4-elements Monk

[MaxWilson]

Fulfilling the fantasy requires that the abilities feel effective relative to the rest of the party. If you are in a 3 PC group with a Champion Fighter and a Life Cleric, you’ll feel fine.

If the party Wizard casts Dragon’s Breath on their familiar and it proceeds to do the same 3d6 fire damage three times over the next three rounds, you may feel a little underpowered. If the two of you wanted to work together, the Wizard could even Dragonbreath you while you use your Ki on patient Defense and close with the orcs to maximize the number caught in the damage cone.

Being a decent monk who can periodically act like a bad wizard when desired doesn’t match my fantasy of being an element-bender.

I'm not familiar with anime. Can you tell me why your fantasy of being an element-bender needs to be a monk at all, instead of a wizard? Surely there are some aspects that the monk is already satisfying better than the owl familiar.

That doesn't mean the monk couldn't be improved via additional discipline options (which honestly should be easy: DM just has to whitelist the spells and give a ki cost for each), but I'm interested in knowing how much would be enough for your fantasy. Do you even need Extra Attack and Stunning Strike, for instance? If Extra Attack is needed, would a Bladesinger fit your ideal element-bender fantasy better than a monk would?

[Asisreo1]

Fulfilling the fantasy requires that the abilities feel effective relative to the rest of the party. If you are in a 3 PC group with a Champion Fighter and a Life Cleric, you’ll feel fine.

If the party Wizard casts Dragon’s Breath on their familiar and it proceeds to do the same 3d6 fire damage three times over the next three rounds, you may feel a little underpowered. If the two of you wanted to work together, the Wizard could even Dragonbreath you while you use your Ki on patient Defense and close with the orcs to maximize the number caught in the damage cone.

Being a decent monk who can periodically act like a bad wizard when desired doesn’t match my fantasy of being an element-bender.

Again, stop comparing yourself to the wizard. You can't be both equally good as a wizard and an equally good monk.

The wizard is a double-downed spellcaster. Without their spellcasting trait, they're pretty much nothing. The wizard needs stronger spells and the ability to cast more because without that, they're literally the weakest class. If they're in an antimagic field, if they get counterspelled, if they get dispel magiced, they become useless for the round. They have so limited defensive option, they have so limited hp, they have so limited AC, if they're put in an unfavorable position with a melee fighter, they're getting rocked.

Not you, not the 4-elemonk. You're a third-caster casting on a short rest resource with spell-progression of a half-caster and the defensive abilities to go in a toe-to-toe melee with some of the baddest melee NPC's like a giant if you must.

But just stop trying to compare across classes, different toolsets.

You're not a wizard, you're not an eldritch knight, you're not a sorcerer or a druid. You're a 4-elemonk and you need to understand that your role isn't for your spells to compete with fullcasters.

Your role isn't to be a decent wizard. You're goal is to be an excellent monk. And with these new tools, you'll make an amazing monk.

[Zuras]

I'm not familiar with anime. Can you tell me why your fantasy of being an element-bender needs to be a monk at all, instead of a wizard? Surely there are some aspects that the monk is already satisfying better than the owl familiar.

That doesn't mean the monk couldn't be improved via additional discipline options (which honestly should be easy: DM just has to whitelist the spells and give a ki cost for each), but I'm interested in knowing how much would be enough for your fantasy. Do you even need Extra Attack and Stunning Strike, for instance? If Extra Attack is needed, would a Bladesinger fit your ideal element-bender fantasy better than a monk would?

A properly built UA Mystic using a mix of Wu Jen and Immortal features does everything I want from an element bender, actually.

[Asisreo1]

A properly built UA Mystic using a mix of Wu Jen and Immortal features does everything I want from an element bender, actually.

Couldn't you go druid if you just wanted mastery of the elements, no monk-ness involved? Thunderwave, fog cloud, heat metal, flame blade, gust of wind, call lightning, wind wall.

If you just wanted to be an elemental spellcaster with non of the monk benefits, why don't you?

[Amechra]

I'm not familiar with anime. Can you tell me why your fantasy of being an element-bender needs to be a monk at all, instead of a wizard? Surely there are some aspects that the monk is already satisfying better than the owl familiar.

That doesn't mean the monk couldn't be improved via additional discipline options (which honestly should be easy: DM just has to whitelist the spells and give a ki cost for each), but I'm interested in knowing how much would be enough for your fantasy. Do you even need Extra Attack and Stunning Strike, for instance? If Extra Attack is needed, would a Bladesinger fit your ideal element-bender fantasy better than a monk would?

Using the word "bender" implies very heavily that their fantasy is informed by Avatar: the Last Airbender and Avatar: The Legend of Korra, where the visuals and lore for elemental manipulation are based on martial arts.

This is a pretty good example of what they're probably thinking of.

[LudicSavant]

But you're not fulfilling the fantasy of a sniper. You're fulfilling the fantasy of a trained martial artist that uses their mystic connection to the elements to supernaturally enhance their abilities, like The Last Airbender.

If you want to be a sniper, there's other options, though.

By the same principle that simply having a long ranged weapon is not sufficient on its own to nail the fantasy of being a sniper, being able to punch things and use elemental abilities is not sufficient on its own to nail the fantasy of being Aang or the like. It takes more than just those surface-level elements.

Nobody is saying that they want the Four Elements Monk to fill the fantasy of being a sniper. That is just... totally missing the point.

[Garfunion]

To be honest after reading through this thread. If anyone wants to fill the role of an elemental bender, I would suggest re-skinning the Sun Soul Monk. Choose your element and replace all the damage type to appropriate elemental damage chosen.

However with all the variant versions of elemental benders out there (vine bending, lava bending, sparky boom boom bending, metal bending, and etc), the druid would be a better option. Perhaps creating a Druid archetype that provides Monk like features, Including using your wild shape as a form of avatar state.

[Asisreo1]

Wow that is... completely missing the point. It's an analogy.

In the same way that simply having a long ranged weapon is not sufficient to nail the fantasy of being a sniper on its own, being able to punch things and use fire abilities is not sufficient to nail the fantasy of being Aang or the like.

Nobody is saying that they want the Four Elements Monk to fill the fantasy of being a sniper. -_-

But you have all the tools. Fire, water, earth, wind. And you get them at the offset with elemental attunement. You can make fire dance, create weapons of ice and stone, light flames at your whim, create caltrops, anything you can imagine crudely made from all 4 elements are able to be made from level 3.

You have unbroken air, gusts of wind, shape of flowing water, shatter, cone of cold, clench of the north wind. You're exaggerating just to put your point across.

It's not for everybody but it's all but weak

[Zuras]

Couldn't you go druid if you just wanted mastery of the elements, no monk-ness involved? Thunderwave, fog cloud, heat metal, flame blade, gust of wind, call lightning, wind wall.

If you just wanted to be an elemental spellcaster with non of the monk benefits, why don't you?

The simplest PHB legal way to shore up the 4E monk’s worst shortcomings is indeed to take Magic Initiate: Druid, with Absorb Element as your 1st Level spell and Shape Water, Control Flames or Mold Earth as your cantrips.

As to why be a monk rather than a full caster specializing in elemental spells, the archetype I believe we’re attempting to create is a warrior who uses speed, skill and mastery of the elements to prevail in combat rather than raw strength and mastery of weapons. The Mystic can support it by burning additional resources for buffing, or you can put it on the Monk chassis but do a better job of integrating the elemental features and provide more at-will options.

[Nifft]

Nobody is saying that they want the Four Elements Monk to fill the fantasy of being a sniper. That is just... totally missing the point.

You are absolutely correct.


However, now that you've brought it up, I wonder about a different 4 elements...

Sniper: the element of surprise!
Scribe: the elements of style!
Sneak: the criminal element!
Stove: the heating element!

[MaxWilson]

Using the word "bender" implies very heavily that their fantasy is informed by Avatar: the Last Airbender and Avatar: The Legend of Korra, where the visuals and lore for elemental manipulation are based on martial arts.

This is a pretty good example of what they're probably thinking of.

I watched the clip and I'm still a little confused why it needs to be a monk at all. She throws maybe two punches, which he blocks, but for the most part it looks like you could play a bog-standard Evoker and fulfill a large part of the fantasy--in fact you'd probably be more frustrated with the lack of cool elemental spells like "cage of Ice" and "flying water skateboard" (or whatever that thing was) than with the lack of martial arts. Just ask the DM if your somatic and verbal spell components can be flavored as resembling martial arts.

Basically it sounds like elemental benders are more closely related to wu jen than to elemental monks. If you gave elemental monks enough powers to fulfill the wu jen fantasy they'd be overpowered by getting all of the monk stuff for free.

[Asisreo1]

The simplest PHB legal way to shore up the 4E monk’s worst shortcomings is indeed to take Magic Initiate: Druid, with Absorb Element as your 1st Level spell and Shape Water, Control Flames or Mold Earth as your cantrips.

As to why be a monk rather than a full caster specializing in elemental spells, the archetype I believe we’re attempting to create is a warrior who uses speed, skill and mastery of the elements to prevail in combat rather than raw strength and mastery of weapons. The Mystic can support it by burning additional resources for buffing, or you can put it on the Monk chassis but do a better job of integrating the elemental features and provide more at-will options.

But I fail to see how the 4-elemonk fails this archetype. You get elements, you get martial arts, you get speed. But what everyone wants isn't something new, everyone just wants a buff because it seems weak to them. Because their playstyle was never a third-caster, so they can't get into their mindset.

People never play the class but call for buffs like Ki point cost reduction, spell options, not because they've seen firsthand if they are troublesome but because they're off-put.

You guys are off-put by 2Ki points an action when you have 3 in the tank, even though you'd only get to do flurry of blows as your other damaging Ki spent at that level.

You're off-put by the lack of options when there's alot of options for a monk's action, bonus action, stunning strike, reaction. But because those options aren't in the list of spells, they put you off.

This is most likely a relic of 4e, where everyone was expected to be very similar to each other, or 3-3.5e where if you didn't compete with spellcasters, you didn't compete at all.

But I'm telling you that the buffs presented so far doesn't solve the problem you're experiencing without becoming just a half-caster. It just feels nice because bigger numbers go bang.

[Zuras]

So I've recently started in a new game playing a Monk and have been considering, for largely RP reasons, of going for the Way of 4-Elements. The campaign is heavily influenced by irish/celtic mythology and my character is loosely based on the style of the hero Cuchulain, which Monk fits well, I think. Add to that a background where he was raised/trained by a Giant (of the mystical, demi-god type, rather than the "just a big dude" D&D type) and his wife; a mountain Fey/Goddess (who was subsequently eaten by said Giant/husband) and that's where this character is at; looking for revenge for the devouring of his foster mum/lover (yeah, we got some Oedipal overtones going on here too).

Anyways, I digress. The point being; this guy is heading for 4-Elements Monk for reasons, so I wanted to discuss/ask advice on some of the options available. So let's get to it;

3rd Level
- Fist of Unbroken Air vs. Water Whip. On the surface, these two abilities look very similar; 3d10 damage, +1d10/extra Ki point spent, push/pull, prone effect. Much of a muchness, right? Except Water Whip is a Bonus Action while Unbroken Air is an Action. That's something I've overlooked since, uh, forever; straight up never noticed it. That's a game-changer. I mean, ok, it's 2 Ki compared to 1 for a Flurry, but it's 3d10 (avg.16) damage and also yanks a foe up to 25ft closer to you or knocks them prone, ready to be ganked by your main weapon attack. Just looking at damage, this is directly comparable to the output of a (Tier 1/Tier 2) Flurry of Blows and gives you a similar additional "control" to that which Open Hand offers. Yes, using Water Whip forgoes the additional Stunning Strike opportunities, but you still also have that option if stuns are what you need/want. Water Whip is...actually a pretty solid ability compared to other 3rd lvl. Monk subclass features. Scratch all of that; just checked the Errata, which changed Water Whip to be an Action, which puts it straight back into the "that pretty much sucks" category, along with all the other direct damage spells/abilities 4E Monk has access to. I'd welcome any insights to the contrary.

- Shape the Flowing River. At first I overlooked this one because it seems to be predicated on having access to significant quantities of water to be any use at all. However...assuming you do have access to a decent body of water/ice, it's actually pretty damned good considering the level you have access to it. I think it's worth reiterating that this is a feature you can get at 3rd level. Functionally, albeit situationally, this is a Wall of Ice style ability that can also be used to bridge rivers, create pits or difficult terrain that also forces Dex saves vs. being knocked prone, or anything your imagination can conjure...you can't directly damage or trap a creature with it, but you can shape ice capable of damaging or trapping a creature. It's not limited by duration or concentration either; once you turn the water to ice, it's ice. At least until it melts. Ice can be scary lethal, especially when you get to shape it (and I quote) "in any manner you desire". As a result of this lack of
Don't forget the utility of this ability either; it doesn't create magical ice, limited by the strictures of a spell description, it turns water to ice (or vice versa) and that has all sorts of function that doesn't necessarily rely on having a massive quantity to hand. Break a lock, shatter stone, freeze a sword in its scabbard, to name just a few things. Note also that this ability is not limited by line of sight or weight or anything else; it's only limited by area and the physical properties of water. If you like Minor Illusion for its utility, a clever player should also see the incredible potential in this.

6th level
For no apparent reason, the options here are super limited; take a 3rd level one, one that does basically the same thing as Stunning Strike or a sucky direct damage one that isn't significantly better than the 3rd lvl options. Tough one. I may just take Water Whip here anyway and stick to a watery theme.

11th level
Let's face it. It's Fly. I like Gaseous Form a lot and I may still go for it for flavour reasons, but Fly is the strong choice here. Right?

17th level
As solely damage dealing spells, Cone of Cold and Wall of Fire just aren't cutting the cheese at this level. Stoneskin could be a decentish choice if it were effective against magical attacks, but it's not. So that leaves Wall of Stone. It's no Wall of Force or Forcecage, but it's still pretty solid (pun intended). I'd appreciate any tips on using it.

I know it's not considered the best Monk subclass, but this will be my first Monk and would appreciate any advice. Cheers.

I doubt anyone with a strong opinion on the Way of the Four Elements is going to be swayed either way by this point in the discussion, but I wanted to summarize the pro-4E points that have been made that I agree with in light of JellyPooga's original question, even if I think, on balance, the strengths aren't enough to make the subclass worth it compared to other Monk options.

1) Extra utility from disciplines like Shape the Flowing River and Elemental Attunement give you creative options unavailable to other monks. My personal feeling is that Elemental Attunement is underpowered compared to the subsequent Elemental Evil/Xanathar's cantrips, and upgrading it from affecting a 1' cube to a 5' cube wouldn't break anything, but I have nothing bad to say about Shape the Flowing River except five disciplines known is too few.

2) Your normal attacks and Stunning Strike target AC and Con saves, and additional combat options that target other saves are valuable. In my experience high Con enemies in plate mail with bad Dex saves are bigger problems than humanoids with bad Wis saves, so Water Whip is far better than Hold Person, but the principle is valid in both cases.

3) Monks have no AoE capability in their core class. Personally I think the cost/benefit of the available AoEs aren't worth it till you can get Fireball and Cone of Cold, but the option is there, and may be valuable if your party is otherwise low on AoE options.

4) Monk ranged capability is sub-par. It's good enough to be a valid option rather than a glaring weak point, but that's it. 4E monks add multiple ways to attack at range or otherwise deal with flying enemies (knocking them prone or flying yourself, then stunning them).

5) At higher levels you get some handy control spells. I have nothing bad to say about Wall of Fire and Wall of Stone. Even in Tier 3 & 4 play they will often be worth the ki expenditure.

6) At higher levels you get some great mobility spells. Fly and Gaseous Form are awesome and work well with the monk stuff you do.

7) Range: Self spells often work much better on a 1/2 or 1/3 caster than on a Wizard or Sorcerer. The 4E monk admittedly has nothing as good as Blur is on an Eldritch Knight, but you can get much better positioning for Gust of Wind and Thunderwave while risking less than a Wizard or Druid.


Given these potential strengths, my advice to JellyPooga, or anyone playing a 4E Monk, would be:

Take Water Whip over Fist of Unbroken Air. Enemies with bad Str saves probably don't have great Con saves either, but plenty of things with high AC and Con have bad Dex saves. The designers even acknowledge this, given that FoUA both shoves and knocks prone while WW merely gives you a choice of effects.

Unless your campaign in in a desert, Shape the Flowing River is a strong choice and will let you do things no other party member can.

Gust of Wind is a surprisingly strong option, since it lasts a whole minute. It's very situational, but that may be a plus, since you won't be tempted to use it in situations where it isn't a strong option.

Fangs of the Fire Snake is the only discipline that provides the elemental effects and action economy I would prefer out of the class. It's a good choice if other party members are already focusing on control options but you are light on nova potential.

I don't think any of the AoE options besides Fireball, Wall of Fire and Cone of Cold are worth their opportunity cost, so I wouldn't bother taking them unless the rest of the party was very light on AoEs.

To get back to arguing (which, let's face it, is what I'm here for), all the nice stuff you can get from the disciplines just isn't as good as what you can get from the other subclass choices, and *in my opinion* if your subclass choice is intended to help you out by providing more options, rather than more raw power, maybe it should provide more than one option at level up, especially given that the other caster-like subclasses get five or six extra things to do (2-3 cantrips and 3 spells).

As I've stated before, my experience watching others play 4E monks has been negative, especially in tiers 1 & 2. I'm open to arguments that the players running the 4E monks at my tables were doing it wrong, or that the tables I play at have a play style that disfavors the 4E monk (maybe we don't get enough short rests, which leads me to value always-on abilities and efficient uses of ki). If so, maybe try to argue about the specifics, rather than just telling me that my actual table experiences are irrelevant simply because it doesn't match your experiences or opinions.

[Specter]

If you're going down the min/max road, 4 Elements is not good, period. What you need to take away from the subclass is versatility. If your buddies are facing an army, you can just fly above the ranks and go stun the bosses yourself. If you want to be the one to blast dozens of mooks, instead, Fireball them. Etc.

People who think that versatility is bad are the same people that think Ranger is bad because it doesn't do as much damage as the fighter.

[HiveStriker]

Fulfilling the fantasy requires that the abilities feel effective relative to the rest of the party. If you are in a 3 PC group with a Champion Fighter and a Life Cleric, you’ll feel fine.

If the party Wizard casts Dragon’s Breath on their familiar and it proceeds to do the same 3d6 fire damage three times over the next three rounds, you may feel a little underpowered. If the two of you wanted to work together, the Wizard could even Dragonbreath you while you use your Ki on patient Defense and close with the orcs to maximize the number caught in the damage cone.

Being a decent monk who can periodically act like a bad wizard when desired doesn’t match my fantasy of being an element-bender.

well, you'd probably be interested in some homebrew someone posted months ago, although it was rather crude. Had lots of potential though. :)

Otherwise, to use some bits of aforementioned in a simple way, create a Fighter subclass.
- give "Ki" (change name) pool that "follows" proficiency mod, recharge on short rest.
- use N ki, minimum 1, to mimic the effect of any buff/defensive spell until the start of your next turn, appliable when you make a weapon attack. Make effects scalable with more ki, allow up to two different effects at once from level 7 onwards.
- get it to automatically learn relevant spells following the Eldricht Knight progression.

Pick up every "elemental-changing" spell (Absorb Elements, Chromatic Orb, Dragon's Breath, Elemental Weapon), and homebrew Fangs of Fire Snake as a 1st level spell, bonus action, lasting for one round, that make all weapon damage elemental although you choose the damage type.

To be clearer I envision the "1-turn effects" as is:
- Absorb Elements: damage absorption equal, per ki spent, to twice your WIS mod. All absorbed damage is stacked and released on the nex melee attack you land, or the end of your next turn, whichever happens first.
- "Elemental Damage conversion": 1 ki to make all damage elemental, 4 ki to bypass resistance against a single enemy, 6 Ki to bypass immunity against a single enemy.
- Elemental Weapon: 1ki = +1 & 1d4, 2 Ki = +2 & +2d4, 4 ki = +3 & 3d4, 6 ki = +4 & 4d4.

Also give ability to cast those spells "as regular", using 4e's cost and "Ki max per use" system (really needed to keep things balanced).
It means that this subclass will get much more mileage of Absorb Elements than a regular Eldricht Knight, will be able to get some bonus elemental damage when needed thanks to the homebrew spell and/or quick appliance of an Elemental Weapon, while still avoiding power creep thanks to the low ceiling of pool limiting any risk of nova.

Finally, of course, give it "utility elemental cantrips" from level 3 onwards. Because those are great, and thematically what better could fit? :)

A properly built UA Mystic using a mix of Wu Jen and Immortal features does everything I want from an element bender, actually.

That's not surprising to me, UA Mystic is notoriously broken. ^^

If you're going down the min/max road, 4 Elements is not good, period. What you need to take away from the subclass is versatility. If your buddies are facing an army, you can just fly above the ranks and go stun the bosses yourself. If you want to be the one to blast dozens of mooks, instead, Fireball them. Etc.

People who think that versatility is bad are the same people that think Ranger is bad because it doesn't do as much damage as the fighter.

That sentence is devoid of any meaning really.
1. Optimization is always geared towards some goal. If you don't define the goal, you can't evaluate.
2. If you just "compute values" of 4e's disciplines that have measurable benefits, 4E is *very* competitive. Confer my above posts.
3. It's otherwise very hard to evaluate the "min/max benefit" of abilities which true value will be heavily dependant on context (like prone effects, teleportation, fear effects)...

You incidentally demonstrate yourself with your examples: there are some (many) situations where 4E will prove having been the optimal choice, the "min/max" choice to use your words, because he can the "the max" where others would be reduced to "the min".

It's just a matter of "do I want to double down on my usual Monkiness strengths" (Drunken Master, Kensei, Open Hand), "or would I prefer to shore up / improve a particular area (resilience with Long Death, short-range and AOE with Sun Soul)", "or do I prefer being much better at spying (Shadow)"...
In summary, "do I want to be more efficient in the situations I'm great at, although I'll still suck in all other situations, or so I prefer broadening the array of situations where I can be efficient".

4E fits in all those categories. Just usualy not all at once (and certainly not before high level in that case ^^).

TL;DR: I know we both overall share the same opinion on 4e (and Ranger), but I don't agree that 4e would not be a min-max choice because imo that notion is simply meaningless when faced with real game.

[Asisreo1]

As I've stated before, my experience watching others play 4E monks has been negative, especially in tiers 1 & 2. I'm open to arguments that the players running the 4E monks at my tables were doing it wrong, or that the tables I play at have a play style that disfavors the 4E monk (maybe we don't get enough short rests, which leads me to value always-on abilities and efficient uses of ki). If so, maybe try to argue about the specifics, rather than just telling me that my actual table experiences are irrelevant simply because it doesn't match your experiences or opinions.

Well, that would require me to know how your players played the class, right? Though if I were to guess based on your complaints, they were rather reserved with their Ki usage and kept comparing themselves to the fullcaster who's entire playstyle is "Big AoE damage go boom."

[MaxWilson]

If you're going down the min/max road, 4 Elements is not good, period. What you need to take away from the subclass is versatility. If your buddies are facing an army, you can just fly above the ranks and go stun the bosses yourself. If you want to be the one to blast dozens of mooks, instead, Fireball them. Etc.

People who think that versatility is bad are the same people that think Ranger is bad because it doesn't do as much damage as the fighter.

Agreed. In addition to this, having multiple Fireballers in the party is much better than one. Per Xanathar's, at higher levels you may be fighting dozens of CR 2-3 creatures with 40-70ish HP, and one Fireball won't kill them, but two or three will. Two or three Fireballs from the wizard and the monk is much cheaper in real opportunity cost than a single Meteor Swarm from the wizard to do the same job.

And don't underestimate the monk's Shatter either. There are scenarios, even at low levels, where a Shatter is about as effective as a Fireball anyway due to fire resistance. (E.g. when you're fighting a mob of Shadows.)

[Zuras]

Well, that would require me to know how your players played the class, right? Though if I were to guess based on your complaints, they were rather reserved with their Ki usage and kept comparing themselves to the fullcaster who's entire playstyle is "Big AoE damage go boom."

Oh no, they blew all their Ki on a spell or two with minimal effect and then spent the remaining and subsequent fights with almost no ki. Like many monk players, they were seduced by the Dark Side of the monk’s mobility, and would effortlessly maneuver into the right position to blast the evil high priest off the mountain of doom with Fist of Unbroken Air, then the priest would make his save and the rest of the party would need to rescue the monk.

This was all in AL, generally with tables of 5-7 players, almost always multiple full casters. Every time it seemed like they would do better focusing on what monks are good at and stun somebody, since the full casters had the spellcasting covered.

I grant A fair bit of this might be self-fulfilling prophecy, as the players with high system mastery thought it was garbage and avoided it. I’ve heard plenty of complaints about the Ranger, but when experienced players used the class at my tables it never felt weak.

Also, I keep hearing comments about variety in the context of the 4E Monk, but you literally only get two options for most of your career (3rd-10th level), three if you trade in Elemental Attunement. That did not seem like a lot of variety to me in practice..

[MaxWilson]

Oh no, they blew all their Ki on a spell or two with minimal effect and then spent the remaining and subsequent fights with almost no ki. Like many monk players, they were seduced by the Dark Side of the monk’s mobility, and would effortlessly maneuver into the right position to blast the evil high priest off the mountain of doom with Fist of Unbroken Air, then the priest would make his save and the rest of the party would need to rescue the monk.

This was all in AL, generally with tables of 5-7 players, almost always multiple full casters. Every time it seemed like they would do better focusing on what monks are good at and stun somebody, since the full casters had the spellcasting covered.

I grant A fair bit of this might be self-fulfilling prophecy, as the players with high system mastery thought it was garbage and avoided it. I’ve heard plenty of complaints about the Ranger, but when experienced players used the class at my tables it never felt weak.

Also, I keep hearing comments about variety in the context of the 4E Monk, but you literally only get two options for most of your career (3rd-10th level), three if you trade in Elemental Attunement. That did not seem like a lot of variety to me in practice..

Yeah, that does sound partly like an AL/system mastery problem. Brittle plans attached to a weak ability. The wizard equivalent is something like "upcast Globe of Invulnerability to 9th level and then get in a fist fight with a lich" (yes, I've witnessed this multiclassed wizard/cleric, and it's not the wizard class's fault but it is super painful to watch).

I think post #28 did a good job summarizing the versatility factor, but yes, some of that doesn't really kick in until after level 11. If you plan to stop at level 10 you might not enjoy the elemonk, and I might add that before level 14 monks actually have some of the worst saving throws in the game too so you might want to just pick another class entirely.

But still, three elemental options plus six or seven warrior options really isn't bad. (Kiting, tanking, ranged weapons, Stunning Strike, Hiding/sneaking, throwing nets, grappling/proning.) When I've played elemonks I actually haven't felt limited as to quantity of options, even at low levels. They're just... not extremely powerful options.

[Asisreo1]

Also, I keep hearing comments about variety in the context of the 4E Monk, but you literally only get two options for most of your career (3rd-10th level), three if you trade in Elemental Attunement. That did not seem like a lot of variety to me in practice..

Not Variety, versatility. You're no longer a Single-Target damage dealer and when the situation arises where you go "Aw man, AoE would've been sweet." A 4-elemonk can capitalize.

[Asisreo1]

Oh no, they blew all their Ki on a spell or two with minimal effect and then spent the remaining and subsequent fights with almost no ki. Like many monk players, they were seduced by the Dark Side of the monk’s mobility, and would effortlessly maneuver into the right position to blast the evil high priest off the mountain of doom with Fist of Unbroken Air, then the priest would make his save and the rest of the party would need to rescue the monk.

If they were fighting a priest and they had to get rescued from melee as a monk, I suspect there was something else in play. Within 30ft of a spellcaster is exactly where you want to be as a monk, saving still means he takes damage and he still had to make his Concentration check. Next turn, they could strike him twice and not relent or, since there was a cliff, shove him off.

And after fighting what sounds like a miniboss, it would've been wise to short rest. If the priest wasn't really that threatening, the monk probably didn't need saving or he could've not had to use Ki points at all.

[Zuras]

Not Variety, versatility. You're no longer a Single-Target damage dealer and when the situation arises where you go "Aw man, AoE would've been sweet." A 4-elemonk can capitalize.

I agree that adding AoE capability to a mostly martial character is a net plus, but getting that as your primary benefit of a whole subclass pick seems mighty underwhelming. You can get similar results by finding a Wand of Fireball.

If you give Grog the 10th level Bear Totem Barbarian a Wand of Fireballs, how often will he be using it instead of Raging and closing to melee? 1 in 10 combats? 1 in 5?

In my actual play experience, I’ve seen multiple Arcane Tricksters with Wands of Fireball/Lightning Bolt, and while it was handy, especially with Magical Ambush giving disadvantage on saves, it was not especially powerful in Tier 3. For my Tier 3 AT, my Wand of Lightning Bolts was fighting a Gem of Seeing for my third attunement slot, and most of the time I ended up regretting picking the wand, because nasty illusions and shapeshifters are more likely to ruin your Tier 3 day than a bunch of orcs.

If they were fighting a priest and they had to get rescued from melee as a monk, I suspect there was something else in play. Within 30ft of a spellcaster is exactly where you want to be as a monk, saving still means he takes damage and he still had to make his Concentration check. Next turn, they could strike him twice and not relent or, since there was a cliff, shove him off.

And after fighting what sounds like a miniboss, it would've been wise to short rest. If the priest wasn't really that threatening, the monk probably didn't need saving or he could've not had to use Ki points at all.

The priest was an Orc, and pretty buff. The monk got knocked off the side of the mountain and was hanging on by his fingernails most of the fight. Monks using their mobility to consistently get into more trouble than they can handle is a common problem for all their subclasses, though, not just the 4E variety, but I think the 4E Monk makes it even more tempting.

[Asisreo1]

I agree that adding AoE capability to a mostly martial character is a net plus, but getting that as your primary benefit of a whole subclass pick seems mighty underwhelming. You can get similar results by finding a Wand of Fireball.

If you give Grog the 10th level Bear Totem Barbarian a Wand of Fireballs, how often will he be using it instead of Raging and closing to melee? 1 in 10 combats? 1 in 5?

It'd probably have more to do with the fact that he's not a spellcaster and can't attune to a wand of fireballs. Which a monk can't either.

If, somehow, Grog was able to cast a spell from the magic item that forced a save, Grog wouldn't have a spellcasting ability modifier and have a save DC of 12. Which Grog might find too low to be worth it.

The priest was an Orc, and pretty buff. The monk got knocked off the side of the mountain and was hanging on by his fingernails most of the fight. Monks using their mobility to consistently get into more trouble than they can handle is a common problem for all their subclasses, though, not just the 4E variety, but I think the 4E Monk makes it even more tempting.

More tempting to be in melee than a shadow monk and an open palm monk? And not equally tempting if not less so than a radiant soul? I mean, if the monk couldn't hold up to a spellcaster, then *something* was wrong. Even if they got pushed off, they could reduce fall damage by at least 20 damage which covers falling from at least 30ft.

I either think the monk wasn't as in-danger as you thought or he was built poorly as a monk in-general.

[Zuras]

It'd probably have more to do with the fact that he's not a spellcaster and can't attune to a wand of fireballs. Which a monk can't either.

If, somehow, Grog was able to cast a spell from the magic item that forced a save, Grog wouldn't have a spellcasting ability modifier and have a save DC of 12. Which Grog might find too low to be worth it.

The specific example I cited was not an idle theoretical. Totem Barbarians gain spellcasting (ritual commune w/nature) at 10th level, and the save DC for the Wand in question is set at a straight 15. Ancestral Guardian Barbarians work similarly. Actual parties I’ve seen always gave wands to the Arcane Trickster (Magical Ambush!) or Bard (save magical secrets for something else), but it’s been a possibility discussed at my tables.

[Misterwhisper]

Essentially they made them 1/3 casters maybe generous and say 1/2 casters but made them use their normal power pool to use it.

They could have just given them spell progression like an eldritch knight or arcane trickster with a focus on elemental spells and it would have been fine but they didn’t, they have them more options to use their normal Ki points as the entire subclass but didn’t give them and extra Ki to use on it.

[MadBear]

Having both played as, and played with a 4e monk, they are super disappointing. They didn't feel good the entire time I and my friends played them. This was for a variety of reasons:
1. The Ki cost was high enough, that meant you often ran out quick
2. There's no good innately flavorful options that don't burn Ki. Especially compared to a Shadow Monks, Shadow step.

If I was looking for a "fix" I'd look to find ways to add flavorful, but not Ki intensive options.

For example I'd Add 1-2 abilities at later levels that were always on options that didn't burn Ki like Shadow Step. For example

Elemental Fist (6th level): As a bonus action you can infuse your fists with the elements. Doing so allows your attacks this turn to deal an additional 1d8 damage as either fire/cold (water)/ Thunder (air)/ Force (earth). At 11th level the damage becomes 1d10, and at 17th level it becomes 1d12

on average if both attacks hit that's an additional 9 points of damage. Comparatively, if they just made their bonus unarmed strike they'd be likely doing 1d6+4 extra damage. So it's a relatively minor damage boost that's mostly there to help the player feel like they're playing their class. I'd still say this is worse then Shadow Step, because it's not as good as a free ability that gives you a teleport and advantage on your next attack. Overall it would still not be as good as using Ki to get 2 extra attacks. But it'd allow a 4E Monk to feel like their subclass is giving them an option that let's the feel like they're always on, as opposed to a plain monk who can for 1-2 turns do something interesting before returning to doing nothing.

[Asisreo1]

Having both played as, and played with a 4e monk, they are super disappointing. They didn't feel good the entire time I and my friends played them. This was for a variety of reasons:
1. The Ki cost was high enough, that meant you often ran out quick
2. There's no good innately flavorful options that don't burn Ki. Especially compared to a Shadow Monks, Shadow step.

If I was looking for a "fix" I'd look to find ways to add flavorful, but not Ki intensive options.

For example I'd Add 1-2 abilities at later levels that were always on options that didn't burn Ki like Shadow Step. For example

Elemental Fist (6th level): As a bonus action you can infuse your fists with the elements. Doing so allows your attacks this turn to deal an additional 1d8 damage as either fire/cold (water)/ Thunder (air)/ Force (earth). At 11th level the damage becomes 1d10, and at 17th level it becomes 1d12

on average if both attacks hit that's an additional 9 points of damage. Comparatively, if they just made their bonus unarmed strike they'd be likely doing 1d6+4 extra damage. So it's a relatively minor damage boost that's mostly there to help the player feel like they're playing their class. I'd still say this is worse then Shadow Step, because it's not as good as a free ability that gives you a teleport and advantage on your next attack. Overall it would still not be as good as using Ki to get 2 extra attacks. But it'd allow a 4E Monk to feel like their subclass is giving them an option that let's the feel like they're always on, as opposed to a plain monk who can for 1-2 turns do something interesting before returning to doing nothing.

So that's free damage for choosing the subclass? Free damage that other subclasses don't get? Why, then, would I choose to play an open palm monk if the 4-elemonk just outperforms completely in all respects? Sure, it's level 6 but no subclass gets extra damage for melee except for 4-elemonks anyways.

You all realize that the attack pattern for a monk is similar to a warlock. That is, quickly expended resource that comes back on a short rest. It's a feature, not a bug. Just like a warlock has EB to fall back on, the monk has their fist. At 5th level, a monk can just make 3 attacks for free. Why not just do that until you find a good opportunity for spellcasting. It's not like running out of Ki points keeps you from being a monk as usual.

Spending Ki is good. Everytime you short or long rest without spending your Ki, that Ki goes into the air, spent doing 0 damage and stunning 0 people because you kept it under lock-and-key.

Some people are anal about not spending all their resources, but those people will obviously not enjoy 4-elemonk if they lean too heavily on spellcasting.

Elemonks are designed fine, a vocal minority doesn't change that.

[Asisreo1]

The specific example I cited was not an idle theoretical. Totem Barbarians gain spellcasting (ritual commune w/nature) at 10th level, and the save DC for the Wand in question is set at a straight 15. Ancestral Guardian Barbarians work similarly. Actual parties I’ve seen always gave wands to the Arcane Trickster (Magical Ambush!) or Bard (save magical secrets for something else), but it’s been a possibility discussed at my tables.

Totem Barbarians can cast spells at level 3. But they do not have a spellcasting ability modifier and their spellcasting DC is 10 at 3rd level and 12 at 10th level unless there was some houseruling involved.

[MaxWilson]

So that's free damage for choosing the subclass? Free damage that other subclasses don't get? Why, then, would I choose to play an open palm monk if the 4-elemonk just outperforms completely in all respects? Sure, it's level 6 but no subclass gets extra damage for melee except for 4-elemonks anyways.

??? But as MadBear pointed out, because it costs your bonus action it's hardly a damage boost at all. You're giving up d6+DEX (call it 7.5) damage in order to get 2d8 (9) elemental damage, times your hit rate. At higher levels it's actually net loss! Giving up d10+5 (10.5) to get 2d8(9) is a bad deal.

I agree that adding AoE capability to a mostly martial character is a net plus, but getting that as your primary benefit of a whole subclass pick seems mighty underwhelming. You can get similar results by finding a Wand of Fireball.

You're not wrong, but 5E classes aren't balanced against magical items in the first place. A 9th level Artillerist with a Wand of Fireballs is way more powerful than an Artillerist without one.

(I still agree with you that Elemonks ought to have access to more PHB/Xanathar's spells.)

[Asisreo1]

??? But as MadBear pointed out, because it costs your bonus action it's hardly a damage boost at all. You're giving up d6+DEX (call it 7.5) damage in order to get 2d8 (9) elemental damage, times your hit rate. At higher levels it's actually net loss! Giving up d10+5 (10.5) to get 2d8(9) is a bad deal.

His suggestion scales with levels. By time you would've been doing 1d10+5 (10.5)damage, you're now doing an extra 2d12(13) damage with the feature.

But I still don't see how elemental attunement doesn't make someone feel like a master of the 4 elements without Ki costs unless they just want more damage. There isn't even a limit to how you can shape the elements or how many you can have. You can damage with them, too. Instantly if you want.

You can cause earth spikes under someone's feet, you can dive underwater with a bubble of displaced water so you can breathe, you can shape the mists into the form like an illusion, and you can cover your fists with flames.

Or did you think you couldn't do that because the feature didn't explicitly say you can?