Star Wars: The Skywalker Saga Movie Review

[Peelee]

I don’t remember where but I had seen a video-montage of Vader going ‘Apologies accepted, Captain Needa.’, ‘The Emperor is not as forgiving as I am’ and ‘Careful not to choke on your aspirations, director’ and it flowed very well.

Aye, Vader was sarcastic throughout the entire series. "I find your lack of faith disturbing" while choking a man via said faith, for example.

I understand what you mean. He wasn't a jedi, he could never tell the Force "I want that stone raised 3.2 meters into the air" and have it listen. But he was also shooting people with a laser longbow while blind. The Force was with him, a lot more than it is that kangaroo.

No, what I mean is that the Force was not with him more than that kangaroo. He wasn't just not a Jedi, he was not a Force User. He could not use the Force. This is why I think it's ridiculous that they decided this, because I agree with you, obviously shooting a TIE while blind, among his other feats, should mean he can use the Force in some way, but he canonically cannot use the Force in any way.

Also it's stupid that his hand weapon can take down a starfighter, but that's a separate discussion.

[Keltest]

No, what I mean is that the Force was not with him more than that kangaroo. He wasn't just not a Jedi, he was not a Force User. He could not use the Force. This is why I think it's ridiculous that they decided this, because I agree with you, obviously shooting a TIE while blind, among his other feats, should mean he can use the Force in some way, but he canonically cannot use the Force in any way.

Also it's stupid that his hand weapon can take down a starfighter, but that's a separate discussion.

That's not what the Force is though. Its with every living being and has a will of its own. Maybe he can't deliberately use it, but that doesn't mean it isn't acting on him, or through him, because it acts on and through everybody. Heck, that's how obi-wan explains the whole concept of the Force to us back in ANH.

[Peelee]

That's not what the Force is though. Its with every living being and has a will of its own. Maybe he can't deliberately use it, but that doesn't mean it isn't acting on him, or through him, because it acts on and through everybody. Heck, that's how obi-wan explains the whole concept of the Force to us back in ANH.

The Jedi believe it has a will of its own, but the Jedi are not the only religion centered around the Force. Also, Kenobi and Yoda both explain that the Force is an energy field created by all life, so they're not even too consistent on that point.* And, that all regardless, Chirrut used the Force exactly as much as any other non-Force-using person or thing - you, me, the tree, the rock, to paraphrase Yoda.

*Why yes, I do think midi-chlorians and "the will of the Force" were stupid, why do you ask?

[Rakaydos]

Aye, Vader was sarcastic throughout the entire series. "I find your lack of faith disturbing" while choking a man via said faith, for example.


No, what I mean is that the Force was not with him more than that kangaroo. He wasn't just not a Jedi, he was not a Force User. He could not use the Force. This is why I think it's ridiculous that they decided this, because I agree with you, obviously shooting a TIE while blind, among his other feats, should mean he can use the Force in some way, but he canonically cannot use the Force in any way.

Also it's stupid that his hand weapon can take down a starfighter, but that's a separate discussion.

You are reading more into a statement that you should. Remember, this is the universe that gave us "from a certian point of view" truths. He is not a force user, he does not USE the force. But he can SENSE the force, attuned to the energy that flows through every living thing, especially because of his blindness. The kyber crystal across a market, under the clothes of a character never met before, is a perfect example of his sight beyond sight.

[Rodin]

He's just especially sensitive to the radiation emitted by midichlorians.


...


*runs*

[Peelee]

You are reading more into a statement that you should. Remember, this is the universe that gave us "from a certian point of view" truths. He is not a force user, he does not USE the force. But he can SENSE the force, attuned to the energy that flows through every living thing, especially because of his blindness. The kyber crystal across a market, under the clothes of a character never met before, is a perfect example of his sight beyond sight.

Yes, that would make sense. And invalidating that would make no sense. And yet, they invalidated that.

[Keltest]

Yes, that would make sense. And invalidating that would make no sense. And yet, they invalidated that.

Did they? They said he had no force abilities, not that he was incapable of interacting with it.

[Rakaydos]

Yes, that would make sense. And invalidating that would make no sense. And yet, they invalidated that.

"You told me Darth Vader betrayed and murdered my father."

[Peelee]

Did they? They said he had no force abilities, not that he was incapable of interacting with it.

Mental discipline, not interacting with the Force:

Deeply spiritual, Chirrut Îmwe believes all living things are connected through the Force. His sightless eyes do not prevent him from being a highly skilled warrior. Though he lacks Force abilities, this warrior monk has rigorously honed his body through intense physical and mental discipline.

No connection to the Force:

Although he did not have a connection to the Force, Chirrut was a strong believer in it and the ways of the Jedi, carrying a simple staff and traditional lightbow bowcaster, contrasting greatly with his partner's more pragmatic personality. His devotion to spirituality helped him overcome his blindness and become a formidable warrior.

"Supernatural powers" that come from "skills":

His devotion to spirituality helped him overcome his blindness and become a formidable warrior. Îmwe's Zama-shiwo skills were said to have given him supernatural powers that would alter his heart and oxygen intake.

Now, the first one is the only every-word-is-100%-official, but the wikis draw their statements from official sources, which seem to bend over backwards in order to avoid any indication that he is interacting with the Force, even going so far as to say "supernatural powers" while at the same time saying no Force abilities, which would only be necessary to strictly divorce the two.

If you think it's ridiculous, and he clearly has some connection to the Force, and everything we see in the movie (including his own dialogue!) pretty much screams that he does, then I wholeheartedly agree. You're preaching to the choir. It's simple, it's clean, it's logical, it's the obvious implication, it fits, there is nothing but consistency and zero drawback to that being the case. But Disney took great pains to say that is not the case.

[Keltest]

Mental discipline, not interacting with the Force:
No connection to the Force:
"Supernatural powers" that come from "skills":

Now, the first one is the only every-word-is-100%-official, but the wikis draw their statements from official sources, which seem to bend over backwards in order to avoid any indication that he is interacting with the Force, even going so far as to say "supernatural powers" while at the same time saying no Force abilities, which would only be necessary to strictly divorce the two.

If you think it's ridiculous, and he clearly has some connection to the Force, and everything we see in the movie (including his own dialogue!) pretty much screams that he does, then I wholeheartedly agree. You're preaching to the choir. It's simple, it's clean, it's logical, it's the obvious implication, it fits, there is nothing but consistency and zero drawback to that being the case. But Disney took great pains to say that is not the case.

But... they didn't. They just said he doesn't have any force abilities. Speaking as a regular joe English fluent person, the intended reading there seems to be to be "he isn't a Jedi and doesn't use Jedi powers." rather than "he is totally incapable of interacting with the Force on any level, and he actually uses a totally separate form of magic completely unconsciously and unwittingly, and just attributes it to the Force."

[Peelee]

But... they didn't. They just said he doesn't have any force abilities. Speaking as a regular joe English fluent person, the intended reading there seems to be to be "he isn't a Jedi and doesn't use Jedi powers." rather than "he is totally incapable of interacting with the Force on any level, and he actually uses a totally separate form of magic completely unconsciously and unwittingly, and just attributes it to the Force."

Also speaking as a regular joe English fluent person, The intended reading seems to be "if we wanted to imply in any way that he had Force sensitivity or was able to interact with the Force in any way, even unconsciously, we would have said so, since that's the easiest thing in the world to do. We very pointedly did not."

[Rakaydos]

Also speaking as a regular joe English fluent person, The intended reading seems to be "if we wanted to imply in any way that he had Force sensitivity or was able to interact with the Force in any way, even unconsciously, we would have said so, since that's the easiest thing in the world to do. We very pointedly did not."

The only "official" has a huge loophole in it you are ignoring, even when we repeatedly point it out to you. Secondary sources may miss that loophole, but the primary sources all include it.

[Peelee]

The only "official" has a huge loophole in it you are ignoring, even when we repeatedly point it out to you. Secondary sources may miss that loophole, but the primary sources all include it.

The secondary sources are referencing primary sources. You can claim there is a loophole all you want, that does not make you correct.

[Keltest]

The secondary sources are referencing primary sources. You can claim there is a loophole all you want, that does not make you correct.

I mean, you have a sample size of like 2 primary sources, one of which I don't have access to in order to check the actual wording used. Since, as you say, the secondary sources all reference these primary sources, that discounts them entirely. So... we have one quick paragraph saying that he cant use Force Abilities but otherwise makes no mention of his connection to the force, and a bunch of raw data demonstrating supernatural ability. And your conclusion is that he... uses some totally different form of space magic and just attributes it to the Force? Unless the book they cite as the second source goes into a lot more detail about his lack of connection to the force, I think you should probably listen to the wisdom of Occam in this case.

[Peelee]

I mean, you have a sample size of like 2 primary sources, one of which I don't have access to in order to check the actual wording used. Since, as you say, the secondary sources all reference these primary sources, that discounts them entirely. So... we have one quick paragraph saying that he cant use Force Abilities but otherwise makes no mention of his connection to the force, and a bunch of raw data demonstrating supernatural ability. And your conclusion is that he... uses some totally different form of space magic and just attributes it to the Force? Unless the book they cite as the second source goes into a lot more detail about his lack of connection to the force, I think you should probably listen to the wisdom of Occam in this case.

Since the secondary sources are wikis, the sources are remarkably easy to find. And, unsurprisingly, when a character seemingly has a clear and obvious connection to the Force and Disney categorically denies any form of connection to the Force, my conclusion is "wow, that is bad writing." Which I believe is a conclusion Occam would find perfectly satisfactory, especially considering how it is not exactly an unheard-of opinion for me to hold regarding Star Wars.

[Keltest]

Since the secondary sources are wikis, the sources are remarkably easy to find. And, unsurprisingly, when a character seemingly has a clear and obvious connection to the Force and Disney categorically denies any form of connection to the Force, my conclusion is "wow, that is bad writing." Which I believe is a conclusion Occam would find perfectly satisfactory, especially considering how it is not exactly an unheard-of opinion for me to hold regarding Star Wars.

They don't deny it though! They say he doesn't have any Force Powers. That's not denying him any connection to the Force.

Also, the second source is a novel. Since im not going to go out and buy and read a novel for the sake of an internet argument, I choose to discount it entirely until and unless somebody else chimes in with the relevant sections. A source I cant access is not a viable source.

[Devonix]

They don't deny it though! They say he doesn't have any Force Powers. That's not denying him any connection to the Force.

Also, the second source is a novel. Since im not going to go out and buy and read a novel for the sake of an internet argument, I choose to discount it entirely until and unless somebody else chimes in with the relevant sections. A source I cant access is not a viable source.

Exactly. The movie never says he has force powers, and every single other source explicitly says that he does not have force powers. The only people saying otherwise are fans ignoring official sources.

He doesn't have force powers, but that doesn't mean he can't give himself over to the will of the force anyore than any other person can. He's just " Letting Go. " and letting the universe guide him like a zen blind samurai in any other movie.

[Rakaydos]

Exactly. The movie never says he has force powers, and every single other source explicitly says that he does not have force powers. The only people saying otherwise are fans ignoring official sources.

He doesn't have force powers, but that doesn't mean he can't give himself over to the will of the force anyore than any other person can. He's just " Letting Go. " and letting the universe guide him like a zen blind samurai in any other movie.

We may be talking past each other. "Letting the universe guide him" is all he needs, and we keep getting told that disney says that's not true, even though they fail to show disney saying it's not true.

[Iskar Jarak]

Darth Vader does like ironic humour, but personally, I don't think that pun was either of those things.
There's a disagreement on what exactly "Force abilities" means. It only makes sense to use the official definition here. Unfortunately, that doesn't exist. All I can find is:

...Harnessing the power of the Force gives the Jedi, the Sith, and others sensitive to this spiritual energy extraordinary abilities, such as levitating objects, tricking minds, and seeing things before they happen. While the Force can grant users powerful abilities, it also...

You could argue either way, but it seems to be implying, "All uses of the Force to do extraordinary things are Force abilities." EDIT: [The same website says that Chirrut "lacks force abilities."] It follows that Chirrut -- according to Disney -- isn't Force sensitive. (Assuming whatever starving interns typed this stuff were in communication.)
I think I'll ignore what Disney says about Chirrut. In Chirrut's last scene, a rebel breaks from cover only to immediately get killed by the Death Troopers. Then, Chirrut walks out through a storm of blaster fire, unscathed. He even says something about the Force gathering darkly about someone that's about to kill.
Why would Disney not like Chirrut using the Force? Or is this just part of their continued monstrous experiment to create the dumbest and most contradictory canon the galaxy has ever seen?

[Peelee]

They don't deny it though! They say he doesn't have any Force Powers. That's not denying him any connection to the Force.

Also, the second source is a novel. Since im not going to go out and buy and read a novel for the sake of an internet argument, I choose to discount it entirely until and unless somebody else chimes in with the relevant sections. A source I cant access is not a viable source.

That's like saying "I didn't see the movie, and I'm not about to spend five bucks renting it, so nothing in the movie counts, since a source I can't access is not a viable source."

It is a viable source whether or not you choose to read it. Discounting sources because you haven't read them and don't want to is a dangerous road to walk down.

[Rakaydos]

Darth Vader does like ironic humour, but personally, I don't think that pun was either of those things.
There's a disagreement on what exactly "Force abilities" means. It only makes sense to use the official definition here. Unfortunately, that doesn't exist. All I can find is:


You could argue either way, but it seems to be implying, "All uses of the Force to do extraordinary things are Force abilities." It follows that Chirrut -- according to Disney -- isn't Force sensitive. (Assuming whatever starving interns typed this stuff were in communication.)
I think I'll ignore what Disney says about Chirrut. In Chirrut's last scene, a rebel breaks from cover only to immediately get killed by the Death Troopers. Then, Chirrut walks out through a storm of blaster fire, unscathed. He even says something about the Force gathering darkly about someone that's about to kill.
Why would Disney not like Chirrut using the Force? Or is this just part of their continued monstrous experiment to create the dumbest and most contradictory canon the galaxy has ever seen?

A distinction needed to be made of "if the empire is hunting jedi, why is Chirrit still around? Because he's not a jedi, he's something else." But because he's the only "something else" we've seen outside Clone Wars and Rebels, casual viewers keep reading "not a jedi" and seeing "Not force sensitive."

[Keltest]

That's like saying "I didn't see the movie, and I'm not about to spend five bucks renting it, so nothing in the movie counts, since a source I can't access is not a viable source."

It is a viable source whether or not you choose to read it. Discounting sources because you haven't read them and don't want to is a dangerous road to walk down.

I generally trust the people of the forums. If somebody (say, a big Star Wars fan named Peelee who is known to have other Star Wars books) were to come up and post the exact lines of text being referred to, and they said something to the effect of "Chirrut is ironically totally blind to the force, and uses Space-Ki instead without realizing it" I would immediately concede the point. As it is, I cant discuss the accuracy of an interpretation of a source that I cant access for myself, and nobody seems to be chiming up, so all I can talk about is the source that I DO have access to. And it doesn't seem to me to be saying what you say it is.

[Peelee]

Why would Disney not like Chirrut using the Force? Or is this just part of their continued monstrous experiment to create the dumbest and most contradictory canon the galaxy has ever seen?

Now to be fair, they still have a ways to go to meet the original EU on that front.

A distinction needed to be made of "if the empire is hunting jedi, why is Chirrit still around? Because he's not a jedi, he's something else." But because he's the only "something else" we've seen outside Clone Wars and Rebels, casual viewers keep reading "not a jedi" and seeing "Not force sensitive."

And non-casual viewers can read what Disney wrote about Chirrut, which was more to the point than simply "not a Jedi," as "not Force sensitive."

At least, I assume I would not fall into the "casual viewers" category, given my rather extensive collection of Star Wars media. Could be wrong, someone could certainly choose to claim I do indeed fit into that box.

I generally trust the people of the forums. If somebody (say, a big Star Wars fan named Peelee who is known to have other Star Wars books) were to come up and post the exact lines of text being referred to, and they said something to the effect of "Chirrut is ironically totally blind to the force, and uses Space-Ki instead without realizing it" I would immediately concede the point. As it is, I cant discuss the accuracy of an interpretation of a source that I cant access for myself, and nobody seems to be chiming up, so all I can talk about is the source that I DO have access to. And it doesn't seem to me to be saying what you say it is.

Fair.

Especially since I also do not have that book and am just claiming the accessible shorthand presented in the wiki, after all.

[dancrilis]

So he has epic level skills that to any normal observer look like magic but are in fact not - so basically he is probably an epic level monk.

[Keltest]

So he has epic level skills that to any normal observer look like magic but are in fact not - so basically he is probably an epic level monk.

I would argue that D&D monks are just as magic as a wizard. They might not cast spells the same way, but when you tap into an outside energy source to give you powers that youre normally incapable of, that's just magic by another name.

[Devonix]

I would argue that D&D monks are just as magic as a wizard. They might not cast spells the same way, but when you tap into an outside energy source to give you powers that youre normally incapable of, that's just magic by another name.

The force is in all things, it's always moving, always trying to do things, guide things. Force sensitives are just able to manipulate it as well as hear it.

Chirrut didn't make any of those storm troopers miss. He just left the safety of cover and trusted that they would miss. That it was his destiny to reach that lever. Remember he didn't even dodge or anything. he just walked. It's the same as someone in the real world crossing no mans land without a scratch that happens as a miracle.

[Peelee]

I would argue that D&D monks are just as magic as a wizard. They might not cast spells the same way, but when you tap into an outside energy source to give you powers that youre normally incapable of, that's just magic by another name.

I don't know why, but this made me realize a (seemingly) glaring contradiction from the movie itself: Chirrut claims that the Force moves darkly near a creature that is about to kill. Meaning that being able to actively see/feel the Force is not a Force ability. Disney can claim that to be true all they want, but I am going to object as it being nonsensical.

[Keltest]

I don't know why, but this made me realize a (seemingly) glaring contradiction from the movie itself: Chirrut claims that the Force moves darkly near a creature that is about to kill. Meaning that being able to actively see/feel the Force is not a Force ability. Disney can claim that to be true all they want, but I am going to object as it being nonsensical.

I mean, I can feel the water flowing around my ankles if I step into a creek, but that doesn't mean I have water abilities.

Having said that, im given to understand the Databank is not written by people actually involved with the main writing. It is, as somebody said, interns. Im all on board with the "they wrote something dumb without much thought" theory, I just don't think its mutually exclusive with "they expected people to read it as 'he isn't a Jedi'"as a reading.

[Peelee]

I mean, I can feel the water flowing around my ankles if I step into a creek, but that doesn't mean I have water abilities.

Literally everyone can feel water flowing around their ankles if they step into a creek, though, while Chirrut displays a significantly greater perception that is closed off to everyone else. More akin to "being able to perceive color is not a sight ability, such as a human distinctly seeing a rabbit from three kilometers up." Just because one is far more impressive doesn't mean the first one doesn't obviously require sight.

[Keltest]

Literally everyone can feel water flowing around their ankles if they step into a creek, though, while Chirrut displays a significantly greater perception that is closed off to everyone else. More akin to "being able to perceive color is not a sight ability, such as a human distinctly seeing a rabbit from three kilometers up." Just because one is far more impressive doesn't mean the first one doesn't obviously require sight.

But is it closed because they don't have it, or because they don't pay attention to it? The point of his character would seem to suggest the latter.