Support the GITP forums on Patreon
Help support GITP's forums (and ongoing server maintenance) via Patreon
Results 1 to 15 of 15
  1. - Top - End - #1
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Segev's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location

    Default Darts as Melee Weapons

    The dart is a curious weapon in 5e. It is the only thrown ranged weapon that deals damage (the net being the only other thrown ranged weapon at all, and all the other thrown weapons being melee weapons). This gives it some unique properties. If you wield it in melee, for example, it becomes an improvised weapon. Still does its normal damage, but few people are proficient with it. If you can pick up the Tavern Brawler feat, however, not only do you become proficient with it in melee, but you gain the ability to initiate grapples after stabbing people with darts in melee.

    Tavern Brawler means you have next to no reason to ever use a dagger again: darts do almost everything daggers do for you, but better and cheaper. The only thing daggers have over darts are the fact that they're light, which can be important if you go for two-weapon fighting.

    But there's one more curious thing about darts: because they're ranged weapons, the Archery fighting style applies to them. Of course, with any ranged weapon, you can get the +2 to hit when using them in melee as improvised weapons, so maybe you're better off with clubbing people with a longbow and then initiating a grapple.

    But still, a Tavern Brawler with a dart and Archery is an interesting option. Pity there's no good way to get more darts out for more attacks per round, still, but it's one more thought on the pile.

    I'm amused by the image of somebody using Tavern Brawler, Archery, and really any ranged weapon in melee (dart just came to mind first) for high-accuracy attacks followed by grapples.
    Last edited by Segev; 2020-05-04 at 09:44 AM.

  2. - Top - End - #2
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Lizardfolk

    Join Date
    Oct 2016

    Default Re: Darts as Melee Weapons

    I was all ready to point out that isn't how archery fighting style works... but i read it... oh. odd.

    is an improvised weapon still a ranged weapon when used in melee?
    Quote Originally Posted by MaxWilson View Post
    Just, please don't. Insisting on that technicality improves nothing.

  3. - Top - End - #3
    Troll in the Playground
     
    stoutstien's Avatar

    Join Date
    Sep 2015
    Location
    SD
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Darts as Melee Weapons

    Quote Originally Posted by NaughtyTiger View Post
    I was all ready to point out that isn't how archery fighting style works... but i read it... oh. odd.

    is an improvised weapon still a ranged weapon when used in melee?

    RAW yes. You could realistically grab GWM/SS and tavern brawler and smack people for really high damage with a bow in melee.
    what is the point of living if you can't deadlift?

    All credit to the amazing avatar goes to thoroughlyS

  4. - Top - End - #4
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    BlueKnightGuy

    Join Date
    Aug 2018
    Location
    Between SEA and PDX.
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Darts as Melee Weapons

    Quote Originally Posted by stoutstien View Post
    RAW yes. You could realistically grab GWM/SS and tavern brawler and smack people for really high damage with a bow in melee.
    Well, not quite.

    It was ruled by Crawford that an improvised weapon doesn't carry any of its properties over from it's normal stats.
    An improvised weapon is not a melee, ranged, Martial or simple weapon, but is its own unique classification.

    Similarly, you can make a Melee Weapon Attack with your fists, but your fists are not classified as melee weapons.
    Last edited by Man_Over_Game; 2020-05-04 at 10:26 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by KOLE View Post
    MOG, design a darn RPG system. Seriously, the amount of ideas Iíve gleaned from your posts has been valuable. Youíre a gem of the community here.
    Quote Originally Posted by Man_Over_Game View Post

    5th Edition Homebrewery

    Prestige Options, changing primary attributes to open a world of new multiclassing.
    Adrenaline Surge, fitting Short Rests into combat to fix bosses/Short Rest Classes.
    Pain, using Exhaustion to make tactical martial combatants.
    Fate Sorcery, lucky winner of the 5e D&D Subclass Contest VII!

  5. - Top - End - #5
    Troll in the Playground
     
    stoutstien's Avatar

    Join Date
    Sep 2015
    Location
    SD
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Darts as Melee Weapons

    Quote Originally Posted by Man_Over_Game View Post
    Well, not quite.

    It was ruled by Crawford that an improvised weapon doesn't carry any of its properties over from it's normal stats. An improvised weapon is not a melee, ranged, Martial or simple weapon. Similarly, you can make a Melee Weapon Attack with your fists, but your fists are not classified as melee weapons.

    It's the same reason you can't use Sharpshooter while trying to club someone with your bow.
    Oh I agree with him and I wouldn't allow it but going purely off what the book says it's possible.

    It's why RAW is the weakest support for a ruling.
    Last edited by stoutstien; 2020-05-04 at 10:27 AM.

  6. - Top - End - #6
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Segev's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location

    Default Re: Darts as Melee Weapons

    Quote Originally Posted by Man_Over_Game View Post
    Well, not quite.

    It was ruled by Crawford that an improvised weapon doesn't carry any of its properties over from it's normal stats.
    An improvised weapon is not a melee, ranged, Martial or simple weapon, but is its own unique classification.

    Similarly, you can make a Melee Weapon Attack with your fists, but your fists are not classified as melee weapons.
    Yeah, to be fair to Crawford, I totally see where he's coming from, but "it was ruled by Crawford" isn't the same as what's in the "Rules As Written." Given how he also has been very much a stickler for the distinction between "an attack with a [melee/ranged] weapon" and "a [melee/ranged] weapon attack," and based that very strictly on what's in the tables, he's not even being consistent, here.

    Again, though, I defintiely see where he's coming from and wouldn't fault a DM for ruling similarly, though I'd probably suggest that such a DM should treat the primary divide as being between melee/ranged attacks rather than between where the weapons fall on the table. (I get frustrated by inconsistent rulings that are rooted in varying levels of strict adherence to the RAW; if you're going to rule based on perceived RAI or on verisimilitude, that's great, but please be clear about that and work to make your rulings consistently rooted in the same place so they're more easily predictable.)

  7. - Top - End - #7
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    OrcBarbarianGuy

    Join Date
    Jan 2015
    Location
    Vinland
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Darts as Melee Weapons

    Now I want to make a Barbarian that's frustrated that he is not a better archer and just bashes people with his bow.

  8. - Top - End - #8
    Firbolg in the Playground
     
    KorvinStarmast's Avatar

    Join Date
    May 2015
    Location
    Texas
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Darts as Melee Weapons

    A good explanation is here.
    Some "verisimilitude" thoughts are here

    I seem to remember that back in AD&D 1e or 2e days, darts would be thrown three per round, or something like that. Not so in this edition .
    Last edited by KorvinStarmast; 2020-05-04 at 10:47 AM.
    Avatar by linklele
    Quote Originally Posted by Malifice View Post
    (paraphrased) Rulings are not 'House Rules.' Rulings are a DM doing what DMs are supposed to do.
    Quote Originally Posted by greenstone View Post
    Agency means that they {players} control their character's actions; you control the world's reactions to the character's actions.
    Gosh, 2D8HP, you are so very correct (and also quite handsome) ... 2D8HP told me so
    Quote Originally Posted by HappyDaze
    Self-deception tends to have a low target number

  9. - Top - End - #9
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Segev's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location

    Default Re: Darts as Melee Weapons

    Quote Originally Posted by KorvinStarmast View Post
    A good explanation is here.
    Some "verisimilitude" thoughts are here

    I seem to remember that back in AD&D 1e or 2e days, darts would be thrown three per round, or something like that. Not so in this edition .
    Interesting.

    I have, personally, always found the "dart" as traditionally described - no matter how historically accurate - to be silly-looking in my mental image of combat.

    In D&D 5e, I actually think the Dart probably represents a class of weapons, especially given the Monk class's discussion of "a club that is actually two pieces of wood connected by a chain" and the like. So darts also represent shuriken, kunai, and similar small thrown weapons.

    And yeah, in 2e, they had a high rate of fire but also did only 1 point of damage, IIRC. 3.0 inherited that for shuriken; poisoning shuriken in 3.0 was a popular tactic, and I had a funny idea I never implemented in game for spell-storing shuriken that you actually used to self-buff, because you could take the 1 point of damage from each of several of them, and it would hit you with multiple buff spells in a single full attack.

    In 5e, the simplification of weapons means darts probably represent a lot of different weapons. (Arguably, kunai might be daggers, but still.) Sadly, they still aren't terribly useful, given the issues thrown weapons have in 5e.

  10. - Top - End - #10
    Firbolg in the Playground
     
    KorvinStarmast's Avatar

    Join Date
    May 2015
    Location
    Texas
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Darts as Melee Weapons

    Quote Originally Posted by Segev View Post
    In 5e, the simplification of weapons means darts probably represent a lot of different weapons. (Arguably, kunai might be daggers, but still.) Sadly, they still aren't terribly useful, given the issues thrown weapons have in 5e.
    Oh yeah, shuriken is a good "dart" reskin. I like it.

    My "way of the shadow" monk took Nature Skill proficiency for this specific purpose. (A desire to now and again harvest some poison from a defeated enemy so that I could poison my darts). The game died to a failed DC 35 saving throw against RL. :-( I only got to successfully harvest a few bits, my best one being from a giant scorpion.
    Last edited by KorvinStarmast; 2020-05-04 at 11:17 AM.
    Avatar by linklele
    Quote Originally Posted by Malifice View Post
    (paraphrased) Rulings are not 'House Rules.' Rulings are a DM doing what DMs are supposed to do.
    Quote Originally Posted by greenstone View Post
    Agency means that they {players} control their character's actions; you control the world's reactions to the character's actions.
    Gosh, 2D8HP, you are so very correct (and also quite handsome) ... 2D8HP told me so
    Quote Originally Posted by HappyDaze
    Self-deception tends to have a low target number

  11. - Top - End - #11
    Halfling in the Playground
    Join Date
    Mar 2020

    Default Re: Darts as Melee Weapons

    Quote Originally Posted by Segev View Post
    snip

    Pity there's no good way to get more darts out for more attacks per round, still, but it's one more thought on the pile.

    snip.
    There' a fighting style in the class features UA that allows for this, but to mix that with Archery you'd need to get two fighting styles which is annoying hard to do.

  12. - Top - End - #12
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    BlueKnightGuy

    Join Date
    Aug 2018
    Location
    Between SEA and PDX.
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Darts as Melee Weapons

    One niche thing I like about Darts is that they work for a Barbarian, and are a Ranged weapon so you can choose them as a Kensei. A bit odd, but you could make a Barbarian Kensei around this.
    Quote Originally Posted by KOLE View Post
    MOG, design a darn RPG system. Seriously, the amount of ideas Iíve gleaned from your posts has been valuable. Youíre a gem of the community here.
    Quote Originally Posted by Man_Over_Game View Post

    5th Edition Homebrewery

    Prestige Options, changing primary attributes to open a world of new multiclassing.
    Adrenaline Surge, fitting Short Rests into combat to fix bosses/Short Rest Classes.
    Pain, using Exhaustion to make tactical martial combatants.
    Fate Sorcery, lucky winner of the 5e D&D Subclass Contest VII!

  13. - Top - End - #13
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Segev's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location

    Default Re: Darts as Melee Weapons

    Quote Originally Posted by jmartkdr View Post
    There' a fighting style in the class features UA that allows for this, but to mix that with Archery you'd need to get two fighting styles which is annoying hard to do.
    Well, there's multiclassing, or being a Champion. The latter is far more annoying and costly, but would get you Tavern Brawler with the least cost (since more ASIs means a feat costs you less). And the UA article, at least (now that I knew to look for it) gives the Thrown Weapon Fighting style as an option to all three classes that get fighting styles. So multiclassing for it is viable. You could have archery fighting style and thrown weapon fighting style by level 3, 1 of fighter and 2 of either paladin or ranger.

  14. - Top - End - #14
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    GreataxeFighterGuy

    Join Date
    Apr 2016
    Location
    Boulder Creek
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Darts as Melee Weapons

    Well, as always, the DM can rule otherwise versus the whole Sage Advice ruling, except the third part helps Darts as Daggers anyway:

    Improvised weapons have no properties (sage advice). An improvised weapon is not ranged or melee, simple or martial, heavy or light. It's just improvised, unless your DM rules that your improvised weapon is close enough to some real weapon to qualify as that weapon.

  15. - Top - End - #15
    Pixie in the Playground
     
    Flumph

    Join Date
    Mar 2020

    Default Re: Darts as Melee Weapons

    Quote Originally Posted by Segev View Post
    The dart is a curious weapon in 5e. It is the only thrown ranged weapon that deals damage (the net being the only other thrown ranged weapon at all, and all the other thrown weapons being melee weapons). This gives it some unique properties. If you wield it in melee, for example, it becomes an improvised weapon. Still does its normal damage, but few people are proficient with it. If you can pick up the Tavern Brawler feat, however, not only do you become proficient with it in melee, but you gain the ability to initiate grapples after stabbing people with darts in melee.
    My monk used darts as a stand-in for kunai. Lacking any of the relevant feats you mention, and because anything in dart range was also within "run up and inflict non-violence to the face, repeatedly, with my fists" range, they didn't get much use.

    This is just one of several places where 5e's weapon classifications veer too far from reality for my taste. I find it bizarre, for instance, that when darts are thrown finesse weapons, boomerangs are not.

    Spoiler: OFF TOPIC
    Show
    Someone should also tell WotC that hunting and war boomerangs don't return to the thrower, have an effective range of over 300', and can kill a deer or kangaroo at that range. That's more along the lines of (1d6 bludgoning, thrown, finesse, range 120/300).

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •