4-elements Monk

[MaxWilson]

Hmm, there's also Ag's Scorcher and Scorching Ray instead.

So many fire spells, so few for the others...

Why so determined to make Fireball more expensive and delay it until level 13?

[Kane0]

Wasn't really, was just matching equivalent spell point cost to prof bonus.

[MaxWilson]

Wasn't really, was just matching equivalent spell point cost to prof bonus.

Well, you shouldn't. The Elemonk's discount on 3rd+ level spells is a nice feature, and one of the reasons they get dramatically better at level 11. Fly, Fireball, and/or Hold Person III (upgrades to Hold Person IV at level 13) plus one more (e.g. Shatter for fire-immune mobs, or Shape the Flowing River for situational full/partial cover) ~3 times per short rest is not a bad little package for a monk.

[Zuras]

Huh, well from what you just said there it looks like there's another playstyle difference: I would definitely not assume that 9 Fireballs went to 9 squads of mooks. You could easily use up 3-5 Fireballs in one encounter with a platoon of Githyanki, for example. It takes 2-4 Fireballs to kill any given Githyanki Warrior, and they won't all be clustered in the same place. Fifteen Githyanki Warriors is a perfectly reasonable encounter for Tier 3 PCs in my book, honestly a bit on the small side. (30 would make more sense as a platoon, but 30 teleporting enemies are unwieldy to run so I'd probably break them apart into two squads in hopes that the PCs would tackle the squads separately.)

If you nerf the Elemonk to the point where he's only got two Fireballs all day, what was even the point of him playing through those early levels where Elemonks are bad? At level 13 (under the proposed spell slot rules) they're still bad! But under PHB rules they're pretty awesome in that scenario.

Anyway, playstyle difference: I'm a big believer in bounded accuracy and monsters never going obsolete.

Yeah, I would never create an encounter with 15 Githyanki Warriors without some miniboss type Githyanki with them, and generally avoid really large encounters that aren’t at least Deadly, for my own sanity. I have run with as many as seven players at my tables, and a 7 on 30 combat can drag on interminably.

[MaxWilson]

Yeah, I would never create an encounter with 15 Githyanki Warriors without some miniboss type Githyanki with them, and generally avoid really large encounters that aren’t at least Deadly, for my own sanity. I have run with as many as seven players at my tables, and a 7 on 30 combat can drag on interminably.

It's already Deadly x2 (for four 13th level PCs) with 15 Githyanki Warriors. How does making it bigger and deadlier help your sanity? Was that a typo, and are you trying to say that you'd make it *smaller* for your own sanity?

15 Githyanki Warriors and a Gish are triple-Deadly, 65,600 adjusted XP. If you're trying to cut that down to just normal Deadly you can only afford 1 Gish + 5 Githyanki Warriors, and if so then yeah, I can see why Fireball wouldn't be attractive. It's redundant against small numbers of foes, you'd be better off with just Hypnotic Pattern.

Playstyle difference.

[Deathtongue]

I'm faintly amused by how the discussion of how to fix the 4E Monk keeps focusing on fire-themed spells. To me, it's just more damning evidence of how this subclass can't do its job either in a game mechanics or narrative respect.

I'll reiterate: multi-element wielders are surprisingly rare in action-adventure fiction, especially if it's more than two. They're not non-existent, but for every Aang you have five Scorpions. The irony of the 4E Monk is that if they were just an Airbender or a Lightningbender monk they would've found a larger audience.

[Dienekes]

If I can make a suggestion to the guys finagling about spells.

Ignore them. What do you want the 4E Monk to be able to do at what level? Make yourselves a big list.

If there’s a spell that fits at that level, perfect. If there’s not make the ability yourself.

[Pex]

I'm faintly amused by how the discussion of how to fix the 4E Monk keeps focusing on fire-themed spells. To me, it's just more damning evidence of how this subclass can't do its job either in a game mechanics or narrative respect.

I'll reiterate: multi-element wielders are surprisingly rare in action-adventure fiction, especially if it's more than two. They're not non-existent, but for every Aang you have five Scorpions. The irony of the 4E Monk is that if they were just an Airbender or a Lightningbender monk they would've found a larger audience.

If I can make a suggestion to the guys finagling about spells.

Ignore them. What do you want the 4E Monk to be able to do at what level? Make yourselves a big list.

If there’s a spell that fits at that level, perfect. If there’s not make the ability yourself.

Alternatively allow them to change the energy type. For example, they have Burning Hands at level 3. They can make it Freezing Hands, Electric Hands, or Corrosive Hands when they spend the ki to do it. Gaseous Form can be Mist Form to swim and breathe underwater, Rock form to burrow under ground. Ember form may not work if going through lava or a wall of fire unharmed is a bother, but maybe it is fine at the level it's acquired.

[Zuras]

It's already Deadly x2 (for four 13th level PCs) with 15 Githyanki Warriors. How does making it bigger and deadlier help your sanity? Was that a typo, and are you trying to say that you'd make it *smaller* for your own sanity?

15 Githyanki Warriors and a Gish are triple-Deadly, 65,600 adjusted XP. If you're trying to cut that down to just normal Deadly you can only afford 1 Gish + 5 Githyanki Warriors, and if so then yeah, I can see why Fireball wouldn't be attractive. It's redundant against small numbers of foes, you'd be better off with just Hypnotic Pattern.

Playstyle difference.

It is a “deadly” encounter by DMG standards, but I would not consider an encounter with 15 super mooks (as I would categorize them at Tier 3) as Deadly, in real terms. Where’s the tactical problem? Avoid getting swarmed by mooks who can teleport short distances? That’s not worth the real-time cost of running the combat for me.

Why isn’t the Gish with the Dragon leading them? Why invite defeat in detail? Why didn’t I (as DM) provide a boss for them to potentially negotiate with? I’m much better improvising motivations for single NPCs, so I almost always include bosses with mooks.

An encounter with a Drow guard force might start with 20 Drow, 2 Elite Warriors and a Mage, and escalate from there, with reinforcements like 2 Drow mages and a Stone Golem (flying and hasted by the two mages).

I will note that for quite some time the majority of my Tier 3 players were DMs for other tables on other nights, and I made a point of never turning down or even discouraging any AL legal optimized builds, so my disconnect between DMG “Deadly” and players actually breaking a sweat may be higher than some.

Someone playing an Elemonk at my table would likely get far more mileage out of Fly, or Gaseous Form than Fireball.

[HPisBS]

I'm faintly amused by how the discussion of how to fix the 4E Monk keeps focusing on fire-themed spells. To me, it's just more damning evidence of how this subclass can't do its job either in a game mechanics or narrative respect.

I'll reiterate: multi-element wielders are surprisingly rare in action-adventure fiction... The irony of the 4E Monk is that if they were just an Airbender or a Lightningbender monk they would've found a larger audience.

Alternatively allow them to change the energy type....

If I can make a suggestion to the guys finagling about spells.

Ignore them. What do you want the 4E Monk to be able to do at what level? Make yourselves a big list.

If there’s a spell that fits at that level, perfect. If there’s not make the ability yourself.

I've proposed something similar here. Rather than focus on spells, I said to just keep the raw disciplines and give a couple of extra abilities based on the elements you picked. If you choose air for your discipline(s), then you get

Spoiler: Air

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A1) If you know at least one discipline that is specifically related to air, you gain the following additional benefits:
- You know the Gust cantrip.
- You can Dash at double speed, and Dashing doesn't cause you exhaustion.

If you have two air disciplines, then you also get:

A2) If you know at least two disciplines that are specifically related to air, you gain the following additional benefits:
- Message cantrip.
- As a bonus action, wrap strong, rapidly oscillating winds around all daggers and darts you wield for 1 minute to make them act as magical monk weapons with a +1 per 2 ki points spent. The effect ends on any weapon you aren't holding at the end of your turn. You may also activate this ability as part of your Deflect Missiles reaction, and it applies to any such missiles you throw.

If you choose 1 or 2 water disciplines, then you get to learn:

Spoiler: Water

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W1)
- Shape Water cantrip.
- When you Disengage while at least a flask's worth of water is within 5 ft of you, you can either make mist heavily obscure that space until the start of your next turn, or make ice spread out on the ground behind you, turning up to 20 ft of the ground you traversed into difficult terrain until the start of your next turn, at which point, you may return it to where it came from.
W2)
- You can make your icy difficult terrain slippery enough to force other creatures to make Dex saves to avoid falling prone.
- You can make nearby water form a tendril that wraps around your free hand, which you can use to make magical unarmed attacks with a range of 10 ft.

And so on.

I figure they add a nice mix of minor thematic at-will abilities, and somewhat powerful thematic ki-based abilities (though the buff for having 2 water disciplines is still at-will).

[MaxWilson]

It is a “deadly” encounter by DMG standards, but I would not consider an encounter with 15 super mooks (as I would categorize them at Tier 3) as Deadly, in real terms. Where’s the tactical problem? Avoid getting swarmed by mooks who can teleport short distances? That’s not worth the real-time cost of running the combat for me.

The risk is facing 735 HP of Githyankis who can do 120d6+60 (480) HP, mod hit percentage, of damage in one round in extremely mobile hit-and-run combat. If you try to Hypnotic Pattern five of them who happen to be close together, you'd better have a terrific AC from multiclassing Forge Cleric or something, or the other ten will just hit you until you lose concentration and/or die. It's even tougher if you haven't fought Githyanki before and so don't realize that they can teleport until e.g. you blow a turn and some spell slots capturing five of them inside of a Wall of Force that they just ignore, and then hit you back for 80+ HP of damage.

It's not an unsolveable problem, but it's tougher than other ways the DM could spend the equivalent XP budget. It's tougher in most ways than a CR 20 Nightwalker, for example, which basically can't do anything but die if you just toss a Confusion spell on it.

Why isn’t the Gish with the Dragon leading them? Why invite defeat in detail?

From a roleplaying perspective, because the Gish with the Dragon is more of a special-forces/recon type, and the Githyanki Warriors are garrison troops. There's hundreds of Githyanki Warriors to each Githyanki Gish. Could they potentially link up during the adventure so the players wind up facing both at the same time? Sure, if things go sour. But in the context of the adventure I had in mind, it doesn't make sense for the Gish to bring along dozens of regular troops on his manhunt--they'd just slow him down. (If he locates the PCs and can pin them in place he can always go requisition some troops somewhere, which is how the link-up might happen.)

From a game mastering perspective, a certain amount of inviting defeat in detail is expected. You might as well ask why it's four to six encounters instead of one giant encounter against 30 Githyanki, a Gish, a Young Red Dragon, four Frost Giants, an Abominable Yeti, six Neogis, six Umber Hulks, a Nightwalker, and a hobgoblin platoon. It's the DM's job to think up scenarios where the PCs have the chance to do interesting things without getting squished like a bug. One giant encounter is sometimes justified for military scenarios, but not in the urban multi-sided MacGuffin race I had in mind when I wrote that list of encounters.

Why didn’t I (as DM) provide a boss for them to potentially negotiate with? I’m much better improvising motivations for single NPCs, so I almost always include bosses with mooks.

Eh. One of the Githyanki Warriors is probably the squad leader, but it sounds like you're talking about the ultimate boss. Their ultimate boss has hundreds or thousands of Githyanki Warriors--why would the Supreme Commander be onscreen with only a platoon of Githyanki Warriors with him? He's not part of the scenario I was envisioning.

An encounter with a Drow guard force might start with 20 Drow, 2 Elite Warriors and a Mage, and escalate from there, with reinforcements like 2 Drow mages and a Stone Golem (flying and hasted by the two mages).

Yeah, that's fine. But it's laughable that you apparently consider this a tougher fight than 15 Githyanki. There's just no comparison, especially if most of your mages are spending their concentration and actions just buffing Stone Golems. One Stone Golem with Haste and Fly does approximately as much damage as 3 Githyanki Warriors (details depend on AC) and is arguably less mobile (higher speed but more trouble penetrating barriers, is essentially neutralized by a single high-AC PC doing grapple/prone), and more brittle (hit the AC 15 (+5), 45-HP Drow Mages hard enough and the golem falls out of the sky and/or loses Haste and therefore a round of actions). They're both doable fights but the Stone Golem and mages aren't contributing as much to the difficulty as you seem to think.

BTW, Drow Mages have crummy Con saves and only 45 HP. A Fireball that wipes out some drow footmen and breaks the concentration of and heavily wounds a Drow Mage is worth it.

I will note that for quite some time the majority of my Tier 3 players were DMs for other tables on other nights, and I made a point of never turning down or even discouraging any AL legal optimized builds, so my disconnect between DMG “Deadly” and players actually breaking a sweat may be higher than some.

Someone playing an Elemonk at my table would likely get far more mileage out of Fly, or Gaseous Form than Fireball.

Granted. It's a playstyle difference. I bet you don't even do the Drow squad scenario very often--I'm betting it's rare (less than 1/3 of encounters) for your players to be outnumbered by 2:1 by the monsters.

[Zuras]

The risk is facing 735 HP of Githyankis who can do 120d6+60 (480) HP, mod hit percentage, of damage in one round in extremely mobile hit-and-run combat. If you try to Hypnotic Pattern five of them who happen to be close together, you'd better have a terrific AC from multiclassing Forge Cleric or something, or the other ten will just hit you until you lose concentration and/or die. It's even tougher if you haven't fought Githyanki before and so don't realize that they can teleport until e.g. you blow a turn and some spell slots capturing five of them inside of a Wall of Force that they just ignore, and then hit you back for 80+ HP of damage.

It's not an unsolveable problem, but it's tougher than other ways the DM could spend the equivalent XP budget. It's tougher in most ways than a CR 20 Nightwalker, for example, which basically can't do anything but die if you just toss a Confusion spell on it.

Granted. It's a playstyle difference. I bet you don't even do the Drow squad scenario very often--I'm betting it's rare (less than 1/3 of encounters) for your players to be outnumbered by 2:1 by the monsters.

Ah, you misunderstand me. It's not that killing 15 CR 3 creatures isn't hard, or at least time-consuming, it's just not tactically or dramatically interesting to me for the amount of time it will take to run. Literally the only tactical question I see there is "can we keep them from ganging up on us?", which isn't much different from fighting 15 kobolds at 2nd level.

The flying Drow Mages, on the other hand, can send in the Stone Golem into the fight while chucking fireballs from beyond counterspell range, and (in the actual battle, at least) then hiding behind stalactites in the ceiling at the end of their turns, forcing the PCs to either ready an action to shoot them or try flying up themselves, allowing interesting complications to ensue, like the GWM Fighter getting his Fly spell dispelled and falling to the bottom of the cavern after he took out the first mage. Lots of additional complications ensued eventually (they ended up facing the entire contents of the drow fort in about 3 waves, and the warlock got to use Soul Cage to eavesdrop on the enemy plans when they organized the final and largest wave).

In any event--yes, less than a third of the encounters I design outnumber the party by more than 2x, at least the ones that I expect will result in combat. Instead of 20 Orcs to threaten a Level 4 party, I'd probably go with 6 orcs, 2 orc berserkers, a blade of Ilneval and an Eye of Gruumsh for the same approximate adjusted XP. Building reasonable lineups of units and running them with strong but monster appropriate tactics is one of the fun things I enjoy about DMing. I play with veteran power-gamers, and only manage to push them to the danger zone about one time in three, but the times when things work are pretty epic. Granted, players have a very different appreciation for how threatened their characters are, so they probably felt pushed more often.

TLDR--combat with lots of units takes a long time. If I'm going to run that kind of combat, it's either going to be an epic fight or because the PCs screwed up and alerted the entire enemy base to their presence.

[MaxWilson]

Ah, you misunderstand me. It's not that killing 15 CR 3 creatures isn't hard, or at least time-consuming, it's just not tactically or dramatically interesting to me for the amount of time it will take to run. Literally the only tactical question I see there is "can we keep them from ganging up on us?", which isn't much different from fighting 15 kobolds at 2nd level.

Ah, then I see it differently. That fight is interesting because of questions like "if we Dash away at 60'/round while leaving one guy limping behind at 40'/round, can we tempt the Gith into converging on him in Fireball formation?" Especially if the gith are initially converging on the party from different directions. The interesting questions are about timing and geometry and deception, and to a lesser extent about things like "which spell to concentrate on?" and "do you think there are any more githyanki incoming from a different approach vector?"

As far as dramatic interest goes, there's also plenty of stuff to roleplay with. You've got a bunch of highly-intelligent militaristic immortal fanatics, and if you want to knock some of them out and turn them into your patsies via Modify Memory or Alter Self + infiltraton, go right ahead. Maybe you can steal some of their info about the MacGuffin that way.

So it's already interesting, and I just don't see how adding a couple of fragile mages supporting a flying, Hasted Stone Golem improves anything. Stone Golems are about as boring as they come.

The flying Drow Mages, on the other hand, can send in the Stone Golem into the fight while chucking fireballs from beyond counterspell range, and (in the actual battle, at least) then hiding behind stalactites in the ceiling at the end of their turns, forcing the PCs to either ready an action to shoot them or try flying up themselves, allowing interesting complications to ensue, like the GWM Fighter getting his Fly spell dispelled and falling to the bottom of the cavern after he took out the first mage. Lots of additional complications ensued eventually (they ended up facing the entire contents of the drow fort in about 3 waves, and the warlock got to use Soul Cage to eavesdrop on the enemy plans when they organized the final and largest wave).

Nah, I see the Stone Golem getting locked down immediately by grapple/prone or spells (Dispel Magic is an easy and obvious pick which interacts destructively with both Haste and Flying) while the Drow Mages get killed to death by Sharpshooters from beyond Fireball range, or at best get Fireballed to death from Fireball range. If total cover is available the battle is more interesting, but mostly because of the individual drow soldiers and not the fragile drow mages. It's not a completely boring battle and I'm sure the players would enjoy it as a change of pace, but it's very brittle and liable to turn into a one-sided curbstomp of the drow. BTW, if the drow mages are flying too, now you've got all three drow mages spending concentration on Fly/Haste, and to me at least that seems more boring than tossing a few Evard's Black Tentacles or Summon Greater Demon spells that the party has to respond to.

In any event--yes, less than a third of the encounters I design outnumber the party by more than 2x, at least the ones that I expect will result in combat. Instead of 20 Orcs to threaten a Level 4 party, I'd probably go with 6 orcs, 2 orc berserkers, a blade of Ilneval and an Eye of Gruumsh for the same approximate adjusted XP. Building reasonable lineups of units and running them with strong but monster appropriate tactics is one of the fun things I enjoy about DMing. I play with veteran power-gamers, and only manage to push them to the danger zone about one time in three, but the times when things work are pretty epic. Granted, players have a very different appreciation for how threatened their characters are, so they probably felt pushed more often.

Yeah, playstyle difference. If you've got 7 PCs and 6 orcs, 2 orc berserkers (Orogs I presume), a Blade of Ilneval, and an Eye of Gruumsh, no wonder Fireball doesn't look particularly attractive. You can just kill them all with weapon attacks. (With only 4 PCs that's a reasonably interesting encounter and similar to one I would use too, but then, with only 4 PCs, I don't know why you wouldn't want to use AoEs if you've got them because you ARE outnumbered 2:1.)

TLDR--combat with lots of units takes a long time. If I'm going to run that kind of combat, it's either going to be an epic fight or because the PCs screwed up and alerted the entire enemy base to their presence.

I strongly agree with this part. I can handle 15 enemies without much problem, but 30 is a stretch, and yet by the standards of the gameworld 30 is also quite small--I'm always working on my tools to make large combats faster to run because I think they are important, especially at high level.

[Asisreo1]

I find mob combat sufficient as it lets you think of each enemy as a "platoon" of roughly 8 creatures. Since they're melee monks, they'd be good to surround and pound even the fighters. Makes it much faster, too.

They probably won't yield until half their forces are gone, roughly 2 platoons worth of enemies. They'd think they're okay since they have you outnumbered but when you defeat half and show little sign of defeat, they'd probably realize you're just too powerful and they'd flee.

[MaxWilson]

I find mob combat sufficient as it lets you think of each enemy as a "platoon" of roughly 8 creatures. Since they're melee monks, they'd be good to surround and pound even the fighters. Makes it much faster, too.

They probably won't yield until half their forces are gone, roughly 2 platoons worth of enemies. They'd think they're okay since they have you outnumbered but when you defeat half and show little sign of defeat, they'd probably realize you're just too powerful and they'd flee.

Note: Githzerai are monks, Githyanki are more like fighter/mages. They'd be more likely to surround you if you looked like you were trying to flee (so they could threaten opportunity attacks). If you're standing and fighting I'd judge that their standard military doctrine is to avoid Fireball Formation and for most of the Githyanki instead to strafe you: run in, attack a couple of times, Misty Step 30' away, at least for the first couple of rounds. AoEs are just too ubiquitous in 5E-world not to expect them, especially for a culture that grew up fighting mind flayers.

If they do decide to flee they probably have a pre-planned exit strategy (like Misty Step + Dashing away in all directions, in pairs) to ensure that someone reports this formidable enemy back to higher command.

[Asisreo1]

Note: Githzerai are monks, Githyanki are more like fighter/mages. They'd be more likely to surround you if you looked like you were trying to flee (so they could threaten opportunity attacks). If you're standing and fighting I'd judge that their standard military doctrine is to avoid Fireball Formation and for most of the Githyanki instead to strafe you: run in, attack a couple of times, Misty Step 30' away, at least for the first couple of rounds. AoEs are just too ubiquitous in 5E-world not to expect them, especially for a culture that grew up fighting mind flayers.

If they do decide to flee they probably have a pre-planned exit strategy (like Misty Step + Dashing away in all directions, in pairs) to ensure that someone reports this formidable enemy back to higher command.

Surround & pound is a good tactic for any melee fighter. It's not about the opportunity attacks, it's about limiting your movement. 8 enemies around a medium creature locks out all of their movement option (since they can't move through a hostile creature's space).

[Zuras]

I just don't see how adding a couple of fragile mages supporting a flying, Hasted Stone Golem improves anything. Stone Golems are about as boring as they come.

Nah, I see the Stone Golem getting locked down immediately by grapple/prone or spells (Dispel Magic is an easy and obvious pick which interacts destructively with both Haste and Flying) while the Drow Mages get killed to death by Sharpshooters from beyond Fireball range, or at best get Fireballed to death from Fireball range. If total cover is available the battle is more interesting, but mostly because of the individual drow soldiers and not the fragile drow mages. It's not a completely boring battle and I'm sure the players would enjoy it as a change of pace, but it's very brittle and liable to turn into a one-sided curbstomp of the drow. BTW, if the drow mages are flying too, now you've got all three drow mages spending concentration on Fly/Haste, and to me at least that seems more boring than tossing a few Evard's Black Tentacles or Summon Greater Demon spells that the party has to respond to.
.

Why wouldn’t one Drow Mage up cast Fly and cover both his allies (Golem and Mage)? Also, you make the Golem a stone spider with Golem stats and give it spider climb, to keep things interesting. Yes, it’s just a speedbump, but your spellcasters might actually cast more than two spells besides Shield before dying.

I don’t normally try to use concentration spells in Tier 3 that rely on saves. Paladins, man, always ruining your day.

[MaxWilson]

Why wouldn’t one Drow Mage up cast Fly and cover both his allies (Golem and Mage)? Also, you make the Golem a stone spider with Golem stats and give it spider climb, to keep things interesting. Yes, it’s just a speedbump, but your spellcasters might actually cast more than two spells besides Shield before dying.

I don’t normally try to use concentration spells in Tier 3 that rely on saves. Paladins, man, always ruining your day.

Spoiler: Zuras's Drow fight

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Because you said they came in waves, so you clearly can't have one Fly spell covering all three of them plus the Golem. Drow Mage #1 was already in combat when mages #2 and #3 are casting Haste and Fly. Therefore if all three mages are flying around the stalactites, mage #1 must be using a separate Fly spell.

Do we both agree that the scenario gets more interesting if the mages spend concentration offensively instead of on buffing the Stone Golem + fragile selves with Haste and Fly?

A spider stone golem is still pretty boring, basically just a sack of easily-neutralized HP, and raises the question of why you bothered to cast Fly on it.

Paladin Auras are nice but come with an automatic downside: they only work when you're in Fireball Formation with the Paladin. Especially with the seven players at your table, there's always going to be someone who is either not near the paladin, or else someone who fails their DC 14ish save even with the +5 aura bonus because all seven PCs were in the AoE. And for a spell like Evard's Black Tentacles, you don't get repeat saves every round--you have to burn actions on an ability check instead. Meanwhile all the drow are shooting at you with advantage.

PCs are still going to win the fight, but nuking the paladin's little bunch of groupies if he has one is a worthy use of concentration.

Anyway, now we know why Elemonks as written don't work well at your table: playstyle. Enough about the whys and details of specific fights.