4-elements Monk

[JellyPooga]

So I've recently started in a new game playing a Monk and have been considering, for largely RP reasons, of going for the Way of 4-Elements. The campaign is heavily influenced by irish/celtic mythology and my character is loosely based on the style of the hero Cuchulain, which Monk fits well, I think. Add to that a background where he was raised/trained by a Giant (of the mystical, demi-god type, rather than the "just a big dude" D&D type) and his wife; a mountain Fey/Goddess (who was subsequently eaten by said Giant/husband) and that's where this character is at; looking for revenge for the devouring of his foster mum/lover (yeah, we got some Oedipal overtones going on here too).

Anyways, I digress. The point being; this guy is heading for 4-Elements Monk for reasons, so I wanted to discuss/ask advice on some of the options available. So let's get to it;

3rd Level
- Fist of Unbroken Air vs. Water Whip. On the surface, these two abilities look very similar; 3d10 damage, +1d10/extra Ki point spent, push/pull, prone effect. Much of a muchness, right? Except Water Whip is a Bonus Action while Unbroken Air is an Action. That's something I've overlooked since, uh, forever; straight up never noticed it. That's a game-changer. I mean, ok, it's 2 Ki compared to 1 for a Flurry, but it's 3d10 (avg.16) damage and also yanks a foe up to 25ft closer to you or knocks them prone, ready to be ganked by your main weapon attack. Just looking at damage, this is directly comparable to the output of a (Tier 1/Tier 2) Flurry of Blows and gives you a similar additional "control" to that which Open Hand offers. Yes, using Water Whip forgoes the additional Stunning Strike opportunities, but you still also have that option if stuns are what you need/want. Water Whip is...actually a pretty solid ability compared to other 3rd lvl. Monk subclass features. Scratch all of that; just checked the Errata, which changed Water Whip to be an Action, which puts it straight back into the "that pretty much sucks" category, along with all the other direct damage spells/abilities 4E Monk has access to. I'd welcome any insights to the contrary.

- Shape the Flowing River. At first I overlooked this one because it seems to be predicated on having access to significant quantities of water to be any use at all. However...assuming you do have access to a decent body of water/ice, it's actually pretty damned good considering the level you have access to it. I think it's worth reiterating that this is a feature you can get at 3rd level. Functionally, albeit situationally, this is a Wall of Ice style ability that can also be used to bridge rivers, create pits or difficult terrain that also forces Dex saves vs. being knocked prone, or anything your imagination can conjure...you can't directly damage or trap a creature with it, but you can shape ice capable of damaging or trapping a creature. It's not limited by duration or concentration either; once you turn the water to ice, it's ice. At least until it melts. Ice can be scary lethal, especially when you get to shape it (and I quote) "in any manner you desire". As a result of this lack of
Don't forget the utility of this ability either; it doesn't create magical ice, limited by the strictures of a spell description, it turns water to ice (or vice versa) and that has all sorts of function that doesn't necessarily rely on having a massive quantity to hand. Break a lock, shatter stone, freeze a sword in its scabbard, to name just a few things. Note also that this ability is not limited by line of sight or weight or anything else; it's only limited by area and the physical properties of water. If you like Minor Illusion for its utility, a clever player should also see the incredible potential in this.

6th level
For no apparent reason, the options here are super limited; take a 3rd level one, one that does basically the same thing as Stunning Strike or a sucky direct damage one that isn't significantly better than the 3rd lvl options. Tough one. I may just take Water Whip here anyway and stick to a watery theme.

11th level
Let's face it. It's Fly. I like Gaseous Form a lot and I may still go for it for flavour reasons, but Fly is the strong choice here. Right?

17th level
As solely damage dealing spells, Cone of Cold and Wall of Fire just aren't cutting the cheese at this level. Stoneskin could be a decentish choice if it were effective against magical attacks, but it's not. So that leaves Wall of Stone. It's no Wall of Force or Forcecage, but it's still pretty solid (pun intended). I'd appreciate any tips on using it.

I know it's not considered the best Monk subclass, but this will be my first Monk and would appreciate any advice. Cheers.

[Misterwhisper]

Advice on playing a monk:

1. 4 elements sucks, no way around that, it just sucks.

2. Drunken Master is great, reskin as needed if you don't want to play that style.

3. Open hand is good. The sanctuary ability is pretty pointless at the level you get it but the rest is good.

4. Kensei sucks almost as badly as 4 elements, UNLESS your DM will let you take unarmed strikes (or some type of unarmed weapon like knucks or something) as a kensei weapon.

5. Long death is ok, it has good sustainability but be careful with its level 6 fear ability, it targets all creatures not just enemies.

6. Sun soul is just a weak DBZ ripoff. Also it is odd that it can use its radiant ranged attack as normal attacks, and as flurry, but not as the normal martial arts bonus attack, so you can use it 1, 2, or 4 times in a round but not 3 times after level 5.

7. If you can use UA, the JOJO ripoff subclass of Astral Self is just outright broken as hell if you like that kind of thing.

8. Way of Mercy is good on paper but makes no sense in play, it is called way of mercy but half its abilities poison people.

9. If you want a feat for some reason, play a human, because all your ASI will probably be taken with stats.

10. Ki is a resource that comes back on a short rest, and you are a d8 class with mediocre AC, do not forget about patient defense.

11. After level 5 get use to the sentence: "Why didn't you just stunning strike him" because it is so much better than every other use of ki you have to justify not using it.

[Amechra]

Arguably, your Monk movement boost should apply to Gaseous Form. And, funnily enough, it does not stop you from using Fist of Unbroken Air/Water Whip, since they don't involve an attack roll and they aren't spells.

I'd also say that Gaseous Form is better on the versatility front - by the time you get it, you're looking at a 30ft fly speed instead of an 80ft fly speed, but you're also able to go anywhere that isn't full-on airtight. If you really want Fly, remember that you can trade out earlier elemental disciplines (including Elemental Attunement), so you can potentially grab both.

As for the 6th level feature... I would take another look at Hold Person. Sure, it fills a similar role to Stunning Strike, but it's a lot stronger if you're going to be facing a lot of humanoids.

[Zalabim]

So the first thing I'd say about the 4 elements disciplines is that they are all kinda niche in purpose, but they do have a purpose. You get to select a handful of things other monks cannot do at all and do them sometimes. If your DM is willing, I'd ask if there's a way you can learn more disciplines during the game. It's not a powerful addition. It just means you'll be more likely to have an ability for a wierd situation if it comes up. If you can get the ki-fueled strike from the alternate class features UA, that's mostly for 4 elements too.

The first thing you have to do is pick your discipline(s). That depends a whole lot on the campaign and your party. Some considerations are how often you get short rests and how well you can handle groups of enemies. Thunderwave still kills goblins and kobolds, Shatter can be used instead of inserting yourself into an enemy beatdown, and fireball never goes out of style. Aoes are for when you have 4+ enemies in the area. Pretty rare for burning hands, but pretty common with fireball. Still only use them when that can lead to finishing off enemies faster or keeping you out of danger.

If you're resting with Ki left over, Fangs of the Fire Snake can burn extra ki for some more DPR, and might find some use early for giving you extra reach and non-physical damage before level 6.

Other than that you're looking at utility picks. Shape the Flowing River looks fun. It's a solid choice, that flows into and meshes with wall of stone later for reshaping the environment. Don't discount Gust of Wind either. It counters vapors, snuffs lights, creates a sort of difficult terrain for slowing or funneling enemies, and even helps against prismatic wall.

I like the idea of snuffing campfires, without a word, up to 30' away, but you can replace Elemental Attunement later. You can know up to five disciplines eventually.

Fist of Unbroken Air can't be recommended as a ranged attack, but it works well against fliers, even as a reaction attack. Ready until they dive within range, then the blast can send them back up, and knock them prone, so they fall and take extra damage. This depends on your ranged weapons and your party, but is a fun one-off at low levels.

Hold Person is worth having if you're up against humanoids. Paralyze is harsher, the save type is different, and it can have range and multiple targets later.

The most important advice when playing is remember you are a monk first. Don't use a discipline where your core class abilities are fine. You can use a ranged weapon instead of Reaching with Fangs of the fire snake. Look at your team's initiative order before you use Hold Person. Don't use up ki on an enemy that can't fight back.

[MaxWilson]

I know it's not considered the best Monk subclass, but this will be my first Monk and would appreciate any advice. Cheers.

Here's some high-level advice: elemental monks have some decent AoE options for anti-mob play, but they cost ki. Stunning Strike is also good against single targets, but it also costs ki. Therefore, you need something fun and effective to do without spending ki, so you'll have it available when it's time to spend it. Martial Arts is fine, but kind of boring if the only thing you ever do is attack-attack-attack. Try to take advantage of DMG options like Disarm where possible, and alternative equipment such as the Net. Additionally, I had a lot of fun at one point with a vhuman [Prodigy (Athletics)] monk, boosting Dex at 4th level and aiming for Defensive Duelist at 8th level (never got there). Instead of your standard skimishy monk, he was more of a grab-you-by-the-throat-slam-you-prone-and-beat-your-brains-out monk, which was fun and different and quite ki-efficient. Unlike a normal grappler, monks don't lose out on shield AC or offensive output when one hand is busy with a grapple.

So anyway, my high-level advice is to plan what your ki-free action is going to be.

[Asisreo1]

Advice on playing a monk:

1. 4 elements sucks, no way around that, it just sucks.

2. Drunken Master is great, reskin as needed if you don't want to play that style.

3. Open hand is good. The sanctuary ability is pretty pointless at the level you get it but the rest is good.

4. Kensei sucks almost as badly as 4 elements, UNLESS your DM will let you take unarmed strikes (or some type of unarmed weapon like knucks or something) as a kensei weapon.

5. Long death is ok, it has good sustainability but be careful with its level 6 fear ability, it targets all creatures not just enemies.

6. Sun soul is just a weak DBZ ripoff. Also it is odd that it can use its radiant ranged attack as normal attacks, and as flurry, but not as the normal martial arts bonus attack, so you can use it 1, 2, or 4 times in a round but not 3 times after level 5.

7. If you can use UA, the JOJO ripoff subclass of Astral Self is just outright broken as hell if you like that kind of thing.

8. Way of Mercy is good on paper but makes no sense in play, it is called way of mercy but half its abilities poison people.

9. If you want a feat for some reason, play a human, because all your ASI will probably be taken with stats.

10. Ki is a resource that comes back on a short rest, and you are a d8 class with mediocre AC, do not forget about patient defense.

11. After level 5 get use to the sentence: "Why didn't you just stunning strike him" because it is so much better than every other use of ki you have to justify not using it.

Is stunning strike really all that good? Like, honestly? Most BBEG's are going to have some combination of Con save proficiency, Stun immunity, and Legendary Resistance to back them up. And you probably don't want to use your Stunning Strike on the mook. Stunning Strike falls off heavy later levels, too. Almost all creatures begin to get magical resistance and the aforementioned buffs.

[Asisreo1]

Here's some high-level advice: elemental monks have some decent AoE options for anti-mob play, but they cost ki. Stunning Strike is also good against single targets, but it also costs ki. Therefore, you need something fun and effective to do without spending ki, so you'll have it available when it's time to spend it. Martial Arts is fine, but kind of boring if the only thing you ever do is attack-attack-attack. Try to take advantage of DMG options like Disarm where possible, and alternative equipment such as the Net. Additionally, I had a lot of fun at one point with a vhuman [Prodigy (Athletics)] monk, boosting Dex at 4th level and aiming for Defensive Duelist at 8th level (never got there). Instead of your standard skimishy monk, he was more of a grab-you-by-the-throat-slam-you-prone-and-beat-your-brains-out monk, which was fun and different and quite ki-efficient. Unlike a normal grappler, monks don't lose out on shield AC or offensive output when one hand is busy with a grapple.

So anyway, my high-level advice is to plan what your ki-free action is going to be.

I'm going to flip the script and say: Do use your Ki.

Of course, you don't want to blow it all at once but anytime you rest with Ki points leftover, you're resting with wasted Ki points that could've gone into a burning hands or flurry of blows. The excess just goes away and unlike spellcasters, there isn't much of anything that can carry over past a short rest that Ki points are useful for.

In fact, 4-elements should be stronger in practice than most other monk archetypes. If there's only 1-3 combats a day in the majority of games, why is it suddenly bad to have 3-5 ki points spent? You can probably squeeze a short rest between the 1-3 encounters, too.

If it's a full adventuring day, shouldn't the Ki points be effectively tripled, since you're assumed to take two short rests?

Has anyone even used 4-elements or did they just make the character and didn't like how they thought they'd play instead of actually playing one?

I mean, guys, elemental attunement isn't even that niche. Earth, Fire, Water, and air is literally everywhere. In a political campaign or a dungeon, there's going to be earth (the ground, duh, perfect for making crude weapons like clubs or quarterstaves for free), fire (light, your own torches or the lights in the surroundings), water (someone's gotta drink, including you and the beasts you're fighting), and mist (guys, there's mist everywhere.)

[Kane0]

Is your DM open to ‘brew? Theres quite a few that make 4E monks a lot more fun, even really simple changes like elemental cantrips and some extra ki just for your elemental disciplines.

Or just fail to inform the DM of the errata to Water Whip :P

[Contrast]

Is stunning strike really all that good? Like, honestly? Most BBEG's are going to have some combination of Con save proficiency, Stun immunity, and Legendary Resistance to back them up. And you probably don't want to use your Stunning Strike on the mook. Stunning Strike falls off heavy later levels, too. Almost all creatures begin to get magical resistance and the aforementioned buffs.

Of all the creatures ever printed in any official book, 40 have stun immunity. Of those, 14 are swarms. There is, for example, no dragon (well...Tiamat) who has stun immunity in its printed stat block.

I would say Stunning Strike is also one of the most efficient ways to burn Legendary Resistances as no boss character can afford to spend a turn stunned and you can be dishing out out so many saves that they will be failing them.

I do not believe Stunning Strike would interact with Magic Resistance - it isn't described as magical in the text unless I've missed something?

[Garfunion]

I’m not sure if this is helpful, I’ve always had an idea about convincing my DM to allow me to use a whip as a monk weapon. Combine that with the spell sniper feat, pick up booming blade cantrip and elemental(air) disciplines Telling everyone I’m a monk of the silent whip technique.

Just an idea.

[MaxWilson]

Is stunning strike really all that good? Like, honestly? Most BBEG's are going to have some combination of Con save proficiency, Stun immunity, and Legendary Resistance to back them up. And you probably don't want to use your Stunning Strike on the mook. Stunning Strike falls off heavy later levels, too. Almost all creatures begin to get magical resistance and the aforementioned buffs.

It depends, e.g. on whether or not your party has a Sharpshooter or a bunch of conjured minions who can exploit that stun immunity for massive damage, and on whether the bad guy has a good Con save. Vampires and Beholders, for example, have "only" +4 to Con saves, so Stunning Strike works well on them (though of course you have to burn through a Vampire's Legendary Resists too).

Stunning Strike on an opportunity attack is also pretty decent movement-control, though not as good as Sentinel of course.

Overall I'd say Stunning Strike is good when the PCs outnumber the bad guys, and AoEs are good when the bad guys greatly outnumber the PCs.

[Asisreo1]

Of all the creatures ever printed in any official book, 40 have stun immunity. Of those, 14 are swarms. There is, for example, no dragon (well...Tiamat) who has stun immunity in its printed stat block.

I would say Stunning Strike is also one of the most efficient ways to burn Legendary Resistances as no boss character can afford to spend a turn stunned and you can be dishing out out so many saves that they will be failing them.

I do not believe Stunning Strike would interact with Magic Resistance - it isn't described as magical in the text unless I've missed something?

All dragons are proficient in Constitution saving throws, which makes them unlikely to fail, and they have legendary resistance, which covers them if they do. But it's unlikely they'll fail before you just run out of Ki or something.

For instance, at lvl 20, your save DC is 19 but an ancient Blue Dragon has a bonus of 15, meaning he has to roll 4 or less. And you get a maximum of 20 chances to do that, assuming no resources spent beforehand. Even then, it's far more likely that they'll not be in melee with a monk anyways.

Actually, now that I look at it, 4-Element monks are the only monk archetype that can work against flying enemies. They can use burning hands if something lingers above them, they can use water whip (even ready it) to knock a flying creature prone, they can use unbroken air to the same effect, they can cast fly to just be up there with the enemy.

Other monks really suffer against a hit-and-run style flight enemy, which is basically all of them because why land when they can't reach from up high.

Also, the book calls Ki "magical" in the blurb next to the monk's table titled: The Magic of Ki. So I'd assume Ki stuff is magical. I guess it can be up to interpretation, though.

[ImproperJustice]

Currently playing a level 12, 4e Monk.

It’s not great, but not unplayable by a long shot.

Course, it helps if you get into a Warlock mindset and stop stressing about saving your Ki all the time.

A well placed Fireball will outperform 4 stunning strike attempts, there I said it.

Fly makes you unhittable in some conflicts. Get yourself a bow, it’s ok.

I am fortunate that my GM kept water whip as a bonus action so you can do wall run or flyby grab shenanigans, hit a guy a few times and let them drop.
Bonus points if there are pits or nasty AOE effects around.

And you can still run around and do boring regular monk stuff when you want to.

Ki comes back on a short rest which isn’t that hard to come by.

And Elemental Attunement is as fun and broken as you are allowed to be with it.
I like setting fires from visual range myself, or heating rocks star trek style, or mini mold earthing / water shaping.

I have had fun with the class.

[Contrast]

All dragons are proficient in Constitution saving throws, which makes them unlikely to fail, and they have legendary resistance, which covers them if they do. But it's unlikely they'll fail before you just run out of Ki or something.

Some (incredibly rough) math on my part suggests you'll probably run out of Ki just as you exhaust their legendary resistances. The hope of course is that other people in the party will also be trying to inflict save effects - if they're not (and not bohering with save effects is a reasonable response to legendary resistances in fairness) then yes, not a great target. My point remains - if you're trying to beat through legendary resistances, no-one else can force three saves in a turn and particularly ones that the creature will always consider a must pass.

Actually, now that I look at it, 4-Element monks are the only monk archetype that can work against flying enemies. They can use burning hands if something lingers above them, they can use water whip (even ready it) to knock a flying creature prone, they can use unbroken air to the same effect, they can cast fly to just be up there with the enemy.

I mean if the dragon is flying there's no need for it to be within 15 or 30ft of you really. Its probably just circling around 100s of ft in the air waiting for its breath weapon to recharge. This is more a weakness of the class - I'd suggest Kensai is the solution if flying enemies are a personal bugbear but *shrugs* Self casting fly is a nice ability but a risky tactic given concentration issues.

Also, the book calls Ki "magical" in the blurb next to the monk's table titled: The Magic of Ki. So I'd assume Ki stuff is magical. I guess it can be up to interpretation, though.

If Crawfords opinion means anything to you they were not intended to be magic.

[JellyPooga]

Arguably, your Monk movement boost should apply to Gaseous Form. And, funnily enough, it does not stop you from using Fist of Unbroken Air/Water Whip, since they don't involve an attack roll and they aren't spells.

Hmm, I hadn't considered the possibility of the movement boost; personally I don't read it that way, but I'll ask my GM. It's a bit of tricksy legalese to allow Unbroken Air/Water Whip while in Gaseous Form, so I probably won't take advantage of it, but it's a valid point RAW.

I'd also say that Gaseous Form is better on the versatility front - by the time you get it, you're looking at a 30ft fly speed instead of an 80ft fly speed, but you're also able to go anywhere that isn't full-on airtight. If you really want Fly, remember that you can trade out earlier elemental disciplines (including Elemental Attunement), so you can potentially grab both.

I'm a big fan of Gaseous Form, especially when you're able to use it frequently (as would be the case here); it's a great infiltration and scouting spell that also renders doors and locks irrelevant to you. I suppose the other big consideration is that the party as a whole should probably have access to Fly anyway, whether from magic items or full-casters being able to cast it. This makes the utility aspect of Gaseous Form a little more relevant.

As for the 6th level feature... I would take another look at Hold Person. Sure, it fills a similar role to Stunning Strike, but it's a lot stronger if you're going to be facing a lot of humanoids.

My main worry about Hold Person is that the campaign is likely to be very focused on fighting against Fey, Giants and Animals. Sure, we might see a few combats with Humanoids, but I'm honestly not expecting it. Perhaps if the campaign develops in a different direction, I'll consider it. The other concern I have is...what the deuce has an Enchantment spell that befuddles the minds of your enemies have to do with manipulating the "four elements"? I could understand it if it was a reflavoured "ice" version or "earthen grasp" or something, or even if the subclass was "Way of Five Elements" (which would be way more appropriate, given the usual themes of Monks, but I digress), but as it is? It feels totally out of place.

So the first thing I'd say about the 4 elements disciplines is that they are all kinda niche in purpose, but they do have a purpose.
[snip]
The most important advice when playing is remember you are a monk first. Don't use a discipline where your core class abilities are fine. You can use a ranged weapon instead of Reaching with Fangs of the fire snake. Look at your team's initiative order before you use Hold Person. Don't use up ki on an enemy that can't fight back.

I think this is solid advice. The subclass does not define the Class, only adds to it. I shall bear it in mind.

Fist of Unbroken Air can't be recommended as a ranged attack, but it works well against fliers, even as a reaction attack. Ready until they dive within range, then the blast can send them back up, and knock them prone, so they fall and take extra damage. This depends on your ranged weapons and your party, but is a fun one-off at low levels.

Hadn't considered that use of FoUA; an extra 2d6 damage, plus the original fall damage is not to be overlooked! Thanks for pointing it out.

[Asisreo1]

I mean if the dragon is flying there's no need for it to be within 15 or 30ft of you really. Its probably just circling around 100s of ft in the air waiting for its breath weapon to recharge. This is more a weakness of the class - I'd suggest Kensai is the solution if flying enemies are a personal bugbear but *shrugs* Self casting fly is a nice ability but a risky tactic given concentration issues.

Even an ancient dragon would get within 20ft. It's breath weapon is, by far, the greatest attack it has but it's a recharge skill. While it's up there, a warlock might be shooting EB's and the fighter might be landing their +3 bow attacks 4 times.

The dragon can't just wait, it needs to attack as much as possible. They'd want as many people dead as soon as possible so they'd swoop down and take out the spellcasters and ranged combatants. But if they swoop for you, or if you stay close to the spellcaster, you can intercept and knock it prone. The barbarian can try grappling and next turn you can go for the stunning strikes.

Other monks can't really do this. Even a Kensei monk only really gets to hit the dragon, they can't knock it prone as much. It's impressive enough they can cast and upcast fireball too. You get AoE from far away. 4-Element monks seem underwhelming on paper but nobody really takes the full scope of an adventure in those calculations. You can't really beat a trap with damage and your high AC isn't going to steer the boat. Likewise, a full adventure is going to have places where you can't solve everything with ranged attacks and high damage.

[HiveStriker]

Advice on playing a monk:

1. 4 elements sucks, no way around that, it just sucks.

{Scrubbed}

So I've recently started in a new game playing a Monk and have been considering, for largely RP reasons, of going for the Way of 4-Elements. The campaign is heavily influenced by irish/celtic mythology and my character is loosely based on the style of the hero Cuchulain, which Monk fits well, I think. Add to that a background where he was raised/trained by a Giant (of the mystical, demi-god type, rather than the "just a big dude" D&D type) and his wife; a mountain Fey/Goddess (who was subsequently eaten by said Giant/husband) and that's where this character is at; looking for revenge for the devouring of his foster mum/lover (yeah, we got some Oedipal overtones going on here too).

Anyways, I digress. The point being; this guy is heading for 4-Elements Monk for reasons, so I wanted to discuss/ask advice on some of the options available. So let's get to it;

I know it's not considered the best Monk subclass, but this will be my first Monk and would appreciate any advice. Cheers.

@JellyPooga
So choice is indeed tricky, but I'd say it's rather because all options are effective, but their effective worth does depend on your party composition.
(By the way, it's actually one of the best archetypes to play, it just has a slower start and is more complex to "build" than others).

Quick rundown.

Spoiler: Rundown on Disciplines, uses, strengths and weaknesses

Show

1. Fangs of the Fire Snake
My default go-to when I don't expect water bodies to be prominent (or even at least common). For just one Ki, you effectively get the benefits of Disengage and 2/3 of a Dash along with ensuring you bypass physical resistance. Making it by far the most cost-effective ability of all 4e kit (and in the top half of all archetypes).

The main limitation is that if affects only unarmed attacks, so until you get at least 1d6 (level 5) it should be seen more as a "offensive defense" or "slight damage boost".
It's still usable at later levels, in fact even better on the "enhanced mobility" part since many more creature get 10 feet reach and higher speed, but the fact that it's forcibly fire damage makes it useless against quite a number of creatures. Which is the main reason why one usually will swap it for something else at level 11 at most, unless you have some ways to nullify elemental resistance.
(If we could freely choose the element type, this would be hands-down the best of all <17 abilities).

So the sweet spot for using it is usually somewhere between level 3 and level 9, more levels meaning you can use it more often. Possibly trying a nova lashout with "spend extra ki for more damage", although it's imx not often the best use for your Ki unless short rest coming soon after.

2. Shape Flowing Water
My default go-to in adventures where body waters are expectedly common. You did a pretty good brush on what it can be used for. My most common uses for it have been creating unexpected paths for creatures (crossing a river to greatly cut time instead of finding a bridge, bypassing a water trench that was supposed to prevents invaders from reaching castle walls), otherwise setting up environmental advantage (block a ship, create cover) or water itself (try and redirect some part of flow to keep objects/creatures from flooding away).
Honestly YMMV greatly depending on circumstances, but if you feel creative, you will probably find enough uses for it to be glad you picked it. Plus it's not using any Ki, so it's not like experimentations cost you anything (except maybe some bad rep if you end hurting people or people's goods XD).

3. Thunderwave
Great panic button, although I would argue the best efficiency for it is when you're surrounded, and a good Monk normally never lets himself be surrounded... Unless on purpose.
The 2ki cost makes it best used from level 6-7 onwards anyways, it's not friendly, and it targets Constitution.
Making it probably the lest option of all: if creatures are weak against CON, it's probably better to just avoid surround and Stun one. If you want an AOE option, DEX-ones (Burning Hands, Shatter) will usually work better.
Unless for fluff reasons, not a good pick overall sadly.

4. Unbroken Air & Water Whip
Both must be seen as control abilities with ensured minimum damage.
Of both, I usually prefer Unbroken Air because it "pushes" and I rarely play my Monk as the main frontliner and I usually keep distances rather than closing them.
So I'll use it most often as a deterrent to prevent an enemy from reaching me because I can't simply move away myself, or freeing up a friend from OA risk by pushing threatening enemy away.
However, both are really great and can be equally useful. For exemple, Water Whip can be used to set up a Sentinel / Grapple for your melee pal, or simply bringing a creature (back) in any AOE (Cleric's Spirit Guardians, Stinking Cloud, etc).

Both actually have no real ceiling: the more you level up, the more often you can afford to use them "basically" or "as a nova", making them also great against casters (minimum scalable damage means if party's life or death depends on caster failing save, you have a high probability of breaking it).

And combined with Fly, it makes you great against any enemy, including Flying ones (usually a simple Stunning Strike would be more efficient cost-wise to make them fall prone, but either of these provides an alternative when CON is unlikely to land).

5. Burning Hands
A pretty decent ability cost-wise: your mobility helps you position efficiently to get as many creatures as possible, and it does decent damage: you can consider it an good enough use with 3 creatures affected, efficient beyond that.
Sweet spot for use is level 4-8.
Honestly a good pick in a low AOE party. Of course, if you have a Fiend Warlock or an Evoker Wizard, forget it. ^^ Unless you play a chaotic character that threatens everything and everyone through fire, could work too. XD

6. Shatter
Overall an improvement over Burning Hands: you cannot set objects ablaze (but a torch can do the job, just carry a backpack even if it hurts the "only my own body" Monk image XD), but it's now a distance AOE, that creates big sound, has less resisted damage type, and can destroy objects. Too bad it targets Constitution and has a small radius. Grab it to use creatively.
If your main aim is "using ability to damage group of enemies", you'd better stick to Burning Hands until you can get Fireball because it targets DEX.

7. Gust of Wind
a great spell to use... In a small array of situations. Sadly, too small to make it a good pick as an ability to keep for dozens of hours. If at least the duration was more on the hour, it could be used as an autonomous propeller for sailing.
As is, it's great essentially to take care of fires or hamper enemy movement and attack (Dodge + Deflect Arrows) in a small corridor while your friends rain arrows and spells on them.

8. Hold Person
My default choice for level 6 pick. This is Stunning Strike, except much better: targets WIS, makes 5-feet away attacks autocrit, can last several rounds without further interaction, does not require melee range to try.
If people expect you to exert single-target control through Stun, this is the definitive option. And it scales!
Yeah, it targets only humanoids, but honestly, I never encountered a game where humanoids weren't at least 1/3 (if not 50%) of all enemies encountered.
Of course, if you fear that in your own game this would rarely be usable, then put it aside.

9. Gaseous Form
A great, great pick if you want to act as the team spy: benefits from Monk's bonus speed, gives ways to infiltrate places even Shadow Monk could have trouble sneaking into.
Otherwise could be mainly used as an emergency defense/runaway feature, but that's in my taste too situational to justify taking it if spy/scout is not up to your taste.
NOTE though: technically you could spend all time in Gaseous Form if you wanted so. ^^

10. Fireball
Another great pick: great casting distance, great damage, for just 4 measly Ki points.
Unless your party has already solid AOE (like aforementioned Warlock or Wizard, or dedicated blasting Sorcerer) and you don't fancy damage that much this cannot be a bad choice. The "damage/cost" ratio surpasses everything any Monk can offer (except Quivering Palm ;)) and groups of creatures are a constant in any game.
Of course, you cannot except mass-kill because by that level most creatures would require at least 3 (or two damn lucky) Fireball, and that's if they are not resistant.
But having one more guy that guy take out a big chunk of health of a group of enemies is never a bad thing.
One of my two defaulting choices for level 11, the other being obviously...

11. Fly
Unless you're in a subterranean campaign or something, this spell is simply an amazing enabler and enhancer of your Monkiness. And it becomes awesome when you make a decent grappler of your Monk (which does require Expertise in Atlhetics one way or another).
Of course, you can be awesome without it too, it's not like it's "mandatory" for a regular Monk, especially since you already get wall run and water run on top of +20 feet already.
But it just makes it so easier to thwart whatever plan or defensive formation enemy have to keep a treasure or protect a caster. If makes you so damn threatening against flyers, it makes it so much more difficult for people to block and/or threaten you!
And it makes all your other abilities so much easier to use in an optimal way!
It does require quite a bit of space to be really enjoyed though. In that regard, one could argue that Gaseous Form actually provides a more versatile form of flight... But Fly allows you to fight. ^^

12. Cone of Cold
great AOE, especially paired with Fly. Problem is the high cost of both combined, so I would only pick it if by that level you could confirm that your party is great at providing short rests AND it still needs high AOE. Or, of course, you just fancy being the master of cold and heat (pair with Fire Wall ^^).

13. Stoneskin
the only one ability that is just here to make the list count go up by one. Next level you get resistance to all damage + higher defense and offense in most cases, for one minute, for just 4 Ki.
This spell could have been decent at level 11. NOT at 17. Let's politely forget it.

14. Wall of Fire
even at that level, still a great use for your ki. Lasts one minute, blocks sight (use defensively), gets automatic damage (melee deterrent): especially good paired with Unbroken Air or if anyone else in your party has push abilities (*cough* Repelling Blast *cough*).
One of my go-to picks for level 17, depending on how I played in the party so far.

15. Wall of Stone
My "true default" choice for level 17: can be used to quickly create some defenses, to block view from enemies, as a protected vantage point for fellow archers, as a makeshift prison, as a makeshift safe place, as your personal gladiator arena to face an enemy one-on-one (knowing that you can still easily run away by wall-running if needed you leazy Monk)... And otherwise useful to help people around, accelerating building construction, making temporary barrages, etc...
Just useable in so many ways I'm usually reluctant to pass on it, even at that level.

And here follows a few example builds. :)

Spoiler: Few examples of disciplines (+ feats sometimes) combinations

Show

My usual picks as 4E:
- Versatile: has something pertinent to do in any situation
Elemental Attunement -> Unbroken Air | Water Whip | Shape River (lvl 6)
Fangs of the Fire Snake -> Fireball (lvl 11) (because I took Mobile somewhen)
Hold Person -> Fireball (lvl 11) (if I feel it's become too situational)
Fly
Wall of Stone
NOTE: Gaesous Form sometimes gets over Fireball or Fly depending on party specifics.

- Controller Monk (STR): priority on controlling enemy movement and actions (Alert + Grappler)
Elemental Attunement -> Water Whip (close distance by all means) (lvl 6)
Fangs of the Fire Snake (kept because spares some feet for Stunning Strike)
Hold Person (change for Unbroken Air if feels too situational)
Fly
Wall of Stone (drop people in prison or block escape, or both at once)

- Damaging Monk (WIS): priority on engaging with AOE, closing in for Stunning Strike
Elemental Attunement -> Burning Hands (lvl 6) -> Fireball (lvl 11)
Unbroken Air
Hold Person -> Cone of Cold (lvl 17).
Fly
Wall of Fire
(classic combos: opening Fireball + Fly + Stunning Strike, or Wall of Fire + Unbroken Air, or Fly then "vertical" Cone of Cold).

- "Sparing" (not sparring!) Monk: use Ki sparingly because short rests are scarce.
Elemental Attunement -> Unbroken Air | Shape River (lvl 6)
Fangs of the Fire Snake
Hold Person
Fly
whatever

- "Spy" Monk: grab Ritual Caster: Cleric to get some Detect Rituals and Silence, Observant.
Elemental Attunement
Fangs of the Fire Snake -> Water Whip (if DM allows it to grab objects) | Shatter
Gaseous Form
Fly

Finally, some general tips.
1. Use and abuse distance attacks until you have a real reason to get close & dirty (like using Flurry because you have 100% chance of finishing an enemy off). Don't be afraid to be afraid if I may: thrown weapons and Dodge as bonus action are your friends, even if you do pick either Fangs of Fire Snake or Mobile feat early to finally be able to engage into full round melee attacks with controlled risk of backlash.

2. Don't see Stunning Strike as an autowin button, it really isn't. People speak to its glory widely on this forum, but forget about all the times it fails. And that will be often. See it as an all-in option until your party starts getting the hang of enabling regular short rests and you can do a full-blown attempt while keeping at least 2-3 ki for the remaining of the fight.

3. Don't use the "extra damage per ki" options on anything you decide to learn unless it's really imperative that your target dies/fails concentration right now (= before it can act: still worth if your nova puts HP low enough it gets killed by your friends if it means avoiding a nasty attack/effect on next round).

4. Your strength is your mobility: make it your mantra ;) Even more than with regular martials try to plan your positioning to minimalize melee threat to you, don't hesitate to make wild moves from one round with another if it puts you to safety unless you do want to aggro some threat to protect a friend.

5. You're no good if you're down: following points 2 and 4, don't hesitate to spend Ki on a Dodge or Dash rather than a "damage improvement" option, unless you feel it makes a real difference in your target ending dead before next round or not. Once you get enough defensive features and AC improvements to make you more resilient you can start shifting depenses towards offensive abilities.

-----
If you're unsure about what you may fancy, I'd suggest asking your DM a simple houserule: not even "learning more", simply having the ability to swap one Discipline if possible during downtime, at worst on every level (and not only when you learn another discipline).

[Asisreo1]

{Scrub the post, scrub the quote}

@JellyPooga
So choice is indeed tricky, but I'd say it's rather because all options are effective, but their effective worth does depend on your party composition.
(By the way, it's actually one of the best archetypes to play, it just has a slower start and is more complex to "build" than others).

Quick rundown.

1. Fangs of the Fire Snake
My default go-to when I don't expect water bodies to be prominent (or even at least common). For just one Ki, you effectively get the benefits of Disengage and 2/3 of a Dash along with ensuring you bypass physical resistance. Making it by far the most cost-effective ability of all 4e kit (and in the top half of all archetypes).

The main limitation is that if affects only unarmed attacks, so until you get at least 1d6 (level 5) it should be seen more as a "offensive defense" or "slight damage boost".
It's still usable at later levels, in fact even better on the "enhanced mobility" part since many more creature get 10 feet reach and higher speed, but the fact that it's forcibly fire damage makes it useless against quite a number of creatures. Which is the main reason why one usually will swap it for something else at level 11 at most, unless you have some ways to nullify elemental resistance.
(If we could freely choose the element type, this would be hands-down the best of all <17 abilities).

So the sweet spot for using it is usually somewhere between level 3 and level 9, more levels meaning you can use it more often. Possibly trying a nova lashout with "spend extra ki for more damage", although it's imx not often the best use for your Ki unless short rest coming soon after.

2. Shape Flowing Water
My default go-to in adventures where body waters are expectedly common. You did a pretty good brush on what it can be used for. My most common uses for it have been creating unexpected paths for creatures (crossing a river to greatly cut time instead of finding a bridge, bypassing a water trench that was supposed to prevents invaders from reaching castle walls), otherwise setting up environmental advantage (block a ship, create cover) or water itself (try and redirect some part of flow to keep objects/creatures from flooding away).
Honestly YMMV greatly depending on circumstances, but if you feel creative, you will probably find enough uses for it to be glad you picked it. Plus it's not using any Ki, so it's not like experimentations cost you anything (except maybe some bad rep if you end hurting people or people's goods XD).

3. Thunderwave: great panic button, although I would argue the best efficiency for it is when you're surrounded, and a good Monk normally never lets himself be surrounded... Unless on purpose.
The 2ki cost makes it best used from level 6-7 onwards anyways, it's not friendly, and it targets Constitution.
Making it probably the lest option of all: if creatures are weak against CON, it's probably better to just avoid surround and Stun one. If you want an AOE option, DEX-ones (Burning Hands, Shatter) will usually work better.
Unless for fluff reasons, not a good pick overall sadly.

4. Unbroken Air & Water Whip: both must be seen as control abilities with ensured minimum damage.
Of both, I usually prefer Unbroken Air because it "pushes" and I rarely play my Monk as the main frontliner and I usually keep distances rather than closing them.
So I'll use it most often as a deterrent to prevent an enemy from reaching me because I can't simply move away myself, or freeing up a friend from OA risk by pushing threatening enemy away.
However, both are really great and can be equally useful. For exemple, Water Whip can be used to set up a Sentinel / Grapple for your melee pal, or simply bringing a creature (back) in any AOE (Cleric's Spirit Guardians, Stinking Cloud, etc).

Both actually have no real ceiling: the more you level up, the more often you can afford to use them "basically" or "as a nova", making them also great against casters (minimum scalable damage means if party's life or death depends on caster failing save, you have a high probability of breaking it).

And combined with Fly, it makes you great against any enemy, including Flying ones (usually a simple Stunning Strike would be more efficient cost-wise to make them fall prone, but either of these provides an alternative when CON is unlikely to land).

5. Burning Hands: a pretty decent ability cost-wise: your mobility helps you position efficiently to get as many creatures as possible, and it does decent damage: you can consider it an good enough use with 3 creatures affected, efficient beyond that.
Sweet spot for use is level 4-8.
Honestly a good pick in a low AOE party. Of course, if you have a Fiend Warlock or an Evoker Wizard, forget it. ^^ Unless you play a chaotic character that threatens everything and everyone through fire, could work too. XD

6. Shatter: overall an improvement over Burning Hands: you cannot set objects ablaze (but a torch can do the job, just carry a backpack even if it hurts the "only my own body" Monk image XD), but it's now a distance AOE, that creates big sound, has less resisted damage type, and can destroy objects. Too bad it targets Constitution and has a small radius. Grab it to use creatively.
If your main aim is "using ability to damage group of enemies", you'd better stick to Burning Hands until you can get Fireball because it targets DEX.

7. Gust of Wind: a great spell to use... In a small array of situations. Sadly, too small to make it a good pick as an ability to keep for dozens of hours. If at least the duration was more on the hour, it could be used as an autonomous propeller for sailing.
As is, it's great essentially to take care of fires or hamper enemy movement and attack (Dodge + Deflect Arrows) in a small corridor while your friends rain arrows and spells on them.

8. Hold Person: my default choice for level 6 pick. This is Stunning Strike, except much better: targets WIS, makes 5-feet away attacks autocrit, can last several rounds without further interaction, does not require melee range to try.
If people expect you to exert single-target control through Stun, this is the definitive option. And it scales!
Yeah, it targets only humanoids, but honestly, I never encountered a game where humanoids weren't at least 1/3 (if not 50%) of all enemies encountered.
Of course, if you fear that in your own game this would rarely be usable, then put it aside.

9. Gaseous Form: a great, great pick if you want to act as the team spy: benefits from Monk's bonus speed, gives ways to infiltrate places even Shadow Monk could have trouble sneaking into.
Otherwise could be mainly used as an emergency defense/runaway feature, but that's in my taste too situational to justify taking it if spy/scout is not up to your taste.
NOTE though: technically you could spend all time in Gaseous Form if you wanted so. ^^

10. Fireball: another great pick: great casting distance, great damage, for just 4 measly Ki points.
Unless your party has already solid AOE (like aforementioned Warlock or Wizard, or dedicated blasting Sorcerer) and you don't fancy damage that much this cannot be a bad choice. The "damage/cost" ratio surpasses everything any Monk can offer (except Quivering Palm ;)) and groups of creatures are a constant in any game.
Of course, you cannot except mass-kill because by that level most creatures would require at least 3 (or two damn lucky) Fireball, and that's if they are not resistant.
But having one more guy that guy take out a big chunk of health of a group of enemies is never a bad thing.
One of my two defaulting choices for level 11, the other being obviously...

11. Fly: unless you're in a subterranean campaign or something, this spell is simply an amazing enabler and enhancer of your Monkiness. And it becomes awesome when you make a decent grappler of your Monk (which does require Expertise in Atlhetics one way or another).
Of course, you can be awesome without it too, it's not like it's "mandatory" for a regular Monk, especially since you already get wall run and water run on top of +20 feet already.
But it just makes it so easier to thwart whatever plan or defensive formation enemy have to keep a treasure or protect a caster. If makes you so damn threatening against flyers, it makes it so much more difficult for people to block and/or threaten you!
And it makes all your other abilities so much easier to use in an optimal way!
It does require quite a bit of space to be really enjoyed though. In that regard, one could argue that Gaseous Form actually provides a more versatile form of flight... But Fly allows you to fight. ^^

12. Cone of Cold: great AOE, especially paired with Fly. Problem is the high cost of both combined, so I would only pick it if by that level you could confirm that your party is great at providing short rests AND it still needs high AOE. Or, of course, you just fancy being the master of cold and heat (pair with Fire Wall ^^).

13. Stoneskin: the only one ability that is just here to make the list count go up by one. Next level you get resistance to all damage + higher defense and offense in most cases, for one minute, for just 4 Ki.
This spell could have been decent at level 11. NOT at 17. Let's politely forget it.

14. Wall of Fire: even at that level, still a great use for your ki. Lasts one minute, blocks sight (use defensively), gets automatic damage (melee deterrent): especially good paired with Unbroken Air or if anyone else in your party has push abilities (*cough* Repelling Blast *cough*).
One of my go-to picks for level 17, depending on how I played in the party so far.

15. Wall of Stone: my "true default" choice for level 17: can be used to quickly create some defenses, to block view from enemies, as a protected vantage point for fellow archers, as a makeshift prison, as a makeshift safe place, as your personal gladiator arena to face an enemy one-on-one (knowing that you can still easily run away by wall-running if needed you leazy Monk)... And otherwise useful to help people around, accelerating building construction, making temporary barrages, etc...
Just useable in so many ways I'm usually reluctant to pass on it, even at that level.


My usual picks as 4E:
- Versatile: has something pertinent to do in any situation
Elemental Attunement -> Unbroken Air | Water Whip | Shape River (lvl 6)
Fangs of the Fire Snake -> Fireball (lvl 11) (because I took Mobile somewhen)
Hold Person -> Fireball (lvl 11) (if I feel it's become too situational)
Fly
Wall of Stone
NOTE: Gaesous Form sometimes gets over Fireball or Fly depending on party specifics.

- Controller Monk (STR): priority on controlling enemy movement and actions (Alert + Grappler)
Elemental Attunement -> Water Whip (close distance by all means) (lvl 6)
Fangs of the Fire Snake (kept because spares some feet for Stunning Strike)
Hold Person (change for Unbroken Air if feels too situational)
Fly
Wall of Stone (drop people in prison or block escape, or both at once)

- Damaging Monk (WIS): priority on engaging with AOE, closing in for Stunning Strike
Elemental Attunement -> Burning Hands (lvl 6) -> Fireball (lvl 11)
Unbroken Air
Hold Person -> Cone of Cold (lvl 17).
Fly
Wall of Fire
(classic combos: opening Fireball + Fly + Stunning Strike, or Wall of Fire + Unbroken Air, or Fly then "vertical" Cone of Cold).

- "Sparing" (not sparring!) Monk: use Ki sparingly because short rests are scarce.
Elemental Attunement -> Unbroken Air | Shape River (lvl 6)
Fangs of the Fire Snake
Hold Person
Fly
whatever

- "Spy" Monk: grab Ritual Caster: Cleric to get some Detect Rituals and Silence, Observant.
Elemental Attunement
Fangs of the Fire Snake -> Water Whip (if DM allows it to grab objects) | Shatter
Gaseous Form
Fly

-----
If you're unsure about what you may fancy, I'd suggest asking your DM a simple houserule: not even "learning more", simply having the ability to swap one Discipline if possible during downtime, at worst on every level (and not only when you learn another discipline).

Most people who say 4-Elements is a bad archetype hssn't played it over 2-3 adventures. They never got the feel for the character, they just got a feel for their calculators. 4-elements is a nice class.

Stoneskin is a pretty garbage pick but if you're looking for any niche usefulness: it lasts longer. Since it lasts longer, it's more cost effective when roaming trap-filled dungeons. You'd probably encounter a trap every 10-20 minutes and the majority of them are physical so you can use it then.

It's still probably not worth a pick, though. I dunno, I might make it work.

[HiveStriker]

Most people who say 4-Elements is a bad archetype hssn't played it over 2-3 adventures. They never got the feel for the character, they just got a feel for their calculators. 4-elements is a nice class.

Stoneskin is a pretty garbage pick but if you're looking for any niche usefulness: it lasts longer. Since it lasts longer, it's more cost effective when roaming trap-filled dungeons. You'd probably encounter a trap every 10-20 minutes and the majority of them are physical so you can use it then.

It's still probably not worth a pick, though. I dunno, I might make it work.

Honestly, I tried to follow that logic too...
But even in my own experience which is apparently significantly different than people on these forums, it's rare that fights last more than 7 rounds.
And when they do, it means party is in an attrition fight, so often enough they'll try to get a short rest after anwyays.

More importantly, we are talking about level 17+ characters. So we can imo reasonably expect that each and every fighting encounter (and traps) sports a vast array of non-physical damage.
And because Stoneskin doesn't affect magical phyical damage, it basically means it affects only "basic (natural) weapon damage": threats against which you already have 0-Ki great options: 60+ base speed (few creatures can match it) to prevent melee reach, 19+ AC (depending on feat), and Deflect Arrows (works against only one attack, but just costs a reaction).

So yeah, even at that level you can probably find situations where it would be actually cost-efficient, but imo those would happen too scarcely to justify locking definitely in that spell (since you cannot change anymore).

That's really sadly a matter of cost/effectiveness, the one spell I feel they should have "recreated" as a "pure Monk" ability, possibly scaling with level...

Overall the only real gripe of 4e is the lack of flexibility on Discipline choice. Just allowing a more liberal swap (or learning more) would resolve all problems.
I also regret they didn't take the chance and make all "replicable spells" element-versatile (like Monk could choose element on cast like Nature Cleric on its bonus damage), or at the very least the Fangs ability (would have made it very thematic too), but hey...
Since we have official authorization as DM to override whatever we want, not that big of a deal. ^^

Arguably, your Monk movement boost should apply to Gaseous Form. And, funnily enough, it does not stop you from using Fist of Unbroken Air/Water Whip, since they don't involve an attack roll and they aren't spells.

I... FRIGGING NEVER MADE THAT CONNECTION IN MY BRAIN!!!
But you're right, it's legal by RAW (as would be Shape the Flowing River & Elemental Attunement now that I pay attention to it ^^)

OMG. A huge number of fun and nasty tricks to do opens in my mind.
We can be real nasty tricksters now. XD

I'm a big fan of Gaseous Form, especially when you're able to use it frequently (as would be the case here); it's a great infiltration and scouting spell that also renders doors and locks irrelevant to you. I suppose the other big consideration is that the party as a whole should probably have access to Fly anyway, whether from magic items or full-casters being able to cast it. This makes the utility aspect of Gaseous Form a little more relevant.

Also useful to escape or hide by using grounds faults or tree holes depending on your environment.
AND, pretty sure this is a houserule, but if your DM allows you to "stay" inside an object as long as it has enough volume for you to fit in, it opens some nice possibilities for spying too. :)

[Asisreo1]

Honestly, I tried to follow that logic too...
But even in my own experience which is apparently significantly different than people on these forums, it's rare that fights last more than 7 rounds.
And when they do, it means party is in an attrition fight, so often enough they'll try to get a short rest after anwyays.

More importantly, we are talking about level 17+ characters. So we can imo reasonably expect that each and every fighting encounter (and traps) sports a vast array of non-physical damage.
And because Stoneskin doesn't affect magical phyical damage, it basically means it affects only "basic (natural) weapon damage": threats against which you already have 0-Ki great options: 60+ base speed (few creatures can match it) to prevent melee reach, 19+ AC (depending on feat), and Deflect Arrows (works against only one attack, but just costs a reaction).

So yeah, even at that level you can probably find situations where it would be actually cost-efficient, but imo those would happen too scarcely to justify locking definitely in that spell (since you cannot change anymore).

That's really sadly a matter of cost/effectiveness, the one spell I feel they should have "recreated" as a "pure Monk" ability, possibly scaling with level...

Overall the only real gripe of 4e is the lack of flexibility on Discipline choice. Just allowing a more liberal swap (or learning more) would resolve all problems.
I also regret they didn't take the chance and make all "replicable spells" element-versatile (like Monk could choose element on cast like Nature Cleric on its bonus damage), or at the very least the Fangs ability (would have made it very thematic too), but hey...
Since we have official authorization as DM to override whatever we want, not that big of a deal. ^^

I'm not really talking combat, though. I'm talking traps where they're spaced minutes at a time. And if you had it activated and combat began, you don't need to use an action. And after combat, it's still up in case there's another trap or other that you might take.

It's important to remember not everything in D&D is combat.

[HiveStriker]

I'm not really talking combat, though. I'm talking traps where they're spaced minutes at a time. And if you had it activated and combat began, you don't need to use an action. And after combat, it's still up in case there's another trap or other that you might take.

It's important to remember not everything in D&D is combat.

I was including traps too, although I admit I was not clear on it. :)
Why would traps at that level be only physical damage?
Why would you be the one walking as a scout if you don't have a great Perception to anticipate those traps? And if you anticipate them, why wouldn't you either disarm them (if in party) or simply wall-run / jump around them?

Not trying to be picky here, just trying to understand: if you developed as a scout, I don't see why/how you woudln't get the means to disable at least regular traps.

Even an ancient dragon would get within 20ft. It's breath weapon is, by far, the greatest attack it has but it's a recharge skill. While it's up there, a warlock might be shooting EB's and the fighter might be landing their +3 bow attacks 4 times.

The dragon can't just wait, it needs to attack as much as possible. They'd want as many people dead as soon as possible so they'd swoop down and take out the spellcasters and ranged combatants. But if they swoop for you, or if you stay close to the spellcaster, you can intercept and knock it prone. The barbarian can try grappling and next turn you can go for the stunning strikes.

Other monks can't really do this. Even a Kensei monk only really gets to hit the dragon, they can't knock it prone as much. It's impressive enough they can cast and upcast fireball too. You get AoE from far away. 4-Element monks seem underwhelming on paper but nobody really takes the full scope of an adventure in those calculations. You can't really beat a trap with damage and your high AC isn't going to steer the boat. Likewise, a full adventure is going to have places where you can't solve everything with ranged attacks and high damage.

+100 Amen to that.

There is a vast number of tactics only a 4E Monk can pull (like Shadow Monk which also has a handful tactics no other Monk can use, although they could probably do something similar in the right circumstances).

Quick note about the aforementioned dragon example though: woudn't it also have enough pull strength to simply go pick some few dozen feet large rock and drop it on party (or use it as an "under" cover)?

Those creatures are supposedly intelligent after all in that mythology no?
(NOTE: true question, I rarely DMed Dragons and the few encounters I had dragons were behaving more as "lambda enemies" than crafty ancient creatures).

[Chronic]

https://www.reddit.com/r/dndnext/com..._remastered_a/

If you are free to use modified version of a class I suggest this. It's a good homebrew and it Feels good to play. Unlike many I find the base subclass OK, and fairly good if you use pré errata water whip, but the remastered version actually expend the powers you have access to and it's its great strength.

[Asisreo1]

I was including traps too, although I admit I was not clear on it. :)
Why would traps at that level be only physical damage?
Why would you be the one walking as a scout if you don't have a great Perception to anticipate those traps? And if you anticipate them, why wouldn't you either disarm them (if in party) or simply wall-run / jump around them?

Not trying to be picky here, just trying to understand: if you developed as a scout, I don't see why/how you woudln't get the means to disable at least regular traps.


+100 Amen to that.

There is a vast number of tactics only a 4E Monk can pull (like Shadow Monk which also has a handful tactics no other Monk can use, although they could probably do something similar in the right circumstances).

Quick note about the aforementioned dragon example though: woudn't it also have enough pull strength to simply go pick some few dozen feet large rock and drop it on party (or use it as an "under" cover)?

Those creatures are supposedly intelligent after all in that mythology no?
(NOTE: true question, I rarely DMed Dragons and the few encounters I had dragons were behaving more as "lambda enemies" than crafty ancient creatures).

It probably wouldn't be all that effective, otherwise it'd be listed as an action like the winged kobold's. It's possible, sure, but I don't think it would be better than doing the multiattack damage.

I'd say it'd be a dex save for dropping the boulder, though. Maybe strength so the barbarian can catch it (depending on the size.)

As for traps: they probably wouldn't all be physical. Then again, If I was designing a dungeon from a protection pov I'd have mundane traps on the perimeter and near the entrances while having the powerful magical traps closer to the heart. Why put in all the work to have every trap super unbeatable when you can make a couple near your room and everything else kills the stragglers.

That and some traps might not have been made by the magical BBEG. Even at level 17+, Kobolds and Goblins exist.

The discipline still sucks, though.

[Zuras]

Most people who say 4-Elements is a bad archetype hssn't played it over 2-3 adventures. They never got the feel for the character, they just got a feel for their calculators. 4-elements is a nice class.

Stoneskin is a pretty garbage pick but if you're looking for any niche usefulness: it lasts longer. Since it lasts longer, it's more cost effective when roaming trap-filled dungeons. You'd probably encounter a trap every 10-20 minutes and the majority of them are physical so you can use it then.

It's still probably not worth a pick, though. I dunno, I might make it work.

4 Elements is perfectly playable, but it really is just bad in comparison to all the other martial subclasses that get spells. The action economy of the abilities is terrible, and it depletes your ki too fast. In Tier 3 it finally gets going, but in the early levels it is much weaker than Open Hand or Shadow.

The worst aspect is that it doesn’t deliver the fantasy of chucking elemental effects around. You effectively get the casting of a half warlock, but unsurprisingly a half caster warlock is worse than a 1/3 caster Wizard if you don’t get a separate resource pool to power it, invocations, or an Eldritch Blast equivalent. The official subclass also misses out on all the elemental spells outside of the PHB, making it doubly annoying.

I have seen plenty of 4 Elements monks in action, and the vast majority of the time they definitely were better off using their ki for stunning strike or Fly over damage dealing. The class needs either a separate resource pool to power its features or more always-on or cantrip like features.

[Sparky McDibben]

Is stunning strike really all that good? Like, honestly? Most BBEG's are going to have some combination of Con save proficiency, Stun immunity, and Legendary Resistance to back them up. And you probably don't want to use your Stunning Strike on the mook. Stunning Strike falls off heavy later levels, too. Almost all creatures begin to get magical resistance and the aforementioned buffs.

Not on a mook, but if they have an in/succubus lieutenant? An oni? Anything tricksy and with a "bug-out" option is my go-to for Stunning Strike. For a big bruiser like a dragon I either try to block movement, or make it chase me. I like the grappler monk build, though. Another option is to use Martial Adept (Tripping or Goading Attack) to get the BBEG to focus on you rather than the glass cannons.

[Asisreo1]

4 Elements is perfectly playable, but it really is just bad in comparison to all the other martial subclasses that get spells. The action economy of the abilities is terrible, and it depletes your ki too fast. In Tier 3 it finally gets going, but in the early levels it is much weaker than Open Hand or Shadow.

The worst aspect is that it doesn’t deliver the fantasy of chucking elemental effects around. You effectively get the casting of a half warlock, but unsurprisingly a half caster warlock is worse than a 1/3 caster Wizard if you don’t get a separate resource pool to power it, invocations, or an Eldritch Blast equivalent. The official subclass also misses out on all the elemental spells outside of the PHB, making it doubly annoying.

I have seen plenty of 4 Elements monks in action, and the vast majority of the time they definitely were better off using their ki for stunning strike or Fly over damage dealing. The class needs either a separate resource pool to power its features or more always-on or cantrip like features.

The first issue is that you're comparing the 4-E monk to a warlock or fighter when they are a completely separate class. 4-E monks have passive defensive abilities no spellcaster has access to, like evasion and unarmored defense, which makes your monk's wisdom high wisdom more effective for both offense and defense. Isolating a subclass and comparing it to a class can make any class look stronger in comparison because that's not how that works.

[Asisreo1]

Not on a mook, but if they have an in/succubus lieutenant? An oni? Anything tricksy and with a "bug-out" option is my go-to for Stunning Strike. For a big bruiser like a dragon I either try to block movement, or make it chase me. I like the grappler monk build, though. Another option is to use Martial Adept (Tripping or Goading Attack) to get the BBEG to focus on you rather than the glass cannons.

All of those have a fly speed and are ineligible to be stunning striked until they engage in melee with the monk, which they probably won't. Even if they get close, they can take the OA and not risk flurry of blows.

An Oni, in particular, is proficient in Con saves but they also have a fly speed and 10ft melee reach. They have no incentive to get within 5ft of the monk and not fly away.

A succubus isn't going to get in melee of the monk. They're going to fly above the party's melee reach and charm a PC. They'll then pick up the PC and take them to a secure location where they kiss them. If the plan gets messed up, they'll swear their revenge and use etherealness to escape.

[ImproperJustice]

Really.
Been playing one in a side game for awhile.

They work just fine.
In some battles I act like a garden variety Monk, hit n’ run, flurry and stun.

In some, I am water whipping people to the ground for beatdowns or over pits.

In others a spam a pair of fireballs to obliterate an entire encounter worth of minions. Then short rest and do it again.

Or I take to the air, completely invulnerable to enemy strikes from the ground, while water whipping people to their doom, striking from range.

And lord help any squishy casters. They can’t escape me. On the ground, in the air, i will find them, I will stun them, and I will whoop’em good.

[Zuras]

The first issue is that you're comparing the 4-E monk to a warlock or fighter when they are a completely separate class. 4-E monks have passive defensive abilities no spellcaster has access to, like evasion and unarmored defense, which makes your monk's wisdom high wisdom more effective for both offense and defense. Isolating a subclass and comparing it to a class can make any class look stronger in comparison because that's not how that works.

Sure, It may not necessarily be fair to compare subclasses across different classes, but neither Monk, Fighter nor Rogue have heavily weighted subclasses (compared to the Ranger, for example) so I think comparisons in this case are apt. Is it unfair to compare an Eldritch Knight to an Arcane Trickster? All of the other subclasses that get spellcasting tacked on to a martial chassis get additional features to make them more effective, like War Magic and Magical Ambush. Otherwise, casting a 3rd level spell at 13th level (or even 11th) is underwhelming.

Eldritch Knights and Arcane Tricksters access spells that improve their core competencies and shore up their weaknesses right away. Shield allows the EK to momentarily break Bounded Accuracy with their AC, while Absorb Element shores up a STR fighter’s bad DEX saves against numerous AoEs. ATs get tremendous improvements in their stealth and infiltration roles from Mage Hand and Minor Illusion.

Until the 4 Elements Monk accesses Fly and Gaseous Form at 11th level, features improving core Monk competencies like mobility and soft control are thin on the ground. Your soft control options (Gust of Wind, Fist of Unbroken Air, Hold Person, Water Whip) are all weaker uses for your action than simply attacking and using stunning strike, since they don’t allow you to follow up with a bonus action martial arts attack and rely on a secondary stat for their save DC.

If you had access to both Open Hand Technique and your elemental disciplines, how often would you use Fist of Unbroken Air versus an entire routine of 4 attacks (Extra Attack + Flurry of Blows)? In a dire situation, an Open Hand attack routine can end up forcing 4 saves against stun and two against proning. If you use an elemental discipline, on the other hand, if your opponent makes the save, that’s your whole offensive output for that turn. Emotionally, it just feels bad when that happens. You also don’t have enough disciplines known to have real utility, you just have to hope you luck into a situation where your picks are useful. It’s noticeably weaker than Open Hand or Shadow, and puts you in position to attempt to do something cool but fail more often than any other subclass I’ve seen in play.

[JellyPooga]

Eldritch Knights and Arcane Tricksters access spells that improve their core competencies and shore up their weaknesses right away.

Arguably, the core weakness of Monk is lack of AoE and lack of Ranged capability. 4E shores up this weakness. Neither PHB Way does.

If you had access to both Open Hand Technique and your elemental disciplines, how often would you use Fist of Unbroken Air versus an entire routine of 4 attacks (Extra Attack + Flurry of Blows)?

I guess you'd use them any time you weren't able to engage in melee or any time you didn't quite have the speed/mobility to engage the foe you wanted to. In this regard, 4E gives immediate access to an extension of an already enhanced mobility; a "core competency", if you will.

Yes, Flurry+Stun paired with Open Hand may be a more efficient/better option when available, but it won't always be an option. 4E gives a greater versatility and while it doesn't stack with the core function, it does compensate a weakness (range) and enhance a strength (mobility). 4E also provides a defence against foes that have speed and/or reach on the Monk; a Readied Action from a 4E Monk will produce results in a way that no Open Hand or Shadow Monk will.

Add to that, every 4E damage option offers half damage even if the opponent Saves. Not a huge selling point, but worth considering nonetheless when calculating the Ki cost. Even a creature with Legendary Saves will be taking damage from a 4E Monk utilising a Discipline. The same cannot be said for (correct me if I'm wrong) any other Way.