4-elements Monk

[LudicSavant]

fractional damage values are correct when discussing averages.

You seem to have misunderstood the mathematical principle at work here.

It's not that you round down fractional values when averaging. It's that the fact that you round down any given result on a die changes the average of said die rolls.

For example, the average of 1d8 is:

(1+2+3+4+5+6+7+8)/8 = 4.5

Then if you apply the save for half rule, it's:

1/2 rounded down (0) + 2/2 round down (1) + 3/2 rounded down (1) and so forth for a total of (0+1+1+2+2+3+3+4)/8 = 2

[LudicSavant]

I stand corrected on that point, i will adjust my post.

NP.

Edit: Apparently you deleted your last post, and edited a new error into your last one.

moreover

(10.5x55%) + (5.25x45%) = 8.1375, so at best you can claim he misformatted.

apparently Alucard is incorrect.

No, you just put 5.25xx45%, when it should be 5x45%. Again, because the correct formula for halved damage is Damage/2 -0.25.

The reason for this is because half of all possible die results will be reduced by 0.5 by the 5e rounding rules.

(10.5*55%=5.775) + (5x45%=2.25) = 8.025 x2 orcs = 16.05.

[Zuras]

If you're playing with a group of roleplayers who play the game to express themselves as individuals and not so much for the tactical challenge, the ki-efficiency of your tactics probably doesn't even matter, but whether you can hop around shooting fire out of your hands probably does. It would be bad if shooting fire were mechanically BAD compare to just regular attacks, but since Burning Hands is adequate even in this scenario it doesn't matter that it's not optimal w/rt efficiency.

The problem (for me, others seem not to mind) is that the hopping around shooting fire doesn’t last very long at all. At 6th level it’s two rounds and then you’re out, and don’t have any ki for your regular monk stuff either. I feel like if you blow all your sub class and class resources on something it should be more spectacular.

Compare the Battle Master. 4 superiority dice isn’t actually a lot over the 2-3 encounters you should get between short rests, nor is it a massive amount of damage in the abstract (+4d8 total at 6th level). However, since you only spend it on a hit and don’t have to decide when to use it versus your regular attack routine, in practice it’s pure awesomesauce on top of your regular fighter stuff.

Again, some sort of cantrip-like always available abilities tied to the 4 Elements, about as potent as an EK using a blade cantrip, with different riders based on the element, would go a long way towards fixing my issues. Add some minor abilities that trigger when you spend ki on a discipline (similar to Storm Sorcerers movement on casting a levelled spell) and you should be good.

[Asisreo1]

You seem to have misunderstood the mathematical principle at work here.

It's not that you round down fractional values when averaging. It's that the fact that you round down any given result on a die changes the average of said die rolls.

For example, the average of 1d8 is:

(1+2+3+4+5+6+7+8)/8 = 4.5

Then if you apply the save for half rule, it's:

1/2 rounded down (0) + 2/2 round down (1) + 3/2 rounded down (1) and so forth for a total of (0+1+1+2+2+3+3+4)/8 = 2

Yeah, I guess I should reopen my math books to account for everything but in this particular example, it would've been better to either flurry or cast shatter.

There are examples where it's better to burning hands than flurry, like against hobgoblins. But you can't flurry against a flying opponent, which severely reduces your options unless you're an elemonk.

That's kinda what keeps 4-elemonks okay. They aren't locked out from attacking at any enemy. I actually recommend WW over shatter because of the range and proning effect.

[NaughtyTiger]

NP.

Edit: Apparently you deleted your last post, and edited a new error into your last one.

i deleted my last post, because i agreed to your assessment without verifying it myself.
i did verify it myself, and have adjust the post accordingly.

you are incorrect about my editing in an error, because you misunderstood my intent.
you stated: "The first is that 5.25*45% = 2.3625, not 2.36"... this isn't an error, at best it is a misformat on his part.

you said he was not accurate.
given that (10.5x55%) + (5.25x45%) = 8.1375 is correct, and using 5.25*45%!= 2.36 would have given an incorrect result,
it is clear that he only reduced precision (not a math error) in transferring the value to the post.

since this reduction in displayed precision for the interim calculation didn't affect the result, he only made 1 error.

[Asisreo1]

The problem (for me, others seem not to mind) is that the hopping around shooting fire doesn’t last very long at all. At 6th level it’s two rounds and then you’re out, and don’t have any ki for your regular monk stuff either. I feel like if you blow all your sub class and class resources on something it should be more spectacular.

Compare the Battle Master. 4 superiority dice isn’t actually a lot over the 2-3 encounters you should get between short rests, nor is it a massive amount of damage in the abstract (+4d8 total at 6th level). However, since you only spend it on a hit and don’t have to decide when to use it versus your regular attack routine, in practice it’s pure awesomesauce on top of your regular fighter stuff.

Again, some sort of cantrip-like always available abilities tied to the 4 Elements, about as potent as an EK using a blade cantrip, with different riders based on the element, would go a long way towards fixing my issues. Add some minor abilities that trigger when you spend ki on a discipline (similar to Storm Sorcerers movement on casting a levelled spell) and you should be good.

Your regular monk stuff like martial arts, unarmored movement, and unarmored defense is still intact.

And you want to play judiciously. If it's more efficient to do flurry, use flurry until it's less efficient. But at some point an enemy's going to be in the air or there's going to be 3 enemies in close proximity.

These are the "Ki" (pun intended) moments that your elemental attacks should be. Otherwise, you can make stone quarterstaves, have a ft long line of fire, and create that air ball thing that aang rides. Also, the elemental attunment ability has 0 components, making it invisible. You can stealthily attack goblins from a distance without revealing your location or manipulate an NPC's interaction without being caught or spending Ki.

[JellyPooga]

So yes, 4e monks can do a few things that other monks can't. But they don't do those things all too well. And worse yet, they have to choose between doing those things or being a monk, due to the usage of ki and actions, whereas other monk subclasses are effective at what their schtick is and don't have to sacrifice being a monk to pull it off.

Is this a fair assessment? I mean, let's look at the PHB subclasses;

Open Hand
- Open Hand Technique. Yup. Absolutely. This does enhance something the Monk does already at no extra Ki or Action cost. Absolutely not sacrificing any Monk-ness here.
- Wholeness of Body. Healing. Self-only. As an Action. 1/Long rest. Hmm. Doesn't match any other Monk feature. It costs an Action, so pretty much definitely interfering with other Monk stuff, like punching people in the face; reckon this qualifies as "choosing between doing this or being a Monk". Pretty ineffective on the whole, or we can at least say that it's not doing the "healing" thing all that well, both because of its limited use and self only target. It doesn't exactly make you a Life Cleric, does it?
- Tranquility. Broken as soon as you throw your first punch. Just about the very definition of choosing between this and being a Monk.
- Quivering Palm. Ok, so it triggers when you land an unarmed attack. Doesn't interfere with normal Monk operation there, certainly. Costs an additional Action to actually activate it, though. Not going to complain about that, seeing as the effect is pretty decent, if a little limited in scope; i.e. single target only and it takes a turn to set up. Kind of like Power Word: Kill, but with a casting time of 2 rounds and you have to hit them first. At 17th lvl the "on the same plane" criteria can be pretty significant too, let's not forget. On the whole, pretty Monk-ish, but I'd hesitate to say it really synergises with normal Monk operations, per se.

Shadow
- Shadow Arts. Four spells (plus a cantrip), all of which take an Action to cast. Granted, they add to the versatility of the Monk with regard to stealth and anti-caster options, so some synergy with basic Monk there. Definitely choosing between "This" and "Regular Monk" though. Any Wizard could cast 4/5 of the options available and Pass Without Trace is a common pick for Rangers and Druids. You're hardly filling a niche role. Costs Ki, so are you sure you wouldn't be better off spending that Ki on Stunning Strike?
- Shadow Step. Situational (a common situation, granted, but situational nonetheless). Bonus Action competes with additional attacks, reducing chances for Stuns. Otherwise free. Yeah, I'll give this one its due; awesome feature that enhances mobility for almost zero cost. Synergises well with regular Monk function.
- Cloak of Shadows. Costs an action and it broken by combat actions, so is largely limited to solely stealth function, rather than combat. Innately, Monks aren't actually that good at stealth beyond a decent Dex and some ability to be in unexpected places due to Step of the Wind, Unarmoured Movement (9th lvl) and Slow Fall. This makes the Monk actively good at Stealth in the dark...which is a bit like the Invisible Boy who's only invisible when no-one is looking, IMO, but I digress. The other thing to consider is that as an 11th level feature, we're hardly breaking the bank; Invisibility and Greater Invisibility are both superior for their use cases and are available much earlier.
- Opportunist. At 17th level, most things you'll be fighting have a reach greater than 5ft, which means you'll be putting yourself in the situation of being able to use it. This is directly counter to the usual Monk mode of skirmish/kiting. I'd call this a "This or Monk" ability, myself.

4-Elements
- 3rd lvl. Choose between AoE damage (Burning Hands, Thunderwave), Ranged "tackle" (Unbroken Air/Water Whip), Terrain utility (Flowing River) or Punch Enhancement (Fire Snake). One of these directly enhances regular Monk attacks at no additional action cost. Flowing River offers terrain manipulation that the Monk is equipped to take advantage of with his enhanced mobility option. AoE is a weakness that the Monk has and gives him a solid alternative to feeling crummy when there's an army to fight. Ranged options for the Monk are on the whole lacklustre, so UA/WW offer something exciting and Monk-ish to do at range. Competes with Monk? Yes, mostly. Feels like Monk options but in a different package? Also yes.
- 6th lvl. Hold Person is Stun at range with longer duration. Prety Monk-ish. Shatter extends the AoE potential. Competing? Sure. Does it compete with regular Monk function any more than Wholeness of Body does? At least 4E can use Shatter multiple times a day.
- 11th lvl. Fly, Gaseous Form. What is a Monk if not mobile? This is literally a direct enhancement of what it means to be a Monk. Fireball offers respectable AoE damage if that's what you're here for; I'm not about to complain too hard about getting to use it multiple times per short rest.
- 17th lvl. Wall spells again manipulate the terrain, which the Monk is uniquely equipped to to capitalise on. Another AoE damage option if you want it, in the form of Cone of Cold.

---

So as far as I can tell, both Open Hand and Shadow Monks offer exactly one feature that directly enhances something that the core Monk already does at no cost in Ki or Actions. Other than that, their features compete for Ki, Actions and/or core function. I'm not saying 4E does any different and yeah, maybe 4E Disciplines cost a little too much Ki, but at least 4E offers some degree of versatility to tailor your suite of abilities to your taste (unlike either of the other two). I'd also be inclined to say that while they compete for Action and Ki economy, most of the Disciplines synergise pretty well with the core feel of what it means to be a Monk; whether that be inflicting status effects, push/pulling people around, mobility or just straight dealing damage, which is more than can be said for the Shadow Monk trying to add stealth to an otherwise not-that-stealthy chassis or Open Hand trying to add healing and not-fighting to a non-healer, fighting chassis.

[JellyPooga]

You can't use Martial Arts on a turn that you use Burning Hands. That whole chunk of damage should not be included in the "Burning Hands" option.

You can use it on the 2nd turn, though. The two values I gave were the total over two rounds; one for (Round 1: Burning Hands, Round 2: Q.staff+Martial Arts) and the other for (Round 1: Q.Staff+FoB, Round 2: Q/Staff+FoB). Ki is not the only consideration at hand when the Action economy of the scenario is also important. In terms of raw damage output, yes, Burning Hands is inefficient compared to FoB, but in terms of actions, it's superior. It's also worth reiterating that the Burning Hands option doesn't use your Bonus Action on that first round, while the Flurry option obviously does, giving the former a greater flexibility; on that 2nd round, Burning Hands guy could even FoB to deal more damage than the FoB guy (albeit at the cost of more Ki).

Rounding minutiae notwithstanding (thanks for checking my work, btw), my point remains the same; roughly speaking, whether you use Burning Hands or Flurry in this scenario against 2 Orcs, the (raw) damage output is about the same, making the use case the deciding factor of which to use. Neither has a significant advantage over the other in an "all cases" scenario, which means that either is a solid option and further that having both available to choose from is superior to only having one or the other. Enhancing FoB with Open Hand shenanigans, terrain considerations aside, doesn't make it better than Burning Hands if you're facing 6 Orcs in a handy cone. Neither does adding bonus damage to Burning Hands (e.g. like a Sorcerer can) if you're facing a single opponent.

[LudicSavant]

(thanks for checking my work, btw)

Happy to help

[Zuras]

Is this a fair assessment? I mean, let's look at the PHB subclasses;

Shadow
- Shadow Arts. Four spells (plus a cantrip), all of which take an Action to cast. Granted, they add to the versatility of the Monk with regard to stealth and anti-caster options, so some synergy with basic Monk there. Definitely choosing between "This" and "Regular Monk" though. Any Wizard could cast 4/5 of the options available and Pass Without Trace is a common pick for Rangers and Druids. You're hardly filling a niche role. Costs Ki, so are you sure you wouldn't be better off spending that Ki on Stunning Strike?
- Shadow Step. Situational (a common situation, granted, but situational nonetheless). Bonus Action competes with additional attacks, reducing chances for Stuns. Otherwise free. Yeah, I'll give this one its due; awesome feature that enhances mobility for almost zero cost. Synergises well with regular Monk function.
- Cloak of Shadows. Costs an action and it broken by combat actions, so is largely limited to solely stealth function, rather than combat. Innately, Monks aren't actually that good at stealth beyond a decent Dex and some ability to be in unexpected places due to Step of the Wind, Unarmoured Movement (9th lvl) and Slow Fall. This makes the Monk actively good at Stealth in the dark...which is a bit like the Invisible Boy who's only invisible when no-one is looking, IMO, but I digress. The other thing to consider is that as an 11th level feature, we're hardly breaking the bank; Invisibility and Greater Invisibility are both superior for their use cases and are available much earlier.
- Opportunist. At 17th level, most things you'll be fighting have a reach greater than 5ft, which means you'll be putting yourself in the situation of being able to use it. This is directly counter to the usual Monk mode of skirmish/kiting. I'd call this a "This or Monk" ability, myself.

4-Elements
- 3rd lvl. Choose between AoE damage (Burning Hands, Thunderwave), Ranged "tackle" (Unbroken Air/Water Whip), Terrain utility (Flowing River) or Punch Enhancement (Fire Snake). One of these directly enhances regular Monk attacks at no additional action cost. Flowing River offers terrain manipulation that the Monk is equipped to take advantage of with his enhanced mobility option. AoE is a weakness that the Monk has and gives him a solid alternative to feeling crummy when there's an army to fight. Ranged options for the Monk are on the whole lacklustre, so UA/WW offer something exciting and Monk-ish to do at range. Competes with Monk? Yes, mostly. Feels like Monk options but in a different package? Also yes.
- 6th lvl. Hold Person is Stun at range with longer duration. Prety Monk-ish. Shatter extends the AoE potential. Competing? Sure. Does it compete with regular Monk function any more than Wholeness of Body does? At least 4E can use Shatter multiple times a day.
- 11th lvl. Fly, Gaseous Form. What is a Monk if not mobile? This is literally a direct enhancement of what it means to be a Monk. Fireball offers respectable AoE damage if that's what you're here for; I'm not about to complain too hard about getting to use it multiple times per short rest.
- 17th lvl. Wall spells again manipulate the terrain, which the Monk is uniquely equipped to to capitalise on. Another AoE damage option if you want it, in the form of Cone of Cold.

---

So as far as I can tell, both Open Hand and Shadow Monks offer exactly one feature that directly enhances something that the core Monk already does at no cost in Ki or Actions. Other than that, their features compete for Ki, Actions and/or core function. I'm not saying 4E does any different and yeah, maybe 4E Disciplines cost a little too much Ki, but at least 4E offers some degree of versatility to tailor your suite of abilities to your taste (unlike either of the other two). I'd also be inclined to say that while they compete for Action and Ki economy, most of the Disciplines synergise pretty well with the core feel of what it means to be a Monk; whether that be inflicting status effects, push/pulling people around, mobility or just straight dealing damage, which is more than can be said for the Shadow Monk trying to add stealth to an otherwise not-that-stealthy chassis or Open Hand trying to add healing and not-fighting to a non-healer, fighting chassis.

The point you are missing, at least regarding the Shadow Monk, is that all its ki abilities are high variance but zero disappointment.

You may not need to sneak up on or past anyone during a session, but if you do, you spend 2 ki and almost automatically succeed.

You may not have a variant human with you whose need for light is ruining your otherwise perfect stealth setup, but if you do, you can spend a short rest resource to solve the problem for 8 hours.

The Barbarian probably isn’t always grappling enemy wizards, but when they do, you can silence the wizard with 100% accuracy.

Basically all your options are either awesome, or they just don’t come up. Your features might be weak, but they are never disappointing. You are rarely in situations where your features are relevant but they underperform.

Shadow monk abilities are basically 0/10 or 10/10 in effectiveness, and you just don’t use them if they aren’t relevant. 4E disciplines are useful more often but consistently 4/10 or 5/10 in effectiveness.

[JellyPooga]

The point you are missing, at least regarding the Shadow Monk, is that all its ki abilities are high variance but zero disappointment.

You may not need to sneak up on or past anyone during a session, but if you do, you spend 2 ki and almost automatically succeed.

You may not have a variant human with you whose need for light is ruining your otherwise perfect stealth setup, but if you do, you can spend a short rest resource to solve the problem for 8 hours.

The Barbarian probably isn’t always grappling enemy wizards, but when they do, you can silence the wizard with 100% accuracy.

Basically all your options are either awesome, or they just don’t come up. Your features might be weak, but they are never disappointing. You are rarely in situations where your features are relevant but they underperform.

Shadow monk abilities are basically 0/10 or 10/10 in effectiveness, and you just don’t use them if they aren’t relevant. 4E disciplines are useful more often but consistently 4/10 or 5/10 in effectiveness.

I'm not sure why you think 4E abilities might be less than satisfying, or indeed why Shadow might always be perfectly so. Someone has already pointed out that Silence is easily negated by a number of means, and PWT can still fail to a bad roll despite the significant bonus. On the flipside, what's inconsistent about being able to cast Fly for enhabced mobility or use Flowing River to make an ice wall to protect the squishy caster or bridge a river? Even the AoE spells and UA/WW offer half damage for "failure", which is a consolation prize better than "no effect".

[MaxWilson]

The problem (for me, others seem not to mind) is that the hopping around shooting fire doesn’t last very long at all. At 6th level it’s two rounds and then you’re out, and don’t have any ki for your regular monk stuff either. I feel like if you blow all your sub class and class resources on something it should be more spectacular.

You're not wrong, and when I had a satisfying experience with an Elemonk it involved having two shticks: Elemonk + Prodigy (Athletics). It was pretty fun to hop around spewing fire (if I did it again I'd pick Thunderwave instead though) and grapple/proning monsters then beating them up with advantage.

I think it's really important for elemonks to have a fun thing to do that doesn't cost ki. Some people have suggested a houserule of letting all monks use Wisdom (Athletic) on grapples/shoves, and I think that's interesting and sounds justified by martial arts tropes.

Compare the Battle Master. 4 superiority dice isn’t actually a lot over the 2-3 encounters you should get between short rests, nor is it a massive amount of damage in the abstract (+4d8 total at 6th level). However, since you only spend it on a hit and don’t have to decide when to use it versus your regular attack routine, in practice it’s pure awesomesauce on top of your regular fighter stuff.

Meh, for me the Battlemaster has the same problem as the Elemonk. I still need some fun at-will stuff.

Again, some sort of cantrip-like always available abilities tied to the 4 Elements, about as potent as an EK using a blade cantrip, with different riders based on the element, would go a long way towards fixing my issues. Add some minor abilities that trigger when you spend ki on a discipline (similar to Storm Sorcerers movement on casting a levelled spell) and you should be good.

Those things aren't important to me personally but as your DM I'd have no problem adopting your suggestion of spending your bonus action on elemental damage. It's nicely-designed to be flavorful but not too strong, and I don't foresee any issues with fighters dipping monk 3 in order to steal it.

=======================================

Yeah, I guess I should reopen my math books to account for everything but in this particular example, it would've been better to either flurry or cast shatter.

There are examples where it's better to burning hands than flurry, like against hobgoblins. But you can't flurry against a flying opponent, which severely reduces your options unless you're an elemonk.

That's kinda what keeps 4-elemonks okay. They aren't locked out from attacking at any enemy. I actually recommend WW over shatter because of the range and proning effect.

Another thing is that flurry costs your bonus action and Burning Hands does not, so if you run up to a N orcs where N is sizable and Flurry one, they could kill you with their great big axes, but if you Burning Hands + Patient Defense you're probably safe. It costs more ki of course but it's an option.

Concrete example: you're a 3rd level monk with Thunderwave and 27 HP, and you spot a clump of 5 hobgoblins on the battlefield. You can run up and Thunderwave them, and have a chance to kill all or most of them, but what if you roll low on Thunderwave and they survive? You need a backup plan, and Patient Defense is that backup plan. If more than one Hobgoblin survives you will use Patient Defense.

Dex 16 3rd level monk with Flurry
Monk Death: 44.1%
Damage taken: 25.58
Ki spent: 1.00
Damage dealt: 6.86
Hobs left alive: 4.71

Dex 18 3rd level monk with Flurry
Monk Death: 36.7%
Damage taken: 22.56
Ki spent: 1.00
Damage dealt: 8.88
Hobs left alive: 4.50

Dex 16 3rd level monk with Thunderwave + Patient Defense only if multiple hobgoblins survived
Monk Death: 6.4%
Damage taken: 8.43
Ki spent: 2.96
Damage dealt: 30.62
Hobs left alive: 4.29

Dex 18 3rd level monk with Thunderwave + Patient Defense only if multiple hobgoblins survived
Monk Death: 4.0%
Damage taken: 6.43
Ki spent: 2.96
Damage dealt: 30.58
Hobs left alive: 4.29

By using Thunderwave instead of Flurry you do 4x more damage and cut your damage taken by 3x to 4x. Your chances of dying go from ~40% down to 5%. That feels pretty awesome, doesn't it?

Spoiler: Simulation Code

Show

let r = System.Random()
let d n = 1 + r.Next n
let sim dex flurry =
    let mutable kiSpent = 0
    let mutable pd = false
    let hobs = Array.init 5 (fun _ -> 11)
    let hob n =
        if hobs.[n] <= 0 then 0
        else
            let ma = (hobs |> Seq.filter (fun x -> x > 0) |> Seq.length) > 1
            let dmg =
                match min (d 20) (if pd then d 20 else 20) with
                | 20 when ma -> d 8 + d 6 + d 6 + d 8 + d 6 + d 6 + 1
                | 20 -> d 8 + d 6 + d 6 + 1
                | n when ma && n + 3 >= (13+dex) -> d 8 + d 6 + d 6 + 1
                | n when n + 3 >= (13+dex) -> d 8 + 1
                | _ -> 0
            dmg
    let monk() =
        let mutable targetIx = 0
        let att sz =
            while hobs.[targetIx] <= 0 do
                targetIx <- targetIx + 1
            let dmg =
                match d 20 with
                | 20 -> d sz + d sz + dex
                | n when n + 2 + dex >= 18 -> d sz + dex
                | _ -> 0
            hobs.[targetIx] <- hobs.[targetIx] - dmg
        let thunder() =
            let dmg = d 8 + d 8
            kiSpent <- kiSpent + 2
            hobs |> Array.iteri (fun i hp ->
                let dmg = if d 20 + 1 >= (8 + 3 + 2) then dmg else dmg/2
                hobs.[i] <- hp - dmg)
        if flurry then
            att 8; att 4; att 4
            kiSpent <- kiSpent + 1
        else
            thunder()
            if (hobs |> Seq.filter (fun x -> x > 0) |> Seq.length) > 1 then
                pd <- true
                kiSpent <- kiSpent + 1
    monk()
    let damageTaken = [0..4] |> List.sumBy hob
    let damageDealt = [0..4] |> List.sumBy (fun i -> min 11 (11 - hobs.[i]))
    let hobsAlive = (hobs |> Seq.filter (fun x -> x > 0) |> Seq.length)
    let monkDeath = if damageTaken >= 27 then 1 else 0
    monkDeath, damageTaken, kiSpent, damageDealt, hobsAlive

let summarize label dex flurry N =
    let trials = List.init N (fun _ -> sim dex flurry)
    let monkDeath, damageTaken, kiSpent, damageDealt, hobsAlive = trials |> List.reduce(fun (a,b,c,d,e) (a1,b1,c1,d1,e1) -> (a+a1), (b+b1), (c+c1), d+d1, e+e1)
    let pct v = (float v * 100.)/(float N)
    let norm v = (float v)/(float N)
    printfn "%s\nMonk Death: %.1f%%\nDamage taken: %.2f\nKi spent: %.2f\nDamage dealt: %.2f\nHobs left alive: %.2f\n" label (pct monkDeath) (norm damageTaken) (norm kiSpent) (norm damageDealt) (norm hobsAlive) 

summarize "Dex 16 3rd level monk with Flurry" 3 true 1000
summarize "Dex 18 3rd level monk with Flurry" 4 true 1000
summarize "Dex 16 3rd level monk with Thunderwave + Patient Defense only if multiple hobgoblins survived" 3 false 1000
summarize "Dex 18 3rd level monk with Thunderwave  + Patient Defense only if multiple hobgoblins survived" 4 false 1000

=======================================

The point you are missing, at least regarding the Shadow Monk, is that all its ki abilities are high variance but zero disappointment.

You may not need to sneak up on or past anyone during a session, but if you do, you spend 2 ki and almost automatically succeed.

You may not have a variant human with you whose need for light is ruining your otherwise perfect stealth setup, but if you do, you can spend a short rest resource to solve the problem for 8 hours.

The Barbarian probably isn’t always grappling enemy wizards, but when they do, you can silence the wizard with 100% accuracy.

Basically all your options are either awesome, or they just don’t come up. Your features might be weak, but they are never disappointing. You are rarely in situations where your features are relevant but they underperform.

Apropos, one great way of leveraging Shadow Arts is to take the Alert feat. Now you can use 2 ki points and your concentration to:

(1) Give enemies disadvantage on attacks against you (unless they have blindsight/truesight/Devil's Sight), and
(2) Prevent opportunity attacks (unless they have...), and
(3) Prevent most spells from affecting you or anyone else in the party nearby, and
(4) Grant advantage on attacks and disadvantage to attackers of anyone else in the party who has blindsight or Devil's Sight, e.g. a Moon Druid in Giant Constrictor Snake Form or a Warlock.
(5) Potentially also enable additional Shadow Jumps, depending on DM rulings.

And it lasts for 10 minutes without requiring any more actions or bonus actions! And of course you're probably also the party scout and point man, so having +5 to initiative and never being surprised is great for seizing initiative in combat.

For a Shadow Monk, I would actually recommend prioritizing Alert even over Mobile.

[Zuras]

I'm not sure why you think 4E abilities might be less than satisfying, or indeed why Shadow might always be perfectly so. Someone has already pointed out that Silence is easily negated by a number of means, and PWT can still fail to a bad roll despite the significant bonus. On the flipside, what's inconsistent about being able to cast Fly for enhabced mobility or use Flowing River to make an ice wall to protect the squishy caster or bridge a river? Even the AoE spells and UA/WW offer half damage for "failure", which is a consolation prize better than "no effect".

My point is that players with a good grasp of tactics won’t waste their time with Silence or Darkness except in the (narrow) circumstances where they will probably work. It’s either good or irrelevant, like the Bard’s social skills or the Knowledge Cleric’s ridiculous Arcana score. I agree that the new Cleric player at their 3rd D&D session will continue to discover Silence is not the anti-caster button they were hoping for. Still, none of the Shadow Monk spells besides minor Illusion even have a save. For war gamer style players, this means any time they fail it’s due to bad player tactics, not the fickle d20. True, Shape the Flowing River, Fly and Gaseous Form just work, too, but that’s a big reason why the 4E Monk starts being fun to play at 11th level when more of those options are available.

If the 4E Monk got 4 strong but highly situational abilities like Shape the Flowing River at 3rd level (maybe one for each element) I would totally give it a try.

Having actually played a Shadow Monk though, I will say that Pass Without Trace is obviously head and shoulders above all the other features, not only because of its raw power but because of how it makes your preferred play style (solving problems via stealth) viable for the entire party.

[LudicSavant]

You can use it on the 2nd turn, though. The two values I gave were the total over two rounds; one for (Round 1: Burning Hands, Round 2: Q.staff+Martial Arts) and the other for (Round 1: Q.Staff+FoB, Round 2: Q/Staff+FoB)

Ah, that makes sense. I misinterpreted that particular line.

[JellyPooga]

My point is that players with a good grasp of tactics won’t waste their time with Silence or Darkness except in the (narrow) circumstances where they will probably work. It’s either good or irrelevant, like the Bard’s social skills or the Knowledge Cleric’s ridiculous Arcana score. I agree that the new Cleric player at their 3rd D&D session will continue to discover Silence is not the anti-caster button they were hoping for. Still, none of the Shadow Monk spells besides minor Illusion even have a save. For war gamer style players, this means any time they fail it’s due to bad player tactics, not the fickle d20. True, Shape the Flowing River, Fly and Gaseous Form just work, too, but that’s a big reason why the 4E Monk starts being fun to play at 11th level when more of those options are available.

If the 4E Monk got 4 strong but highly situational abilities like Shape the Flowing River at 3rd level (maybe one for each element) I would totally give it a try.

Having actually played a Shadow Monk though, I will say that Pass Without Trace is obviously head and shoulders above all the other features, not only because of its raw power but because of how it makes your preferred play style (solving problems via stealth) viable for the entire party.

I'm still struggling to see the difference. Surely a good tactical player will only use 4E Disciplines when it's appropriate to do so just as a Shadow Monk will only use Silence or Darkness when appropriate?

At Level 6, a 4E Monk has three Disciplines of their choice; for the sake of example, let's say they have Flowing River, Water Whip and Gong of the Summit (aka: Shatter). That's a utility, an AoE and a ranged pull/prone option. Both damaging options offer half damage even on a save and the utility option is both Ki efficient and always does exactly what you want it to. What makes that choice of Disciplines, that also offer a "consolation prize" on a failed result, any worse with regard to reliability or "power" compared to Shadow Arts, whilst also being largely less situational?

I'll concede that using Disciplines will compete with usual Monk shenanigans for Ki and Actions, but is that really any different from having to choose between casting two spells prepared or known? Does it take away from how good Invisibility is if it comes at the cost of casting Flaming Sphere?

[Amechra]

Shadow
- Shadow Arts. Four spells (plus a cantrip), all of which take an Action to cast. Granted, they add to the versatility of the Monk with regard to stealth and anti-caster options, so some synergy with basic Monk there. Definitely choosing between "This" and "Regular Monk" though. Any Wizard could cast 4/5 of the options available and Pass Without Trace is a common pick for Rangers and Druids. You're hardly filling a niche role. Costs Ki, so are you sure you wouldn't be better off spending that Ki on Stunning Strike?

The highlighted bit is incorrect. Wizards don't get Pass Without Trace or Silence. In fact, no spellcaster natively gets access to more than three of the five spells that the Shadow Monk gets. This changes when you throw in Magical Secrets and subclasses, but you'd actually have to try.

The other difference is that those spell options aren't competing for actions with the rest of your goodies. If a 4E Monk wants to use the Burning Hands they picked up, they have to spend a bunch of ki and forgo Attacking+BA Attacking. Conversely, the Shadow Monk isn't generally going to cast Pass Without Trace during combat, so the only trade-off they need to consider is their ki.

[MaxWilson]

The highlighted bit is incorrect. Wizards don't get Pass Without Trace or Silence. In fact, no spellcaster natively gets access to more than three of the five spells that the Shadow Monk gets. This changes when you throw in Magical Secrets and subclasses, but you'd actually have to try.

The other difference is that those spell options aren't competing for actions with the rest of your goodies. If a 4E Monk wants to use the Burning Hands they picked up, they have to spend a bunch of ki and forgo Attacking+BA Attacking. Conversely, the Shadow Monk isn't generally going to cast Pass Without Trace during combat, so the only trade-off they need to consider is their ki.

I agree with you that JellyPooga is underestimating Shadow Monks, but I want to address your point about elemonk action economy.

As shown above against the five hobgoblins, when AoEs are appropriate you're facing a mob, so BA attacking would often be inappropriate anyway compared to BA defending, which you can still do. BA attacking just results in getting killed. (Also, BA Defending may lead to getting an opportunity attack with your reaction, if they switch targets.)

[HiveStriker]

The problem (for me, others seem not to mind) is that the hopping around shooting fire doesn’t last very long at all. At 6th level it’s two rounds and then you’re out, and don’t have any ki for your regular monk stuff either. I feel like if you blow all your sub class and class resources on something it should be more spectacular.

Compare the Battle Master. 4 superiority dice isn’t actually a lot over the 2-3 encounters you should get between short rests, nor is it a massive amount of damage in the abstract (+4d8 total at 6th level). However, since you only spend it on a hit and don’t have to decide when to use it versus your regular attack routine, in practice it’s pure awesomesauce on top of your regular fighter stuff.

Again, some sort of cantrip-like always available abilities tied to the 4 Elements, about as potent as an EK using a blade cantrip, with different riders based on the element, would go a long way towards fixing my issues. Add some minor abilities that trigger when you spend ki on a discipline (similar to Storm Sorcerers movement on casting a levelled spell) and you should be good.

Yeah, that is perfectly understandable.
I'd argue that it's technically what Fangs of Fire Snake does already (no action required to get the effect) and it affects all unarmed strikes on your round.

Those houserules could work for you then.

1. Alter Fangs of Fire Snake to choose whatever element you like, and make it so that if you make an attack with a weapon you don't get extra reach but instead deal bonus damage equal to your Wisdom modifier.
Add ability to get a rider for another Ki on a single weapon attack: 5 feet reduction (cold), -1 AC against next attack (fire or acid), disadvantage on a next weapon attack (lightning), deafened for one turn (thunder).
The small amount of bonuses and apparently steep cost of my suggestion is (imo) compensated by the fact that those effects would "simply apply". So power creep is close.

2. Make 4E get "Sorcerer cantrip progression" among all "utility (non-damaging) elemental cantrips" and give him ability to cast them as bonus action: Mold Earth, Shape Water, Control Flames, Gust, Thunderclap, Shocking Grasp.

3. Allow also "self-range / melee" ones (Shocking Grasp, Thunderclap, Lightning Lure) and allow casting them as bonus action for 1 ki.

Point 1 will make you feel more powerful (it's a big bump actually at lower level, but will wane off later).
Point 2 will allow you to get creative with cantrips, so whether it's powerful or not is up to you (and DM), or you can simply pick the damaging ones to get yet another alternative.
Point 3 is only if you really want a significant damage boost (starts low, but scales with character level so ends pretty decent). Alternatively, you could also simply make Unbroken Air and Water Whip usable as bonus action (in addition to being usable as an action, so you can move a creature back and forth or instead double down).

And otherwise, if what you really want is not "an Elemental Monk" but really "an Elemental warrior", I'll find you the homebrew I spoke about earlier. :)
EDIT: Rereading more attentively your post, I feel that homebrew would definitely be to your liking, or at least provide you mechanical ideas you could "patch back" on Monk. I'll try my best to find it for you if you're interested (although not today, I'm back to work in a few minutes even if we are technically Sunday ^^).

Your regular monk stuff like martial arts, unarmored movement, and unarmored defense is still intact.

And you want to play judiciously. If it's more efficient to do flurry, use flurry until it's less efficient. But at some point an enemy's going to be in the air or there's going to be 3 enemies in close proximity.

These are the "Ki" (pun intended) moments that your elemental attacks should be. Otherwise, you can make stone quarterstaves, have a ft long line of fire, and create that air ball thing that aang rides. Also, the elemental attunment ability has 0 components, making it invisible. You can stealthily attack goblins from a distance without revealing your location or manipulate an NPC's interaction without being caught or spending Ki.

Could you please provide examples? I shamely admit I never thought that you could be using Elemental Attunement to "attack" (prepare an assault by snuffing torchs, sure, but actually attack?), I'm curious.

I think it's really important for elemonks to have a fun thing to do that doesn't cost ki. Some people have suggested a houserule of letting all monks use Wisdom (Athletic) on grapples/shoves, and I think that's interesting and sounds justified by martial arts tropes.

I hope I don't start a derailment here, but if we were gonna allow alternative attribute for Grapples/Shoves, wouldn't Dexterity make more sense?
From the little knowledge I have of martial arts, there are mainly two ways to limit (or completely stop) an enemy's movement: first is a brute power competition (holding him with such a grip the creature simply cannot superceded with its own strength); second is managing to put creature in such a position that it could still technically move but it would create excruciating pain or put a limb's health in jeopardy (like some "back arms-locks").

I would have no trouble explaining how a very agile and fast person manages to quickly grab a limb and turn it in such an "uncomfortable" way before the enemy has any chance to prevent it (by using muscle power to block or adjusting its own posture "on the flow").
Wisdom? Apart from the possible "you are aware and knwoledgable of anatomy so you know which point to target and how" (imo not enough ^^), not sure. Would you fluff it as sending a wave of energy into enemy body or something?

[JellyPooga]

The highlighted bit is incorrect. Wizards don't get Pass Without Trace or Silence. In fact, no spellcaster natively gets access to more than three of the five spells that the Shadow Monk gets. This changes when you throw in Magical Secrets and subclasses, but you'd actually have to try.

The other difference is that those spell options aren't competing for actions with the rest of your goodies. If a 4E Monk wants to use the Burning Hands they picked up, they have to spend a bunch of ki and forgo Attacking+BA Attacking. Conversely, the Shadow Monk isn't generally going to cast Pass Without Trace during combat, so the only trade-off they need to consider is their ki.

My mistake; I forgot Silence wasn't a Wizard spell. The point still stands that none of the spells the Shadow Monk gets are any more unique than those 4E gets; them all being on a single caster is not, necessarily a good thing either, even if it is thematic.

PWT and Darkvision won't compete for actions, but Darkness, Silence and Minor Illusion absolutely can and will. When 3/5 of the spells a feature gives you compete for actions, especially given that one of the ones that doesn't (Darkvision) is rarely, if ever, going to be used at all (depending on build), I think we can say that the feature does in general.

I'm not trying to "prove" that Shadow Monks are bad or anything, so much as asking the question of why they're rated so much higher than 4E. The point is that many, most, if not all the arguments being levelled against 4E can easily be fired at both Shadow and Open Hand; "doesn't synergise with other Monk features", "costs Ki", "competes for Actions", "doesn't compare favourably to other spellcasters"...4E is not alone in these regards. What makes 4E worse? Is it just the perceived high cost?

[LudicSavant]

Darkvision) is rarely, if ever, going to be used at all

I actually use Darkvision a lot as a Shadow Monk. Darkvision lasts for 8 hours, and you have it on a one-hour recharge. Basically you can give that entire party of VHumans Darkvision in the morning (level permitting), rest up, and have all your ki for the dungeon.

This means that not only can I ensure that the whole party is at least decently stealthy, but also that I can have them all skulking through the dark, no lights to give away our position.

[elyktsorb]

What makes 4E worse? Is it just the perceived high cost?

I think it's that 4E monk should definitely be way cooler than what it is.

[JellyPooga]

I actually use Darkvision a lot as a Shadow Monk. Darkvision lasts for 8 hours, and you have it on a one-hour recharge. Basically you can give that entire party of VHumans Darkvision in the morning (level permitting), rest up, and have all your ki for the dungeon.

And in a party of demi-humans, it will never see use at all. Anecdotal evidence is valid, but weak.

[HiveStriker]

My point is that players with a good grasp of tactics won’t waste their time with Silence or Darkness except in the (narrow) circumstances where they will probably work. It’s either good or irrelevant, like the Bard’s social skills or the Knowledge Cleric’s ridiculous Arcana score. I agree that the new Cleric player at their 3rd D&D session will continue to discover Silence is not the anti-caster button they were hoping for. Still, none of the Shadow Monk spells besides minor Illusion even have a save. For war gamer style players, this means any time they fail it’s due to bad player tactics, not the fickle d20. True, Shape the Flowing River, Fly and Gaseous Form just work, too, but that’s a big reason why the 4E Monk starts being fun to play at 11th level when more of those options are available.

I'll have to disagree here on the bolded part. :)
As I stressed already in a previous post, it's not because you have a solid tactic in mind that it will pan out as you expected.
Even if you as a party were perfectly coordinated, you cannot be 100% sure that the enemy will react as you expect.

As soon as enemy lands more than exactly "one ranged hit" (which is what Deflect Arrows is here for) during any turn, you have a decent chance of losing concentration early. And unless you also uses Patient Defense, even if you managed to have extra high AC at low level for some reason (like typicall stats roll, great luck), you can do nothing against enemy lucking in and rolling a natural critical.

As for Pass Without Trace: yeah, it's one of the spells I consider myself "mandatory" for any party (not *really*, but making life so easier I'd really get out of track to get it one way or another).
So if I had to join as a Monk in an otherwise complete party, and nobody had a way to get Pass Without Trace, I'd very strongly consider it (just taking the "temp" beforehand of players, because it's no use grabbing an awesome tactical spell for sneak and ambush if players are in a SWAT mindset).

Exactly like I'd totally pick Long Death Monk over any other archetype if I were in a party where I'd probably end as the only frontliner (or one of two frontliners, otherone being a Paladin). Because the extra THP on kill would make a big difference in survivability (especially if I could coordinate with archers/caster to get the finishing blow as often as possible) and the Fear action would give me crowd control far superior to most other martials (especially since I wouldn't need to care about "friendly fire", hence calling specifically for Paladin - +CHA on saves, immune to frightened at 10).

Exactly like I'd definitely pick Kensei if overall the party was varied enough in control options, but we had no ranged martial.

Exactly like I'd pick Sun Soul if the situation felt it was the best choice (undead-themed campaign, campaign that will end before level 10 and need of AOE -all cumulative factors, otherwise definitely 4e).

Exactly like I'd pick 4E in many other situations, simply because I can change disciplines as party tactics (and mine) evolve.

That's being when I pick an archetype "to fit in".
But choosing "depending on party" is never mandatory, choosing what you just like then actively think to use your abilities in synergy with others work too.

For choosing "by myself and for myself", honestly I like all archetypes, but my top three are definitely 4E, Shadow and Kensei.
Open Hand is extremely bland (you'll do the exact same thing from level 3 to level 17 -at least Shadow abilities can feel varied because the situations can bear different contexts of using the spells even if you ultimately do always the same few tricsk) and does not even do anything to shore up Monk's weak areas (contrarily to Kensei).
Long Death is roughly the same (in regular parties, Fear is kinda hard to land usefully at low levels imx, so you're basically a plain Monk with extra resilience).
Drunken Master is fun to play, but requires even more finesse than regular Monk, and I'm not always up for it.
Sun Soul is fun to play for a while, but apart from the occasional AOE nova exactly as bland as Open Hand so personally playing a few times was enough for me (I'd pick it only if really the campaign made it extra fitting).

[Skylivedk]

My mistake; I forgot Silence wasn't a Wizard spell. The point still stands that none of the spells the Shadow Monk gets are any more unique than those 4E gets; them all being on a single caster is not, necessarily a good thing either, even if it is thematic.

PWT and Darkvision won't compete for actions, but Darkness, Silence and Minor Illusion absolutely can and will. When 3/5 of the spells a feature gives you compete for actions, especially given that one of the ones that doesn't (Darkvision) is rarely, if ever, going to be used at all (depending on build), I think we can say that the feature does in general.

I'm not trying to "prove" that Shadow Monks are bad or anything, so much as asking the question of why they're rated so much higher than 4E. The point is that many, most, if not all the arguments being levelled against 4E can easily be fired at both Shadow and Open Hand; "doesn't synergise with other Monk features", "costs Ki", "competes for Actions", "doesn't compare favourably to other spellcasters"...4E is not alone in these regards. What makes 4E worse? Is it just the perceived high cost?

Not really. Shadow Monk has cheaper abilities, gets them faster and has features on top of the spells that are both strong and thematic.

If you look at tier 1-2 the Shadow Monk has 50%-100% more spells at a lower cost plus a crazy nice free ability as well. That's some significant differences. They also get level 2 spells at lvl 3 rather than 6.

On top of that, the action economy argument is not solid either since both minor illusion, darkness and pass without trace are often more useful out of combat (or can be precast on a pebble in medallion that can open and close in the case of darkness) than in combat.

In terms of design space, the Shadow Monk uses a fourth of its subclass features to reach the same number of spells. For the other three it gets always on features where none of them are strictly bad and one of them is amongst the best gotten by any class at that level (60 ft teleport for a bonus action would make most martials sick with envy - I'd take it over/as an ASI on most any day)

[Zalabim]

It's a common mistake, but 4 elements do get 2nd level spells at level 3. They then get more at level 6.

[Skylivedk]

It's a common mistake, but 4 elements do get 2nd level spells at level 3. They then get more at level 6.

You're right. Gust of wind (which also breaks with the ki cost convention of lvl+1). I had forgotten about it, probably because I have never seen it used. Did I miss others since you use plural?

[JellyPooga]

Not really. Shadow Monk has cheaper abilities, gets them faster and has features on top of the spells that are both strong and thematic.

If you look at tier 1-2 the Shadow Monk has 50%-100% more spells at a lower cost plus a crazy nice free ability as well. That's some significant differences. They also get level 2 spells at lvl 3 rather than 6.

On top of that, the action economy argument is not solid either since both minor illusion, darkness and pass without trace are often more useful out of combat (or can be precast on a pebble in medallion that can open and close in the case of darkness) than in combat.

In terms of design space, the Shadow Monk uses a fourth of its subclass features to reach the same number of spells. For the other three it gets always on features where none of them are strictly bad and one of them is amongst the best gotten by any class at that level (60 ft teleport for a bonus action would make most martials sick with envy - I'd take it over/as an ASI on most any day)

I'll say it again; I'm not saying Shadow Monk is bad. I'm saying it's comparable to 4E because the arguments people use against 4E also apply to Shadow. Not quoting anyone, but paraphrasing, here's some of them;

"It competes for Ki" and "You're better off just using Flurry or Stunning Strike": Shadow Arts might be cheaper, but it's not free. All of the 3rd level Disciplines cost 2 Ki points or less, which is the same cost as Shadow Arts, not more as you contend. Regardless of the level of the spells in question, the Ki expenditure is similar. Is a Darkness spell inherently more valuable than Gust of Wind or Thunderwave? Situationally yes, of course Darkness can be an amazing tool, but you won't be using Darkness or PWT when what you need is to create an ice bridge in a hurry, or Scorpion an enemy to "Get over here!" with Water Whip. The point is that whether you're using Shadow Arts or a (3rd lvl) Disclipline, you're still forgoing the same number of Flurries or Stuns.

"It competes for Actions": Yes, most Disciplines do take an Action that could be spent on doing another Monk thing, like punching someone in the face. So does casting Silence or Darkness, or using your Cloak of Shadows. You argue that certain Shadow Arts can be cast and/or are useful outside of combat and as such action competition isn't as much of an issue for Shadow Monks...well, yeah, but the same is true of a lot of Disciplines. What's your point? Shape the Flowing River is an awesome utility Discipline that can be used both in and out of combat and is Ki-cheaper than Shadow Arts. Shatter can be used for more than just combat AoE. Gaseous Form arguably grants better stealth/infiltration potential than the whole of the Shadow Monk package put together. Shall I continue? Further, the Action economy is entirely based on opportunity cost; being able to punch someones lungs out and stun-lock a single foe is great, but it's a waste of actions and possibly resources compared to a solid AoE blast if you're fighting a dozen goblins. Having abilities that trigger when you do something that you'd do anyway is great...but how many Shadow Monk features do that?

"It's not as good as other spellcasting subclasses": Setting aside the contention that 4E is supposed to be a "spellcasting subclass" at all; As many defenders of Shadow Monk, including yourself, are quick to point out, Shadow Monk gets more spells and quicker than 4E does. Why is Shadow Monk not called out for this same reason? What makes 4E a "spellcasting subclass" and Shadow not? Three of the four features Shadow Monk get are functionally spells; in effect if not by name, so if 4E is a spellcasting subclass, surely so should Shadow be. 4E Monk eventually gets access to 5th level spells; higher than an Eldritch Knight or Arcane Trickster is capable of and equal to Ranger or Paladin, at least in terms of spell level available. Is that really so unfavourable? Shadow Monk only gets 2nd level spells and effects; who's the worse spellcaster?

"There's no synergy": Aside from being false, what's so synergistic about Shadow Monk? Ok, Shadow Step is good and synergises well with the Monk modus operandi, but it's really just replacing and improving on something the Monk chassis does well already; mobility. Shadow Arts and Cloak of Shadows add solid Stealth capability to the Monk, but as I've mentioned before, the Monk chassis is not inherently stealth focused and doesn't have any abilities that Shadow Monk is really enhancing or capitalising on; this is adding a feature, not synergism. Opportunist is, if anything, anti-synergy; it is predicated on sitting next to a target to be any use at all; largely speaking the last place a Monk wants to be, especially at 17th level. So that's one feature that has synergy, but is replacing/competing with base chassis features that have similar effect, two features that add an additional function and one that is entirely counter to the core theme. Is that really so different to what 4E offers?

As I say, I'm not trying to drag Shadow Monk through the dirt, I'm trying to understand what makes people see Shadow Monk as good and 4E as not, when as far as I can see, the arguments for Shadow and against 4E largely apply to both. The main and perhaps only difference being that 4E Disciplines all cost Ki, while Shadow Monk (and other Monk subclasses) get "free" features. But...shouldn't that be the case? Those higher level 4E Disciplines tend to be better in their effects. Compare Cloak of Shadows to Ride the Wind; one is worse than a situational Invisibility and the other is Fly; no caveats, no conditions, except it's self-only. At 11th level, I wouldn't pay for Cloak of Shadows, but I'll gladly pay for Fly.

[Zalabim]

You're right. Gust of wind (which also breaks with the ki cost convention of lvl+1). I had forgotten about it, probably because I have never seen it used. Did I miss others since you use plural?

They're not spells, but Water Whip and Fist of Unbroken Air would be the most powerful level 1 attack spells, so they're probably considered level 2. They deal the damage of Inflict Wounds, with a solid damage type, some range, extra effects, and still deal half damage on a save. There's really nothing to compare the others to (fire snake and flowing river), but they're cheap so they feel like level 1 effects.

[Specter]

I'll say it again; I'm not saying Shadow Monk is bad. I'm saying it's comparable to 4E because the arguments people use against 4E also apply to Shadow. Not quoting anyone, but paraphrasing, here's some of them;

"It competes for Ki" and "You're better off just using Flurry or Stunning Strike": Shadow Arts might be cheaper, but it's not free. All of the 3rd level Disciplines cost 2 Ki points or less, which is the same cost as Shadow Arts, not more as you contend. Regardless of the level of the spells in question, the Ki expenditure is similar. Is a Darkness spell inherently more valuable than Gust of Wind or Thunderwave? Situationally yes, of course Darkness can be an amazing tool, but you won't be using Darkness or PWT when what you need is to create an ice bridge in a hurry, or Scorpion an enemy to "Get over here!" with Water Whip. The point is that whether you're using Shadow Arts or a (3rd lvl) Disclipline, you're still forgoing the same number of Flurries or Stuns.

"It competes for Actions": Yes, most Disciplines do take an Action that could be spent on doing another Monk thing, like punching someone in the face. So does casting Silence or Darkness, or using your Cloak of Shadows. You argue that certain Shadow Arts can be cast and/or are useful outside of combat and as such action competition isn't as much of an issue for Shadow Monks...well, yeah, but the same is true of a lot of Disciplines. What's your point? Shape the Flowing River is an awesome utility Discipline that can be used both in and out of combat and is Ki-cheaper than Shadow Arts. Shatter can be used for more than just combat AoE. Gaseous Form arguably grants better stealth/infiltration potential than the whole of the Shadow Monk package put together. Shall I continue? Further, the Action economy is entirely based on opportunity cost; being able to punch someones lungs out and stun-lock a single foe is great, but it's a waste of actions and possibly resources compared to a solid AoE blast if you're fighting a dozen goblins. Having abilities that trigger when you do something that you'd do anyway is great...but how many Shadow Monk features do that?

"It's not as good as other spellcasting subclasses": Setting aside the contention that 4E is supposed to be a "spellcasting subclass" at all; As many defenders of Shadow Monk, including yourself, are quick to point out, Shadow Monk gets more spells and quicker than 4E does. Why is Shadow Monk not called out for this same reason? What makes 4E a "spellcasting subclass" and Shadow not? Three of the four features Shadow Monk get are functionally spells; in effect if not by name, so if 4E is a spellcasting subclass, surely so should Shadow be. 4E Monk eventually gets access to 5th level spells; higher than an Eldritch Knight or Arcane Trickster is capable of and equal to Ranger or Paladin, at least in terms of spell level available. Is that really so unfavourable? Shadow Monk only gets 2nd level spells and effects; who's the worse spellcaster?

"There's no synergy": Aside from being false, what's so synergistic about Shadow Monk? Ok, Shadow Step is good and synergises well with the Monk modus operandi, but it's really just replacing and improving on something the Monk chassis does well already; mobility. Shadow Arts and Cloak of Shadows add solid Stealth capability to the Monk, but as I've mentioned before, the Monk chassis is not inherently stealth focused and doesn't have any abilities that Shadow Monk is really enhancing or capitalising on; this is adding a feature, not synergism. Opportunist is, if anything, anti-synergy; it is predicated on sitting next to a target to be any use at all; largely speaking the last place a Monk wants to be, especially at 17th level. So that's one feature that has synergy, but is replacing/competing with base chassis features that have similar effect, two features that add an additional function and one that is entirely counter to the core theme. Is that really so different to what 4E offers?

As I say, I'm not trying to drag Shadow Monk through the dirt, I'm trying to understand what makes people see Shadow Monk as good and 4E as not, when as far as I can see, the arguments for Shadow and against 4E largely apply to both. The main and perhaps only difference being that 4E Disciplines all cost Ki, while Shadow Monk (and other Monk subclasses) get "free" features. But...shouldn't that be the case? Those higher level 4E Disciplines tend to be better in their effects. Compare Cloak of Shadows to Ride the Wind; one is worse than a situational Invisibility and the other is Fly; no caveats, no conditions, except it's self-only. At 11th level, I wouldn't pay for Cloak of Shadows, but I'll gladly pay for Fly.

Yeah, all this.

[Skylivedk]

I'll say it again; I'm not saying Shadow Monk is bad. I'm saying it's comparable to 4E because the arguments people use against 4E also apply to Shadow. Not quoting anyone, but paraphrasing, here's some of them;

I naturally cannot answer on behalf of others without their consent nor take responsibility for their utterings. I'll address where I differ and where I see any side having made points that haven't been acknowledged. Main thing of the bat: I explicitly made an effort to show how why people find they are not directly comparable.

"It competes for Ki" and "You're better off just using Flurry or Stunning Strike": Shadow Arts might be cheaper, but it's not free. All of the 3rd level Disciplines cost 2 Ki points or less, which is the same cost as Shadow Arts, not more as you contend.

Regardless of the level of the spells in question, the Ki expenditure is similar. Is a Darkness spell inherently more valuable than Gust of Wind or Thunderwave? Situationally yes, of course Darkness can be an amazing tool, but you won't be using Darkness or PWT when what you need is to create an ice bridge in a hurry, or Scorpion an enemy to "Get over here!" with Water Whip. The point is that whether you're using Shadow Arts or a (3rd lvl) Disclipline, you're still forgoing the same number of Flurries or Stuns.

Maybe I was unclear. Gust of wind is an exception, but otherwise 4e monks pay lvl+1 in ki for a spell where Shadow pays 2 Ki. And yes, generally speaking I think Darkness, Silence and Pass without Trace can be said to be more powerful. They're above average to great for lvl 2 spells, easily beating level one spells. Gust of wind is normally seen to be low tier. I do find it better on a monk than on a full caster.

I'd be thrilled to have Silence as a level 1 spell and meh about having gust of wind. I'd never take Burning Hands/Thunderwave as a level 2 spell (no upcasting). I definitely think the non-spells seem the most fun out of the 4e features. In other words, same price doesn't make sense. When it comes to spell equivalents, 4e gets a monowheel for the price of a bike

"It competes for Actions": Yes, most Disciplines do take an Action that could be spent on doing another Monk thing, like punching someone in the face. So does casting Silence or Darkness, or using your Cloak of Shadows. You argue that certain Shadow Arts can be cast and/or are useful outside of combat and as such action competition isn't as much of an issue for Shadow Monks...well, yeah, but the same is true of a lot of Disciplines. What's your point? Shape the Flowing River is an awesome utility Discipline that can be used both in and out of combat and is Ki-cheaper than Shadow Arts.

I love Flowing River, I fully agree it's awesome. In this case: if you take it at level 3, that's almost all you get. You have a prestidigitation level power as well, but nothing more. Speed of power acquisition matters, and in this case 4e is clearly behind between lvl 3 and 6. They only get access to one effect of their own choice and most of their choices are high-tier level 1/low tier level 2 spells. When they get a less restricted access to level 2 spells, Shadow Monk gets an ability similar to one of the most popular level 2 spells (misty step), but for free and arguably better.

Shatter can be used for more than just combat AoE. Gaseous Form arguably grants better stealth/infiltration potential than the whole of the Shadow Monk package put together.

3d8 = 13,5 avg. damage to objects while making a ton of noise... Yeah, it doesn't scream great utility to me.

How do you reach the conclusion about gaseous form? It honestly makes you seem to ride against the winds of evidence.

Shadow step can get through a lot of the same places as gaseous form (keyholes, under doors etc) and it doesn't take concentration (neither do cloak of shadows), so both can be used with pass without trace plus you can get your team with you without having to burn points by switching around. For example: getting to the other side of a big door/hate to the lever that opens it? Shadow Monk is better.

Shall I continue? Further, the Action economy is entirely based on opportunity cost; being able to punch someones lungs out and stun-lock a single foe is great, but it's a waste of actions and possibly resources compared to a solid AoE blast if you're fighting a dozen goblins. Having abilities that trigger when you do something that you'd do anyway is great...but how many Shadow Monk features do that?

Please do. I'm not even a Shadow Monk-fan. I want to like the 4e-monk more, but I'm just not seeing it. Well, if you picked AoE you don't have Flowing River. At level 6 you can have both and Water Whip (which looks like my default loadout if I were to 4e), but that's three levels later and roughly speaking your toolbox is still half of the Shadow Monk's at that point. If I'm fighting a dozen goblins, darkness seems great (especially with Alert). Of course it depends on the party composition whether it's a good idea. Shadow step and superior speed will also help you deal with the situation. Also, a lot of Shadow Monk abilities trigger like you mention:
Shadow Step: whenever you need it, trigger it.
Cloak of Shadow: every time you are out of combat, it can be automatically activated.
Opportunist: you and the ranged part of the party focuses on the backline? Go.

"It's not as good as other spellcasting subclasses": Setting aside the contention that 4E is supposed to be a "spellcasting subclass" at all; As many defenders of Shadow Monk, including yourself, are quick to point out, Shadow Monk gets more spells and quicker than 4E does. Why is Shadow Monk not called out for this same reason? What makes 4E a "spellcasting subclass" and Shadow not? Three of the four features Shadow Monk get are functionally spells; in effect if not by name, so if 4E is a spellcasting subclass, surely so should Shadow be.

Agreed and Shadow Monk is a spell casting subclass in my book. It's also more! While 4e isn't that much more post level 3 (maybe I'm missing something, but 4e only unlocks spells from the subclass for later levels, right?). I think that's why Shadow Monk didn't get the same predicate. SMs don't grow as casters, 4es do.

4E Monk eventually gets access to 5th level spells; higher than an Eldritch Knight or Arcane Trickster is capable of and equal to Ranger or Paladin, at least in terms of spell level available. Is that really so unfavourable? Shadow Monk only gets 2nd level spells and effects; who's the worse spellcaster?

In tier 3-4, 4E, I'd say. I try to avoid starting in tier 1 anymore, but most people apparently play mostly tier 1 and 2 which is probably why 4e feels off to them. I really don't understand why they didn't give at least one extra discipline on 3 and 6. Game is game as the DOTA player would lament.

"There's no synergy": Aside from being false, what's so synergistic about Shadow Monk? Ok, Shadow Step is good and synergises well with the Monk modus operandi, but it's really just replacing and improving on something the Monk chassis does well already; mobility. Shadow Arts and Cloak of Shadows add solid Stealth capability to the Monk, but as I've mentioned before, the Monk chassis is not inherently stealth focused and doesn't have any abilities that Shadow Monk is really enhancing or capitalising on; this is adding a feature, not synergism.

You mentioned it before and I silently disagreed. Being fast and without an armour giving disadvantage already puts the Monk in the upper tiers of Stealth if it wants too. You don't get expertise, granted, but otherwise you are as stealth focused as they come. High Dex and Wis, Evasion and good mobility... Sounds like a scout to me.

Opportunist is, if anything, anti-synergy; it is predicated on sitting next to a target to be any use at all; largely speaking the last place a Monk wants to be, especially at 17th level. So that's one feature that has synergy, but is replacing/competing with base chassis features that have similar effect, two features that add an additional function and one that is entirely counter to the core theme. Is that really so different to what 4E offers?

Why don't you want to be next to the enemy Wizard while your sniper shoots at them?

On my count it's:
3rd level:
Minor illusion roughly the same as Elemental Attunement

4E
1 ki burner, effect of a lvl 1-2 spell. Either you add to your combat capacity or your utility, rarely both. Your combat choice competes for action economy.

Vs
SM
3 choices of ki-burners, all level 2 (not counting darkness since I presume you'd cast that prior to going into the dungeon). 2 of them are often pre-castable, one of them, PWT, pretty much exclusively so, while darkness is a mix of in and out of combat. Silence is stupid good against MM-casters, especially if the DM didn't change their spells.

6th
4e
One more ki-gobbler competing for actions
Lvl 2 effect.

SM
About double of a level 2 effect for no ki.

11th
4e
Same as 6th

Vs

Free, never-ending and concentration less Invisibility.

17th
4e
Same

Vs

Free ability, helping you kill backline quickly.


I don't see it.

As I say, I'm not trying to drag Shadow Monk through the dirt, I'm trying to understand what makes people see Shadow Monk as good and 4E as not, when as far as I can see, the arguments for Shadow and against 4E largely apply to both. The main and perhaps only difference being that 4E Disciplines all cost Ki, while Shadow Monk (and other Monk subclasses) get "free" features. But...shouldn't that be the case? Those higher level 4E Disciplines tend to be better in their effects. Compare Cloak of Shadows to Ride the Wind; one is worse than a situational Invisibility and the other is Fly; no caveats, no conditions, except it's self-only. At 11th level, I wouldn't pay for Cloak of Shadows, but I'll gladly pay for Fly.

Fly is great. It does have conditions though. It's a concentration spell and has V and S components.

I never argued that good abilities should be free. Quick math for me also says that the homebrew 4e that was linked to earlier would be too strong with all/most disciplines reduced by 1 in cost (they'd cast 3 fireballs at level 9 with the warlock stuck to 2 lvl 5 spells; IMO too much compared to the SR-full caster).

Infinite invisibility is also all kinds of neat. I'm not too fussed about the discipline cost to be honest. I'd maybe give the 4e monks a discount if they were close to a large body of the element they invoke (or cast at a level higher). Where they falter the most IMO is in how few disciplines they get. They simply get too few and I don't understand why. They wouldn't break the game with more.

They're not spells, but Water Whip and Fist of Unbroken Air would be the most powerful level 1 attack spells, so they're probably considered level 2. They deal the damage of Inflict Wounds, with a solid damage type, some range, extra effects, and still deal half damage on a save. There's really nothing to compare the others to (fire snake and flowing river), but they're cheap so they feel like level 1 effects.

I'd say Water Whip is better than Fire Snake in the right party (grapplers, crit-fishers or melee heavy). Again, it's more the low amount of disciplines that is annoying here.

Just one more discipline on level 3 and 6 would go so far (or for the very cautious: an extra at 3).