Elephant Costs?

[sandmote]

So, according to the DMG a CR 4 elephant is 200 gp. Or half a CR 1/2 warhorse. I don't find that useable.

At around 20 times the diet, a team of specialists to obtain, and a separate team to train them, 8,000 gp for the elephant sounds more reasonable. More than the keelboat, but not quite the other vessels. I'm thinking two (medium) people max for an unadorned elephant or one wearing a chariot, and three with a 500 gp, 150 lb platform on it. Feed and stabling at 1 gp per day each. Not sure what to do for barding; 10x the price and 5x the weight?

Any additional thoughts would be helpful. Or rundowns for other exotic mounts, I'm not picky. I'd mostly like to make it so the options are based on strength, rarity, and/or usefulness. And the conveyance seems it should be easier to come by than the self-propelling battering ram. It wasn't for replacing one cavalryman each that war elephants went away in the Mediterranean and were ignored in China.

---

Okay, adding a table to track modifier prices:

Item	Cost	Speed	Carrying Capacity
Camel	50 gp	50 ft.	480 lb.
Donkey (or Mule)	8 gp	40 ft.	420 lb.
Draft Horse	50 gp	40 ft.	540 lb.
Riding Horse	75 gp	60 ft	480 lb.
Mastiff	25 gp	40 ft	195 lb.
Pony	30 gp	40 ft.	225 lbs.
War Pony	(new) 150 gp	40 ft.	TBD lb.
Warhorse	400 gp	60 ft.	540 lbs.
Elephant	200 gp 800 gp	40 ft.	1320 lb.
War Elephant	(new) 6400 gp	40 ft.	1320 lb.
Ox	15 gp 100 gp	40 ft.	1080 lb.
Elk	(None) 105 gp	50 ft.	480 lb.
Aurochs	(None) 400 gp	50 ft.	600 lb.
Axe Beak	(None) 52 gp	50 ft.	420 lb.
Giant Lizard	100 gp 150 gp	30 ft., 30 climb	450 lb.
Giant Sea Horse	(none) 50 gp	0 ft., 40 swim	360 lb.
Giant Sea Hare	(none) 75 gp	15 ft., 35 swim	390 lb.
Giant Sea Eel	(none) 100 gp	0 ft., 40 swim	330 lb.
Manta	(new) 600 gp	0 ft., 45 swim	1320 lb.
Hadrosaur	50 gp	40 ft.	1080 lb.
Ankylosaurus	250 gp 570 gp	30 ft.	1140 lb.
Deinonychus	250 gp 200 gp	40 ft.	225 lb.
Triceratops	500 gp 1050 gp	50 ft.	1320 lb.
Giant Bat	(none) 220 gp	10 ft., 60 fly	450 lb.

Price Calculations:

• Mounts listed in book get "familiarity discount." For all but the elephant this is the book price. Also applying it to the giant sea horse because it is the books' primary underwater mount.
• 200 gp * CR as a starting point
• x1.5 for a mount with additional benefits, x2 if they (like flight) confer a significant benefits.
• base speed is 40'. modify by x.95 for a mount with 30 speed, x1.05 for a mount with 50' speed, & x1.10 for a mount with 60' speed.
• training with barding & to attack on command is x1.5, mage training is x2
• bringing an animal to be trained is half the price of buying it.

Additional benefits include a small number of extra legs, swim & climb speeds on top of movement speed or a big jump in carry capacity. Significant battlefield benefits include flight,more than 6 legs, and being worth well more than the buy price in produce.

[Chronos]

Well, most of the cost of a warhorse isn't the horse itself; it's the training. A warhorse won't spook on a battlefield and trample whoever's closest, while most animals (including elephants) will.

But yeah, 400 definitely sounds too cheap for them. 2nd edition had them a 1000; I don't know if 3rd ever gave a figure.

[DrKerosene]

Well, most of the cost of a warhorse isn't the horse itself; it's the training. A warhorse won't spook on a battlefield and trample whoever's closest, while most animals (including elephants) will.

But yeah, 400 definitely sounds too cheap for them. 2nd edition had them a 1000; I don't know if 3rd ever gave a figure.

The Arms & Equipment Guide says you can buy a young elephant for 500gp. I don’t know the rules for time of general training and/or training for war, or how much feed it would need during that time, but I do expect a properly trained adult elephant to cost thousands of gold (to include a worthwhile profit too).

[sandmote]

Well, most of the cost of a warhorse isn't the horse itself; it's the training. A warhorse won't spook on a battlefield and trample whoever's closest, while most animals (including elephants) will.

But yeah, 400 definitely sounds too cheap for them. 2nd edition had them a 1000; I don't know if 3rd ever gave a figure.

I'm not familiar with the differences/distinctions in training between horse types, so I'll add the table from the 5e SRD:

Item	Cost	Speed	Carrying Capacity
Camel	50 gp	50 ft.	480 lb.
Donkey (or Mule)	8 gp	40 ft.	420 lb.
Elephant	200 gp	40 ft.	1320 lb.
Draft Horse	50 gp	40 ft.	540 lb.
Riding Horse	75 gp	60 ft	480 lb.
Mastiff	25 gp	40 ft	195 lb.
Pony	30 gp	40 ft.	225 lbs.
Warhorse	400 gp	60 ft.	540 lbs.

Although I doubt an in-game mount will be treated has having different training.

The Arms & Equipment Guide says you can buy a young elephant for 500gp. I don’t know the rules for time of general training and/or training for war, or how much feed it would need during that time, but I do expect a properly trained adult elephant to cost thousands of gold (to include a worthwhile profit too).

Unrelated, we really need an "Arms & Equipment" Chapter included in a 5e book.

Assuming a "young elephant," is 5 years old (ie. weaned), you're selling it at 17 (breeding age), and a year is 365 days, then you're looking at 2,409 gp in SRD feeding and stabling in that time, or 1,204.5 if providing it yourself. An equivalent elephant is 8,760 gp in my scaled feeding costs unless I treat the trainers as producing the feed and stabling themselves for only 4380 gp in that time.

At 8,000 per elephant that's 3120 gp left over to pay for the work, or 260 gp per year (including early life training in the cost of a young elephant). Of people required for training (where you break even) I prefer 20 trainers who are wealthy, 50 aids with a comfortable lifestyle, and 80 laborers of modest means. Note this is pay per elephant; a blacksmith providing equipment for 4 elephants during each year can live a wealthy lifestyle but only gains modest pay from each beast.

[Fable Wright]

So, according to the DMG a CR 4 elephant is 200 gp. Or half a CR 1/2 warhorse. I don't find that useable.

At around 20 times the diet, a team of specialists to obtain, and a separate team to train them, 8,000 gp for the elephant sounds more reasonable. More than the keelboat, but not quite the other vessels. I'm thinking two (medium) people max for an unadorned elephant or one wearing a chariot, and three with a 500 gp, 150 lb platform on it. Feed and stabling at 1 gp per day each. Not sure what to do for barding; 10x the price and 5x the weight?

Neat. So stabling a horse is 5sp per day. A draft horse is broken in and able to be sold at age 4. So it should cost (365 days/year * 4 years * 0.5 gold per day =) 730 gp per draft horse. Or 365gp providing it yourself. Just for the feeding costs. Hiring the expert laborers for training, breaking in, and so on should be far more expensive. Twice as expensive as a warhorse, bare minimum.

What I'm trying to say is, you're using a flawed calculation metric.

An elephant of burden is 8 times more than a horse of burden. A war elephant therefore costs 1,600gp, eight times the price of a war horse. Using my standard rule of thumb where 1 copper = $1 USD, this is $160,000. This feels reasonable to me.

Also, please recall that in the places where elephants are used to transport goods, they can be owned by farmer families and trained by farmers. In the locale where they are native to, they are like a team of horses or oxen, both in feed costs and output. They should not be so unreasonable that such people could not afford them with generation after generation of work.

[sandmote]

Also, please recall that in the places where elephants are used to transport goods, they can be owned by farmer families and trained by farmers. In the locale where they are native to, they are like a team of horses or oxen, both in feed costs and output.

I try to make my settings include a breadth of non-European influences, but have no familiarity with how domestic elephant keeping is done in places they are native. My knowledge on keeping elephants is really only from the cases of Rome and the Seleucid empire, where the comparison is to something like 50 cavalry per war elephant. Of which 20 to 1 is the ratio of feeding the elephant to combined costs of horse, rider, and stablehand.

So a failure on the distinction between farmer's and war elephants, sure. But unless you're having them graze out in a field for most of the year, I don't see how the feedsing costs are comparable to around 8 oxen/

Neat. So stabling a horse is 5sp per day. A draft horse is broken in and able to be sold at age 4. So it should cost (365 days/year * 4 years * 0.5 gold per day =) 730 gp per draft horse. Or 365gp providing it yourself. Just for the feeding costs. Hiring the expert laborers for training, breaking in, and so on should be far more expensive. Twice as expensive as a warhorse, bare minimum.

What I'm trying to say is, you're using a flawed calculation metric.

With the above comparison, the cost of keeping a horse at grass is 36.5 gp if you cost the feed the same. How are elephants kept in the places they are native? I don't know, and therefore am stuck using the calculations I'm aware of. For consistency, that would put the cost of an adult elephant at 3102.5 for the 1 gp food cost I've started with. Part of the reason I counted time with the mother outside that time taken to feed and stable, which is biased against the elephant in this comparison.

Not meaning the calculation was remotely accurate, but there's a lot of things that can be done to cut the costs of raising a horse that couldn't be done in the example costs I'm aware of for elephants.

An elephant of burden is 8 times more than a horse of burden. A war elephant therefore costs 1,600gp, eight times the price of a war horse. Using my standard rule of thumb where 1 copper = $1 USD, this is $160,000. This feels reasonable to me.

What is the origin of 8 times more?

They should not be so unreasonable that such people could not afford them with generation after generation of work.

I'm not aware of how common a full team of horses was in a pre-modern world either. Most farmers I expect to have a single donkey or mule used for basic plowing. Particularly given that some places set up a bunch of plots for each family instead of one big one. I'm more expecting that where they are used you'd see a couples teams of horses owned by a specialist who rents them out to the community to plow a bunch of small plots/ the regularly redistributed village fields at one time. Perhaps with a bunch of mules where this doesn't exist rather than any horses.

I suppose though this thread would need to be expanded to a general "calculating mount costs," to actually figure out a reasonable rate for the rarer stuff...

[Luccan]

This is a situation where cost should be associated with local availability, even if the economy is technically fixed if you go by the costs provided in the DMG and PHV. Maybe in a place where elephants are so common they can be used in farms they're (relatively) cheap. However, in the psuedo-medieval Fantasy Europe of many DnD realms, they're quite expensive since they must be imported.

[Fable Wright]

What is the origin of 8 times more?

Item	Cost	Speed	Carrying Capacity
Elephant	200 gp	40 ft.	1320 lb.
Draft Horse	50 gp	40 ft.	540 lb.
Warhorse	400 gp	60 ft.	540 lbs.

200/50=8.

EDIT:
(400/50)=8.

I try to make my settings include a breadth of non-European influences, but have no familiarity with how domestic elephant keeping is done in places they are native. My knowledge on keeping elephants is really only from the cases of Rome and the Seleucid empire, where the comparison is to something like 50 cavalry per war elephant. Of which 20 to 1 is the ratio of feeding the elephant to combined costs of horse, rider, and stablehand.

So a failure on the distinction between farmer's and war elephants, sure. But unless you're having them graze out in a field for most of the year, I don't see how the feedsing costs are comparable to around 8 oxen/

So I'm no expert. A quick googling shows that in its native environment, letting an elephant forage after dark, the elephant costs about $80 USD per day to keep, which I approximate in most games as 8 silver. (A loaf of bread is about 2 coppers/$2 in both places.)

I'm having trouble finding good places to find the cost of feeding oxen, but an 1840 report shows that it cost $1.125/day to feed an ox per day, which is about 3.4 silver/day during the winter after inflation from 1840 to 2020.

So it might actually be more comparable than you think.

I'm not aware of how common a full team of horses was in a pre-modern world either. Most farmers I expect to have a single donkey or mule used for basic plowing. Particularly given that some places set up a bunch of plots for each family instead of one big one. I'm more expecting that where they are used you'd see a couples teams of horses owned by a specialist who rents them out to the community to plow a bunch of small plots/ the regularly redistributed village fields at one time. Perhaps with a bunch of mules where this doesn't exist rather than any horses.

So, the thing is, things change dramatically after the invention of the steel plow that lets you use work horses to plow fields. Before this time, heavy clay soils tended to need 8 oxen to plow, while the average peasant family owned 2 oxen apiece, leading to communities pitching in together to get fields farmed. Mules absolutely cannot get there.

My point is, you're probably overthinking things in a way that detriments the game. Go with something simple. It costs 1,600gp to purchase an elephant in a non-native land, because those elephants are all war elephants. Let's say they cost about 1gp/day to feed in addition to local forage, and that's if you own the stable and grazing land and so are doing everything at-cost. Let's likewise assume it costs 5 copper to feed a horse per day if you own the stable and grazing land, to avoid driving the prices of horses to absurd inflation. So there's you 20 times stabling costs that you love so dearly. 1600gp is a lot, but it's a linear scale of book prices, so it's easy to remember and doesn't require overhauling the game.

[sandmote]

This is a situation where cost should be associated with local availability, even if the economy is technically fixed if you go by the costs provided in the DMG and PHV. Maybe in a place where elephants are so common they can be used in farms they're (relatively) cheap. However, in the psuedo-medieval Fantasy Europe of many DnD realms, they're quite expensive since they must be imported.

I try to avoid psuedo-medieval Fantasy Europe when I can, but simply have no estimates outside psudo-classical Mediterranean.

I'll see if I can scrounge up my shipping price formula. I had ones that reasonably worked for imports to the city of Rome during the empire, but my current party doesn't take much interest in economics. Note to Fable: it's linear, the least complicated I can do that still provides a variable modifier.

200/50=8.
...
So there's you 20 times stabling costs that you love so dearly.

If you check the first post, I don't find 200 gp a reasonable price. It's also 20 times feeding costs, not stabling; although it's not even that as this is an simplification of the 15-30 times larger food requirements in the source I could find. And what I love dearly is taking rules of thumb from the IRL sources I can get my hands on.

So I'm no expert. A quick googling shows that in its native environment, letting an elephant forage after dark, the elephant costs about $80 USD per day to keep, which I approximate in most games as 8 silver. (A loaf of bread is about 2 coppers/$2 in both places.)

I'm having trouble finding good places to find the cost of feeding oxen, but an 1840 report shows that it cost $1.125/day to feed an ox per day, which is about 3.4 silver/day during the winter after inflation from 1840 to 2020.

So it might actually be more comparable than you think.

3.4 silver/day for 1 season is eight and a half copper/day average. 1.13 silver using the classical era's 3 seasons. Although I have found comparable figures for modern elephant costs at 3000 Rs a day for 14 elephants. Slightly lower, but probably includes economies of scale.

What I have been able to find myself is a ratio of prices for oxen to draught horses, in which oxen sold for over double the price of a horse (on account of having edible meat). This would put a low-end price of a farm elephant at 800 gp. Applying the same ratio on a warhorse nets 6,400. Contrast a team of six (rather than four) horses, where a farm elephant is 150 gp on output for a 2,400 gp war elephant. In contrast to your scaling based on the book being at a 32,000 gp war elephant.

Basically, oxen and horses aren't interchangeable here, and you're going to get drastically variable figures from converting a team of them to elephant costs. Part of the reason I found a cavalry vs. elephantry comparison useful; it gives some semblance of a unit basis of exchange between the two beasts.

So, the thing is, things change dramatically after the invention of the steel plow that lets you use work horses to plow fields. Before this time, heavy clay soils tended to need 8 oxen to plow, while the average peasant family owned 2 oxen apiece, leading to communities pitching in together to get fields farmed. Mules absolutely cannot get there.

For heavy clay soils my understanding is that up 16 oxen could be needed. Whatever the (varying) methods for getting a full team together, I still don't see an average peasant family with a team of oxen or an equivalent.

My point is, you're probably overthinking things in a way that detriments the game. Go with something simple. It costs 1,600gp to purchase an elephant in a non-native land, because those elephants are all war elephants.

I'm having trouble taking this paragraph in good faith. I'm afraid I'm going to have to insist that getting a general ratio and applying it to the warhorse price is either "overthinking things," or "something simple," but not both.

While I appreciate the (very useful) prompts on what to search, I'm struggling not to treat you yourself as a rules lawyer trying to pull a fast one. It doesn't help that I have no clue what math you used to get to 1,600 gp. I see you started with "horse times eight," and then lose you. I don't expect advanced math, but the conclusion doesn't follow the arithmetic proposed.

[HappyDaze]

The elephant may sell for a low cost, but they'll get you on the shipping & handling charges.

[Fable Wright]

While I appreciate the (very useful) prompts on what to search, I'm struggling not to treat you yourself as a rules lawyer trying to pull a fast one. It doesn't help that I have no clue what math you used to get to 1,600 gp. I see you started with "horse times eight," and then lose you. I don't expect advanced math, but the conclusion doesn't follow the arithmetic proposed.

Draft Horse * 8 4 = one elephant.
War Horse * 8 4 = one war-elephant.

EDIT:
War Horse = Draft Horse * 8
War Elephant = Draft Elephant * 8

The issue here is that what I have been saying does not make sense, because I was conflating two different equations.

I'm having trouble taking this paragraph in good faith. I'm afraid I'm going to have to insist that getting a general ratio and applying it to the warhorse price is either "overthinking things," or "something simple," but not both.

Your initial strategy was to make up a feeding and stabling cost for elephants based on a seemingly arbitrary stabling cost and use those to generate a multi-thousand gold figure based off average lifespan from infancy purchase to the beginning of their useful life.

This has generated a multi-thousand gold figure for the elephants, but likewise appears to drive multi-hundred gold prices on simple draft horses.

I posit that this general process was 'overthinking things'.

Therefore, to keep things simple and easy to remember, I propose just multiplying horses * 4 to get elephants.

I posit that the linear scalar probably makes the most sense to handle it without overt confusion.

However, this was undercut by basic math fail on my part.

3.4 silver/day for 1 season is eight and a half copper/day average.

Perhaps I misspoke.

The document that I saw spoke of the cost of feeding oxen for five months without forage and averaged to $1.125 in 1840s USD. This averaged to approximately $33-34 modern USD per day over a 5 month period. This period might have been a number pulled out of thin air, or it might have been because late fall through early spring does may have too much forage available.

[Contrast]

I don't really know anything about elephants or horses so I don't have much to contribute here but...

200/50=8.

200/50=4

[JackPhoenix]

Draft Horse * 8 = one elephant.
War Horse * 8 = one war-elephant.

What makes you think "war elephants" exist and are any different from normal elephants? Warhorses are specifically bred for size and strength, while elephants aren't, they just get different training.

[HappyDaze]

What makes you think "war elephants" exist and are any different from normal elephants? Warhorses are specifically bred for size and strength, while elephants aren't, they just get different training.

In a fantasy world, there's no reason you couldn't breed elephants specifically for size/strength/aggressiveness.

[DrKerosene]

What makes you think "war elephants" exist and are any different from normal elephants? Warhorses are specifically bred for size and strength, while elephants aren't, they just get different training.

The difference between a draft horse and a warhose seems to be +2 Dex, +1 Con (nothing changed by this), +1 Wis, 20ft of movement speed, and the trampling charge ability.

I recall that 3.5e does have a “War Beast” template that can be added to any medium or larger animal that is not mindless. It basically gave a slight boost to Strength, Constitution, and Wisdom, as well as proficiency with light, medium, & heavy armor.

There was also a fair bit of information about generic rearing of animals with skill checks, guidelines for how many specific “tricks” they can learn depending on their Intelligence Score (and maybe feats/features of the trainer), in 3.0 and 3.5e materials.

Real life also has War Elephants from Hannibal and the second Punic war. So, I guess they exist as much as anything else being inserted by people who want more content than basic 5e provides.

Mind you, I’d expect War Elephants to be as expensive and rare as magic items in 5e, and I think a Wand Of Fireballs might be a better investment if you don’t want a volley of arrows, or a single spell like Cause Fear, to completely wreck the investment of a War Elephant

[JackPhoenix]

Real life also has War Elephants from Hannibal and the second Punic war.

Which were, as I've mentioned in the post you've quoted, the exact same elephants as the ones used for labor, only trained differently and equiped for battle. Elephants weren't really bred in captivity, rather, wild ones were tamed, and they were big and strong enough from the start, unlike horses.

[DrKerosene]

Which were, ... the exact same elephants as the ones used for labor, only trained differently and equiped for battle.

Sounds like a reasonable enough explanation for applying the Warbeast Template, which mostly just added the armor proficiencies.

[Tvtyrant]

Elephants are also tamed not domesticated and are extremely finicky. I would rule 400 is for just an elephant, training it is up to you and it is going to act out of line a lot. There are entire collage videos of tamed elephants getting annoyed with their trainers and hitting them, running away, demolishing all of the cars at a wedding, laying down and yelling until their owner gives up, holding their trainers up and holding them hostage etc. Beyond just the upkeep they need a berserk option like a golem for their tantrums.

[da newt]

African or Asian Elephant? (sounds like monty python bit) Male or Female? - there are some significant differences wrt size and temperament and combat use. Then there is the musth when the boys go all testosterone crazy ...

What about adding Mammoths to the conversation?

[JackPhoenix]

Why do people keep repeating the 400 figure? Elephant costs 200 gp.

[Democratus]

There isn't a very logical way to arrive at most of the prices given in the D&D books.

Things cost what they cost...because reasons.

Feel free to override any of them as the DM.

[Amdy_vill]

the Cost in DND are more about game balance then accuracy to the real world. from a balance point of view elephants have lass value then a war house. change it as you want but most players don't want an Elephant as it is so a change might just stop players from buying it all together.

[sandmote]

One thing I did get wrong in the above is the price of an ox; irrelevant of IRL ratios, the trade goods table lists an ox at 15 gp. At 3 silver per "chunk" of meat, that's no more than 50 of these in an ox. Also puts the price of an elephant derived from a team of oxen at 120 gp.

Basically, the more detail I go into the less coherent than the books are. Which is expected, (they're simplified) but it would be nice to get some more reasonable prices.

Your initial strategy was to make up a feeding and stabling cost for elephants based on a seemingly arbitrary stabling cost and use those to generate a multi-thousand gold figure based off average lifespan from infancy purchase to the beginning of their useful life.

This has generated a multi-thousand gold figure for the elephants, but likewise appears to drive multi-hundred gold prices on simple draft horses.

I posit that this general process was 'overthinking things'.

My initial strategy was to get a ratio and multiply it by the cost of a war horse. The same thing you're doing.

You seem to be confusing this with my later estimation of the number of humanoids involved in getting an elephant trained for combat. Which was done by taking the already determined elephant price and working backward. You may notice that calculation includes the price for a young elephant as provided by DrKerosene, which post dates the origin of my 8,000 gp figure.

The document that I saw spoke of the cost of feeding oxen for five months without forage and averaged to $1.125 in 1840s USD. This averaged to approximately $33-34 modern USD per day over a 5 month period. This period might have been a number pulled out of thin air, or it might have been because late fall through early spring does may have too much forage available.

I haven't found a better source, but I still don't think you can get a coherent position from this calculation. even if you weren't comparing with forage to without forage.

What makes you think "war elephants" exist and are any different from normal elephants? Warhorses are specifically bred for size and strength, while elephants aren't, they just get different training.

What can find for medieval sources contradicts this. What I can find says that horse type was based on build, sex, and gelding rather than a dedicated breeding program. So a destrier and a rouncey don't seem to be separate breeds.

African or Asian Elephant? (sounds like monty python bit) Male or Female? - there are some significant differences wrt size and temperament and combat use. Then there is the musth when the boys go all testosterone crazy ...

Presumably Asian elephants and I'm skipping the second question. Again, my starting point are the Seleucids, who imported elephants and used all the ones they had. And which were still larger than the Numidian North African Elephants the Romans had.

Maybe an item capable of sending a male musth elephant into would be preferable to an ability with the traditional durations and refresh periods. Probably a Str boost and/or damage reduction with a chance of the elephant going berserk. Initial approximation:

Must
When ready to mate, male elephants enter a state of must, in which they are far more aggressive and unpredictable. A musth male elephant gains a +4 bonus to its strength, and bludgeoning, slashing and piercing damage the elephant takes from non-magical weapons is reduced by 3.

Whenever a musth male starts its turn with half its hit points or fewer, roll a d6. On a 6, the elephant goes berserk. On each of its turns while berserk, the elephant attacks the nearest creature it can see. If no creature is near enough to move to and attack, the elephant attacks an object, with preference for an object smaller than itself. Once the elephant goes berserk, it continues to do so until it is destroyed or regains all its hit points.
A creature, if within 60 feet of the berserk elephant, can try to calm it by speaking firmly and persuasively. The elephant must be able to hear its creator, who must take an action to make a DC 15 Charisma (Persuasion) check. If the check succeeds, the elephant ceases being berserk. If it takes damage while still at half hit points or fewer, the elephant might go berserk again.

Must Drink
This concoction, when fed to an elephant capable of entering must causes the beast to enter such a state for 8 hours. Once used, it cannot cause an elephant to enter must again until the elephant finishes a long rest.

What about adding Mammoths to the conversation?

I started with the elephant because that's what's listed in the books. However, a standardized method of determining mount prices would be great. The more I look the worse it gets.

Why do people keep repeating the 400 figure? Elephant costs 200 gp.

I think it's a comparison to a warhorse vs. a draft horse and assuming the same ratio between an elephant trained to pull wagons/carry people and one trained for war.

the Cost in DND are more about game balance then accuracy to the real world. from a balance point of view elephants have lass value then a war house. change it as you want but most players don't want an Elephant as it is so a change might just stop players from buying it all together.

I think this has to do with the traditional dungeon where larger creatures don't fit. I DM an elephant as getting angry at being attacked and fighting where a horse must be controlled, so they have a far greater impact on battle when compared 1 to 1. An elephant can also take an average fireball. So given I don't typically scale construction to fit either, I find an elephant better than a warhorse where you can keep both.

[HappyDaze]

Things cost what they cost...because reasons.

In D&D, things cost what they cost because of NO reasons.

[Chronos]

You might not scale construction as a DM, but elephants always scale construction. That alley is too narrow for an elephant to fit? Not any more, it's not.

[sandmote]

You might not scale construction as a DM, but elephants always scale construction. That alley is too narrow for an elephant to fit? Not any more, it's not.

I love the image I get from this. Still, under 5e rules an elephant can't squeeze through a medium space, and I'm not sure how much they can break through cave/dungeon walls.

---

Given an ox can be used for everything a draft horse is but can also be butchered for meat, I'll go with the following:

Item	Cost	Speed	Carrying Capacity
Ox	100 gp	30 ft.	1080
Elephant	800 gp	40 ft.	1320
War Elephant	6,400 gp	40 ft.	1440

Assuming the book's "chunk" of meat is 1 lb., this gets you 333 pounds of edible meat from an ox, plus making elephants more expensive than a warhorse.

Based on the modifications a warhorse gets compared to the other horses, I'll set up the war elephant as follows. I'm focusing more on the principle of the buffs, so I've gone with the Str boost and extra HP compared to a riding horse.

Spoiler: War Elephant

Show

Huge beast, neutral

Armor Class 13 (natural armor)
Hit Points 105 (10d12+40)
Speed 40 ft.

STR DEX CON INT WIS CHA
24 (+7) 11 (+0) 18 (+4) 3 (-4) 12 (+1) 6 (-2)

Senses passive Perception 11
Languages --
Challenge 5 (1,800 XP)

Trampling Charge. If the elephant moves at least 20 feet straight toward a creature and then hits it with a gore attack on the same turn, that target must succeed on a DC 14 Strength saving throw or be knocked prone. If the target is prone, the elephant can make one stomp attack against it as a bonus action.

Actions
Gore. Melee Weapon Attack: +10 to hit, reach 5 ft., one target. Hit: 20 (3d8 + 7) piercing damage.

Stomp. Melee Weapon Attack: +10 to hit, reach 5 ft., one prone creature. Hit: 23 (3d10 + 7) bludgeoning damage.

Wasn't expecting to set up a separate block when I started the thread, but whatever gets a more reasonable result.

[Grim Portent]

I've done some math on this recently, the elephant looks decent compared to a warhorse, but I'd say that's more the warhorse being overpriced considering how meh it is. Elephants and warhorses aren't that great compared to the cheaper options. Warhorses are basically riding horses that are better at attacking things, which is rather pointless since that's what the rider is for.

Elephants are actually really bad for labour purposes in 5e. If you have them eat as much as in real life it costs 2-3 gold a day to feed them, unless you want them foraging for half the day. They can't actually carry or pull much more than a draft horse or ox can*, and those cost several times less to feed each day as well as costing less to buy.

The elephant is only really useful as a combat mount, and the presence or lack of training is honestly somewhat irrelevant considering how many PCs can just talk to it and ask nicely for it to help them. Real humans were capturing wild elephants and using them for war for thousands of years with nothing more than stick and carrot training methods, a person who can talk to it should find it easy by comparison.


*Specifically an elephant can pull a wagon load of 6600 pounds**, two oxen can pull 10800 pounds, eat a tenth of what the elephant does and only cost 15gp each. The elephant can only pull enough feed and water to feed itself for 6 days with no spare capacity for gear, adventuring supplies or similar. The oxen can pull enough that you can bring supplies for them, the entire party and a small army of hirelings for a week.

**About 1/3 of what real elephants can pull, and also less than a real draft horse can pull.

[jk7275]

*Specifically an elephant can pull a wagon load of 6600 pounds**, two oxen can pull 10800 pounds, eat a tenth of what the elephant does and only cost 15gp each. The elephant can only pull enough feed and water to feed itself for 6 days with no spare capacity for gear, adventuring supplies or similar. The oxen can pull enough that you can bring supplies for them, the entire party and a small army of hirelings for a week.

**About 1/3 of what real elephants can pull, and also less than a real draft horse can pull.

Oxen are cheap, strong and slow. How long will it take to travel 100 miles with oxen as compared to elephants or other pack animals?
Dragon magazine issue 94 has an article that might be of interest. It dealt with logistics and pack animals and mentions books that may be worth checking out

Something that might help in the long run with food costs is plant growth. Your doubling the amount of food grown

[Democratus]

In the Roman Empire, they conducted a fairly thorough study of logistics for the army. In particular, what was the most efficient way to carry supplies with the army.

They tested horses, mules, elephants, oxen, people...and found that the amount of food required for each ton of cargo carried was about the same no matter what creature was used. Larger creatures carried more, but ate proportionately more.

In the end they went with just having people carry most of the cargo - hence the legionnaires being known as "Marius' Mules".

[Grim Portent]

Oxen are cheap, strong and slow. How long will it take to travel 100 miles with oxen as compared to elephants or other pack animals?
Dragon magazine issue 94 has an article that might be of interest. It dealt with logistics and pack animals and mentions books that may be worth checking out

Something that might help in the long run with food costs is plant growth. Your doubling the amount of food grown

The players handbook specifies that vehicles and mounts don't increase travel speed regardless of their own speed. A riding horse has 60 feet of tactical movement, but has the same travel rate as an ox, elephant, riding dog or old man with a cane. Slow, normal or fast paced travel are all fixed speeds of 2,3 and 4 miles an hour.

Mounts, but not animals hitched to vehicles, let you travel double fast pace for one hour, or 8 miles in one hour.

If there are supplemental rules for faster animals having faster travel times somewhere, then the ox is ten feet slower than the elephant who is in turn ten feet slower than the draft horse. So the elephant still loses out to the cheaper options for cargo hauling. Oxen are the most cost efficient, draft horses are the second most cost efficient and fastest, elephants are the best for squishing things.

I was trying to work out the best way to feed an elephant if you can't rely on forage due to terrain or spare the time for foraging, and it turns out it's easiest to just have oxen pulling a wagon of feed and water while the elephant just carries it's armour, riders and their gear.


An elephant is strictly speaking not a great combat mount for traditional mounted combat anyway. Even if trained to accept a rider it can't attack if it's being controlled by the rider. In order for it to use it's attacks it needs to be left uncontrolled, which basically means it'll do what it wants and may not close with enemies. If being controlled it can only dodge, disengage and dash. As a mount it's more of a meaty siege tower that you should have several ranged characters hang out on top of than a trampling death machine. Unless you have someone who can talk to animals anyway, then it's both a siege tower and a death machine provided you can convince it to squish things.