4-elements Monk

[JellyPooga]

But I still don't see how elemental attunement doesn't make someone feel like a master of the 4 elements without Ki costs unless they just want more damage. There isn't even a limit to how you can shape the elements or how many you can have. You can damage with them, too. Instantly if you want.

You can cause earth spikes under someone's feet, you can dive underwater with a bubble of displaced water so you can breathe, you can shape the mists into the form like an illusion, and you can cover your fists with flames.

Or did you think you couldn't do that because the feature didn't explicitly say you can?

Mmmmm....Elemental Attunement makes you feel a bit more like an apprentice than a master. 1ft cube is noticable, but hardly significant. It's limited to "rough" shapes too, so for example, if you shape some mist (which has to be extant; you can't create it) to look like a bird...well, it's a bit like a cloud that sort of looks a bit like a ducky, more than a masterpiece of art. Likewise, flames on your fists aren't going to actually do anything, 1ft cube of earthern spikes are pretty unimpressive and ineffectual, etc.

It really is super limited.

[Asisreo1]

Mmmmm....Elemental Attunement makes you feel a bit more like an apprentice than a master. 1ft cube is noticable, but hardly significant. It's limited to "rough" shapes too, so for example, if you shape some mist (which has to be extant; you can't create it) to look like a bird...well, it's a bit like a cloud that sort of looks a bit like a ducky, more than a masterpiece of art. Likewise, flames on your fists aren't going to actually do anything, 1ft cube of earthern spikes are pretty unimpressive and ineffectual, etc.

It really is super limited.

But you're getting it at level 3, you're exactly an apprentice by that level. Once you're in the "Master" territory, aka tier 4, you can create walls of stone that you can run up on and shoot blasts of fire and ice and levitate by riding the air.

Flames on your fists can light your enemy's worn or carried weapons, which spells cannot.

Imagine a whole foot-long spike entering your leg from the ground, that's probably effectual and impressive especially since it's fair game for that to restrict movement.

[Zuras]

Totem Barbarians can cast spells at level 3. But they do not have a spellcasting ability modifier and their spellcasting DC is 10 at 3rd level and 12 at 10th level unless there was some houseruling involved.

Heh. I’d forgotten about casting Beast Sense at 3rd level. I’ve actually seen totem Barbarians cast Commune With Nature, but never Beast Sense, so I was thinking about 10th level. The DC is still 15 though, because it is set by the Wand itself. Magic items are inconsistent in this regard, but the Wand of Fireballs has a set DC of 15.

[Asisreo1]

Heh. I’d forgotten about casting Beast Sense at 3rd level. I’ve actually seen totem Barbarians cast Commune With Nature, but never Beast Sense, so I was thinking about 10th level. The DC is still 15 though, because it is set by the Wand itself. Magic items are inconsistent in this regard, but the Wand of Fireballs has a set DC of 15.

As for why he didn't use it constantly, that sorta lends to my point. He had the option to use it but it wasn't a necessity and without it, he was doing just fine. Same thing with the Monk's fireball.

Of course, it all depends on how many magic items you get in a campaign, but I don't think a good metric for a class is whether or not they can attune to items. A DC 15 still isn't as good as a monk's probable DC 17

But regardless, it was a nice addition to the arsenal which a monk just gets without any DM fiat.

[JellyPooga]

But you're getting it at level 3, you're exactly an apprentice by that level. Once you're in the "Master" territory, aka tier 4, you can create walls of stone that you can run up on and shoot blasts of fire and ice and levitate by riding the air.

I guess that's part of the problem; no-one really wants to be an apprentice at level 3. Other classes have completed their apprenticeships and graduated to a degree of competence that they can really call themselves whatever they are; Paladins are actualising the boons of their Oath, Warlock Patrons are gifting their protegés their Pact Boons, Wizards are already professional Diviners and Necromancers rather than mere 'wizards'. Even multiclass characters only feel like they're really taking off in that 3-6 range...Level 3 is when most characters are starting to feel like their apprenticeship is over and they're getting into truly heroic territory. Except the 4E Monk who might be feeling pretty darned Monkish, but is still fumbling with the very basics of Elementalism (or whatever you want to call it).

Not saying I agree with the sentiment, necesaarily, but I can understand the complaint.

[MaxWilson]

I guess that's part of the problem; no-one really wants to be an apprentice at level 3. Other classes have completed their apprenticeships and graduated to a degree of competence that they can really call themselves whatever they are; Paladins are actualising the boons of their Oath, Warlock Patrons are gifting their protegés their Pact Boons, Wizards are already professional Diviners and Necromancers rather than mere 'wizards'. Even multiclass characters only feel like they're really taking off in that 3-6 range...Level 3 is when most characters are starting to feel like their apprenticeship is over and they're getting into truly heroic territory. Except the 4E Monk who might be feeling pretty darned Monkish, but is still fumbling with the very basics of Elementalism (or whatever you want to call it).

Not saying I agree with the sentiment, necesaarily, but I can understand the complaint.

Personally I don't feel like a "real wizard" until I get stuff like Hypnotic Pattern and Fireball, at level 5, which is the same point the elemonk gets access to 3d8 Thunderwave and Extra Attack.

[Asisreo1]

I guess that's part of the problem; no-one really wants to be an apprentice at level 3. Other classes have completed their apprenticeships and graduated to a degree of competence that they can really call themselves whatever they are; Paladins are actualising the boons of their Oath, Warlock Patrons are gifting their protegés their Pact Boons, Wizards are already professional Diviners and Necromancers rather than mere 'wizards'. Even multiclass characters only feel like they're really taking off in that 3-6 range...Level 3 is when most characters are starting to feel like their apprenticeship is over and they're getting into truly heroic territory. Except the 4E Monk who might be feeling pretty darned Monkish, but is still fumbling with the very basics of Elementalism (or whatever you want to call it).

Not saying I agree with the sentiment, necesaarily, but I can understand the complaint.

I think that if people want to play a high-level 4-elemonk, they should play more high-level games.

[JellyPooga]

I think that if people want to play a high-level 4-elemonk, they should play more high-level games.

Which rather proves my rebuttal of your assertation that Elemental Attunement alone (not 4E as a whole) "makes someone feel like a master of the 4 elements". It doesn't; it's the Discipline of an apprentice, not a master.

[LudicSavant]

"I'm going to cast burning hands on the two orcs, doing 10 damage to both of them for a total of 20 damage. I'll then jump down this 30ft ledge and reduce all my damage using slow fall, with a cool superhero landing."

Buddy, this is level 4. Before you even get extra attack.

Buddy, this is level 4. You're expected to bring more to the table than that.

In this situation, Flurry boosts your DPR from regular punching by 4.4 per ki spent on it (more with advantage). Burning Hands boosts your DPR by 3.275 per ki point spent on it (and requires you to split the damage between two targets rather than focusing someone down).

And that's comparing to your own flurry, not the benefits of being another subclass. An Open Palm Monk's DPR benefit for flurry is higher than that (particularly when you factor in their team combos, which is pretty much the entire point of putting one in your party).

In this situation where you've convinced yourself you're being versatile and awesome, you're actually being relatively weak, narrow, and resource-inefficient.

You could have spent those 2 ki on Pass Without Trace as a Shadow Monk and given the whole party the benefit of Surprise against the 10 passive perception orcs and had them all die before they drew their weapons. Or I could have been an Open Palm Monk and just kicked that guy through the caster's Create Bonfire and off that 30 foot ledge, and then come down for a landing on their face. And both of those subclasses are more versatile at this point.

And yes, you can of course just add several more clumped orcs to raise the relative value of Burning Hands, but that doesn't really change the fact that you seem to be consistently overestimating the value of what you're doing.

But I still don't see how elemental attunement doesn't make someone feel like a master of the 4 elements without Ki costs unless they just want more damage.

But you're getting it at level 3, you're exactly an apprentice by that level. Once you're in the "Master" territory, aka tier 4

[Asisreo1]

Buddy, this is level 4. You're expected to bring more to the table than that.

In this situation, Flurry boosts your DPR from regular punching by 4.4 per ki spent on it (more with advantage). Burning Hands boosts your DPR by 3.275 per ki point spent on it (and requires you to split the damage between two targets rather than focusing someone down). Once you hit 5 that comparison is going to get even worse, and you can't switch it out until 6th level.

And that's comparing to your own flurry, not the benefits of being another subclass. An Open Palm Monk's DPR benefit for flurry is higher than that (particularly when you factor in their team combos, which is pretty much the entire point of putting one in your party).

In this situation where you've convinced yourself you're being versatile and awesome, you're actually being relatively weak and resource-inefficient.

You could have spent those 2 ki on Pass Without Trace as a Shadow Monk and given the whole party the benefit of Surprise against the 10 passive perception orcs and had them all die before they drew their weapons. Or I could have been an Open Palm Monk and just kicked that guy through the caster's Create Bonfire and off that 30 foot ledge, and then come down for a landing on their face. And both of those subclasses are more versatile at this point.

And yes, you can of course just add several more clumped orcs to raise the relative value of Burning Hands, but that doesn't really change the fact that you seem to be consistently overestimating the value of what you're doing.

Across 2 targets, burning hands are 10.5 for 5.25 damage per Ki point. Why is everyone pretending they only fight single enemies like a band of 4 goblins isn't in the starter set of D&D. In fact, it's rare for D&D modules to have solo fights at all so it's not like I'm pulling enemies out of my head.

I mean, sure, "waste" 2 Ki points casting Pass without Trace on your heavy armor paladin and...oh wait, it's almost like it depends on your campaign and group composition.

But no, both of them are not "more versatile" since a shadow monk only has the schtick of stealth and open palm monks need to be in melee at all times.

Look, man, I'm not saying 4-elemonks are as broken as the most infamous builds or as versatile as a wizard. But it fits it's niche well with a good flavor.

And are we really splitting hairs on what counts as masterful? It's obviously a matter of opinions but if you were expecting to throw chromatic walls at level 3, you just need to be reacquainted with D&D leveling system in general.

[LudicSavant]

*snip*

So... basically everything you just said is mistaken.

1) The DPR value of Burning Hands over basic attacks in the scenario you gave actually is not 5.25 per ki point, because punching doesn't do zero damage, and orcs don't have a 100% chance of failing their saves. You are leaving out vital variables like accuracy, etc.

2) No, you didn't "waste" Pass Without Trace on the heavily armored paladin. He is the very reason that PWT has value here; you ensured that he'll pass the orc's Passive Perception.

3) No, the Shadow Monk doesn't "only" have the schtick of stealth, they can also do things like Silence casters, or use Minor Illusion, or grant Darkvision to a VHuman, and so forth. And as for the Open Palm Monk, versatility isn't just being able to do something from 15 feet away instead of 5, it's also the variety of things you can pull off at said range.

Edit: Incidentally, I forgot to account for the possibility of an ASI stat boost at level 4, in which case the comparison would be even worse for Burning Hands.

Normal Attack (18 Dex) vs AC 13: 10.85
Flurry (18 Dex) vs AC 13: 15.525 (4.675 per ki over "normal attacks with the choice to boost Dex first.")
Burning Hands (16 Wis) vs +1 Dex save and 2 targets: 16.05 (2.6 per ki over "normal attacks with the choice to boost Dex first")
Burning Hands (18 Wis) vs +1 Dex save and 2 targets: 16.3 (2.725 per ki over "normal attacks with the choice to boost Dex first")

Which incidentally highlights another opportunity cost here, if you decide to invest in Wis first instead of Dex for the sake of your spells.

It also highlights that there's a good chance you could likely have just killed an orc outright (thereby reducing their action economy).

[Asisreo1]

1) The DPR value of Burning Hands over basic attacks in the scenario you gave actually is not 5.25 per ki point, because punching doesn't do zero damage, and orcs don't have a 100% chance of failing their saves. You are leaving out vital variables like accuracy, etc.

Okay then, let's lab it out. Assuming you have a +3 Dex and +2 Wis, your save DC would be 12 at that level. Orcs have a 50% chance to dodge burning hands. Meanwhile, your attack rolls are +5, meaning you have a 65% chance to hit. So, for your Ki point, you have 1d4+3 (5) using flurry of blows. Let's now take into account this miss rate into this: (5*.65)=3.25. Okay, but now we take into account burning hands average of 3d6 (10.5) damage times 2 because you wouldn't be using an AoE against a single target. Plus, they can save for half, which is 5 damage per Ki point even if they both save.

I wanted to check my math, so I used your calculator. It gave a 15.5 DPR, which is 7.25 damage per Ki. More than twice the Ki spent on Flurry of blows.

2) No, you didn't "waste" Pass Without Trace on the heavily armored paladin. He is the very reason that PWT has value here; you ensured that he'll pass the orc's Passive Perception.

Sure, the Ki points were effective but doesn't that mean you're "out of Ki points" using that technique. You can't do it again.

But obviously it was worth it for the surprise, I agree. I think shadow monks should be able to do cool sneaky stuff like that. It's just a different playstyle of monk. Maybe that's optimal for ogres with low perception but you might be fighting a bunch of Sahuagins or maybe the goblins got the jump on you.

3) No, the Shadow Monk doesn't "only" have the schtick of stealth, they can also do things like Silence casters, or use Minor Illusion, or grant Darkvision to a VHuman, and so forth. And as for the Open Palm Monk, versatility isn't just being able to do something from 15 feet away instead of 5, it's also the variety of things you can at any given range.

The last point was me being facetious. I know shadow monks have more utility but it doesn't change the fact that AoE coverage is very rare for a monk and flying enemies are forced into melee by a monk.

But versatility, while not just melee&range, is definitely to do with how adaptable you are to any given situation. And open-palm monks aren't adaptable to several enemies or flying enemies.

[MaxWilson]

Buddy, this is level 4. You're expected to bring more to the table than that.

In this situation, Flurry boosts your DPR from regular punching by 4.4 per ki spent on it (more with advantage). Burning Hands boosts your DPR by 3.275 per ki point spent on it (and requires you to split the damage between two targets rather than focusing someone down).

And that's comparing to your own flurry, not the benefits of being another subclass. An Open Palm Monk's DPR benefit for flurry is higher than that (particularly when you factor in their team combos, which is pretty much the entire point of putting one in your party).

In this situation where you've convinced yourself you're being versatile and awesome, you're actually being relatively weak, narrow, and resource-inefficient.

Hold on. I think this is a little bit unfair, because you're actually changing the subject. Asisreo was talking about the fantasy of elemental mastery, not the ki-efficiency of the mechanics. That makes it absolutely unfair to measure the ki-efficiency of the DPR increase instead of the total damage inflicted, which absolutely does go up (even though two orcs are a relatively poor choice for Burning Hands--for three hobgoblins, Burning Hands or Thunderwave is the hands-down winner AS WELL as being more ki-efficient than Flurry of Blows).

If you're playing with a group of roleplayers who play the game to express themselves as individuals and not so much for the tactical challenge, the ki-efficiency of your tactics probably doesn't even matter, but whether you can hop around shooting fire out of your hands probably does. It would be bad if shooting fire were mechanically BAD compare to just regular attacks, but since Burning Hands is adequate even in this scenario it doesn't matter that it's not optimal w/rt efficiency.

My sense is that you and Asisreo both agree that Elemonk is not exactly the best choice for a game of punishing tactical challenges, especially at levels 1-10 or so, but that isn't what Asisreo seems to be discussing.

[LudicSavant]

Okay then, let's lab it out

The flaw in your new comparison is that you're comparing Burning Hands to a single unarmed attack.

When you Flurry at level 4, you're making 3 attacks.

Sure, the Ki points were effective but doesn't that mean you're "out of Ki points" using that technique. You can't do it again.

It costs the same as Burning Hands.

[MaxWilson]

The flaw in your new comparison is that you're comparing Burning Hands to a single unarmed attack.

When you Flurry at level 4, you're making 3 attacks.

It costs the same as Burning Hands.

Again, that's a little bit unfair. It's like saying that Fireball really only does 8d6-4d10 (6) damage for 5 spell points at 20th level, because otherwise you'd be casting Fire Bolt. It's one way of looking at it, but it doesn't make it wrong to say "Fireball does about 28 damage for 5 SP."

[Asisreo1]

Normal Attack (18 Dex) vs AC 13: 10.85
Flurry (18 Dex) vs AC 13: 15.525 (4.675 per ki over "normal attacks with the choice to boost Dex first.")
Burning Hands (16 Wis) vs +1 Dex save and 2 targets: 16.05 (2.6 per ki over "normal attacks with the choice to boost Dex first")
Burning Hands (18 Wis) vs +1 Dex save and 2 targets: 16.3 (2.725 per ki over "normal attacks with the choice to boost Dex first")

Which incidentally highlights another opportunity cost here, if you decide to invest in Wis first instead of Dex for the sake of your spells.

It also highlights that there's a good chance you could likely have just killed an orc outright (thereby reducing their action economy).

I was calculating per-ki damage. AoE's are good because you can have a theoretical army of orcs in your blast range. Or even goblins.

Actually, I'm curious about how goblins would fare instead. They're very common in a D&D game.

[LudicSavant]

I was calculating per-ki damage.

So was I. The value per ki is based on how much you improved on whatever alternative action you could have taken.

In the case of Flurry, you're directly adding to the effectiveness of your actions. In the case of Burning Hands, you're replacing with a different action. This is a crucial variable for a practical evaluation.

[Asisreo1]

The flaw in your new comparison is that you're comparing Burning Hands to a single unarmed attack.

I'm comparing it for bang for your Ki-buck. It's basically a steal. In the example with the orcs, we're doing 16.05 burning hands damage a round based on your 16(+3) wisdom versus 15.5 flurry damage a round. Sometimes, an orc has more HP than regular or sometimes you're fighting two goblin bosses where three attacks aren't going to kill them on average. So DPR split would be better.

It costs the same as Burning Hands.

Yeah, I know. It was having fun at the people saying 2Ki points is too expensive for 1 spell.

[LudicSavant]

I'm comparing it for bang for your Ki-buck.

As am I. You are not accounting for the practical difference between a ki ability that augments an action, vs one that does an entirely new action.

Try looking at it this way. Let's say you have two turns.
Turn 1: Burning Hands (2 ki)
Turn 2: Punch (0 ki)

vs

Turn 1: Flurry (1 ki)
Turn 2: Flurry (1 ki)

Sequence #2 will do more DPR for the same cost.

You cannot disconnect the value of flurry from the value of the actions it augments and have a practical comparison.

[MaxWilson]

I'm comparing it for bang for your Ki-buck. It's basically a steal. In the example with the orcs, we're doing 16.05 burning hands damage a round based on your 16(+3) wisdom versus 15.5 flurry damage a round. Sometimes, an orc has more HP than regular or sometimes you're fighting two goblin bosses where three attacks aren't going to kill them on average. So DPR split would be better.

Okay LudicSavant, I was wrong. Apparently you guys are both talking about ki efficiency after all.

My mistake.

[LudicSavant]

Okay LudicSavant, I was wrong. Apparently you guys are both talking about ki efficiency after all.

My mistake.

NP, thanks for correction

[Asisreo1]

NP, thanks for correction

Well, I concede that orcs would have been more cost efficient with flurry, but hobgoblins would have better Ki efficiency using burning hands on 2.

[Asisreo1]

Okay LudicSavant, I was wrong. Apparently you guys are both talking about ki efficiency after all.

My mistake.

Though, don't get me wrong. I had come to an incorrect conclusion but I don't necessarily think elemonks are best at DPR. I was mistaken about the orc example, though.

My main point is still that AoE and anti-air are still great tools for monks.

[MaxWilson]

Though, don't get me wrong. I had come to an incorrect conclusion but I don't necessarily think elemonks are best at DPR. I was mistaken about the orc example, though.

My main point is still that AoE and anti-air are still great tools for monks.

Agreed there. Obviously in a game where Wands of Fireball are ubiquitous that won't matter :) but I have never played such a game.

(If only one such wand is found, but you have an elemonk and a wizard, now you can kill mobs of up to CR 4ish with three Fireballs in one round! And when there are single monsters or small groups instead of mobs, again monk is very comfortable via Stunning Strike + Fly if needed.)

P.S. Boy, I would love to find a Wand of Fireballs as an Eldritch Knight.

[Asisreo1]

As am I. You are not accounting for the practical difference between a ki ability that augments an action, vs one that does an entirely new action.

Try looking at it this way. Let's say you have two turns.
Turn 1: Burning Hands (2 ki)
Turn 2: Punch (0 ki)

vs

Turn 1: Flurry (1 ki)
Turn 2: Flurry (1 ki)

Sequence #2 will do more DPR for the same cost.

You cannot disconnect the value of flurry from the value of the actions it augments and have a practical comparison.

What's funny is: The spell I thought wouldn't amount to much is actually the one that eeks by per-Ki damage. Thunderwave is a 15ft cube. I calculated my targets based on the DMG's expected AoE targets. For a 15ft cube, that's 15÷5=3.

Calculating everything, it seems like for the 2 rounds of damage for 2 Ki spent is 31.05, meaning you're doing 15.525 damage per Ki in the case of flurry.

The 2 rounds of damage with one being thunderwave is 31.4375 which equates to 15.71875 damage per Ki which is just barely higher than flurry.

[HiveStriker]

As am I. You are not accounting for the practical difference between a ki ability that augments an action, vs one that does an entirely new action.

Try looking at it this way. Let's say you have two turns.
Turn 1: Burning Hands (2 ki)
Turn 2: Punch (0 ki)

vs

Turn 1: Flurry (1 ki)
Turn 2: Flurry (1 ki)

Sequence #2 will do more DPR for the same cost.

You cannot disconnect the value of flurry from the value of the actions it augments and have a practical comparison.

And means those targets will have had one turn to act in between.

{Scrubbed}

Focus-firing an enemy yourself if there is a high chance your next ally will deal enough damage by him|herself that the amount dealt with Flurry would be overkill.
Focus-firing an enemy is equally a bad idea if he has a good AC, because you'll have a chance to waste several attacks, and possibly not even a chance to impose an effect (like that Open Hand prone or push).
And if enemies are physically resistant, it may also make an AOE spell a better choice at least until you get "magical" on your Unarmed attacks (but not your weapon, unless you go Kensei).

Distributing hits to enemies would also mean that either they are both in range of your hit without moving, meaning you expose yourself to two OA if you want to move away, or that you can just Attack because you want to Disengage with your bonus action. And if they are not "in parallel", you may even need to spend some feet to reach the second.
Best case would be a) You're an Open Monk b) creatures are both within range of a "common spot" c) You hit them both with Flurry d) You try prone effect and they both fail, because you know there are allies that act before their own turn and can kill them.
That's a fair amount of variables there to really make that choice really shine.

Well, it's no different for 4E abilities. Picking Burning Hands/Shatter if you already have an Evoker or Light Cleric is very certainly subpar. In a martial-focused party, it may be largely worth. Same with Water Whip / Unbroken Air: if you're the only melee and everyone else is played ranged, trying to put people prone won't be appreciated. Playing with a Barbarian or Paladin though, classes which are notoriously chasing their prey unless specific build choices, will make Water Whip very valuable against high AC targets.

Same {Scrubbed} with your Shadow Monk: you're automagically supposing that a) you have blunt people in your party b) no other people in party could provide Pass Wtithout Trace (Trickery Cleric, Ranger, Druid, or anyone with the proper Ravnica thing bus spell) c) you are in a situation where hiding before a fight starts is possible. When you talk about Silence for shutting off casters, you conveniently forget that a Monk's concentration sucks unless he does something about it, so unless allies can aggro well, there is always a chance effect will break much earlier than what you'd like or expect. And you conviently assume that either Monk himself can reach caster in time and Stun him, or (better) he stunned on first turn then managed to Grapple and next turn cast Silence (meaning you have many enemies around), or that you had a sturdy and reliable ally like a Barbarian close enough to coordinate with you to lock caster up. Because otherwise, it's a waste of action: Silence is 20 feet radius, most creatures have at least 30 feet, nothing prevents caster from moving away on its turn before casting.
So there too, there is a more than fair number of assumptions to make it good.

It may be simpler to admit that you don't like 4E because you prefer focusing on being great at a very few things and rely on other members for every situation where you'd suck by yourself because you usually play in a large and varied party so having a "small perimeter" is fine, than trying to make a general case while hiding several handfuls of contextual assumptions.

[JellyPooga]

Try looking at it this way. Let's say you have two turns.
Turn 1: Burning Hands (2 ki)
Turn 2: Punch (0 ki)

vs

Turn 1: Flurry (1 ki)
Turn 2: Flurry (1 ki)

Sequence #2 will do more DPR for the same cost.

Thought I'd do my own calculations to check the numbers on this (see Spoiler) and came to the following conclusions;

Spoiler: Showing my work

Show

Sorry this looks scruffy, so I hope it makes sense. Please correct me if any of the following is either a) an unfair assumption or b) incorrect.
Basic Assumptions
Monk lvl.3
Dex: 16, Wis: 16

2 Orcs
AC: 13
Dex Save +1
HP:15

Attacks:
- Quarterstaff +5 (1d8+3) - Avg. 7.5, Non-crit Hit Rate 60%
- Quarterstaff crit (2d8+3) - Avg. 12, Crit rate 5%
- Unarmed Strike +5 (1d4+3) - Avg. 5.5, Non-crit Hit Rate 60%
- Unarmed crit (2d4+3) - Avg. 8, Crit rate 5%
- Burning Hands DC:13 (3d6 Dex sv. for half) - Avg. 10.5 (5.25 on Save), Failed Save rate 55%

Burning Hands: (10.5x55%=5.775) + (5.25x45%=2.36) = 8.1375 x2 orcs = 16.275
Martial Arts: (7.5x60%=4.5) + (12x5%=0.6) + (5.5x60%=3.3) + (8x5%=0.4) = 8.8
Flurry: (Martial Arts) + (5.5x60% =3.3) + (8 x5% = 0.4)= 12.5

Burning Hands + Martial Arts = 25.075
Flurry + Flurry = 25

1) In a single round, Burning Hands deals roughly 4 points of additional damage compared to Flurry, albeit across multiple targets.
2) Over 2 rounds and equal Ki spent, Burning Hands deals insignificantly more damage than Flurry.
3) Neither Burning Hands or Flurry will (on average) kill an Orc in one turn.
4) At level 3, the difference is negligible except with regard to;
- Range, in which case Burning Hands has a marginal advantage
- Burst damage, in which case Burning Hands also has the edge advantage (at least with regard to total damage dealt)
- Single Target damage, in which case FoB has a the advantage

As level increases, yes, Flurry gains damage potential as Damage Die and Ability Score increases, but it's also worth noting that Burning Hands can also be upcast for greater burst damage potential and the obvious (and significant) gain from number of targets favours Burning Hands too; in the above calculations, for example, a third target increases Burning Hands total damage by about 8; about a 1/3 increase in total damage dealt more than FoB.

The Ki point comparison might have been a useful metric if the damage potential was significantly different, but as shown above it really isn't, especially given the use-case scenarios. Against a single target in this scenario, the 4E Monk is better off using no Ki at all than using Burning Hands, unless damage type or range are an issue. Against six targets in a handy cone-shape, Burning Hands total damage dealt is more than double that of Flurry for the same Ki and action cost (ignoring that using Burning Hands gives you an additional Bonus Action to use over FoB, but I digress...).

What does this prove other than "AoE is better for multiple targets"? For one, it proves that 4E can add a useful AoE damage option to the standard Monk package, at least at level 3 vs. Orcs. At higher levels and in different scenarios, the calculations will differ for obvious reasons, but that doesn't invalidate Burning Hands as a useful tool vs. multiple low-challenge foes.

[Chaos Jackal]

The reason 4e monk is a comparatively weak subclass isn't the efficiency of burning hands, though that is part of the problem too.

4e monk is a spellcasting subclass for a primarily martial class. However, unlike straight half-casters like paladins and spellcasting subclasses of other martial classes like eldritch knights, their spellcasting covers the entirety of their subclass features.

A paladin gets spellcasting built in their base chassis, and gets numerous other features both from its base class and its subclass, some of which synergize with its spellcasting. An eldritch knight's spellcasting is only one feature of the subclass, and the rest of the features work to augment it. 4e monk doesn't have that. 4e monk's features are its spells. It gets nothing more to synergize with them. It's the spellcasting subclass with the smallest number of spells known and the smallest number of spells available, and its list is fixed, which means it's never getting access to any cool or powerful thematic spells that have or will be printed in other books.

Worse yet, they're actually clashing with the main chassis, because both action economy and resource spending collide, and this makes them compare unfavorably to other monks too. A shadow monk, for example, gets as many spells at lv3 as a 4e monk does in the entire game. Sure, they aren't very powerful, but they are cheaper (ki=level compared to ki=level+1), they get synergy with both the class and the subclass, and they are just one of a number of useful features a shadow monk gets.

So yes, 4e monks can do a few things that other monks can't. But they don't do those things all too well. And worse yet, they have to choose between doing those things or being a monk, due to the usage of ki and actions, whereas other monk subclasses are effective at what their schtick is and don't have to sacrifice being a monk to pull it off.

Compared to other half-casters or third-casters, 4e monks suffer from a lack of synergies and a very limited spell list. Compared to other monks, 4e monks suffer because they can be either their class or their subclass, but not both (with very few exceptions), while most other monks can use most of their class and their subclass abilities together for greater effect.

So, regardless of whether or not you know when your weak, costly AoE option is a better choice than punching, you're not going to pull much out of a 4e monk for most levels, because there's not much there in the first place.

[LudicSavant]

Thought I'd do my own calculations to check the numbers on this (see Spoiler) and came to the following conclusions;

Sorry this looks scruffy, so I hope it makes sense. Please correct me if any of the following is either a) an unfair assumption or b) incorrect.

Okay! Happy to check the work.

Basic Assumptions
Monk lvl.3
Dex: 16, Wis: 16

The scenario discussed above was level 4, so we're working with slightly different variables here.

Attacks:
- Quarterstaff +5 (1d8+3) - Avg. 7.5, Non-crit Hit Rate 60%
- Quarterstaff crit (2d8+3) - Avg. 12, Crit rate 5%
- Unarmed Strike +5 (1d4+3) - Avg. 5.5, Non-crit Hit Rate 60%
- Unarmed crit (2d4+3) - Avg. 8, Crit rate 5%

That all appears correct.

- Burning Hands DC:13 (3d6 Dex sv. for half) - Avg. 10.5 (5.25 on Save), Failed Save rate 55%

This is very slightly off because it doesn't account for the fact that in 5e, you round down when halving damage. The precise formula for "save for half" damage is damage/2 - 0.25 (so in this case, 5.0, not 5.25).

Burning Hands: (10.5x55%=5.775) + (5.25x45%=2.36) = 8.1375 x2 orcs = 16.275

There are two small inaccuracies here.

The first is that 5.25*45% = 2.3625, not 2.36 (maybe you were just rounding? But you don't do so elsewhere in your calculations)

The second is that your formula didn't account for 5e's rounding rule (mentioned above).

The precise result should be 8.025 per target, or 16.05 for both orcs.

Or to put it in your format (10.5*55%=5.775) + (5x45%=2.25) = 8.025 x2 orcs = 16.05. Which as you can see matches the numbers I provided earlier for the 16 Wis result.

Martial Arts: (7.5x60%=4.5) + (12x5%=0.6) + (5.5x60%=3.3) + (8x5%=0.4) = 8.8
Flurry: (Martial Arts) + (5.5x60% =3.3) + (8 x5% = 0.4)= 12.5

That's correct.

Burning Hands + Martial Arts = 25.075

You can't use Martial Arts on a turn that you use Burning Hands. That whole chunk of damage should not be included in the "Burning Hands" option.

When you use the Attack action with an unarmed strike or a monk weapon on your turn, you can make one unarmed strike as a bonus action.

Hope that helps!

[NaughtyTiger]

Burning Hands: (10.5x55%=5.775) + (5.25x45%=2.36) = 8.1375 x2 orcs = 16.275

There are two small inaccuracies here.
The first is that 5.25*45% = 2.3625, not 2.36
The second is that your formula didn't account for 5e's rounding rule (mentioned above).
The precise result should be 8.025 per target, or 16.05 for both orcs.
Or to put it in your format (10.5*55%=5.775) + (5x45%=2.25) = 8.025 x2 orcs = 16.05. Which as you can see matches the numbers I provided earlier for the 16 Wis result.

fractional damage values are correct when discussing averages.
it is interesting that you claim otherwise on his post.

you noted (10.5*55%) is a correct representation of the average damage on a failed save
you claimed ' 15.525 (4.675 per ki over "normal attacks with the choice to boost Dex first.")'

ludic clarified the math for rounding on failed saves.

moreover

(10.5x55%) + (5.25x45%) = 8.1375, so at best you can claim he misformatted.

apparently Alucard is incorrect.