learn. Still it seems like an actually good target today

Yup, although flimsy as a theory there are reasons to lynch Duck. And it implies one more alien, not 3 (though there could be 3 more yeah)

Alright so this seems to imply that Aliens either:

a) Also targeted a vig kill (either by them having a vigilante or mindslaving someone) towards Snowblaze that failed, and the mafia also strong-manned Snowblaze
b) Took some other action on Snowblaze
c) Snowblaze scried an alien before dying

Maybe I'm reading too much into the Alien bit, but hey, like Valmark said its not like we have much to go on otherwise.

Snowblaze scrying one as alien looks weird, though could be. I say looks weird because even if she scried one there would be no reason to think she got killed by aliens.

There again, all the ideas look weird.

[Apogee1]

DukeGod at least until he explains why he thought those alien roles exist. Looks like he could have slipped up and gave out info his faction knows that we don't.

[Duck999]

I'm sticking with DukeGod. Yesterday he was on the first wagon then switched to the other when AV's fake claim came in. Today he's still just hopping on the only wagon that isn't him that appears to be forming so far.

Also, how do you see three more aliens? Doesn't Universal Backup only imply at least one more? I could see this just being confusion about the roles though.

Point being, this is a lot of following wagons and not much else.

EDIT: Ninja'd by Apogee. A little suspicious of that vote because it seems like the same kind of following that I'm complaining about DukeGod doing. And out of how DukeGod's been acting, what Apogee pointed out is the one thing that could just be a misunderstanding.

[trtl]

CaomhinTheCape

I'm going off his decision to vote No Lynch last night, after AV was revealed to be lying.

I know he said that falsely claiming town innocent seemed like a move a town person would make, but I've got two issues with that:

Firstly, I disagree, Town Innocent is one of the best abilities Town has, and introducing a whole bunch of paranoia and distrust around that ability, while also only saving yourself for, at most, one night, seems like a losing strategy in the long run.

Second, lets say CaomhinTheCape is right, or CaomhinTheCape was wrong but genuinely believed he was right. That still doesn't explain a No Lynch vote, if he truly believed AV was innocent, he should have voted for DukeGod and actively tried to save AV.

No Lynch sounds like CaomhinTheCape is in cahoots with both AV and DukeGod

This leaves two options in my mind

1: CaomhinTheCape simply was frozen in analysis paralysis and copped out with No Lynch

2: CaomhinTheCape and DukeGod are both mafia.

I don't know CaomhinTheCape so I can't rule out option 1, but this is the best evidence I've got to go off of.

My second vote would be DukeGod and if CaomhinTheCape looks like a losing wagon, I'll switch to DukeGod.

[Apogee1]

EDIT: Ninja'd by Apogee. A little suspicious of that vote because it seems like the same kind of following that I'm complaining about DukeGod doing. And out of how DukeGod's been acting, what Apogee pointed out is the one thing that could just be a misunderstanding.

Duck I really don't see how me voting Duke is in any way the "same kind of following". The only other vote on Duke was Valmark who put it there right at the start of the day? I'd barely started a wagon when Duke (like you said) hopped onto wagons towards the end yesterday and is on you today.

Also yeah the thing I pointed out could be a misunderstanding, but I figured the response would probably be telling and we are still in such a low information state any interaction is going to benefit town.

[DukeGod]

[DukeGod at least until he explains why he thought those alien roles exist. Looks like he could have slipped up and gave out info his faction knows that we don't.

Mindslaver has already been speculated by us for the "Aliens did this" thing in the night kill

We've established that at least one alien is alive because we're revelead death roles and gac3 had none, so his Backup power didn't activate. If he was the only alien he'd have gotten an investigative power, we've determined that earlier today aswell

What I think I got wrong was that if Alien Seer had never joined the game the backup would get their powers even with the rest of the alien roles alive to get the aliens a full suite of powers. It was a hasty assumption to make

[smasher0404]

Thing is, there are multiple factions. DukeGod and bc56 could easily be different factions, so the fact that one voted the other is kinda useless- for example, as far as mafia is concerned, wolves are roughly the equivalent of networked, kill-capable Town for winning the game.
And the reasoning on Duke is the same as last day, which I mentioned by quoting flat.

Thing is, assuming a roughly random distribution, the odds of DukeGod being a member of a non-Town faction goes down the more factions we rule out. He's less likely to be Cultist (if there are any left), because he voted for AvatarVecna before the fake Innocent reveal. He's not a part of bc56/Duck/trtl's hypothetical faction because bc56 cast their vote for DukeGod and the vote went down to the wire. That leaves 3 potential non-town factions of Mafia, Wolves, Aliens, and SK (depending on whether the trio's hypothetical faction is Mafia, Wolves, or Aliens).

That being said, I get the logic in regards to DukeGod jumping on the bandwagon day 1 makes a certain amount of sense (although, today makes sense, since he'd want to stay alive even if he was town).
---

I'm going to very temporarily change my vote to No Lynch with the contingent that I'll almost certainly change it once I've made up my mind.

[Valmark]

Mindslaver has already been speculated by us for the "Aliens did this" thing in the night kill

We've established that at least one alien is alive because we're revelead death roles and gac3 had none, so his Backup power didn't activate. If he was the only alien he'd have gotten an investigative power, we've determined that earlier today aswell

What I think I got wrong was that if Alien Seer had never joined the game the backup would get their powers even with the rest of the alien roles alive to get the aliens a full suite of powers. It was a hasty assumption to make

But there's no reason to make that assumption, since universal backup clearly doesn't work like that. Not only that but there wasn't a reason to believe there was a full set of powers in the first place (as in, a player for every role)

[CaoimhinTheCape]

I'm going off his decision to vote No Lynch last night, after AV was revealed to be lying.

Second, lets say CaomhinTheCape is right, or CaomhinTheCape was wrong but genuinely believed he was right. That still doesn't explain a No Lynch vote, if he truly believed AV was innocent, he should have voted for DukeGod and actively tried to save AV.

No Lynch sounds like CaomhinTheCape is in cahoots with both AV and DukeGod

A little confused at a case against me, but to explain:

I didn't think most townies would false claim Town Innocent, but with Avatar Vecna, I'd believe almost anything. So I voted DukeGod to force a tie. At that vote count, AV still dies but my vote puts pressure on both parties, especially if someone else jumps onto either wagon.


Then AV popped in and voted DukeGod without any explanation of their false claim. DukeGod would then have one more vote and be lynched. I didn't like AV's lack of explanation and wanted more info.


The Day was about to end and the only options were AV or DukeGod. I wanted to put down a vote as quickly as possible and picked No Lynch. I knew there was no way a No Lynch would happen given the one or two minutes left in the day, but wanted AV to be the leading wagon. Looking back, I could have sealed it by voting AV but I wrote the first thing that came to mind. Glad I did, as the Day ended a minute later.


So yes, I wanted AV lynched over DukeGod. Between Snow's conversation with me about how it probably wasn't a town move, plus AV's lack of explanation I was happy to lynch AV.

---

For day 1, I don't have much of a read on DukeGod - Duke starts by voting for AV, moves the vote to Duck after the Town Innocent claim.

I'm sticking with DukeGod. Yesterday he was on the first wagon then switched to the other when AV's fake claim came in. Today he's still just hopping on the only wagon that isn't him that appears to be forming so far.

Duck's reasoning here makes sense, if DukeGod is just joining the wagon opposite of him. I'd consider voting him, but just before I posted a couple more posts have come in.

---

Vote: smasher0404. I don't like the No Lynch vote today, even if you plan to change it later. We need to get leads on people by making wagons and voting No Lynch on Day 2 just puts off getting information for town.

[Valmark]

Thing is, assuming a roughly random distribution, the odds of DukeGod being a member of a non-Town faction goes down the more factions we rule out. He's less likely to be Cultist (if there are any left), because he voted for AvatarVecna before the fake Innocent reveal. He's not a part of bc56/Duck/trtl's hypothetical faction because bc56 cast their vote for DukeGod and the vote went down to the wire. That leaves 3 potential non-town factions of Mafia, Wolves, Aliens, and SK (depending on whether the trio's hypothetical faction is Mafia, Wolves, or Aliens).

That being said, I get the logic in regards to DukeGod jumping on the bandwagon day 1 makes a certain amount of sense (although, today makes sense, since he'd want to stay alive even if he was town).
---

I'm going to very temporarily change my vote to No Lynch with the contingent that I'll almost certainly change it once I've made up my mind.

Yes but you can't actually rule them out? As Xi explained, distancing exists and is used. Outright stating that they can't be part of the trio... Makes it more look like you're allied, or that you've got some other info, more then this being just a different pov. DukeGod's lynch is gonna be useful, assuming it happens.

[JoyWonderLove]

I'm going to vote Duck999, based on Valmark's faction theory of Duck/trtl/bc. Don't have anything better to go on so might as well investigate it.

Now, my first vote on Duck999 was purely for personal reasons and it bit me back, but we morons never learn. Still it seems like an actually good target today

Duck999 for the reasons listed in these posts. There's this completely childish and silly pat of me that goes 'I can't believe Duck would betray us, his best friends ever, in a Harry Potter game built on friendship and magic!' The more sensible part of me points out that Duck really could be a part of a faction that we're starting to see glimpses of, so let's stop that before it snowballs.

[Logan1996]

I am not sure I got enough to go off of yet. But I'll join the DukeGod wagon.

[trtl]

A little confused at a case against me,

What confuses you? I'm happy with my reasoning but I could be missing something.

I didn't think most townies would false claim Town Innocent, but with Avatar Vecna, I'd believe almost anything. So I voted DukeGod to force a tie. At that vote count, AV still dies but my vote puts pressure on both parties, especially if someone else jumps onto either wagon.


Then AV popped in and voted DukeGod without any explanation of their false claim. DukeGod would then have one more vote and be lynched. I didn't like AV's lack of explanation and wanted more info.


The Day was about to end and the only options were AV or DukeGod. I wanted to put down a vote as quickly as possible and picked No Lynch. I knew there was no way a No Lynch would happen given the one or two minutes left in the day, but wanted AV to be the leading wagon. Looking back, I could have sealed it by voting AV but I wrote the first thing that came to mind. Glad I did, as the Day ended a minute later.


So yes, I wanted AV lynched over DukeGod. Between Snow's conversation with me about how it probably wasn't a town move, plus AV's lack of explanation I was happy to lynch AV.

Now I'm confused, if you were happy to lynch AV, you would have voted AV. I have nothing to go on but your word, but I don't see how "the first thing to pop into your mind" would be... nothing?

I dunno, I just don't buy it...

(Also, apparently voting to force a tie doesn't count as an explanation: people suspect me of being in league with Duck999 since I voted AV, also forcing a tie. Not a point against you, but I'd like to know why my accusers see your position and mine as any different...)

[Aventine]

I'm taking a Scully stance on the "This was done by aliens" thing.

---

Mindslaver has already been speculated by us for the "Aliens did this" thing in the night kill

We've established that at least one alien is alive because we're revelead death roles and gac3 had none, so his Backup power didn't activate. If he was the only alien he'd have gotten an investigative power, we've determined that earlier today aswell

What I think I got wrong was that if Alien Seer had never joined the game the backup would get their powers even with the rest of the alien roles alive to get the aliens a full suite of powers. It was a hasty assumption to make

This is reasonably enough, and what I expected for mindslaver and investigative (even if it relies on misunderstanding the argument for why gac would have been investigative). But it still provides no answer for why protective was on that list. So I'll add pressure on DukeGod

---

But I want to pull back a bit and agree with Caoimhin's response to trtl.

An Innocent Child fake-claim doesn't "introduce a whole bunch of paranoia and distrust around that ability." A true claim will still be narrator confirmed, and we even have precedent now that a fake-claim will be explicitly denied by the narrator, rather than just having the narrator say nothing and let it be implied. It is also a pretty big stretch to say that Innocent is "one of the best abilities Town has." It's useful, and with the right timing can be very useful, but with seers, baners, trackers and role-blockers running around?

The day ended with voting tied at 7-7. Caoimhin's DukeGod vote put him at 7, tied with AV. Then AV added his vote to put DukeGod in the lead with 8. Then Caoimhin switched to No Lynch, making it tied again and thus making AV the lynch target.

Switching off DukeGod to put pressure on AV after he shows up and doesn't even provide another claim seems perfectly reasonable and townie to me.

I can buy a Caoimhin-DukeGod scum-buddies pairing. It would mean Caoimhin's vote for DukeGod would be an ill-advised attempt at distancing that blew up in his face when AV showed up and took the opportunity to push DukeGod into the lead. Then a panicked last minute attempt to save DukeGod. But the logic in trtl's post is too twisted. Trying to make AV's failed fake-claim sound somehow more dangerous than it was, and so make Caoimhin look scummy somehow for believing it. Then trying to make Caoimhin's late day vote(s) look like they are inconsistent with him being townie, when they really aren't. It leaves a feeling of trtl having an ulterior motive here.

Also notice that he claims the No Lynch vote makes it look like Caoimhin, AV and DukeGod are all scum-buddies together. This is just wrong. In that case, the obvious move for Caoimhin is to vote for whoever looks more likely to get killed and hope he gets a lot of town-credit out of bussing before people realize neither wagon was on a townie.

[DukeGod]

But there's no reason to make that assumption, since universal backup clearly doesn't work like that. Not only that but there wasn't a reason to believe there was a full set of powers in the first place (as in, a player for every role)

Funny, because it ended up your own words that made me think it

Universal backups don't have a power unless someone else of their faction dies and if there's only the backup in a faction they get the investigative role.

For aliens it's a scry that reveals role and affiliation.

So gac3 couldn't possibly have been a mindslaver (the alien role that redirects powers)

I thought the reverse might be true, that if the backup was in the game and some power role wasn't the backup would just get the power role

Also, what you say here isn't all that truth. The backup doesn't get the investigative power. Gac would have got an investigative power if he was the only Alien because he discarded an Investigative card, but the rules state that the backup gets the power they discarded if they start as the only member of a faction

[CaoimhinTheCape]

Now I'm confused, if you were happy to lynch AV, you would have voted AV. I have nothing to go on but your word, but I don't see how "the first thing to pop into your mind" would be... nothing?

I dunno, I just don't buy it...

I could have made the vote for AV rather than No Lynch, that is true enough. But it still ended with an AV lynch. If I was working with AV, I would have left my vote on DukeGod and saved AV.

In terms of DukeGod, if I was working with him I wouldn't have bothered voting against him in the first place. Everyone was happy enough to jump on AV for his lie and I could have fell in line to easily save DukeGod and no one would question an AV vote.

If the three of us were all working together I wouldn't have made a big deal out of my vote - I would have just picked a side and tried to keep hidden.

---

DukeGod 5 (Valmark, Apogee1, Duck999, Logan1996, Aventine)
Duck999 3 (Xihirli, DukeGod, JoyWonderLove)
CaoimhinTheCape 1 (trtl)
smashber0404 1 (CaomhinTheCape)

No Lynch 1 (smasher0404)

Not Voting: Elenna
No Posts: BasketOfPuppies, Lord Athos, flat_footed, bc56, Kgato503,

[Elenna]

The Day was about to end and the only options were AV or DukeGod. I wanted to put down a vote as quickly as possible and picked No Lynch. I knew there was no way a No Lynch would happen given the one or two minutes left in the day, but wanted AV to be the leading wagon. Looking back, I could have sealed it by voting AV but I wrote the first thing that came to mind. Glad I did, as the Day ended a minute later.


So yes, I wanted AV lynched over DukeGod. Between Snow's conversation with me about how it probably wasn't a town move, plus AV's lack of explanation I was happy to lynch AV.

You wanted AV lynched, but the first thing you could think of was to vote No Lynch? Instead of voting to lynch AV? I agree with trtl, that seems really weird.
I'm honestly not sure why a non-town person would do that, unless maybe it was a panicky response to AV, DukeGod, and Caoimhin all being on the same team, but it's so weird that I feel like it's a lie and the real explanation is something he doesn't want known. Hence, voting CaoimhinTheCape.

I do kinda get why DukeGod might have misunderstood the rules and thought that a Universal Backup got any powers that their faction didn't have - there's a lot of abilities, factions, and rules to keep track of. But if the Caoimhin wagon doesn't take off, I'm willing to switch to DukeGod later for his vote yesterday, I guess.