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Thread: 4-elements Monk
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2020-05-26, 09:37 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: 4-elements Monk
That is how they play though, so ‘partial caster’ is a potentially valid description by which others may use the synonymous ‘one-third caster’ even if the actual spellcasting ability is not present or identical.
If warlocks didnt have pact magic, only cantrips and invocations could they still be considered spellcasters? I would argue yes.
But throwing out the caster idea there are still no choices available to a 4E monk that doesnt demand Ki expenditure, which is a problem.
And anecdotally still a very restrictive number of disciplines available to you at any given time.Last edited by Kane0; 2020-05-26 at 09:43 AM.
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2020-05-26, 10:34 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: 4-elements Monk
Well, in technicality warlocks are not spellcasters, they're pact magic casters. They also share similarities but I'll leave that aside as well.
How is that a problem? Any spell that doesn't require Ki expenditure becomes 2 things, a default or useless. If you could cast burning hands rather than attack, why would you ever attack? You can't factor flurry because that costs precious Ki. Essentially, you're a better spellcaster because you get to do these things for free. Or, you get something that's cantrip level like firebolt which is a worse option than using your darts because there's no dex mod added and it uses your secondary ability instead of your primary one. When you get to 5th level, you're doing 2d10 which is okay? But you could be doing 2d6 + dex*2 so it's still a poor option.
You could give them something unique but not too strong. Something that gives good flavor. But we already have elemental attunement. Once anything becomes better than your default action of attack twice with martial arts, it should expend ki points.Last edited by Asisreo1; 2020-05-26 at 10:34 AM.
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2020-05-26, 10:38 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: 4-elements Monk
They get a discount on 3rd-5th level spells too, so the comparison looks even better if you look at Fireballs.
It's a solvable problem though. There are a bunch of fun monk abilities that don't require ki, and you can invest in a feat to give you even more, and even if you burn half your ki on Patient Defense/Stunning Strikes you still have more and better blasting than the equivalent Eldritch Knight (mostly because 1/3 casters stink at blasting--a bladelock still blows you out of the water at spellcasting, but you're better at fighting).Last edited by MaxWilson; 2020-05-26 at 10:44 AM.
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2020-05-26, 10:39 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: 4-elements Monk
I mean, it's because you have a few spell slots, and you need to expend a spell slot to cast Burning Hands.
Spell slots aren't ki, but they are also a limited resource.
This is similar to how an Eldritch Knight subclass Fighter would have the Fighter resources (e.g. action surge) separate from the subclass resource (spell slots).I want you to PEACH me as hard as you can.
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2020-05-26, 10:46 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: 4-elements Monk
Last edited by HPisBS; 2020-05-26 at 10:49 AM.
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2020-05-26, 11:07 AM (ISO 8601)
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2020-05-26, 11:10 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: 4-elements Monk
You're talking about spell slots, which we've stated means you do 4-element stuff even less often. If Ki cost is too expensive, spell slots will only make that bigger.
It solves nothing about these common "complaints." It would still require an action to set off and it is still so expensive you will run out of your elemonk stuff as if you've never had it. It just amplifies these problems dramatically.
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2020-05-26, 11:16 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: 4-elements Monk
I want you to PEACH me as hard as you can.
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2020-05-26, 11:23 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2014
Re: 4-elements Monk
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2020-05-26, 11:28 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: 4-elements Monk
Sure, but the comparison isn't strictly limited to Fireball output.
The choice is 6 fireballs but no Monk actions vs. 3 shatters and a whole lot of Monk actions.
People who enjoy playing Monks in order to enjoy the sorts of Monk actions which cost ki points might prefer the latter.
Plus, of course, limiting spells to spell-slot expenditures doesn't limit elemental effects to spell-slot expenditures. There's room for Ki elemental effects which aren't spells.I want you to PEACH me as hard as you can.
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2020-05-26, 11:32 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: 4-elements Monk
That's incorrect because you still get monk actions. You're just trading them for bigger and more diverse output options. You're still a competent monk without your ki points, which is what we're trying to get at. 3 attacks in a round at d8 is still a good amount of damage and you still benefit from things like your evasion and the multitude of passives.
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2020-05-26, 11:36 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: 4-elements Monk
I think you mean 6 Fireballs and a bunch of free monk actions (Missile Catch, Slow Fall, Evasion on your own Fireballs, Martial Arts etc.) but no ki monk actions. Or you can have 3-4 Fireballs and a lot of free monk actions and a lot of ki monk actions like Stunning Strike/Patient Defense. No changes to the class required.
Elemonk has some problems, especially before Fireball comes online, and also problems related to how boring it is to have nothing but blasting. But nerfing the best part of the class (plentiful Fireballs after level 11) is not the way to go.Last edited by MaxWilson; 2020-05-26 at 11:38 AM.
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2020-05-26, 11:39 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: 4-elements Monk
It looks like you're trying to claim that spending all your ki points on a single spell is somehow "more diverse output options".
A major problem with the 4E Monk is that it does not have "more diverse output options" -- if you pick a spell as your class feature, all you get is that one spell, and your options are to either be a spellcaster with fewer options, or to be a Monk and neglect the subclass feature.
It's true that a Monk with no subclass and no Ki is playable -- but that's a rather low bar you've set for the 4E Monk to reach.I want you to PEACH me as hard as you can.
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2020-05-26, 11:53 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: 4-elements Monk
But your suggestion would leave the monk even more like a monk with no subclass, just with Ki.
And can we just mention "all your Ki" is just a dishonest argument. You never have the chance to spend all your Ki on a single spell, only on a feature that you decide to upcast. You spend a good amount during a particularly challenging fight, but you still have some Ki just in case. And it recovers on a short rest, something you can benefit from any time of the day as many times as possible where recovering on a long rest requires you to wait 24 hours.
People forget exactly how on-demand short rests are. It's only an hour in-game and should only take 5 minutes top out-of-game. It's nothing to concern yourself with as a DM because they'd usually have to recover HP with hit dice or their abilities aren't too dramatic when they get them back.
We could fit 4 or 5 short rests in an adventuring day.
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2020-05-26, 11:55 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: 4-elements Monk
I want you to PEACH me as hard as you can.
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2020-05-26, 12:23 PM (ISO 8601)
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2020-05-26, 12:38 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: 4-elements Monk
I think the 4E Monk isn't great as-is.
I think it's a flaw that playing it like a one-spell Wizard is "more optimal" than playing it like a Monk, and I don't see value in preserving the one-spell Wizard "feature".
I think that the 4E Monk in play feels like it has fewer options than any other Monk subtype.
I think "third" casters like Arcane Trickster and Eldritch Knight feel like they have more options.
I think spell slots could help the 4E Monk.
But that's not a design as such, it's just a direction.I want you to PEACH me as hard as you can.
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2020-05-26, 12:59 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2014
Re: 4-elements Monk
I agree with this part, but...
I don't see how this part follows.
This is more about disciplines known (and the number of disciplines available) than it is about ki vs. spell slots.
For those who find Elemonk unsatisfying, I'd look harder at inventing new disciplines (e.g. spells from Xanathar's, or weak no-ki-cost disciplines a la Thunder Fists) and/or letting them change disciplines by spending a long rest exposed to the element whose disciplines they want to adopt, instead of switching to spell slots.
P.S. Elemonk today feels a little bit like an Eldritch Knight would feel if it were a half-caster but could ONLY select evocation spells, no abjuration spells or free picks allowed.Last edited by MaxWilson; 2020-05-26 at 01:15 PM.
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2020-05-26, 01:05 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: 4-elements Monk
You value options, that's okay but it doesn't define whether or not a class or subclass is good. Remember that some people have completely different opinions and they appreciate more simplicity in their classes.
Understand those individual are probably not in an out-of-the-way site like this speak their opinions often, either. They'd just silently enjoy their subclass.
And I think it's important to identify whether you're a vocal part of the minority or a common voice in the majority. The majority of players probably aren't in these types of players.
But to say the subclass is weak is overexaggerating the class's cons, which all classes have anyways. No class is perfect and some fit specific playstyles. If you want options, you're good to be a wizard or druid with tavern brawler or a dip in monk. If you want simplicity, you can be a champion fighter with magic initiate. If you want a gradient of both, you can choose from the options in between. But not all classes should have the complexity and options as a wizard, and that's where these conversations generally lead in these types of forums.
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2020-05-26, 01:24 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: 4-elements Monk
I concur. Giving them a roughly cantrip-level ability or two they can use without ki would go a long way.
Maybe let them learn a literal elemental cantrip like Create Bonfire whenever they get a discipline. Or maybe a Lightning Fist bonus action could basically add Shocking Grasp to unarmed attacks until one hits. Or maybe Sand Thrust could let you forgo any one attack to try to blind an enemy for 1 round upon a failed Dex or Con save.
All of these would be flavorful, all would be useful, and none would become the "new default" as far as obviously optimal tactics go - even compared to base monk options.
This kind of design really shouldn't be that hard to do, nor to get roughly right.
Edit:
Why?
What's the difference, and why focus on only one? There's no reason an elemonk shouldn't have cool, useful, elemental things to do with his bonus action the same way that a shadowmonk has cool, useful, shadowy things to do with his. Moreover, a cool, useful, elemental thing to do without spending ki.Last edited by HPisBS; 2020-05-26 at 01:43 PM.
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2020-05-26, 01:48 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: 4-elements Monk
I wonder if the original 5E writers expected people to get more use out of Elemental Attunement than I've seen them get. Did they expect you to e.g. create flaming swords out of fire and then pick them up (without getting burned) and fight with them? Create lightning zaps (for zero damage) to intimidate bad guys?
Or did they expect it to be exactly as boring and weak as it seems prima facie?
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2020-05-26, 02:09 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: 4-elements Monk
Players characters have a practical limit on their number of actions anyway. Within that limit, Open Hand has no extra expenses for Ki and people think it does fine. If Elemental spells only get used when they're worth the action cost, and those actions don't cost Ki, then there is going to be more Ki left to spend during normal monk actions. More likely stunning strikes on every hit. Actions that don't cost Ki have to balance with other free actions. Spending ki allows permission for stronger actions with that cost of ki. 4 elements monk is going to feel better with more free/unlimited abilities like the shadow and long death monk than they will with free/limited abilities like open hand.
It can just be something that doesn't involve damage, so it's situational, or else something that fits between the damage a normal monk has for free and what can be done with Ki. Basically, alternate costs and small boosts to normal activities. Examples are using unarmed damage when weapon damage is higher, or attaching bonuses to nondamaging activities like maneuvering around the battlefield.
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2020-05-26, 02:29 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: 4-elements Monk
Elemental Attunement is literally cantrip level where you can manipulate the 4 elements as you wish. I literally still do not see the difference in what you're talking about. It costs no Ki, you can do whatever with mist, water, fire, and earth.
Why would I use shocking grasp? My unarmed strikes are stronger than them. You can already light campfires. If you want some d10 damage, throw burning coals at your enemy. Improvise, do something cool instead of pretending EA doesn't exist.
You can do that as a elemonk already. Nothing says you can't use your action to manipulate sand and throw it at something's face. Although blinding someone, even for a round, is certainly stronger than cantrip level.
If it's cantrip level and it's not a default, it'll rarely ever be used. The only time something like that would be truly useful would be in niche cases and it'll feel like a waste of a discipline anyways. The only time a cantrip level ability will be extremely useful for a monk would be out of combat and Elemental Attunement is the strongest cantrip level effect in the game because it doesn't need to be harmless.
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2020-05-26, 02:40 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: 4-elements Monk
Would you mind clarifying your meaning? My PHB says any sensory effect from EA is "harmless", just like Prestidigitation, and the warming/shaping/etc. functions are not easily weaponized AFAICT. Fire Bolt is clearly better at being non-harmless than EA.
What am I missing here?
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2020-05-26, 03:00 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: 4-elements Monk
Nonsense.
Just how much latitude should we really expect when using that? RAW lets us "Create a harmless, instantaneous sensory effect" or cause an element "that can fit within a 1-foot cube to shape itself into a crude form." It's basically the elemonk's Prestidigitation; there's nothing in it to suggest it can actually be used to attack. Even just shaping some earth into a club to attack with would be a stretch.
To deal some resource-free lightning damage? To shut down the enemy's reactions - thus guaranteeing you and/or a squishy caster can safely get some distance (even against something with Sentinel)?
If the actual cantrip, then maybe for advantage against someone in armor?
If the psuedo-cantrip I wrote, then, no, using it would be roughly on par with a normal unarmed strike, since it'd only cost a bonus action to then buff the next unarmed attack that hits. Kinda like a very weak smite spell.
Again, Elemental Attunement clearly specifies harmless, or a little bit of shaping. There's nothing to even imply we get to throw any coals or even dust around in a combative way with it.
... Maybe you'd confused a house rule for RAW?Last edited by HPisBS; 2020-05-26 at 03:38 PM.
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2020-05-26, 03:04 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: 4-elements Monk
Elemental spells strictly as actions is actually part of the problem.
Giving spell slots allows the inclusion of effects like Absorb Elements (from the EEPC), which is a Reaction, and the benefit of which a Monk would be uniquely well-suited to capitalize upon.
But there might need to be a limit on how often the Monk can capitalize upon Absorb Elements, and oh hey spell slots provide a handy resource limit.
You're not missing anything.
There is no hidden PocketSand™ option in Elemental Attunement.I want you to PEACH me as hard as you can.
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2020-05-26, 03:48 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: 4-elements Monk
How complex is throwing coal or sand? It's an improvised weapon at worst. If you haven't noticed, it's not a spell. While SA says spells only do what they say they do, they make no mention of these other magical attacks.
That's admittedly a weak argument, though.
What needs to be addressed is that EA fulfills every bit of reasonable actions from a cantrip-like ability for a martial without being too unreasonable. An elemonk is a monk first and foremost. There's nothing saying the shape cannot do damage. There's nothing saying the shape [B]cannot[B] trap. You can make manacles out of them, a dagger, a container. You can increase the lights in an area of darkness without having to get close to a torch, to relight it.
There's no limits to how warm or cool you can make the pound of matter. Even if you keep the bounds as "below boiling" and "above freezing," you can still chill lava to walk across or warm ice to turn to water. No Ki point required.
It's very flavorful and, while it's combat uses may be limited, at least you have some cool things to do out of combat. All anyone's really thinking about here is combat. I get it, it's a combat game. But if it was meant for nothing more than combat, spells like prestidigitiation wouldn't be so highly regarded.
If you're using your bonus action for shocking grasp, that's essentially trading the bonus action you'd get for an unarmed strike, which would be stronger. If it gets rid of reactions, it would be better than using step of the wind, even if it is for next turn. If it does stack over an unarmed strike, it would probably be a default since a monk could really just keep doing that and moving out of range with their unarmored movement. Just keep spamming Thunder Grasp and unarmed strikes and moving in-and-out.
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2020-05-26, 04:13 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: 4-elements Monk
"Harmless"
I'll grant a maybe on that. Maybe "earth" can mean stone as well as just dirt (though Mold Earth heavily implies otherwise). Maybe you can solidify / condense soil when you shape it such it won't break apart when you hit something with it or when a fighter tries to force his hands apart. Maybe.
Can you, though? I'd say you transition from making it "warm" or "cool" into "hot" or "cold" well before reaching those temps.
This following part may not be RAW, but at least to me, it seems pretty clearly RAI that "warm or cool" is meant in a relative capacity. So, I'd say no instantly solidifying lava. Nor would I allow any kind of stacking loophole to get around it. But again, this may be the most ambiguous part of the ability.
That, like Shadow Step, would depend on the situation. If you've only got a single enemy in front of you, then yes, it'd be better than disengaging. But whenever there's multiple enemies next to you, shocking one would still leave the others free to AoO you.
As for damage, that could be tuned such that it is just slightly less than a normal unarmed strike (maybe 1 martial arts' die, rather than 1d_+Wis mod or whatever, or maybe even a static 1d6+Wis mod rather than let it scale with your martial arts), to balance out the rider effect.Last edited by HPisBS; 2020-05-26 at 04:18 PM.
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2020-05-26, 04:13 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: 4-elements Monk
Monks have valuable actions, bonus actions, and even reactions already. Why Absorb Elements (the exact spell) instead of Deflect Missiles (something in that style). Maybe when you successfully evasion, you can spend Ki as a reaction to divert the effect/saving throw onto a nearby enemy. You could look at agile parry, where you act a certain way to gain a temporary benefit. If effects were added to the Dodge, Dash, Disengage, and/or unarmed strike with your attack action, they could easily fit in the gap of free abilities still below flurry or stunning strike in power. I'm picturing an earth Dodge that reduces the damage you take, an air Dash
that is somehow distinct from step of the windwhere you can push other creatures, a water Disengage that covers your retreat with difficult terrain, and fire strikes that are just a rebalanced fangs of the fire snake, sorry.
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2020-05-26, 04:30 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: 4-elements Monk
There's absolutely nothing stopping you from flavoring regular monk stuff as elemental effects.
You can create ice as you walk on water. You can cause a wind that causes a slight hover that does 3 times your jump speed. Your unarmed strikes can be close-range rock attacks. You can make your stunning strikes have electricity come out of it or freeze the target with each punch.
If flavoring is your only problem, understand you can flavor as you wish and keep mechanics consistent
But I believe your combat should be primarily monk, not primarily spellcasting. You shouldn't be able to lean into spellcasting, otherwise you're not a monk, you're a spellcaster.