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  1. - Top - End - #1
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    EvilClericGuy

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    Default Is a world primarily focused on intrigue and politics widely sustainable?

    So I’ve poured dozens of hours into my homebrew campaign setting, making sure that all the history matches up, all the nations are consistent, etc. But recently I noticed it’s very skewed to my tastes in D&D; there’s not a lot of dungeons and always chaotic evil orcs lying around, every creature with an intelligence score above 8 is given cultural and political treatment like the PHB races. All the throwaway minion races have been lumped together into a single continental political entity, and all the nations hate each other and are going to enter another war the moment some adventurers from another nation trapeze into their territory. But now I’m concerned that this setting will only fill a very niche role with the usual groups of murderhobos. I’ve even been thinking about eliminating the alignment system, but I’m not sure about that either.
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    寧教我負天下人,休教天下人負我。

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    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Lizardfolk

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    Default Re: Is a world primarily focused on intrigue and politics widely sustainable?

    This seems really cool. I guess it depends what your players are into.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Waterdeep Merch View Post
    Use your smite bite to fight the plight right. Fill the site with light and give fright to wights as a knight of the night, teeth white; mission forthright, evil in flight. Despite the blight within, you perform the rite, ignore any contrite slight, fangs alight, soul bright.

    That sight is dynamite.

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    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    OrcBarbarianGuy

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    Default Re: Is a world primarily focused on intrigue and politics widely sustainable?

    Some observations:

    -First, there are less "Default" enemies to fight unless a country is at war. One way to adapt would be to give other types of enemies elsewhere- criminals, maybe players can find some sort of equivalent to a privateer arrangement. If you opt to reduce combats significantly, you might want to shop around for systems a bit- D&D's noncombat rules are pretty anemic, and it's very much built around a paradigm of dungeons and "dungeons". For example, the mechanism of spells-per-day and "rests" (system-dependent) is designed for a particular scale of time pressure which may not exist in an intrigue game.

    -Second, an environment in which a single group of adventurers can set off a war by accident puts players under a lot of pressure if they have to continuously worry about setting off a war- they might simply resolve the issue by not caring about it rather than considering all the ramifications involved. A game where you can't do anything for fear of setting off the much stronger powers-that-be is no fun. You might consider providing some cushion before a full-scale war erupts, and let them know about tensions as they rise so they have some time to back off or reconsider.

    -Eliminating alignment is pretty easy to do- it either does nothing in some editions, or requires some minor class/spell tweaks in others.
    Last edited by aimlessPolymath; 2020-05-04 at 04:40 PM.
    My one piece of homebrew: The Shaman. A Druid replacement with more powerlevel control.
    The bargain bin- malfunctioning, missing, and broken magic items.
    Spirit Barbarian: The Barbarian, with heavy elements from the Shaman. Complete up to level 17.
    The Priest: A cleric reword which ran out of steam. Still a fun prestige class suitable for E6.
    The Coward: Not every hero can fight.

  4. - Top - End - #4
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    EvilClericGuy

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    Default Re: Is a world primarily focused on intrigue and politics widely sustainable?

    Quote Originally Posted by Wizard_Lizard View Post
    This seems really cool. I guess it depends what your players are into.
    I thought so too, which is exactly why it’s so skewed to intrigue. Mostly I’m developing it for future online games, since everybody in my town plays my least favorite edition of D&D.
    Quote Originally Posted by aimlessPolymath View Post
    Some observations:

    -First, there are less "Default" enemies to fight unless a country is at war. One way to adapt would be to give other types of enemies elsewhere- criminals, maybe players can find some sort of equivalent to a privateer arrangement. If you opt to reduce combats significantly, you might want to shop around for systems a bit- D&D's noncombat rules are pretty anemic, and it's very much built around a paradigm of dungeons and "dungeons". For example, the mechanism of spells-per-day and "rests" (system-dependent) is designed for a particular scale of time pressure which may not exist in an intrigue game.
    Honestly, the idea was that you’re perfectly able to start a war. You don’t have too, but if you want, you can. If you want to be a peacemaker, sure, go for diplomacy, but I’ve statted and written out a ton of armies, allegiances, and what-if wars for my inner epic conflict nerd.
    -Second, an environment in which a single group of adventurers can set off a war by accident puts players under a lot of pressure if they have to continuously worry about setting off a war- they might simply resolve the issue by not caring about it rather than considering all the ramifications involved. A game where you can't do anything for fear of setting off the much stronger powers-that-be is no fun. You might consider providing some cushion before a full-scale war erupts, and let them know about tensions as they rise so they have some time to back off or reconsider.
    I’m ok with them not caring - the point of the setting is that every action has consequences. If I really to boot them out of a Rope Trick or some such ignore-the-NPCs nonsense, I’ll just send a few angry armies their way. Magic is prevalent enough for that.

    But honestly, I don’t want to cushion them. Part of the fun of accidentally causing a war is fighting it.
    -Eliminating alignment is pretty easy to do- it either does nothing in some editions, or requires some minor class/spell tweaks in others.
    I’m thinking of still keeping Law/Chaos though, since I’d still like to make sure no paladins are chaotic and stuff like that.
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    (Pretend there’s more spoilers here because I haven’t found the will to digitize my campaign setting yet)
    寧教我負天下人,休教天下人負我。

  5. - Top - End - #5
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    OrcBarbarianGuy

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    Default Re: Is a world primarily focused on intrigue and politics widely sustainable?

    My second point is mostly that players' actions would be constrained to the point where they won't have any ability to not start a war while still having fun. Only having one political "hit point" before all-out war means that there's very little middle ground between playing excrutiatingly safe and saying "screw it, let's start a war", so players may feel railroaded into one of the two approaches. Having a cushion means that players have more ability to sacrifice portions of their safety net for specific objectives- they might be able to steal an artifact, but at the cost of food rationing and forced conscription as the city gears up for war.

    What sorts of adventures do you envision the players going on (pre-war, that is)?
    My one piece of homebrew: The Shaman. A Druid replacement with more powerlevel control.
    The bargain bin- malfunctioning, missing, and broken magic items.
    Spirit Barbarian: The Barbarian, with heavy elements from the Shaman. Complete up to level 17.
    The Priest: A cleric reword which ran out of steam. Still a fun prestige class suitable for E6.
    The Coward: Not every hero can fight.

  6. - Top - End - #6
    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: Is a world primarily focused on intrigue and politics widely sustainable?

    Quote Originally Posted by Vrock Bait View Post
    So I’ve poured dozens of hours into my homebrew campaign setting, making sure that all the history matches up, all the nations are consistent, etc. But recently I noticed it’s very skewed to my tastes in D&D; there’s not a lot of dungeons and always chaotic evil orcs lying around, every creature with an intelligence score above 8 is given cultural and political treatment like the PHB races. All the throwaway minion races have been lumped together into a single continental political entity, and all the nations hate each other and are going to enter another war the moment some adventurers from another nation trapeze into their territory. But now I’m concerned that this setting will only fill a very niche role with the usual groups of murderhobos. I’ve even been thinking about eliminating the alignment system, but I’m not sure about that either.
    While trapeze-based travel systems sound cool as hell, I'd maybe look at a few other items:

    - Are these nations monolithic? Are there any factions or people who can be pitted against each other? Are there political parties within a nation, for instance, who could be manipulated into a civil war or a coup? I've found that the more factions (and sub-factions!) you have, the more fun intrigue becomes as a pillar of play. Keeping them straight can be a challenge, but it's quite rewarding, especially when your players start linking a faction in Country A with a heretical sect in Country B in order to supply arms to revolutionaries in Country C. Or they just burn it all down. That's cool, too.

    - Are these nations all equally lawful? You don't have chaotic evil orcs, but do you have bandit gangs? Elven death squads killing journalists for an autocratic regime? Manticores who enjoy disemboweling their prey and then playing jazz trumpet to entertain the target while they bleed out? A gnomish Manhattan Project? A church full of life clerics who kill some of their acolytes every year to ensure scarcity of clerical healing, thus commanding higher rates? You can do a lot with groups of people who either don't conform to or actively subvert archetypes.

    - Finally, to actually answer your question, it's very much dependent on group. Hell, sometimes it's dependent on the day - if someone's had a terrible week and they are not here for complex political machinations tonight, it can really crimp things. You can still run a group of murderhobos in an intrigue-heavy setting, though. For an example, look at how you would run a murderhobo group through Eberron or Ravnica. That's where you can really leverage intrigue or political actors as patrons for the party, and the murderhobos start to look like highly skilled mercenaries or retainers for a lord, who tolerates their disruptions because darn it, they're just really, really good at their jobs.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vrock Bait View Post
    But honestly, I don’t want to cushion them. Part of the fun of accidentally causing a war is fighting it.
    This is awesome, good on you!

    Quote Originally Posted by Vrock Bait View Post
    I’m thinking of still keeping Law/Chaos though, since I’d still like to make sure no paladins are chaotic and stuff like that.
    I'm curious - why can't you have chaotic paladins? I mean, how else would you characterize Ancients or Vengeance Paladins (assuming you're playing 5e here; if I'm wrong, let me know).

  7. - Top - End - #7
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Lizardfolk

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    Default Re: Is a world primarily focused on intrigue and politics widely sustainable?

    Did I just... did I just read gnomish manhattan project?
    coz if I did... If I did... I want. I want that so bad.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Waterdeep Merch View Post
    Use your smite bite to fight the plight right. Fill the site with light and give fright to wights as a knight of the night, teeth white; mission forthright, evil in flight. Despite the blight within, you perform the rite, ignore any contrite slight, fangs alight, soul bright.

    That sight is dynamite.

  8. - Top - End - #8
    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: Is a world primarily focused on intrigue and politics widely sustainable?

    Quote Originally Posted by Wizard_Lizard View Post
    Did I just... did I just read gnomish manhattan project?
    coz if I did... If I did... I want. I want that so bad.
    Everybody thinks they want a gnomish Manhattan Project, right up until they get a gnuke in the face. :)

  9. - Top - End - #9
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    EvilClericGuy

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    Default Re: Is a world primarily focused on intrigue and politics widely sustainable?

    Quote Originally Posted by aimlessPolymath View Post
    My second point is mostly that players' actions would be constrained to the point where they won't have any ability to not start a war while still having fun. Only having one political "hit point" before all-out war means that there's very little middle ground between playing excrutiatingly safe and saying "screw it, let's start a war", so players may feel railroaded into one of the two approaches. Having a cushion means that players have more ability to sacrifice portions of their safety net for specific objectives- they might be able to steal an artifact, but at the cost of food rationing and forced conscription as the city gears up for war.
    You’re right, maybe I should give them a few more political hit points. I have issues with railroading, so you can probably think this through better than me.
    What sorts of adventures do you envision the players going on (pre-war, that is)?
    Mostly helping with exploration and various non-war skirmishes. Every nation is vying for as much territory and resources as possible, so kings and nobles are going to pay a lot to say, clear a cave system of kobolds or take over a mountain dungeon from a lich.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sparky McDibben View Post
    While trapeze-based travel systems sound cool as hell, I'd maybe look at a few other items:

    - Are these nations monolithic? Are there any factions or people who can be pitted against each other? Are there political parties within a nation, for instance, who could be manipulated into a civil war or a coup? I've found that the more factions (and sub-factions!) you have, the more fun intrigue becomes as a pillar of play. Keeping them straight can be a challenge, but it's quite rewarding, especially when your players start linking a faction in Country A with a heretical sect in Country B in order to supply arms to revolutionaries in Country C. Or they just burn it all down. That's cool, too.
    Well... there’s a single human nation with a government-in-exile off continent and a single on-continent city-state which is basically ignoring the original government. There’s also a ton of denominations of only three pantheons, as well a bunch of secret organizations like a necro-army and such. But I’ll keep that in mind, I definitely think I need a lot more factions for my elven democracy.
    - Are these nations all equally lawful?
    Nope.
    You don't have chaotic evil orcs, but do you have bandit gangs?
    The orcs here are actually refugees pushed out by Goliath invaders, so they’re seen as savage invaders by the “civilized” races. I’ve never really liked the concept of bandit gangs in high fantasy though, seemed so anachronistic.
    Elven death squads killing journalists for an autocratic regime?
    Yes, actually.
    Manticores who enjoy disemboweling their prey and then playing jazz trumpet to entertain the target while they bleed out?
    Dunno about that, but seems cool so I should probably go through my MM again.
    A gnomish Manhattan Project?
    It’s Halfling, but they stopped after they bombed their magical metropolis by accident and now it’s the headquarters of the undead army.
    A church full of life clerics who kill some of their acolytes every year to ensure scarcity of clerical healing, thus commanding higher rates?
    One of my churches is about treating religion like a bargain or business, so that’s actually a very good idea.
    You can do a lot with groups of people who either don't conform to or actively subvert archetypes.
    Mostly what I wanted to do was enhance stereotypes, by giving them reason to exist in the world like in the default setting but also subverting it.
    - Finally, to actually answer your question, it's very much dependent on group. Hell, sometimes it's dependent on the day - if someone's had a terrible week and they are not here for complex political machinations tonight, it can really crimp things. You can still run a group of murderhobos in an intrigue-heavy setting, though. For an example, look at how you would run a murderhobo group through Eberron or Ravnica. That's where you can really leverage intrigue or political actors as patrons for the party, and the murderhobos start to look like highly skilled mercenaries or retainers for a lord, who tolerates their disruptions because darn it, they're just really, really good at their jobs.
    Thanks for the answer, I’ll keep that in mind.
    I'm curious - why can't you have chaotic paladins? I mean, how else would you characterize Ancients or Vengeance Paladins (assuming you're playing 5e here; if I'm wrong, let me know).
    I play 3.5e, so don’t really know about that. I... guess that could work?
    Quote Originally Posted by Wizard_Lizard View Post
    Did I just... did I just read gnomish manhattan project?
    coz if I did... If I did... I want. I want that so bad.
    Mostly it was the halflings accidentally detonating a Locate City on their magical capital. The gnomes are really downtrodden in this world because they weren’t included in resistance talks during the fall of the last great empire, so don’t have their own nation.
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    As
    The Celestial Empire of Longshan

    Spoiler: Domination Victory
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    Equinox League

    Red Aurora College - Fae of the Four Courts - Khalos Guild - Celestial Empire



    (Pretend there’s more spoilers here because I haven’t found the will to digitize my campaign setting yet)
    寧教我負天下人,休教天下人負我。

  10. - Top - End - #10
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Lizardfolk

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    Default Re: Is a world primarily focused on intrigue and politics widely sustainable?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sparky McDibben View Post
    Everybody thinks they want a gnomish Manhattan Project, right up until they get a gnuke in the face. :)
    HAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHA oh jeez that got me...
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    Beware, Monologues
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    Quote Originally Posted by Waterdeep Merch View Post
    Use your smite bite to fight the plight right. Fill the site with light and give fright to wights as a knight of the night, teeth white; mission forthright, evil in flight. Despite the blight within, you perform the rite, ignore any contrite slight, fangs alight, soul bright.

    That sight is dynamite.

  11. - Top - End - #11
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    OrcBarbarianGuy

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    Default Re: Is a world primarily focused on intrigue and politics widely sustainable?

    Mostly helping with exploration and various non-war skirmishes. Every nation is vying for as much territory and resources as possible, so kings and nobles are going to pay a lot to say, clear a cave system of kobolds or take over a mountain dungeon from a lich.
    That sounds as though most of the adventure would still be combat-oriented, which should satisfy any murderhoboes in your party.
    My one piece of homebrew: The Shaman. A Druid replacement with more powerlevel control.
    The bargain bin- malfunctioning, missing, and broken magic items.
    Spirit Barbarian: The Barbarian, with heavy elements from the Shaman. Complete up to level 17.
    The Priest: A cleric reword which ran out of steam. Still a fun prestige class suitable for E6.
    The Coward: Not every hero can fight.

  12. - Top - End - #12
    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: Is a world primarily focused on intrigue and politics widely sustainable?

    Quote Originally Posted by Vrock Bait View Post
    Well... there’s a single human nation with a government-in-exile off continent and a single on-continent city-state which is basically ignoring the original government. There’s also a ton of denominations of only three pantheons, as well a bunch of secret organizations like a necro-army and such. But I’ll keep that in mind, I definitely think I need a lot more factions for my elven democracy.
    So I'm seeing only a few organized nations from your description, which I'm also seeing as a lot of blank space to explore. The great point here is that you can apply that to both types of players along the political-to-murderhobo spectrum. Murderhobos just need a patron to point them at a dungeon. Politically savvy players will enjoy having multiple patrons with conflicting goals, all of which can collide either in the wilderness or in a civilized setting, so it's more a question of how you present the hooks.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vrock Bait View Post
    The orcs here are actually refugees pushed out by Goliath invaders, so they’re seen as savage invaders by the “civilized” races. I’ve never really liked the concept of bandit gangs in high fantasy though, seemed so anachronistic.
    I guess I'm a little confused by this. How would you say bandit gangs are anachronistic? I would say that bandits arise from a breakdown of central authority. Central authority can be either present or absent in high fantasy, so I'd argue bandits are perfectly viable. However, if you're thinking that bandit gangs couldn't compete with powerful mages, then the solution is simple: the bandit gangs are run by magi. Maybe some of these gangs are run by mage-school dropouts, little better than sadistic thugs with heat metal and a rod. But maybe some bandit gangs are actually run by a mage patron who handles arcane countermeasures (casting nondetection or supplying the bandits with amulets of proof against detection and location for example). What if a powerful mage has several bandit gangs on the payroll, and each of them have contingent spells set up so that if the bandits try to rat them out under interrogation, the bandits suffer some horrible fate (fireball? dominate person? brain melting? Knock yourself out!). There's a lot you can do there.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vrock Bait View Post
    It’s Halfling, but they stopped after they bombed their magical metropolis by accident and now it’s the headquarters of the undead army.
    Hells yeah, brother!

    Quote Originally Posted by Vrock Bait View Post
    Mostly what I wanted to do was enhance stereotypes, by giving them reason to exist in the world like in the default setting but also subverting it.
    Yeah, I'd definitely recommend Eberron as inspiration, then. Sounds like exactly what you're going for.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vrock Bait View Post
    I play 3.5e, so don’t really know about that. I... guess that could work?
    Disregard this point; it doesn't apply to 3.5. I remember the Dark Times.

  13. - Top - End - #13
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    EvilClericGuy

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    Default Re: Is a world primarily focused on intrigue and politics widely sustainable?

    Quote Originally Posted by aimlessPolymath View Post
    That sounds as though most of the adventure would still be combat-oriented, which should satisfy any murderhoboes in your party.
    Thanks for the advice, I now realize that the setting is probably able to sustain both play styles well enough.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sparky McDibben View Post
    So I'm seeing only a few organized nations from your description, which I'm also seeing as a lot of blank space to explore. The great point here is that you can apply that to both types of players along the political-to-murderhobo spectrum. Murderhobos just need a patron to point them at a dungeon. Politically savvy players will enjoy having multiple patrons with conflicting goals, all of which can collide either in the wilderness or in a civilized setting, so it's more a question of how you present the hooks.
    That makes a lot of sense actually. I can see how this could lead to a lot of great plot hooks for most players, not just people who enjoy intrigue.
    I guess I'm a little confused by this. How would you say bandit gangs are anachronistic? I would say that bandits arise from a breakdown of central authority. Central authority can be either present or absent in high fantasy, so I'd argue bandits are perfectly viable. However, if you're thinking that bandit gangs couldn't compete with powerful mages, then the solution is simple: the bandit gangs are run by magi. Maybe some of these gangs are run by mage-school dropouts, little better than sadistic thugs with heat metal and a rod. But maybe some bandit gangs are actually run by a mage patron who handles arcane countermeasures (casting nondetection or supplying the bandits with amulets of proof against detection and location for example). What if a powerful mage has several bandit gangs on the payroll, and each of them have contingent spells set up so that if the bandits try to rat them out under interrogation, the bandits suffer some horrible fate (fireball? dominate person? brain melting? Knock yourself out!). There's a lot you can do there.
    Well... most areas have pretty decent central authority, but the former human and gnome territories are heavily contested, and the Halfling country is just Fall-of-Rome’ing at this point, so it would make sense to have people start forming bandit gangs.

    Now that I think about it, I already have several political movements in the area, so it makes sense to fill some of the gaps.
    Yeah, I'd definitely recommend Eberron as inspiration, then. Sounds like exactly what you're going for.
    Ugh, magical trains... Eberron is my favorite first-party campaign setting, but I’ve never felt it went far enough in either breaking down alignment stereotypes or showcasing the societal acceptance of magic.
    Disregard this point; it doesn't apply to 3.5. I remember the Dark Times.
    I actually first started playing in the age of 5th Edition, but my first D&D books were dusty 3.5e tomes I dug out of my local library because I thought the illustrations were cool. Never really liked 5e, I’ve always felt like it was just knockoff Pathfinder Lite. It’s not that I like Pathfinder very much either, but I even like 4th Edition a bit more because it at least tried to do something new.
    Spoiler: Total War
    Show


    As
    The Celestial Empire of Longshan

    Spoiler: Domination Victory
    Show

    Equinox League

    Red Aurora College - Fae of the Four Courts - Khalos Guild - Celestial Empire



    (Pretend there’s more spoilers here because I haven’t found the will to digitize my campaign setting yet)
    寧教我負天下人,休教天下人負我。

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