4-elements Monk

[HPisBS]

Monks have valuable actions, bonus actions, and even reactions already. Why Absorb Elements (the exact spell) instead of Deflect Missiles (something in that style). Maybe when you successfully evasion, you can spend Ki as a reaction to divert the effect/saving throw onto a nearby enemy. You could look at agile parry, where you act a certain way to gain a temporary benefit. If effects were added to the Dodge, Dash, Disengage, and/or unarmed strike with your attack action, they could easily fit in the gap of free abilities still below flurry or stunning strike in power. I'm picturing an earth Dodge that reduces the damage you take, an air Dash that is somehow distinct from step of the wind where you can push other creatures, a water Disengage that covers your retreat with difficult terrain, and fire strikes that are just a rebalanced fangs of the fire snake, sorry.

I like it.

Spending a ki pt to deflect whatever elemental damage / effects you're avoiding onto a nearby enemy strongly brings fire-bending to mind.

It'd be really cool to get those elemental action-enhancements whenever you gain a discipline of the associated element. Learn Water Whip or Shape the Flowing River, and also gain a Disengage enhancement. It's pretty easy to see how, for instance, making some mist heavily obscure your space could help you safely disengage.

If flavoring is your only problem, understand you can flavor as you wish and keep mechanics consistent

But I believe your combat should be primarily monk, not primarily spellcasting. You shouldn't be able to lean into spellcasting, otherwise you're not a monk, you're a spellcaster.

Ahhhhh, so that's the disconnect.

Yeah, no, it's not just about the flavor. The problem people have with it is strictly - or at least primarily - that it doesn't feel as useful as other monk subclasses. Lacking a useful ki-free subclass ability is part of it. Another is that the abilities it does allow feel either too expensive, underwhelming, or both.

[Asisreo1]

I like it.

Spending a ki pt to deflect whatever elemental damage / effects you're avoiding onto a nearby enemy strongly brings fire-bending to mind.

It'd be really cool to get those elemental action-enhancements whenever you gain a discipline of the associated element. Learn Water Whip or Shape the Flowing River, and also gain a Disengage enhancement. It's pretty easy to see how, for instance, making some mist heavily obscure your space could help you safely disengage.




Ahhhhh, so that's the disconnect.

Yeah, no, it's not just about the flavor. The problem people have with it is strictly - or at least primarily - that it doesn't feel as useful as other monk subclasses. Lacking a useful ki-free subclass ability is part of it. Another is that the abilities it does allow feel either too expensive, underwhelming, or both.

It feels useful to me, and it felt useful for the majority of people I've played with. It didn't feel underwhelming or too expensive but maybe my playstyle is different than yours.

I'm not saying these homebrew suggestions won't make it feel better for you but I do think you're completely changing the design intent. These aren't problems, they just don't feel as good.

If I wanted to be a sword wizard, for instance, non of the subclasses would be appropriate for it. Some people direct me to abjuration because of the defensive abilities but I want a true martial/wizard subclass. They direct me to the bard or the warlock or eldritch knight but I refuse because I want to be a wizard. I want a full wizard subclass with proficiency with medium/heavy armor and martial weapons and I want to have it as a subclass feature and not as a feat or multiclass, like how a warcleric gets extra proficiencies.

But hopefully people can see how that conflicts with the actual design intent of the wizard and it might be broken, quite frankly. I can make a homebrew to what I want and I can maybe even have it balanced, but suggesting replacing something like abjuration ward with heavy armor proficiency and martial weapons doesn't fix a subclass, it changes it completely.

Hopefully I'm getting across that the point is I don't think the elemonk needs any sort of fix and any that gets placed on it could either be applied with good flavoring or changes the entire dynamic of the class in a direction that WoTC did not intend for it to go.

Yes, I think there decisions were well thought-out, playtested, and researched. Seeing people undermine their vision and replace it with another one as if these forum posters are somehow more competent than the people who probably play D&D as a research assignment and challenge playtested material with the first thought from the back of their mind. I'm not speaking of anyone in particular in this thread, but I've seen this stuff from multiple websites discussing the subject.

I have no doubt WoTC already thought of giving cantrips or making them a third-caster or having these unique things. I believe Elemental Attunement and flavoring was their solution to problems yet unforseen by us.

In conclusion, I understand that the elemonk might not do everything a specific player might want, but that doesn't mean they need a fix. Most things you want can be applied in the game but just like a sword wizard, it may require multiclassing, feat management, or a whole different class.

That's okay.

[Kane0]

-Snip-

So we’re on entirely different wavelengths. Not to worry, i’ll head back to the homebrew forum to continue my thoughts.

Edit: and agreed on deflect arrows working with incoming elemental attacks, that was actually one of my first ideas too.

[Nifft]

Monks have valuable actions, bonus actions, and even reactions already. Why Absorb Elements (the exact spell) instead of Deflect Missiles (something in that style).

Because it's not the Four Arrows Monk, it's the Four Elements Monk.

That said, your idea is not bad as an additional spell which could be prepared, but they really do want access to Absorb Elements -- that spell is more relevant and appropriate to the 4EM subclass than any other PHB class or subclass.

I like it.

Spending a ki pt to deflect whatever elemental damage / effects you're avoiding onto a nearby enemy strongly brings fire-bending to mind.

It'd be really cool to get those elemental action-enhancements whenever you gain a discipline of the associated element. Learn Water Whip or Shape the Flowing River, and also gain a Disengage enhancement. It's pretty easy to see how, for instance, making some mist heavily obscure your space could help you safely disengage.

I did a think like that with 4 Stances, each giving some kind of minor bonus and access to a Cantrip-like effect.

Yeah, no, it's not just about the flavor. The problem people have with it is strictly - or at least primarily - that it doesn't feel as useful as other monk subclasses. Lacking a useful ki-free subclass ability is part of it. Another is that the abilities it does allow feel either too expensive, underwhelming, or both.

Agreed.

I think my issue is that my table saw a Shadow Monk played first.

In contrast to how much good stuff the Shadow Monk got, the 4E Monk's player felt like the subclass was limited, underpowered, overpriced, and disconnected from its theme. The 4EM player wanted to be a bender, not a short-rest one-spell Wizard. Doesn't matter how good that one spell was, the player wasn't at the table to cast one big spell and be done.

It was frustrating to see someone so frustrated with the class, and as a DM there wasn't much I could do to help.

[Kane0]

Taking feedback.

https://forums.giantitp.com/showthre...k-(take-three)

[Asisreo1]

Taking feedback.

https://forums.giantitp.com/showthre...k-(take-three)

It's a good homebrew. Very reminiscent of the Mystic disciplines, as I see you drew inspiration from it. I'm not sure "acid" and "lightning" is much of the four-elements. Chromatic orb in particular may be the most elementally versatile spell.

The cantrips will probably be overlooked except for a few flavor ones as they aren't quite as effective as your unarmed strikes or darts.

If casting gets spammed, it'll be a problem since now your monk is heavily considering just being a backliner. Then they'll truly be a subpar spellcaster.

[MaxWilson]

I think my issue is that my table saw a Shadow Monk played first.

In contrast to how much good stuff the Shadow Monk got, the 4E Monk's player felt like the subclass was limited, underpowered, overpriced, and disconnected from its theme. The 4EM player wanted to be a bender, not a short-rest one-spell Wizard. Doesn't matter how good that one spell was, the player wasn't at the table to cast one big spell and be done.

It was frustrating to see someone so frustrated with the class, and as a DM there wasn't much I could do to help.

This sounds like exactly the sort of player who would benefit from the refluffing Asisreo suggested. Stunning Strike = lightning taser, Step of the Wind = icy winds blow you faster (it's right there in the name!), water walk = tiny icy crystals form around you, etc.

Taking feedback.

https://forums.giantitp.com/showthre...k-(take-three)

My initial reaction: interesting idea, I like the paths thing, but getting a bunch of disciplines (each with four spells) AND a bunch of new at-will features seems way overtuned relative to other monks.

Look at Open Hand for comparison.

I suppose a counterargument here could be that it's not overtuned relative to Eldritch Knight (bunch of at-will features AND spellcasting at every level bump), but I'd counter-counter with the fact that Eldritch Knights aren't monks, and that a monk subclass's opportunity cost is other monk subclasses, not a fighter subclass.

If you adopted these rules I think you'd have to revamp all the monk subclasses in response, which is how power creep happens.

[Nifft]

This sounds like exactly the sort of player who would benefit from the refluffing Asisreo suggested. Stunning Strike = lightning taser, Step of the Wind = icy winds blow you faster (it's right there in the name!), water walk = tiny icy crystals form around you, etc.

Nah, the thing is we'd already seen the baseline Monk abilities, thanks to the Shadow Monk.

The player was smacked in the face with the reality that she couldn't do anything special.

Refluffing might have worked if the 4EM had been the first Monk at the table. Too bad.

[Asisreo1]

Nah, the thing is we'd already seen the baseline Monk abilities, thanks to the Shadow Monk.

The player was smacked in the face with the reality that she couldn't do anything special.

Refluffing might have worked if the 4EM had been the first Monk at the table. Too bad.

I think the real problem might've been that they played a monk to begin with. With a shadow monk that knew how to work with their subclass no less. If I played a sorcerer for the first time and nobody really knew how to be effective with them and I compared myself to wizard, I'd probably feel bad too.

It's just that she wasn't expecting to be a monk first-and-foremost. She was expecting to be a wizard.

[HPisBS]

I think the real problem might've been that they played a monk to begin with. With a shadow monk that knew how to work with their subclass no less. If I played a sorcerer for the first time and nobody really knew how to be effective with them and I compared myself to wizard, I'd probably feel bad too.

It's just that she wasn't expecting to be a monk first-and-foremost. She was expecting to be a wizard.

I'm pretty sure this was covered already.

...The 4EM player wanted to be a bender, not a short-rest one-spell Wizard.

They wanted to be a bender, meaning a monk with bending. They wanted to play like Aang.

The RAW 4 elements monk flat out fails to let you realize that fantasy, despite the name.


edit:
... Have you never seen Avatar: The Last Airbender?

[Nifft]

It's just that she wasn't expecting to be a monk first-and-foremost. She was expecting to be a wizard.

Absolutely wrong.

They wanted to be a bender, meaning a monk with bending. They wanted to play like Aang.

The RAW 4 elements monk flat out doesn't let you realize that fantasy, despite the name.

Yeah, and as far as I can tell that's a significant source of disappointment for this subclass.

There is merit in the idea that 4EM can be mechanically strong if you play to its, but it's still a problem if those strengths aren't what the name & flavor text imply. And in my experience, it's very much not.

[Asisreo1]

edit:
... Have you never seen Avatar: The Last Airbender?

Have I seen it? I love it. It's my favorite cartoon, period.

That said, despite the name I never really saw it as a bender from avatar. Okay, I saw it like that from only the name but as I read through the subclass and read through Druid. I felt druids were actually just closer. They have the cantrip-level elemental spells with the spell slots to fuel continuous casting.

And Avatar is really continuous casting with a rare punch or kick being used. Heck, even earth benders hardly get within 20 feet of each other in the show.

I recently watched the zuko and katara vs azula fight on netflix and I don't remember even a single fist being thrown.

That's what I mean when I say they don't want to be a monk, they want to be a spellcaster.

[HPisBS]

It sounds like you've been getting distracted by all the cool fire blasts and flying rocks and everything. They bend through their martial arts. Behind (almost) every elemental effect is a martial cause.

Watch the characters, their bodies as they bend, and you'll see. Behind waterbending is tai chi. Behind earthbending is hung gar. Behind firebending is northern shaolin style. Behind airbending is bagua. In Avatar, the bending is just an extension of the martial art.


That's why, to play as a DnD "bender," people want an elemental monk to work.

[Asisreo1]

It sounds like you've been getting distracted by all the cool fire blasts and flying rocks and everything. They bend through their martial arts. Behind (almost) every elemental effect is a martial cause.

Watch the characters, their bodies as they bend, and you'll see. Behind waterbending is tai chi. Behind earthbending is hung gar. Behind firebending is northern shaolin style. Behind airbending is bagua. In Avatar, the bending is just an extension of the martial art.


That's why, to play as a DnD "bender," people want an elemental monk to work.

Those are just somatic components.

[HPisBS]

lollololololololol

[LudicSavant]

Big fan of Avatar: The Last Airbender here!

IMHO if you want to capture the fantasy of being an Avatar-style bender, you need to have a character that's using the elements (or one element) basically all the time, and doing some pretty powerful magic effects while they're at it. It's fairly rare for a bender to actually throw a punch.

[Kane0]

It's a good homebrew. Very reminiscent of the Mystic disciplines, as I see you drew inspiration from it. I'm not sure "acid" and "lightning" is much of the four-elements. Chromatic orb in particular may be the most elementally versatile spell.

The cantrips will probably be overlooked except for a few flavor ones as they aren't quite as effective as your unarmed strikes or darts.

If casting gets spammed, it'll be a problem since now your monk is heavily considering just being a backliner. Then they'll truly be a subpar spellcaster.

My initial reaction: interesting idea, I like the paths thing, but getting a bunch of disciplines (each with four spells) AND a bunch of new at-will features seems way overtuned relative to other monks.

Look at Open Hand for comparison.

I suppose a counterargument here could be that it's not overtuned relative to Eldritch Knight (bunch of at-will features AND spellcasting at every level bump), but I'd counter-counter with the fact that Eldritch Knights aren't monks, and that a monk subclass's opportunity cost is other monk subclasses, not a fighter subclass.

If you adopted these rules I think you'd have to revamp all the monk subclasses in response, which is how power creep happens.

Noted and will address in the other thread.

[JellyPooga]

Big fan of Avatar: The Last Airbender here!

IMHO if you want to capture the fantasy of being an Avatar-style bender, you need to have a character that's using the elements (or one element) basically all the time, and doing some pretty powerful magic effects while they're at it. It's fairly rare for a bender to actually throw a punch.

The mistake, I think, is that players automatically go to the Monk Class whenever they want to recreate a character with any "eastern" theme. Kung Fu genius? Monk. Ninja? Monk. Samurai? Monk. A:tLA Bender? Monk. Sure, some of it fits, especially those that actually want to emphasise using martial arts as a combat form, but in a lot of cases, the mechanics of the Monk simply don't match the abilities of the character you want. Nor is the Monk restricted to these kind of "eastern" themes either, any more than all Rogues have to be criminals or all Wizards have to wear pointy hats. Hell, the entire point of this thread was to help me build a warrior based on Irish mythology.

An A:tLA Bender might look like a 4E Monk on the surface, with all the so-called eastern flavour and themes, but the reality of it is really quite different. Ang, The Avatar, is unique for being able to bend all the elements, yet that's the most basic, first and only mandatory Discipline of the 4E Monk. The disconnect starts even before that though, at the outset. I don't recall Kattara or Toph learning how to punch someones lungs out before they could even start learning Water or Earth Bending. If you're looking for a Master Bender as the goal, then Monk, as a core package (4E or not), simply doesn't fit.

It'd be like saying "I want to play a Knight in Shining Armour" and complaining that the Rogue Class just isn't fulfilling the character you had in mind. Of course it doesn't, because no matter what Rogue subclass you choose or homebrew, the basics don't fit. Sure, you could build a Knight character as a Rogue, but it'll be the optional features (higher Str than perhaps is normal for a Rogue, Feats, etc.) you select that make it so and by no means will it necessarily be all that optimal or fulfil the fantasy you want compared to, say, Fighter or Paladin.

4E Monk =/= an A;tLA Bender. You can go down that route, using 4E Monk as part of the package, in the same way you can use Rogue or Bard to create a Knight in Shining Armour, but on it's own and of itself, it just doesn't match and I think a lot of players feel cheated by that disconnect; because they think 4E should be something it's not.

[LudicSavant]

What I can't understand is that when people said that earlier in the thread, Asisreo1 was arguing against them saying that it fulfills the fantasy of A:TLA.

[Asisreo1]

What I can't understand is that when people said that earlier in the thread, Asisreo1 was arguing against them saying that it fulfills the fantasy of A:TLA.

Did I? I don't remember A:TLA being brought up more than once or twice. Could've sworn when it was, I said they were more druidic or sorcerous or something. I don't think it fits the fantasy of A:TLA.

I think it fits the fantasy of an elemonk. Maybe I just easily adopted to the fantasy. I guess an elemonk to me would look somewhat like how a MK character would fight without all the camping and zoning and spamming. I don't associate elemonks with A:TLA

Maybe the devs actually watched A:TLA movie and was inspired by that because I can't remember that garbage but I remember the fact that fire benders couldn't even summon fire and earth benders need a whole Cirque d'Soleil choreographed dance routine just to move a rock about the size of a baby. I think there were alot of punches in that movie and the WoTC team might've been like "ah, this franchise is garbage but this is what being a bender is. It's popular so we'll put it in for the fans." That's just a theory anyways.

[Contrast]

It'd be like saying "I want to play a Knight in Shining Armour" and complaining that the Rogue Class just isn't fulfilling the character you had in mind.

If the Rogue had a subclass called 'Knight in Shining Armour' I feel like the comparison would be more apt. Of course a rogue subclass called Knight in Shining Armour could still be perfectly mechanically sound even if it didn't deliver on the knight experience but many people, myself included, feel that the 4E monk will in many campaigns fall short on both fronts.

Did I? I don't remember A:TLA being brought up more than once or twice. Could've sworn when it was, I said they were more druidic or sorcerous or something. I don't think it fits the fantasy of A:TLA.

I think you may have actually been the first one to bring up the comparison.

You're fulfilling the fantasy of a trained martial artist that uses their mystic connection to the elements to supernaturally enhance their abilities, like The Last Airbender.

[Asisreo1]

I think you may have actually been the first one to bring up the comparison.

Ooh, I did say that, huh? Page 3...that's why I couldn't remember. Well, I was wrong about that but I did say somewhere shortly after that if you wanted to throw elemental effects around, you might want to go Druid. Thank you for correcting me.

Couldn't you go druid if you just wanted mastery of the elements, no monk-ness involved? Thunderwave, fog cloud, heat metal, flame blade, gust of wind, call lightning, wind wall.

If you just wanted to be an elemental spellcaster with non of the monk benefits, why don't you?

[MadBear]

While I do think you could probably get close to playing a bender from Avatar, using a druid you run into issues with many of the assumptions of that class.

1. your only cantrip that's elemental is produce flame, which is great if you go fire, it's less useful for anything else
2. Many of the druids abilities and features connect with nature, and less so the elements. (shape shifting, many of the spells controlling animals/plants).

I definitely see the point of re-fluffing everything with "well stunning strike is just you encasing the opponent in ice", but you quickly run the risk of it not really feeling genuine. If I told someone who wanted to play a an elemental sword wielder that we could just "refluff all you spells to be you running around make elemental attacks with a sword and running back to your original location" that technically works, but would feel super ham-fisted. And while it is an exaggeration compared to what were talking about with the monk, it's not very far off.

Honestly, the only thing this thread has taught me, is that an elemental monk would need a major overhaul to be effective at getting at playing a character from Avatar.

[MaxWilson]

1. your only cantrip that's elemental is produce flame, which is great if you go fire, it's less useful for anything else

Frostbite, Magic Stone, Gust, and Thunderclap are all druid cantrips.

Honestly, the only thing this thread has taught me, is that an elemental monk would need a major overhaul to be effective at getting at playing a character from Avatar.

What I've learned from this thread is that apparently Avatar "benders" don't really do anything monkish, they just cast spells. They pretty much sound like Wu-jen, which in 5E terms means either sorcerer or wizard.

[JellyPooga]

If the Rogue had a subclass called 'Knight in Shining Armour' I feel like the comparison would be more apt.

The point is that regardless of subclass, the base Class doesn't fulfil the character concept. Even if someone homebrewed a "Knight in SA" subclass for the Rogue, it still wouldn't feel right, because the features of the base Rogue Class don't fit the usual image of a SA Knight. By the same metric, trying to crowbar the Monk base Class into the "Elemental Bender" character concept doesn't work, because the base features of the Monk are about punching people and running fast, while Bending (as MaxWilson points out) is basically spellcasting.

[HPisBS]

What I've learned from this thread is that apparently Avatar "benders" don't really do anything monkish, they just cast spells. They pretty much sound like Wu-jen, which in 5E terms means either sorcerer or wizard.

And that's such a weird position to hold. Every bender is a martial artist. They do their fire blasts and everything else by punching, kicking, etc. When Zuko deflects someone else's fire blast, he does it through a defensive martial move. Set that fight during the solar eclipse and bring the characters within melee range of each other, and those same martial moves would still make sense. Zhao punches, Zuko deflects the blow down and to the side, etc. Some characters even use weapons to enhance their bending in the same way they would enhance the underpinning martial arts.

Avatar's fighting is perfectly monkish, just with some elemental effects extending from their martial arts, so this:

The point is that regardless of subclass, the base Class doesn't fulfil the character concept.

- doesn't really apply here.

By the same metric, trying to crowbar the Monk base Class into the "Elemental Bender" character concept doesn't work, because the base features of the Monk are about punching people and running fast, while Bending (as MaxWilson points out) is basically spellcasting.

Bending is portrayed very differently than DnD's spellcasting. It isn't some arcane or eldritch chanting and finger-waggling, but an extension of one's own body and spirit. Moreover, where every spellcaster can only cast so many spells in a day (barring lvl 18 wizards), Avatar's bending is portrayed more as an extension of oneself. They can use it all day long, limited only by their own body's stamina (since bending generally requires all of those martial moves) and perhaps mental focus.


And given that bending is done through martial arts, surely we can see how "punching people and running fast" could describe how Aang usually fights lol

[Zalabim]

If I really had to describe my expectations from a 4e monk, I would probably have to point to Centered Breath, Stone Fist, Desert Wind, and Eternal Tide. Aka, the four elemental traditions of the 4e monk.

[MaxWilson]

And that's such a weird position to hold. Every bender is a martial artist. They do their fire blasts and everything else by punching, kicking, etc.

Someone posted a clip of an iconic bender vs. bender fight earlier in this thread, and I think I only saw one punch thrown in that whole fight. You don't need Extra Attack to throw a single punch, once. Looked like a wizard vs. wizard fight to me.

Bending is portrayed very differently than DnD's spellcasting. It isn't some arcane or eldritch chanting and finger-waggling, but an extension of one's own body and spirit.

A distinction without a difference.

Moreover, where every spellcaster can only cast so many spells in a day (barring lvl 18 wizards), Avatar's bending is portrayed more as an extension of oneself. They can use it all day long, limited only by their own body's stamina (since bending generally requires all of those martial moves) and perhaps mental focus.

Another distinction without a difference. Use DMG spell points, done.

[JellyPooga]

stuff

I disagree.

- In appearance, yes, Bending looks like martials arts, even copies the form of certain styles.
- I also agree that some Benders in the show are also trained in martial arts and that their proficiency with Bending assists their practice of martial arts and vice versa because of the similarities in form.
- This does not make Bending the same thing as being able to fight with Martial Arts and nor does one rely on the practice of the other. As I mentioned, Kattara and Toph are front and centre examples of this; both are master Benders, among the best in the world, but neither are especially proficient in combat without their bending.

It's a false equivalence and your mistake is in conflating the appearance of something with the practice of something. An actor can go through the motions of playing a musical instrument, but that does not make them a musician. An American Football star might be great at taking someone down on the sports field but that does not make them good in a fist-fight. A Fire Bender might look like he's "punching" fire out of his fists, but that doesn't mean he can actually throw a punch to knock someone out.

The argument about how magic works in D&D compared to Avatar is entirely irrelevent. You can claim a Wizards casting to be just as much an extension of the self and tied to the spirit/soul as Bending is, just as much as you can claim it to be arcane mumbo jumbo. Further, Bending is limited to more than being able to use it all day long as you point out and as such, a uses/day or per rest mechanic is just that; a mechanic to demonstrate that limitation as well as the potential for growth and greater bending stamina as level rises.

[Kane0]

I’m with HPisBS on this one, to me a bender fits (or should fit) far more as a 4E monk than any other class.