4-elements Monk

[JellyPooga]

I’m with HPisBS on this one, to me a bender fits (or should fit) far more as a 4E monk than any other class.

The fact that you feel like it <i>should</i> fit is proof enough that it doesn't.

At the end of the day, bending isn't about punching people or moving fast, it's about magically manipulating a single element from the classic four; which in D&D terms is best represented by spellcasting. Monk, as a base class, does nothing to represent that. 4E, as a subclass, is a pale facsimile of it. I really fail to see, aside from the similar "psuedo-eastern" influence, how 4E Monk actually fits Bending.

[Nifft]

The fact that you feel like it <i>should</i> fit is proof enough that it doesn't.

Yes, I think everyone agrees that the 4E Monk as written is not a good fit for the Benders, even though Bending seems to be a major intended inspiration for the 4E Monk subclass.

Most people here seem to feel that Benders should be represented by a Monk subclass; you appear to disagree about that part.

[Deathtongue]

While a lot of hay has been made about how the 4E Monk is bad at simulating elementalists like Iceman and Katara and the Human Torch, I don't want people to forget that the 4E Monk is also bad at simulating actual element-based martial artists like Scorpion and Sasuke Uchiha.

I mean, let's take a look at Sub-Zero. He has ice-manipulation powers and he's a master martial artist. You want to play that character, because he's probably the most famous ice-based martial artist in pop culture. He kills people with his martial arts, to include both weapons and his fists, and does cool magical martial artist things like dodge bullets and strike people in their pressure points. Sweet. Okay, as a Sub-Zero knockoff, you'd probably want to do the following:

1) Create weapons made out of pure ice.
2) Create shields and barriers, maybe even armor. made out of ice.
3) Freeze over the floor to make the ground slippery/slushy and give you a tactical advantage.
4) Encase things in ice. Doesn't have to be the entire body, just their feet or a hand will be enough.
5) Breathe blasts of cold air.
6) Punch people and because you freeze at a touch, it hurts more.

Also, it has to be combat-viable. I don't want any crap where it takes me a minute or even three actions to create and carve a block of ice into a maul. I'm not just picking the class for flavor and noncombat shenanigans, I want to be Sub-Zero. So let's see what the class gives me.

Breath of Winter: Okay, this appears to be exactly what we were asking for. Step 5 on our list. Except, uhhhh it comes at level 17. Sub-Zero is not a level-17 concept. Maybe we can do better?
Fist of Unbroken Air: Eh, we'll let it slide. We'll reflavor them as blasts of cold air.
Mist Stance: Turning into mist isn't what Sub-Zero does, but it is an appropriate ice-based power and we don't have to complete emulate the character, so we'll let it slide. Unfortunately, it comes online at level 11, we enter the class at level 3. Ah, hm.
Shape the Flowing River: In theory, this could be a thematically great power if your DM plays along. However, unless you have some other way of creating 30' cubes of water you're at your DM's mercy. I may as well just ask for a magic item. Still, if you're playing in a water-themed campaign I could definitely see it being used a lot.
Water Whip: Despite the name, no reason we can't flavor this as ice. And it's available right away.
Wave of Rolling Earth: Again, no reason why you can't flavor the rock as ice (especially since the stone is much softer than typical stones) but it's also a level-17 effect.

All right. At level 3, 6, and 11 we pick, in order, Water Whip, Fist of Unbroken Air, and Mist Stance.

Okay, it's level 11 -- not only is this the theoretical halfway point of the game, but only like 5% of campaigns get this far. If our character concept hasn't come together by now, it's just not playable. And yet... I don't know about you, but I sure don't feel like I'm playing Sub-Zero. Yes, I have the martial arts and I can do ice things, but what the hell? Where's the ice weapons? Where's the turning low-level thugs into ice and shattering them? Where's the kicking people through ice sculptures? Don't get me wrong, an 11th level monk doesn't have to do everything or even half of what Sub-Zero does, but he should be able to do SOMETHING.

And Sub-Zero is about is good as it gets with this subclass. If I wanted to make an air-themed or earth-theme magical martial artist, this subclass is extra-unhelpful.

[Kane0]

I really fail to see, aside from the similar "psuedo-eastern" influence, how 4E Monk actually fits Bending.

Its really just that. Monk is the default catchall for anything oriental or wuxia, and the creators of Avatar have gone on record drawing their influences such as fighting styles, culture and building design.
Mind you, I primarily think of Jade Empire when i think of the 4E monk but Avatar Style Benders are a close second. Probably because JE is a western RPG made by the Baldurs Gate folks.

Its not a very good subclass compared to the others and that really sucks, but it doesnt change the flavor. The classical elements existed in east and west but in pop culture are more commonly associated with the east, and as such are quite often are combined with martial arts in some way.

Applying Occam’s razor, its just easiest to take the 4E monk at face value rather than try to massage what yiu’re looking for into another class such as the Druid which draws on Celtic influences.

-Sub-Zero-

Ooh okay I can work with this. Does this do it better? More feedback equals better results.

[Asisreo1]

While a lot of hay has been made about how the 4E Monk is bad at simulating elementalists like Iceman and Katara and the Human Torch, I don't want people to forget that the 4E Monk is also bad at simulating actual element-based martial artists like Scorpion and Sasuke Uchiha.

I mean, let's take a look at Sub-Zero. He has ice-manipulation powers and he's a master martial artist. You want to play that character, because he's probably the most famous ice-based martial artist in pop culture. He kills people with his martial arts, to include both weapons and his fists, and does cool magical martial artist things like dodge bullets and strike people in their pressure points. Sweet. Okay, as a Sub-Zero knockoff, you'd probably want to do the following:

1) Create weapons made out of pure ice.
2) Create shields and barriers, maybe even armor. made out of ice.
3) Freeze over the floor to make the ground slippery/slushy and give you a tactical advantage.
4) Encase things in ice. Doesn't have to be the entire body, just their feet or a hand will be enough.
5) Breathe blasts of cold air.
6) Punch people and because you freeze at a touch, it hurts more.

Also, it has to be combat-viable. I don't want any crap where it takes me a minute or even three actions to create and carve a block of ice into a maul. I'm not just picking the class for flavor and noncombat shenanigans, I want to be Sub-Zero. So let's see what the class gives me.

Breath of Winter: Okay, this appears to be exactly what we were asking for. Step 5 on our list. Except, uhhhh it comes at level 17. Sub-Zero is not a level-17 concept. Maybe we can do better?
Fist of Unbroken Air: Eh, we'll let it slide. We'll reflavor them as blasts of cold air.
Mist Stance: Turning into mist isn't what Sub-Zero does, but it is an appropriate ice-based power and we don't have to complete emulate the character, so we'll let it slide. Unfortunately, it comes online at level 11, we enter the class at level 3. Ah, hm.
Shape the Flowing River: In theory, this could be a thematically great power if your DM plays along. However, unless you have some other way of creating 30' cubes of water you're at your DM's mercy. I may as well just ask for a magic item. Still, if you're playing in a water-themed campaign I could definitely see it being used a lot.
Water Whip: Despite the name, no reason we can't flavor this as ice. And it's available right away.
Wave of Rolling Earth: Again, no reason why you can't flavor the rock as ice (especially since the stone is much softer than typical stones) but it's also a level-17 effect.

All right. At level 3, 6, and 11 we pick, in order, Water Whip, Fist of Unbroken Air, and Mist Stance.

Okay, it's level 11 -- not only is this the theoretical halfway point of the game, but only like 5% of campaigns get this far. If our character concept hasn't come together by now, it's just not playable. And yet... I don't know about you, but I sure don't feel like I'm playing Sub-Zero. Yes, I have the martial arts and I can do ice things, but what the hell? Where's the ice weapons? Where's the turning low-level thugs into ice and shattering them? Where's the kicking people through ice sculptures? Don't get me wrong, an 11th level monk doesn't have to do everything or even half of what Sub-Zero does, but he should be able to do SOMETHING.

And Sub-Zero is about is good as it gets with this subclass. If I wanted to make an air-themed or earth-theme magical martial artist, this subclass is extra-unhelpful.

How in the netherrealms is Sub-Zero not at least level 17? He's the Grandmaster of the Lin Kuei and goes toe-to-toe with hellspawns, Realm Champions, the Elder Gods, and even a movie actor!

Flowing river can indeed make weapons, you need to have them not injure anyone in their area. In fact, shape the flowing river can do the majority of what sub-zero can.

You can make a ball of ice and throw it at an enemy. Well, in MK9 it doesn't really do damage, it just freezes. Something like Clench of the North Wind. He doesn't really fight many nonhumanoid enemies. Maybe...Raiden would be celestial? Scorpion would be undead? Otherwise, his opponents are pretty humanoid.

You can turn low level thugs into ice and shatter them. That's just something with clench of the North Wind. At max level, he can do it to 4 enemies at once and shatter them next turn. They're supposed to be low level, so you can dispatch them very quickly and it'll be very hard for them to escape your DC 19 spell save.

And 6ki isn't even really that much at that level. You probably weren't doing it to reserve resources moreso that you can just flex on your enemies and scare them away.

[Kane0]

How in the netherrealms is Sub-Zero not at least level 17? He's the Grandmaster of the Lin Kuei and goes toe-to-toe with hellspawns, Realm Champions, the Elder Gods, and even a movie actor!

Because in D&D 5e a character concept should be mostly online by level 3-5, so you can actually enjoy being the character you envisioned for the majority of play. Sub-Zero is a very simple concept: [Martial Artist] + [Ice powers].

[Deathtongue]

How in the netherrealms is Sub-Zero not at least level 17? He's the Grandmaster of the Lin Kuei and goes toe-to-toe with hellspawns, Realm Champions, the Elder Gods, and even a movie actor!

Give me 9 levels of Paladin and access to the Tavern Brawler feat and I can recreate the important narrative aspects of the character. Which is more than I can say for 9 levels of 4E Monk.

[Misterwhisper]

Because in D&D 5e a character concept should be mostly online by level 3-5, so you can actually enjoy being the character you envisioned for the majority of play. Sub-Zero is a very simple concept: [Martial Artist] + [Ice powers].

Just a monk with magic initiate for ray of frost and ice knife.

[Asisreo1]

Because in D&D 5e a character concept should be mostly online by level 3-5, so you can actually enjoy being the character you envisioned for the majority of play. Sub-Zero is a very simple concept: [Martial Artist] + [Ice powers].

Says who? Did the Dev's in the book say "level 3-5 should be when your full character concept should be online and you can play everyone you want?"

How would someone go about playing superman? Batman?

Surely the hulk is a minimum of a level 20 barbarian. Even the movie version which was nerfed to a different multiverse and back.

How would I go about making a true Goku? Sun Soul? When do they get to fly?

Like, it's also just odd that you expect to play a grandmaster character with decades of experience under their belt and secret techniques only at level 3-5. Of course you're going to be a nerfed version of a Master of the World type character when you're only just a Local Hero tier person.

[Dienekes]

The fact that you feel like it <i>should</i> fit is proof enough that it doesn't.

At the end of the day, bending isn't about punching people or moving fast, it's about magically manipulating a single element from the classic four; which in D&D terms is best represented by spellcasting. Monk, as a base class, does nothing to represent that. 4E, as a subclass, is a pale facsimile of it. I really fail to see, aside from the similar "psuedo-eastern" influence, how 4E Monk actually fits Bending.

Eh. Sorta kinda.

Bending in the original show was definitely about controlling elements. But the way it was done was incredibly physical. Every fireball was a punch. Toph is clearly using Mantis Kung Fu to get her rocks to move. People would literally bodyslam the dirt as part of their attacks. People made swords out of flame and fought with actual martial arts techniques.

And that's not even getting into the movement. Everyone was bouncing around, hovering, sliding. Building up momentum to create their big finishing move.

Everything about the fights in Avatar were designed to model a martial arts bout, or at least the platonic ideal of a martial arts bout. That's part of what made the fight scenes so impressive.

The Monk, in theory is also based around being the martial artist. However, it doesn't really do a good job of modelling that. Or more precisely, the base structure of 5e does a remarkably bad job of modelling actual fighting for a game that revolves around it so extensively. And as you say, modeling control of the elements is best represented by various spells in 5e.

So we're left with the Four Elements Monk. It's clearly (and I believe Crawford has said as much) inspired by Avatar. They took the class that's supposed to model the same fighting that the martial artists in Avatar used. And they slapped on various spells that control the elements, which is what the characters on Avatar did.

But the end result is a class that is supposed to model martial arts, but doesn't. With spells that don't work anything at all like bending does in Avatar. And it has left people disappointed since it was released.

[Asisreo1]

Give me 9 levels of Paladin and access to the Tavern Brawler feat and I can recreate the important narrative aspects of the character. Which is more than I can say for 7 levels of 4E Monk.

The important narrative? Would subzero really lose to a generic assassin 1-on-1 because that's probably what's going to happen.

I mean, if you want to be a generic ice-slinging character at level 3-5, sure whatever, but if you want to be the Grandmaster of the Lin Kueie, you'll have to be alot stronger than that.

[Misterwhisper]

The important narrative? Would subzero really lose to a generic assassin 1-on-1 because that's probably what's going to happen.

I mean, if you want to be a generic ice-slinging character at level 3-5, sure whatever, but if you want to be the Grandmaster of the Lin Kueie, you'll have to be alot stronger than that.

Then build up to it. You do not start an adventure as a grand master of something.

At level 3 you are a generic martial artist with an ice theme, later like post 17th level you are a grand master.

Just about every concept you have mentions is not a dnd concept it is a super hero concept.

That kind of thing is more Mutants and Masterminds than dnd.

[Asisreo1]

Then build up to it. You do not start an adventure as a grand master of something.

At level 3 you are a generic martial artist with an ice theme, later like post 17th level you are a grand master.

Just about every concept you have mentions is not a dnd concept it is a super hero concept.

That kind of thing is more Mutants and Masterminds than dnd.

But that's what I'm saying. Everyone's kinda assuming that subzero's abilities aren't the work of years of Grandmaster training. He trained for decades to get where he is. If someone could be a local hero with the same type of powers as subzero, they would be.

Even the kid training directly under subzero didn't get ice powers. That's because it doesn't come easy or naturally. He'd have to dedicate his entire life to cryomancy and he wasn't going to do that.

[MaxWilson]

Its really just that. Monk is the default catchall for anything oriental or wuxia, and the creators of Avatar have gone on record drawing their influences such as fighting styles, culture and building design.

What about Samurai? (Ah, good old Wizardry!) And Wu Jens have a long, long history in D&D too even though in 5E they've only showed up so far in UA.

Why shouldn't a bender be a new wizard "Wu Jen" subclass specializing in elemental effects? E.g. changing spells like Web so the effects are made of ice and do +d4 cold damage to anyone affected by it, in addition to the normal effects, or using icy pillars instead of raw Telekinesis (again adding cold damage. That would fit the Avatar footage someone posted earlier, especially if Counterspell becomes elemental too (e.g. maybe a subclass ability instead of a spell: as a reaction to spellcasting, if an elemental spell you have prepared could conceivably counteract the spell being cast, you can cast that spell as a reaction, but instead of its normal effect it works like a Counterspell one level higher than the spell slot you expend).

[Deathtongue]

Just a monk with magic initiate for ray of frost and ice knife.

But they're going to suck at it unless they rolled like a Greek god for their stats. None of the classes (Wizard, Sorcerer, Artificer), feats (Magic Initiate, Spell Sniper) or races (High Elf, Levistus Tiefling) that give you Ray of Frost use a non-monk dump stat for it. And 95% of monks don't -- or rather, can't -- put more than a 10 in either INT or CHA.

[MadBear]

Because in D&D 5e a character concept should be mostly online by level 3-5, so you can actually enjoy being the character you envisioned for the majority of play.

Says who? Did the Dev's in the book say "level 3-5 should be when your full character concept should be online and you can play everyone you want?"

your equivocating here. Saying that the character concept should be mostly online is not the same as saying your full character concept should be online.

For example, my friends playing a pseudo Iron Man in our current campaign. They're doing this by playing a Forge Cleric. At level 5, they get to feel very much like Iron Man. They have a full suit of armor, can make blasts using Guiding bolt, etc. etc.

As of now they don't have flight, but the character feels like a medieval Iron Man, that plays much of how they'd like it to play. It's not fully realized, and probably never will be, but it's close enough that are team feels like the avengers.

by level 5, the sub-zero concept feels not even close yet.

That's the difference that's being pointed out.

[MaxWilson]

But they're going to suck at it unless they rolled like a Greek god for their stats. None of the classes (Wizard, Sorcerer, Artificer), feats (Magic Initiate, Spell Sniper) or races (High Elf, Levistus Tiefling) that give you Ray of Frost use a non-monk dump stat for it. And 95% of monks don't -- or rather, can't -- put more than a 10 in either INT or CHA.

Magic Initiate (Druid) for Frost Bite, Gust, and Absorb Elements might be a better choice.

by level 5, the sub-zero concept feels not even close yet.

That's the difference that's being pointed out.

By level 5 you can freeze enemies with Frost Bite, by level six you can encase humanoids in ice to freeze them, then shatter that ice (autocrits). That's closer to an ice fighter than 5E gets to some other concepts (Indiana Jones, Sherlock Holmes, Batman, Conan, Gandalf).

[MadBear]

What about Samurai? (Ah, good old Wizardry!) And Wu Jens have a long, long history in D&D too even though in 5E they've only showed up so far in UA.

Why shouldn't a bender be a new wizard "Wu Jen" subclass specializing in elemental effects? E.g. changing spells like Web so the effects are made of ice and do +d4 cold damage to anyone affected by it, in addition to the normal effects, or using icy pillars instead of raw Telekinesis (again adding cold damage. That would fit the Avatar footage someone posted earlier, especially if Counterspell becomes elemental too (e.g. maybe a subclass ability instead of a spell: as a reaction to spellcasting, if an elemental spell you have prepared could conceivably counteract the spell being cast, you can cast that spell as a reaction, but instead of its normal effect it works like a Counterspell one level higher than the spell slot you expend).

I mean, if you made a Sorcerer subclass that granted unarmed fighting proficiency and allowed it to do d4 damage that scaled, you could be on to something. Without extra attack, it's not like it would be too powerful, but at least then it'd start to fit the theme.

[Deathtongue]

But that's what I'm saying. Everyone's kinda assuming that subzero's abilities aren't the work of years of Grandmaster training. He trained for decades to get where he is. If someone could be a local hero with the same type of powers as subzero, they would be.

The kind of Subzero you see in the original two Mortal Kombat games is not a high-level concept. Level 8, tops. Enough to mow down hordes of minions and go toe-to-toe with the NPC Assassin, especially if they're backed up by some kind of poison resistance.

And yet, the 4Elem Monk doesn't recreate the character in time for most games to end. That's unacceptable. If your build isn't largely online by level 5 and isn't completely online by level 9 -- with everything else just gravy -- then something went wrong with either the rules or the concept. Having the important parts of Subzero by level 5 (an ice-based defense, cold-based distance attack, martial arts prowess) isn't a tall order and there are a number of builds that can meet this standard. Especially if you use Unearthed Arcana stuff and/or allow minor refluffing; changing the damage type of Spiritual Weapon and Spirit Guardians, for instance, to cold is purely a mechanical downgrade.

Regardless, the 4Elem monk is not one of those classes you should be using if you want to play Sub-Zero before level 11.

[MaxWilson]

I mean, if you made a Sorcerer subclass that granted unarmed fighting proficiency and allowed it to do d4 damage that scaled, you could be on to something. Without extra attack, it's not like it would be too powerful, but at least then it'd start to fit the theme.

Sure, sounds fine. Sorcerers are proficient in unarmed fighting already.

[Kane0]

What about Samurai? (Ah, good old Wizardry!) And Wu Jens have a long, long history in D&D too even though in 5E they've only showed up so far in UA.

Why shouldn't a bender be a new wizard "Wu Jen" subclass specializing in elemental effects?

Samurai are primarily depicted as armored weapon users, fighters are the default catchall armored weapon users that leaves a lot of room for flavor via subclass. Personally I would have much preferred the Kensei to be a fighter subclass that gets a little Ki rather than a monk subclass, but alas.

I'd love for Wu Jen to make it out of UA and into 5e proper, if it were to no longer be a part of the mystic (since mystic has been scrapped) then a sorc subclass would make sense to me. In fact the Wu Jen would be a perfect 'full-elementalist' counterpart to the 4e 'semi-elementalist'

[Asisreo1]

The kind of Subzero you see in the original two Mortal Kombat games is not a high-level concept. Level 8, tops. Enough to mow down hordes of minions and go toe-to-toe with the NPC Assassin, especially if they're backed up by some kind of poison resistance.

And yet, the 4Elem Monk doesn't recreate the character in time for most games to end. That's unacceptable. If your build isn't largely online by level 5 and isn't completely online by level 9 -- with everything else just gravy -- then something went wrong with either the rules or the concept. Having the important parts of Subzero by level 5 (an ice-based defense, cold-based distance attack, martial arts prowess) isn't a tall order and there are a number of builds that can meet this standard. Especially if you use Unearthed Arcana stuff and/or allow minor refluffing; changing the damage type of Spiritual Weapon and Spirit Guardians, for instance, to cold is purely a mechanical downgrade.

Regardless, the 4Elem monk is not one of those classes you should be using if you want to play Sub-Zero before level 11.

But says who? Who says that your character concept should be that close by level 3-5.

But yeah, you can easily take magic initiate if it's that important at such low levels.

But even MK 1&2 subzero is fighting those same hellspawns, gods, and movie actors. Plus a high-level sorcerer.

[Kane0]

But says who? Who says that your character concept should be that close by level 3-5.

Do you need an authority when I presented my own argument? If I trawl through Mearls or Crawford articles are you going to dismiss it?

[Asisreo1]

Do you need an authority when I presented my own argument? If I trawl through Mearls or Crawford articles are you going to dismiss it?

Yes, because they're not the entire design team. They're a face but even when they make public statements, it's only their opinion. And I'm sure I've seen the "fully formed character" thing from them. That does not mean you can make someone as strong as Subzero at level 3-5.

[HPisBS]

Someone posted a clip of an iconic bender vs. bender fight earlier in this thread, and I think I only saw one punch thrown in that whole fight. You don't need Extra Attack to throw a single punch, once. Looked like a wizard vs. wizard fight to me.

If you mean this

Using the word "bender" implies very heavily that their fantasy is informed by Avatar: the Last Airbender and Avatar: The Legend of Korra, where the visuals and lore for elemental manipulation are based on martial arts.

This is a pretty good example of what they're probably thinking of.

- then it looks that way because waterbending is based on tai chi, a "soft" martial art which is largely about redirecting your opponent's momentum, rather than a "hard" martial art which uses a lot of strikes like northern shaolin style (which is what firebending is based on).

A distinction without a difference.

Another distinction without a difference. Use DMG spell points, done.

- And others

Kinda yes, kinda no. We're discussing a fantasy rpg, after all. Sure, we can fluff whatever we want more or less however we like, but that only gets you so far when you want to feel like you're playing a certain fantasy. The fantasy of Avatar is to fight with elements. It's to swing your air-enveloped staff, then Dodge your enemies' attacks. It's to Water Whip (even that ability's name came from Avatar) enemies into the body of water you're surfing on. It's to pop up a short rock wall to take cover behind, then punch that same rock at your enemies, chunk by chunk.

... I also agree that some Benders in the show are also trained in martial arts and that their proficiency with Bending assists their practice of martial arts and vice versa because of the similarities in form.
- This does not make Bending the same thing as being able to fight with Martial Arts and nor does one rely on the practice of the other. As I mentioned, Kattara and Toph are front and centre examples of this; both are master Benders, among the best in the world, but neither are especially proficient in combat without their bending.

ALL benders know martial arts. It's how they do it. That Katara and Toph never fight without their bending doesn't mean much since they never had a reason to. (And if they did, then the fact they were young girls would have actually been a disadvantage, especially for Toph.)

It's a false equivalence and your mistake is in conflating the appearance of something with the practice of something.
snip

Sure, we can say that nothing is as it seems, that it only looks like martial arts. There's no reason for people to know how to actually fight in a war, anyways. But even granting that all those punches, kicks, and other martial moves may just amount to theatrics (technically true from our pov, since Avatar is entertainment) within the setting's own internal logic, it's still very much a part of the fantasy for a great many players.

It's hard to believe that WotC could have been ignorant of that fantasy when they built and named the subclass. It seems far more likely that they intentionally evoked that fantasy... but just botched the implementation. I'm pretty sure they even stated that's what inspired it at some point.

Yes, because they're not the entire design team. They're a face but even when they make public statements, it's only their opinion. And I'm sure I've seen the "fully formed character" thing from them. That does not mean you can make someone as strong as Subzero at level 3-5.

Ah, wait. Guess that doesn't matter after all.

Anyway, I'm pretty sure nobody said "as strong as," just wanted "the general feel of."

[Asisreo1]

If you mean this


- then it looks that way because waterbending is based on tai chi, a "soft" martial art which is largely about redirecting your opponent's momentum, rather than a "hard" martial art which uses a lot of strikes like northern shaolin style (which is what firebending is based on).




Kinda yes, kinda no. We're discussing a fantasy rpg, after all. Sure, we can fluff whatever we want more or less however we like, but that only gets you so far when you want to feel like you're playing a certain fantasy. The fantasy of Avatar is to fight with elements. It's to swing your air-enveloped staff, then Dodge your enemies' attacks. It's to Water Whip (even that ability's name came from Avatar) enemies into the body of water you're surfing on. It's to pop up a short rock wall to take cover behind, then punch that same rock at your enemies, chunk by chunk.




ALL benders know martial arts. It's how they do it. That Katara and Toph never fight without their bending doesn't mean much since they never had a reason to. (And if they did, then the fact they were young girls would have actually been a disadvantage, especially for Toph.)



Sure, we can say that nothing is as it seems, that it only looks like martial arts. There's no reason for people to know how to actually fight in a war, anyways. But even granting that all those punches, kicks, and other martial moves may just amount to theatrics (technically true from our pov, since Avatar is entertainment) within the setting's own internal logic, it's still very much a part of the fantasy for a great many players.

It's hard to believe that WotC could have been ignorant of that fantasy when they built and named the subclass. It seems far more likely that they intentionally evoked that fantasy... but just botched the implementation. I'm pretty sure they even stated that's what inspired it at some point.

Let's be honest, nobody would want to actually play anyone except for Aang in the game, and only a series finale Aang because the majority of book 1, he had only air & water bending, he got earthbending book 2, and he got firebending book 3.

But at least he was capable of using all the elements.

A class/subclass true to the actual avatar style would require you to take one separate discipline line with only one type of element and if anything resisted it, you'd just be screwed. Unless you choose the avatar's discipline which gives you weaker versions of all spell elements. You couldn't get any lightning spells because that'd be locked to the fire discipline and it would be very late game. That, or it could be an entire archetype where a couple levels gives stuff like redirect lightning, lightning bolt, chain lightning.

But I don't think that'll work for the system, I think that's best left to be an entirely different system.

And I think such a system could be cool within it's system confines. Water disciples could heal and control people's bodies. Earth disciples could shift sand and eventually metal. Fire disciples could shoot giant AoE high damage effects and summon lightning. Air disciples could fly and move extremely quickly.

But in the actual game of D&D, being locked to one element, especially one like fire, sucks massively. And it probably wouldn't be all that good for the monk.

But in D&D, you might be able to get away with being a cleric for a water bender, a sorcerer/wizard for a firebender, a Druid for an earthbender, and you could get away with being an airbender as either a Druid or 4-elemonk. Though Druid gives you gust without a feat.

The way martial arts look doesn't change the fact that those are still just somatic components. I could call bring about the complexities of mastering the art of nunchuks and how they're actually a simple farming tool that would take centuries of dedication to master...but a monk could pick one up and master it the moment they see it. And a fighter could as well. Because they're just re-skinned clubs.

Ah, wait. Guess that doesn't matter after all.

Anyway, I'm pretty sure nobody said "as strong as," just wanting "the general feel of."

Like someone else said, take magic initiate ice knife. I mean, surely you understand taking feats and multiclassing if you want a very specific spellcaster.

[Zalabim]

Let's be honest, nobody would want to actually play anyone except for Aang in the game, and only a series finale Aang because the majority of book 1, he had only air & water bending, he got earthbending book 2, and he got firebending book 3.

But at least he was capable of using all the elements.

A class/subclass true to the actual avatar style would require you to take one separate discipline line with only one type of element and if anything resisted it, you'd just be screwed. Unless you choose the avatar's discipline which gives you weaker versions of all spell elements. You couldn't get any lightning spells because that'd be locked to the fire discipline and it would be very late game. That, or it could be an entire archetype where a couple levels gives stuff like redirect lightning, lightning bolt, chain lightning.

I think it would actually have you learn one element at a time mimicing the avatar's journey and letting the player pick the order. If you did that with the discipline list they have right now, they'd end up knowing a few more 'spells' than the EK or AT, to go along with their list going up to 5th-level spells. (I realize this is against the usual point of a list of abilities to choose along.)

That said, I see this as a good explanation for why the four different elemental traditions in 4e would be mashed together into one subclass in 5e. There is a push for characters to have broader design potential compared to 4th edition, as well as sheer page economy. So instead of "the fire school", "the water school", etc they tried to make one "elemental university" offering many courses. It's just that student enrollment is down because the class credit:hours ratio is poor.

[MaxWilson]

If you mean this

- then it looks that way because waterbending is based on tai chi, a "soft" martial art which is largely about redirecting your opponent's momentum, rather than a "hard" martial art which uses a lot of strikes like northern shaolin style (which is what firebending is based on).

I saw zero punches thrown in the Firebending clip, only spellcasting. You clearly don't need Extra Attack to be a fire bender.

[HPisBS]

I saw zero punches thrown in the Firebending clip, only spellcasting. You clearly don't need Extra Attack to be a fire bender.

Reeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeaaaaaaaaaaaaaaly, now?

[MaxWilson]

Reeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeaaaaaaaaaaaaaaly, now?

Are you saying those were real punches and they both just whiffed repeatedly? #epicfail, heh.