Elephant Costs?

[sandmote]

1000 pounds of elephant meat sells for then 1000 pounds of beef. People are willing to pay a lot more for a pound of meat from an elephant then an ox

Are you missing a "more," in the first sentence? These two things can't both be true at the same time.

How been attempts has there been to try to use camels on a large scale outside of the desert? The army was testing camels but that was cut short by the civil war. I seen comments that Bactrian camels can handle temperatures as low as –20°F. I seen conversations over why Europe used horses instead of camels and it wasn't only because of the climate. Horses are easier to handle and train. Horses are also better for herding animals

Yes, but horses aren't really an option everywhere, so I'd like a price. With the meat equivalent ox, that should be somewhere in the same range. Price should also be modulated by resources gained, and for simplicity's sake I'd rank the cow's milk and camel's fur + less milk comparable.

An ox lives 20 years and from what I read you only get about 10 years of work from them. Camels live 40 to 50 years and elephants about 70 to 80. How many more years of service to you get out of camels or elephants?. Camels have been known to carry a rider 80 miles in a day and elephants carried riders 50 miles . During the course of a camels life how much fur will you get that can be used to make clothing

The day to day cost for a work-age animal I expect to be fairly stable. The animal serves as a store of wealth, so you don't pay the price of its remaining lifetime work for the beast. With the meat and hide (or however usable they are) serving as the base price.

There is more then how much an animal can pull or carry its how fast it can get there. Time is money and what money you save by using ox is offset by taking longer to get there. Camels, horses and mules can haul stuff 2 to 3 far in a day as an ox. Using guidelines for pack animals the carrying capacity numbers in the book are too high if you want animals to haul stuff 8 hours a day 7 days a week . Teams of six animals would pull wagons that two animals could pull for that very reason

Your complaint is noted.

However, this exact same argument has been happening in the exact same capacity with PCs, who also carry more than a human reasonably could for 8 hours. I'm trying to create rules for a party's mounts that work within the 5e rules. Pleas leave this thread for that, and I'm sure you can find one debating how inaccurate carry capacities are.

If you want detailed rules for handling the logistics and cost for a small army or merchant caravan you might be better off using rules from another game.

Well, I'm running 5e. So if I want workable rules for handling the logistics and cost for a party I need to create them.

For a small party using an elephant or couple of horses/mules/camels create food and water is a possible solution or goodberry. Goodberry states "provides enough nourishment to sustain a creature for one day." and you can get 10. How many would an elephant need per day?

Interesting question. Assuming that "steeds" in the Create Food and Water spell is a baseline for large creatures, we can use the same initial scale. I'd go with a quadratic scaling, or 9 berries for an elephant. For completeness sake that's 27 berries for a gargantuan creature.

Alternatively a linear scale would work out to 5 berries for an elephant and 7 for a gargantuan creature. So quadratic sounds like it has more verisimilitude to me.

[huginn]

Yes, but horses aren't really an option everywhere, so I'd like a price. With the meat equivalent ox, that should be somewhere in the same range. Price should also be modulated by resources gained, and for simplicity's sake I'd rank the cow's milk and camel's fur + less milk comparable.

Camels milk is considered better for you then cows milk

The day to day cost for a work-age animal I expect to be fairly stable. The animal serves as a store of wealth, so you don't pay the price of its remaining lifetime work for the beast. With the meat and hide (or however usable they are) serving as the base price.

People will pay more for a mule then a horse in part because you get more years of work of a mule then a horse. You may not take into account how many years an animal can work but others do

Well, I'm running 5e. So if I want workable rules for handling the logistics and cost for a party I need to create them.

You want to add rules to your 5e campaign yet you don't seem to want to look at other games/earlier editions to see what rules they have and try to use them. You can use some rule from another game and still run a 5e campaign

Spells reduce the amount of food you need to bring or find. Spells can reduce training time and cost. There is the ioun stone of sustenance, come up with something that does the same thing for a mount. Magical horseshoes exist in 5e is there a issue with coming up with other magical items for mounts? There is always spell research. New spells or magic items may cost a lot but its a one time cost

Years ago I seen a discussion about undead mounts in d&d. Someone felt the best solution was to create undead animals to pull wagons and plow fields. His position was a zombie horse can work 24/7 and you never have to feed it. All you need is a modified version of animate dead

[sandmote]

Camels milk is considered better for you then cows milk

Camels produce less milk than cows do, which makes up the difference for me.

People will pay more for a mule then a horse in part because you get more years of work of a mule then a horse. You may not take into account how many years an animal can work but others do

This depends on what you can get from the animal. See my previously mentioned reasons for why a horse becomes cheaper with age. The difference is that the salable goods you can get from butchering an animal creates a price floor for the animal's worth. A fine breeder will be more expensive while an animal on its last legs will probably not sell for more than the butcher price. To get something usable for the party, I'm going to need a base price to modify from.

You want to add rules to your 5e campaign yet you don't seem to want to look at other games/earlier editions to see what rules they have and try to use them. You can use some rule from another game and still run a 5e campaign

Which games/editions? I'm using the 3.5e d&d prices for a riding horse (light horse) and warhorse (heavy warhorse). After all they were copied straight into 5e.

Spells reduce the amount of food you need to bring or find.

You mean like the Create Food and Water spell I already mentioned?

Years ago I seen a discussion about undead mounts in d&d. Someone felt the best solution was to create undead animals to pull wagons and plow fields. His position was a zombie horse can work 24/7 and you never have to feed it. All you need is a modified version of animate dead

Are you just musing out loud or are you trying to provide commentary for how much undead mounts would cost?

[huginn]

Camels produce less milk than cows do, which makes up the difference for me.

Your comparing modern cows that were bred to produce lots of milk to camels. Do cows in Africa on a piss poor diet produce a well feed cow in America?

This depends on what you can get from the animal. See my previously mentioned reasons for why a horse becomes cheaper with age. The difference is that the salable goods you can get from butchering an animal creates a price floor for the animal's worth. A fine breeder will be more expensive while an animal on its last legs will probably not sell for more than the butcher price. To get something usable for the party, I'm going to need a base price to modify from.

How much meat you get from an animal has nothing to do with how well or how long it can do the job. Armies buy the animal that gets the job done not the animal you get the most meat from when it does . Your looking at how much money you get when the animals die instead of how much you make when its alive . There are a lot of factors affecting the prices of animals. What kind of job do you want the animal to do?

Which games/editions? I'm using the 3.5e d&d prices for a riding horse (light horse) and warhorse (heavy warhorse). After all they were copied straight into 5e.

1st for starters. They had a book just for traveling through the wilderness, it had all kinds of tables and rules you might find useful. How many dozens of games have been published? Have you looked at any of them? Broken axles and wheels was a major problem

You mean like the Create Food and Water spell I already mentioned?

I mentioned that spell first and I bring it up again. How much food an elephant or any other animal needs is basically a non issue due in part do to such spells.

Are you just musing out loud or are you trying to provide commentary for how much undead mounts would cost?

I was pointing out that the most cost effective mount is an undead mount. Undead cost nothing except the cost to cast the spell. For someone who is so concerned about food and training cost for animals this is the perfect solution.

[sandmote]

Your comparing modern cows that were bred to produce lots of milk to camels. Do cows in Africa on a piss poor diet produce a well feed cow in America?

Probably, given that the upper price I can find for camels in Egypt is less than a third the lower price range for a typical cow in the same country.

How much meat you get from an animal has nothing to do with how well or how long it can do the job.

But it does have to do with the price of an animal you could convert to meat if you decide it is no longer capable of working.

1st for starters. They had a book just for traveling through the wilderness, it had all kinds of tables and rules you might find useful. How many dozens of games have been published? Have you looked at any of them? Broken axles and wheels was a major problem

Can I get a name for this book? You know, so I have the possibility of being able to look at these rules?

More generally, I'd still end up checking how each system stacks up to the real world uses and markets of animals, so it would just be an awkward middle-man. I've checked the systems I have access to, and havn't checked the ones I don't have access to. What would you prefer?

I was pointing out that the most cost effective mount is an undead mount. Undead cost nothing except the cost to cast the spell. For someone who is so concerned about food and training cost for animals this is the perfect solution.

Undead also include cost the price of the body you are going to be casting the spell on. Additionally, the price of producing the undead mount is necessarily lower than the market price, because it wouldn't be a perfect market.

[JackPhoenix]

Undead also include cost the price of the body you are going to be casting the spell on. Additionally, the price of producing the undead mount is necessarily lower than the market price, because it wouldn't be a perfect market.

Well, sort of. You may be able to buy an old animal, butcher it for meat and hide, and turn the bones into a skeleton, or just get the bones from a butcher. The price for a "raw material" is more-or-less negligible. The real cost is a necromancer willing and able to cast the spell daily to keep the unholy abomination under control.

[huginn]

But it does have to do with the price of an animal you could convert to meat if you decide it is no longer capable of working.

I understand that how much meat you can get from an animal is a factor its just I am not sure how much of a factor for an animal your going to work to death

Can I get a name for this book? You know, so I have the possibility of being able to look at these rules?

More generally, I'd still end up checking how each system stacks up to the real world uses and markets of animals, so it would just be an awkward middle-man. I've checked the systems I have access to, and havn't checked the ones I don't have access to. What would you prefer?

Wilderness survival guide. Its an old book I am sure you can easily find online.

Humans are not the only species using draft animals. How do you decide how much what other species will pay for an animal? Halflings have farms and use draft animals what do they prefer? Would Halflings buy a Clydesdale for a farm?

Undead also include cost the price of the body you are going to be casting the spell on. Additionally, the price of producing the undead mount is necessarily lower than the market price, because it wouldn't be a perfect market.

Spell research can be used to modify the spell so you don't have to cast it daily.

[sandmote]

Well, sort of. You may be able to buy an old animal, butcher it for meat and hide, and turn the bones into a skeleton, or just get the bones from a butcher. The price for a "raw material" is more-or-less negligible. The real cost is a necromancer willing and able to cast the spell daily to keep the unholy abomination under control.

I was mostly thinking that attaching a harness to a skeleton horse would pretty much require (presumably padded) barding, and so would likely be cheaper to use zombies here. However, it now occurs to me that an undead mount doesn't need its windpipe open, so you'd probably want to design a unique plow for the undead anyway so you get more force from their pulling.

But, yeah, the main wrinkle in the market is going to be the high barrier to becoming an undead mount salesman. Which makes it a bit difficult to price them with the other mounts. Certainly anyone who can afford to buy them in the first place will prefer them for labor. Although I expect animals used for pleasure won't be replaced in this manner.

I understand that how much meat you can get from an animal is a factor its just I am not sure how much of a factor for an animal your going to work to death

You don't work it to death. You work it until the components (meat, hide, bones, ect.) are worth more than the labor, and butcher it then. If you keep working it beyond this point you're just giving up money. For animals with a very low material worth (like horses) this usually means switching it from one job to a less demanding one the animal will be able to keep working longer.

Wilderness survival guide. Its an old book I am sure you can easily find online.

I'll keep looking inside, but I don't see what is there that I'm supposed to find useful. Frankly, the thing seems to avoid mentioning prices at any point. Lots of useful fluff, sure, but not relative usefulness of different mounts (Which I expect would include stats).

Humans are not the only species using draft animals. How do you decide how much what other species will pay for an animal? Halflings have farms and use draft animals what do they prefer? Would Halflings buy a Clydesdale for a farm?

Less affluent human can double up a Clydesdale for riding, so there may a difference compared to halflings. But if you're looking for the best draft animal, I don't think being a halfling makes much difference. Maybe if you're a giant and plowing the ground yourself is faster.

Okay, so prices:

Oxen and Elephants as previous, horses as listed in the book. I don't think the camel needs a change, because even if they're relatively cheaper in Egypt they're still more useful for desert travel. Undead mounts don't need the food upkeep and are hard to start making, so I still feel triple prices makes the most sense.

Whats left?
Giant Goats, Aurochs, Giant Sea Horses, Axe Beaks, and Elk? Dinosaurs? I suppose pricing the Giant Bat and a Warpony would make sense a well...

[DrKerosene]

I was mostly thinking that attaching a harness to a skeleton horse would pretty much require (presumably padded) barding, and so would likely be cheaper to use zombies here.

I believe zombies are normally not immune to exhaustion (like skeletons are), so they may still have to take a long rest after a certain point, if you decide to do some math for 24/7 productivity.

That’s all I’ve got to contribute. The rest of this topic is interesting, but definitely outside my wheel-house at this point.

[Brookshw]

Or rundowns for other exotic mounts,.

Triceratops is 500gp. I think you're overpricing.

[sandmote]

Okay, I've added a table to the first post, so I can track this.

I believe zombies are normally not immune to exhaustion (like skeletons are), so they may still have to take a long rest after a certain point, if you decide to do some math for 24/7 productivity.

That’s all I’ve got to contribute. The rest of this topic is interesting, but definitely outside my wheel-house at this point.

Yep, also a good point.

Triceratops is 500gp. I think you're overpricing.

I think the books are underpricing, which has kind of been my argument on the elephants and oxen?

[huginn]

You don't work it to death. You work it until the components (meat, hide, bones, ect.) are worth more than the labor, and butcher it then. If you keep working it beyond this point you're just giving up money. For animals with a very low material worth (like horses) this usually means switching it from one job to a less demanding one the animal will be able to keep working longer.


I'll keep looking inside, but I don't see what is there that I'm supposed to find useful. Frankly, the thing seems to avoid mentioning prices at any point. Lots of useful fluff, sure, but not relative usefulness of different mounts (Which I expect would include stats).

In 5e they deliberately made the rules for mounts and vehicles simple . A lot of factors that affect the prices and usefulness of animals are ignored. I mentioned that book because it does not ignore as many things as 5e does

In 5e The only differences between animals to the party is how much they can carry, how much they cost and how useful they are in combat. Nothing else matters it does not cost anything to feed or train the animal. Its close to if not flat out impossible to come with a set of prices that work for every campaign world out there. Numbers that work for a campaign where they entire world is primary a desert wont work for a campaign where they entire world is a jungle


Its still going to be potentially years before the animal drops over dead or gets too old to work. Ox may end being cheaper then a horse at times because of meat. Eating horse meat has been illegal or taboo in various parts of the world Pope Gregory III banned eating horse meat in 732. It doesn’t matter how much meat you got from a horse it had no value at least not legally. How much impact did this have on the price of an animal? What happens when too many people are breeding too many cows for food? This is something that would affect the price of a horse in real that won’t affect the price in 5e.

On the Oregon Trail people bought ox only because ox was the only animals they afford. They also pretty much did work animals to death on that journey. When an ox did die or got too weak to go on it was left for the wolfs or other predators. They just left all that meat behind.

Less affluent human can double up a Clydesdale for riding, so there may a difference compared to halflings. But if you're looking for the best draft animal, I don't think being a halfling makes much difference. Maybe if you're a giant and plowing the ground yourself is faster.

Halflings are 3 feet tall and the farms are going to be smaller then a human farm. Some animals are going to be too big. If they want a Clydesdale or something like that then they probably have to build a barn bigger then they normally would build. Halflings are going to use plows designed for Halflings and are not plowing that much land an ox or Clydesdale is just over kill. A pony or donkey makes more sense, a pony cant haul as much but Halflings don't have as much to haul

Dwarves are another case. They live in mountains and mine. That right there might eliminate almost everything but a mule. Mules are breed for different jobs one is which is working in mines, an ox or camel is just big and useless

[sandmote]

In 5e they deliberately made the rules for mounts and vehicles simple . A lot of factors that affect the prices and usefulness of animals are ignored. I mentioned that book because it does not ignore as many things as 5e does

When looking at the relationship between uses and price that book only seems to comment on one side of the issue.

In 5e The only differences between animals to the party is how much they can carry, how much they cost and how useful they are in combat. Nothing else matters it does not cost anything to feed or train the animal.

Feed price is listed on the same table as saddles and stabling.

Its close to if not flat out impossible to come with a set of prices that work for every campaign world out there. Numbers that work for a campaign where they entire world is primary a desert wont work for a campaign where they entire world is a jungle

Its still going to be potentially years before the animal drops over dead or gets too old to work. Ox may end being cheaper then a horse at times because of meat. Eating horse meat has been illegal or taboo in various parts of the world Pope Gregory III banned eating horse meat in 732. It doesn’t matter how much meat you got from a horse it had no value at least not legally. How much impact did this have on the price of an animal? What happens when too many people are breeding too many cows for food? This is something that would affect the price of a horse in real that won’t affect the price in 5e.

I'm not aiming for every campaign world. I'm looking for general prices that can be reasonably modified for particular scenarios like a desert or jungle. The exact same principle applies to magic items, weapon prices, and everything else with a price or rarity attached. Regional or setting specific prices are going to be based on some general trend, and that general trend is what the books write out. I'm simply contesting and modifying the same principle the book uses for prices.

On the Oregon Trail people bought ox only because ox was the only animals they afford. They also pretty much did work animals to death on that journey. When an ox did die or got too weak to go on it was left for the wolfs or other predators. They just left all that meat behind.

Stopping to butcher the meat also had an impact on their survival on the trail, and the same economic principles still apply.

Halflings are 3 feet tall and the farms are going to be smaller then a human farm. Some animals are going to be too big. If they want a Clydesdale or something like that then they probably have to build a barn bigger then they normally would build. Halflings are going to use plows designed for Halflings and are not plowing that much land an ox or Clydesdale is just over kill. A pony or donkey makes more sense, a pony cant haul as much but Halflings don't have as much to haul

Dwarves are another case. They live in mountains and mine. That right there might eliminate almost everything but a mule. Mules are breed for different jobs one is which is working in mines, an ox or camel is just big and useless

Halflings still have the haul the earth up to prepare it for planting, and the earth doesn't care what size you are. And again, I'm going for a general trend. Mountainous creatures are going to cost above the trend in mountains, and smaller creatures will generally pay more for smaller creatures over larger ones. Here, I'll number my responses:

1. I'm looking for a general trend
2. I can't use information I don't have access too.
3. A comparison of general usefulness requires a comparison to be made.

For complaints that I'm giving one price figure, see #1. For questions about why I didn't use various books, see #2. For my problem with the one source you've named, see #3. For complaints that I'm not including literally every single possible factors on price see #1 again.

---

Moving on to pricing more mounts.

I've gone with 100 gp for an elk, because it trades the ox's carry capacity for a bit of speed.
50 gp for the giant sea horse, because I expect less demand (land dwelling races probably prefer boats) but also higher defense (fewer options underwater, so it gets equal pricing to the draft horse despite lower carry capacity.
Then 75 gp for my existing giant sea hare homebrew. If doesn't have the speed increase of the riding horse, but it doesn't trade sturdiness and has an escape ability.
75 gp for the ax beak, which has comparable sturdiness to the draft horse but medium speed (50 ft).
The Giant lizard can climb, so maybe 100 gp is fine?
the hadrosaur can probably be butchered; 100 gp assumed in this case.
Ankylosaurus and Triceratops both seem low. See elephant commentary for points on pricing huge beasts.
Suggestions for the Auroch, Giant Sea Eel, and Giant Bat appreciated.

[huginn]

When looking at the relationship between uses and price that book only seems to comment on one side of the issue.

That book has tables that can be used to compare the usefulness of animals at least for hauling cargo over a long distance, its a starting point.

Feed price is listed on the same table as saddles and stabling.

What party is ever going to buy feed in 5e? Half the reason why feed is in the book is because it was always was in the books. In 1st it made sense when a party had to worry about running out of food for themselves and their mounts but now no party has to worry about this.

I'm not aiming for every campaign world. I'm looking for general prices that can be reasonably modified for particular scenarios like a desert or jungle. The exact same principle applies to magic items, weapon prices, and everything else with a price or rarity attached. Regional or setting specific prices are going to be based on some general trend, and that general trend is what the books write out. I'm simply contesting and modifying the same principle the book uses for prices.

The players handbook already has prices that can easily modified. Any trend does not come from the books it comes from the DM. The prices are based off how useful the animals are to a party not some nameless farmer.

Stopping to butcher the meat also had an impact on their survival on the trail, and the same economic principles still apply.

Ox still alive were left behind with the hope that some other group wold find the oc and save it. Some groups couldn't bear to eat the animal as they became too attached. There were cases of an ox not being butchered due to a mistaken belief that the animal died due to disease and the meat was unfit to eat

Halflings still have the haul the earth up to prepare it for planting, and the earth doesn't care what size you are. And again, I'm going for a general trend. Mountainous creatures are going to cost above the trend in mountains, and smaller creatures will generally pay more for smaller creatures over larger ones. Here, I'll number my responses:

1. I'm looking for a general trend
2. I can't use information I don't have access too.
3. A comparison of general usefulness requires a comparison to be made.

For complaints that I'm giving one price figure, see #1. For questions about why I didn't use various books, see #2. For my problem with the one source you've named, see #3. For complaints that I'm not including literally every single possible factors on price see #1 again.

Depending on the soil a donkey or mule is just as good or better then a horse or ox, the earth may not not care about size but that Halfling farmer sure as hell will.

Again any trend is all on you not the books. Its on you not the books for what the general trends and usefulness of animals is going to be different for each race


For the most part any information you need is already in the books, common knowledge and perhaps a encyclopaedia. Every d&d rule book ever printed is online and free to read along with pretty much every rule book for every game ever made. You have access to every book.

Again that book I mentioned did compare animals.

The only comments anyone can say about the general usefulness of animals are broad general statements. If you want a more detailed answer you need to say what region and what work do you want the animals to do.

[Hilary]

I agree with the goodberry solution and with scaling it up by size.

For a mechanic, if you used only the increase in square size (5x5 for medium, 15x15 for huge), you get 9x (which follows the suggested increase).

I think the real problem is how long it would take to feed an elephant.

Elephants may spend 12-18 hours a day feeding.

And all that food has to come out again. What would an elephant that normally poops 300 lbs from normal food poop out from goodberries?

[sandmote]

The players handbook already has prices that can easily modified. Any trend does not come from the books it comes from the DM.

If the books give you base prices, they give you a trend by doing so. The books do give base prices, so they do give a trend. The trend, however, isn't very clear and doesn't include very many of the available mounts.

The prices are based off how useful the animals are to a party not some nameless farmer. ... the earth may not not care about size but that Halfling farmer sure as hell will.

If I ignore the nameless farmer then it doesn't matter if the nameless farmer is a halfling or a giant. If we're including the ability of the party to start a business then they're likely trading with those nameless farmers. These are mutually exclusive.

As it happens, I'm going with the latter case, where the nameless farmer and the nameless farmer's race do matter. However, I'm treating the race of the local nameless farmers as a modifier on the base price.

This is a bit like "general intelligence." If you combine the results of a bunch of separate measures of intelligence together, you get a general trend. We don't know if "general intelligence" is something in the brain or simply an artifact of the data, but it is a measurable statistic. I'm looking for a "general mount use," in the same vein. "general mount use" gives only a fraction of the real picture, but is a comparable abstraction to real animal use as your Intelligence score is an abstraction of your general intelligence.

For the most part any information you need is already in the books, common knowledge and perhaps a encyclopaedia. Every d&d rule book ever printed is online and free to read along with pretty much every rule book for every game ever made. You have access to every book.

A book being online and my being able to access the book are separate things. I don't know the name for "every game ever made," much less the name of every book for every game. So sorting through them all to find useful information isn't possible, because I don't have the information to get to every single book.

Again that book I mentioned did compare animals.

I did see a lot of fluff based comparison. If there was something in the crunch of how much a seller would value one animal compared to another, I missed it. Certainly nothing as clear as Roman elephantry expenses or late 13th century comparisons of ox vs horse plows in England.

The only comments anyone can say about the general usefulness of animals are broad general statements.

Those are the type of statements I'm looking for. Because it's a lot easier to say "desert animals are worth four times as much here," when you know what the desert animals are worth in the first place. 4*X isn't very easy to calculate unless you have a value for X.

I think the real problem is how long it would take to feed an elephant.

Elephants may spend 12-18 hours a day feeding.

And all that food has to come out again. What would an elephant that normally poops 300 lbs from normal food poop out from goodberries?

I'd handle this however you handle the PCs if they're living off goodberries. A goodberry is about an action to eat, and presumably involved very little waste.

[huginn]

If the books give you base prices, they give you a trend by doing so. The books do give base prices, so they do give a trend. The trend, however, isn't very clear and doesn't include very many of the available mounts.

Giving a price is not a trend.

If I ignore the nameless farmer then it doesn't matter if the nameless farmer is a halfling or a giant. If we're including the ability of the party to start a business then they're likely trading with those nameless farmers. These are mutually exclusive.

As it happens, I'm going with the latter case, where the nameless farmer and the nameless farmer's race do matter. However, I'm treating the race of the local nameless farmers as a modifier on the base price.

It is not worth the time, money and effort for the game designers to even try to include the nameless farmer, other npcs or other factors.
What about wages, taxes, tariffs , war, natural disasters, weather and inflation ? All those affect prices are you going to ignore them? It does not matter how useful an animal is to farmers if they cant affird to buy them or there isn't any for sale

It would difficult if not impossible to work out the usefulness of animals for all races. Are donkeys overall more useful Halfings then humans? If more useful then by how much?

In Eberron -Rising from the Last War airships, rail systems mage breed animals and telepotation are brougth up as modes of transporation. That makes animals less usefull how much is that going to lower the price?

A book being online and my being able to access the book are separate things. I don't know the name for "every game ever made," much less the name of every book for every game. So sorting through them all to find useful information isn't possible, because I don't have the information to get to every single book.

The books that are free to access. All you have to do is google something to the effect of which tabletop rpg game has the best rules for running a business. Once you have the names its not hard to find the books online

I did see a lot of fluff based comparison. If there was something in the crunch of how much a seller would value one animal compared to another, I missed it. Certainly nothing as clear as Roman elephantry expenses or late 13th century comparisons of ox vs horse plows in England.

Your talking about a book that was praised for how useful it was. It tells you far an animal can go and how much it can carry, that is very very useful for the buyer to know. If the Roman Empire had access to magic their expenses would have different, the usefulness of animals would have different

Those are the type of statements I'm looking for. Because it's a lot easier to say "desert animals are worth four times as much here," when you know what the desert animals are worth in the first place. 4*X isn't very easy to calculate unless you have a value for X.

The books already give you a price. Its just common sense that you would almost never find people buying, selling and using camels outside the desert . The cost of a camel is 50 gold and common sense will they that is the price in desert

[Kobold_paladin?]

ok, i'm sorry that this won't be helpful but, WAR PONY?!? what?!?



i'd elephants are more expensive where they are rarer.
to throw a price out there: 450 gp

[Mjolnirbear]

When trying to balance purchaseable mounts from House Vadalis in my Eberron campaign, I made the following considerations:

* base price: by CR. Because players will naturally trend to better or stronger animals. Who cares what the carrying capacity is if you have a bag of holding?
* is it magebred: this modifies the price
* is it naturally aggressive or wartrained? This makes the creature better for combat and able to use barding, so modifies the the price.
* is it intelligent? Then the price is paid to hire or bribe the mount, not to Vadalis.

Start with a base price (say, 500 gp/CR), compare to animals (say, horse), then special training (say, warhorse for barding), adjust until you have a formula that best matches the most mounts in the PHB.

Then use it for any creature you desire; pegasi, gryphons, war elephants, clawfeet, hydras, dragons, draft mastiffs, dire wolves, or whatever.

Personally I started with 1000 per CR, left PHB prices alone, and forgot to come back and fiddle with the formula cause my players never bothered trying to get exotic mounts.

Edit: I did some tinkering now that I'm in the mood. The cost roughly corresponds to 200 gp x the CR. The mule and elephant are significantly cheaper; the warhorse significantly more expensive (but it's stronger, tougher, and does more damage than the riding horse). There is minor variation with the pony, camel, and riding horse.

I decided from there to make the Base Cost 300xCR and give existing PHB creatures a "domestication discount". Because I don't want other creatures to be as cheap as domestic creatures.

From there I decided that War-trained creatures (can wear barding, aggressive in combat/does not panic) add a fee of 150% base cost, Exotic creatures (has a swim, fly or climb speed, or more than 4 limbs) at a fee of 150% base cost, and mage-bred animals (see https://www.reddit.com/r/Eberron/com..._magebreeding/) have a fee of 200% base cost (not the least because war-training is one of the available traits). Pets that cannot scout, fight, or perform any useful tasks may be brought to a trainer and trained for 100gp/CR. Intelligent creatures are paid, not bought, but the price is the same. Some creatures with useful traits (blink dogs) will be more expensive, and some not available at all to PCs ever ever ever (basilisks).

If I apply Magebreeding (wartrained plus stronger) to the Base Cost of a CR 1/2 creature (150 gp), I have a price of 450 gold, which is pretty close to the price of the Warhorse while still falling under the "domestication discount" handwavium. If I do the base cost of a mastiff, I have 37.5, which is close to the handwavium discount cost of 25 gp.

It works for me. Your basic elephant is therefore drastically underpriced, but it's also a huge liability. It can kill you by accident if it panics, it can't fit in dungeons even by squeezing, and it eats massively. It also (by my rules) won't attack and can't wear barding. It's mostly used for its strength, though I'd hazard that IRL it's also used because almost nothing will attack an elephant (a protection that is less effective in D&D).

Using this math, all existing creatures are cheaper than the formula, you have some idea how to cost a 'war elephant' or 'war mastiff', you can price Steeders and Giant Lizards for underdark campaigns and Giant Bats for Sharn mounts. The costs escalate significantly the more powerful the creature and the more modifiers you add, and cheaper if you want just a pet that does nothing.

[sandmote]

Giving a price is not a trend.

Giving a price rolls all the factors like carry capacity, speed, and HP/AC into a single factor.

It is not worth the time, money and effort for the game designers to even try to include the nameless farmer, other npcs or other factors.

I am throwing no shade whatsoever on the designers for having spent their time focusing more effort on the things that come up in game more often. I have been trying to set up a common sense system of mount prices. Because I consider it worth my time to do so.

What about wages, taxes, tariffs , war, natural disasters, weather and inflation ? All those affect prices are you going to ignore them? It does not matter how useful an animal is to farmers if they cant affird to buy them or there isn't any for sale

I'm treating these as modifiers on the base price.

This is in the exact same manner you would apply wages, taxes, tariffs, war, natural disasters, weather, and inflation to the weapon prices, armor prices, tool prices, or general equipment prices. Often they are factored into those prices (tax and wages especially) but sometimes a GM might rule shortages have inflates the price or surpluses lowered it. This works exactly the same, just with a mount instead of the other stuff.

This is how its worked for every game system I've seen, so I'm not clear on what your point of contention is.

It would difficult if not impossible to work out the usefulness of animals for all races. Are donkeys overall more useful Halfings then humans? If more useful then by how much?

In Eberron -Rising from the Last War airships, rail systems mage breed animals and telepotation are brougth up as modes of transporation. That makes animals less usefull how much is that going to lower the price?

I don't know how to calculate this in a setting/region agnostic manner, and am therefore treating it as a modifier.

The books that are free to access. All you have to do is google something to the effect of which tabletop rpg game has the best rules for running a business. Once you have the names its not hard to find the books online

Your talking about a book that was praised for how useful it was. It tells you far an animal can go and how much it can carry, that is very very useful for the buyer to know. If the Roman Empire had access to magic their expenses would have different, the usefulness of animals would have different

I am not denying an individual factor of price is useful to know, but an individual factor doesn't give me the sum total of the factors. Something the book spends a lot of time not providing.

Also, you're google fu being better than mine doesn't help improve my google fu. Not that I'm confident your goodle fu is any good, given how much time you've spent complaining d&d 5e and virtually every other system have bad pricing systems, apparently without knowing how they handle them.

The books already give you a price. Its just common sense that you would almost never find people buying, selling and using camels outside the desert . The cost of a camel is 50 gold and common sense will they that is the price in desert

If we apply common sense to the book prices then anyone adventuring would make more money buyng and butchering oxen.

ok, i'm sorry that this won't be helpful but, WAR PONY?!? what?!?

3.5e had them. Also the IRL mongols, who preferred smaller animals that could live by grazing easily. Although because of the size rules in d&d they're really more for small character that want to fight from the saddle even indoors. Although Mjolnirbear's system gives an automatic price for them, which I'm happy about.

I decided from there to make the Base Cost 300xCR and give existing PHB creatures a "domestication discount". Because I don't want other creatures to be as cheap as domestic creatures.

From there I decided that War-trained creatures (can wear barding, aggressive in combat/does not panic) add a fee of 150% base cost, Exotic creatures (has a swim, fly or climb speed, or more than 4 limbs) at a fee of 150% base cost, and mage-bred animals (see https://www.reddit.com/r/Eberron/com..._magebreeding/) have a fee of 200% base cost (not the least because war-training is one of the available traits). Pets that cannot scout, fight, or perform any useful tasks may be brought to a trainer and trained for 100gp/CR. Intelligent creatures are paid, not bought, but the price is the same. Some creatures with useful traits (blink dogs) will be more expensive, and some not available at all to PCs ever ever ever (basilisks).

If I apply Magebreeding (wartrained plus stronger) to the Base Cost of a CR 1/2 creature (150 gp), I have a price of 450 gold, which is pretty close to the price of the Warhorse while still falling under the "domestication discount" handwavium. If I do the base cost of a mastiff, I have 37.5, which is close to the handwavium discount cost of 25 gp.

It works for me. Your basic elephant is therefore drastically underpriced, but it's also a huge liability. It can kill you by accident if it panics, it can't fit in dungeons even by squeezing, and it eats massively. It also (by my rules) won't attack and can't wear barding. It's mostly used for its strength, though I'd hazard that IRL it's also used because almost nothing will attack an elephant (a protection that is less effective in D&D).

Using this math, all existing creatures are cheaper than the formula, you have some idea how to cost a 'war elephant' or 'war mastiff', you can price Steeders and Giant Lizards for underdark campaigns and Giant Bats for Sharn mounts. The costs escalate significantly the more powerful the creature and the more modifiers you add, and cheaper if you want just a pet that does nothing.

This is a lot better than my system. I suppose that solves the expanded mounts options.

Slight notes: waterbound mounts (ex: giant sea horse) probably shouldn't cost as exotic for prices, on the principle they're similarly not going to see use outside the ocean. My modification would also be 150% price for 5 or 6 limbs, climb speed, or swim speed and 200% for flight and over 6 limbs. Flight being a lot more useful. For the elephant, I'll keep my new price of 800 gp. It's still much cheaper than the equation gives ( that being 1200 gp).

For IRL elephants, they were used for three reasons:

1. The enemy lives in a place without elephants and is completely overrun with terror at what might as well be a lovecraftian horror under your control.
2. Horses are terrified of them and cavalry can be kept at bay with a well placed elephant.
3. They conferred status and soft power to the person fielding them in battle.

As far as I can tell only the third option was significant enough to result in elephantry being deployed after the classical era.

My last remark is for basilisks. I don't know what you're party did, but I like the idea of blinded basilisks that are "milked" to produce alchemical material to reverse petrification. "Milking" in this case being closer to the methods venomous creatures are.

[huginn]

I'm treating these as modifiers on the base price.

This is in the exact same manner you would apply wages, taxes, tariffs, war, natural disasters, weather, and inflation to the weapon prices, armor prices, tool prices, or general equipment prices. Often they are factored into those prices (tax and wages especially) but sometimes a GM might rule shortages have inflates the price or surpluses lowered it. This works exactly the same, just with a mount instead of the other stuff.

This is how its worked for every game system I've seen, so I'm not clear on what your point of contention is.

My point of contention is what modifiers should be used or how do you come up with the numbers? Over the past 40 years 99% of the DMs I played under almost always used the base price and everything worked just fine. I seen some make use of inflation but they did not change the base prices

I am not denying an individual factor of price is useful to know, but an individual factor doesn't give me the sum total of the factors. Something the book spends a lot of time not providing.

It's very difficult if not flat out impossible for the books to give the numbers you want. Arguably its very hard for historian to do that when studying medieval or ancient times as the factors change too much from year to year and area to area. What's true is one area isn't always true 50 miles away and they have to make assumptions. They can tell you an ox cost more then a horse in a certain area at a certain time but they can't always completely explain why

Also, you're google fu being better than mine doesn't help improve my google fu. Not that I'm confident your goodle fu is any good, given how much time you've spent complaining d&d 5e and virtually every other system have bad pricing systems, apparently without knowing how they handle them.

When did I complain about prices or anything else in 5th? Your the one who has some issue with the price of an elephant not me. If I was to complain about the price of an elephant I complain about 200 gold is too much

If we apply common sense to the book prices then anyone adventuring would make more money buyng and butchering oxen.

Using just the books just how much can I make? Where is the books does how much meat I can from an ok?

[JackPhoenix]

In Eberron -Rising from the Last War airships, rail systems mage breed animals and telepotation are brougth up as modes of transporation. That makes animals less usefull how much is that going to lower the price?

Not much. Airships are rare and very expensive, teleportation even more so. Lightning rail requires pre-determined routes, and all three are only available in big cities. Magebred animals are great, but still more expensive than normal beasts, and usually created for a specific purpose. All good options for PCs, but for a random Brelish farmer? Not so much.

The books that are free to access. All you have to do is google something to the effect of which tabletop rpg game has the best rules for running a business. Once you have the names its not hard to find the books online

You do realize you're suggesting piracy on a forum which strictly forbids such thing, right?

[Mjolnirbear]

This is a lot better than my system. I suppose that solves the expanded mounts options.

Slight notes: waterbound mounts (ex: giant sea horse) probably shouldn't cost as exotic for prices, on the principle they're similarly not going to see use outside the ocean. My modification would also be 150% price for 5 or 6 limbs, climb speed, or swim speed and 200% for flight and over 6 limbs. Flight being a lot more useful. For the elephant, I'll keep my new price of 800 gp. It's still much cheaper than the equation gives ( that being 1200 gp).

For IRL elephants, they were used for three reasons:

1. The enemy lives in a place without elephants and is completely overrun with terror at what might as well be a lovecraftian horror under your control.
2. Horses are terrified of them and cavalry can be kept at bay with a well placed elephant.
3. They conferred status and soft power to the person fielding them in battle.

As far as I can tell only the third option was significant enough to result in elephantry being deployed after the classical era.

My last remark is for basilisks. I don't know what you're party did, but I like the idea of blinded basilisks that are "milked" to produce alchemical material to reverse petrification. "Milking" in this case being closer to the methods venomous creatures are.

I wouldn't have "swim speed" be different than other exotic mounts, unless the base campaign was set in the ocean. Similarly with "climb speed", unless it was the Underdark where mounts with climb speeds are quite common. It's not ironclad though, and you can adjust it. If I'm honest, my thinking there was initially more 'needs a special saddle' than 'can easily bypass certain challenges' even if the second makes better reasoning, and lumping them together makes it easier than adding a laundry list of factors (because I'm prone to easily adopting rules then having to pare them down and simplify them later).

I've actually had 'milked basilisks' as part of a campaign; a medusa, who ran a 'semipermanent rest' service/inn, needed to reverse the petrification of one of her clients as the contract specified it was time to reconstitute them (and also the ingredients to cure his terminal illness, that a Jorasco house in Cyre had been working on right before the Mourning hit). The party gathered the relevant ingredients, the medusa mixed her reverse petrification potion, the Cyre general was cured, and Prince Oargev began looking across the Brelish borders at Darguun and Valenar now that he had the means to recreate a Cyran army (any Cyran generals with a clue about training, deployment and strategies had died).

[sandmote]

My point of contention is what modifiers should be used or how do you come up with the numbers? Over the past 40 years 99% of the DMs I played under almost always used the base price and everything worked just fine. I seen some make use of inflation but they did not change the base prices

Your listing of a bunch of variables that influence price did not make this clear to me. My measure was for a generic area in which all the mounts' regional benefits (desert vs mountain vs open plains) are equivalent, differences in use by orc/elves/ect. is immaterial, and there's no emergency allowing scalping.

Yeah, I know it's difficult. That's why I'm writing it out on a public forum, to crowd source the most blatant impacts on cost. Theoretical, practical, game based, whatever.

When did I complain about prices or anything else in 5th?

Are you not applying all your concerns about factors influencing prices to everything that can be bought?

Using just the books just how much can I make? Where is the books does how much meat I can from an ok?

If an ox weighs 1000 pounds and 1/3 that weight is salable meat, you'd get 100 gp from a butchered ox. Which was 15 gp for you to buy.

You do realize you're suggesting piracy on a forum which strictly forbids such thing, right?

I mean, I assumed they meant buying a scan. Its a bit hard to get a physical copy of four decade old books.

I wouldn't have "swim speed" be different than other exotic mounts, unless the base campaign was set in the ocean. Similarly with "climb speed", unless it was the Underdark where mounts with climb speeds are quite common. It's not ironclad though, and you can adjust it. If I'm honest, my thinking there was initially more 'needs a special saddle' than 'can easily bypass certain challenges' even if the second makes better reasoning, and lumping them together makes it easier than adding a laundry list of factors (because I'm prone to easily adopting rules then having to pare them down and simplify them later).

Saddle type makes sense for practical pricing. My point was more to break the prices between "lets you get by an obstacle faster" and "lets you get by an obstacle at all."

At this point though I'm perfectly happy to go wild on this and see where I end up.

I've actually had 'milked basilisks' as part of a campaign; a medusa, who ran a 'semipermanent rest' service/inn, needed to reverse the petrification of one of her clients as the contract specified it was time to reconstitute them (and also the ingredients to cure his terminal illness, that a Jorasco house in Cyre had been working on right before the Mourning hit). The party gathered the relevant ingredients, the medusa mixed her reverse petrification potion, the Cyre general was cured, and Prince Oargev began looking across the Brelish borders at Darguun and Valenar now that he had the means to recreate a Cyran army (any Cyran generals with a clue about training, deployment and strategies had died).

Ooh, that's clever.

[JackPhoenix]

If an ox weighs 1000 pounds and 1/3 that weight is salable meat, you'd get 100 gp from a butchered ox. Which was 15 gp for you to buy.

Ox's weight doesn't matter. You can produce finished goods worth double the cost of the material, which means you can get 30gp worth of meat from an ox. It would also take one butcher 6 days to process, and he should be paid 12 gp for work.

[Osuniev]

Roman roads had real problems when it came to carts and hooves. The flag stones were too hard and quickly broke down unshod hooves and cart wheels, to the point where dirt roads existed parallel to the stone roads for goods. Stone roads were fantastic on foot and for army movement, they were a bad investment for trade.

This has nothing to do with the costs of elephant, but I went walking most nights of April on a Via Romana (Roman road) in the forest next to where I was quarantined, and I just wanted to share my sense of wonder that this road which is almost two millenia old is still usable today.

I can see how it was not ideal for trade. But damn, it is quite an achievement.

[Tvtyrant]

This has nothing to do with the costs of elephant, but I went walking most nights of April on a Via Romana (Roman road) in the forest next to where I was quarantined, and I just wanted to share my sense of wonder that this road which is almost two millenia old is still usable today.

I can see how it was not ideal for trade. But damn, it is quite an achievement.

Absolutely. Roads are a monumental effort, and theirs were built to last.

On the subject of mount costs, I would probably just rank the base cost on CR and then have an upkeep cost. The common mounts should get a mount action and not be usable independently in combat; an elephant can trample on an attack move, for instance.

[huginn]

The DMG and PHB are a set of rules not a campaign setting. The campaign setting not the DMG and PHB dictate how the economy works and what the prices are. Using just the DMG and PHB the economy is going to work poorly if at all.

The players can be viewed as little more then criminals who don’t participate in the economy the same way as everyone else . The players do not get their money from some job, they get it by killing some orcs. The prices in the PHB are for the players not some npc. Players pay more for mundane items due to factors such as walking walking into town with bags of gold, being on the run and buying from the black market

[sandmote]

I'm a bit partial to the royal road of the first Persian empire, but those roman ones are far more impressive engineering.

Ox's weight doesn't matter. You can produce finished goods worth double the cost of the material, which means you can get 30gp worth of meat from an ox. It would also take one butcher 6 days to process, and he should be paid 12 gp for work.

This is technically correct. The best kind of correct.

The DMG and PHB are a set of rules not a campaign setting. The campaign setting not the DMG and PHB dictate how the economy works and what the prices are. Using just the DMG and PHB the economy is going to work poorly if at all.

But that set of rules is where most camping settings get their rules from, because they have the additional constraint that players need to be able to sit down at the table and determine how much gold something is worth. So the rules necessary need to be discussed to determine how to make the way the economy works less pathetic.

The players can be viewed as little more then criminals who don’t participate in the economy the same way as everyone else . The players do not get their money from some job, they get it by killing some orcs. The prices in the PHB are for the players not some npc. Players pay more for mundane items due to factors such as walking walking into town with bags of gold, being on the run and buying from the black market

This is a nice headcannon, but as soon as the PCs are recruiting allies its going to fall apart. The book prices are so the DM doesn't actually need to figure out these sort of prices as a general trend, as well as a starting point to figure out prices if, for instance, the setting changes the usefulness or availability of certain goods.

But when the party gets noble titles and is hiring guards, I don't see the prices for their equipment changing in any way.

To format it as a nested heirarchy:

• System Rules

• Setting 1's Rules

• Area 1's Rules

• Area 2's Rules

• Setting 2's Rules

• Area 1's Rules

• Area 2's Rules

Price rules in a given area are modifications of the setting rules, and setting rules are modifications of the system rules, because the players are going to use the system rules to understand them, and they're going to use the system rules for understanding a setting. "A lack of ironworking means metal equipment costs twice as much and scimitars are the only available swords," doesn't mean much if you don't have an idea of how much metal equipment 'typically' costs. Some for any other modification. Including mount costs.

[huginn]

But that set of rules is where most camping settings get their rules from, because they have the additional constraint that players need to be able to sit down at the table and determine how much gold something is worth. So the rules necessary need to be discussed to determine how to make the way the economy works less pathetic.

You can ignore at least 99.99% of the rules set when creating a camping setting so no the rules are not necessary have to be talked about. A sign of a good setting is that it is largely independent of game mechanics. You can go into a fair amount of detail about the economy with out saying what the price of a mount is. You do not need any rule from any book to decide what tax system is being used or inflation or population density or how many bushels of wheat some area produces. Deciding what the price is something that can be done last

This is a nice headcannon, but as soon as the PCs are recruiting allies its going to fall apart. The book prices are so the DM doesn't actually need to figure out these sort of prices as a general trend, as well as a starting point to figure out prices if, for instance, the setting changes the usefulness or availability of certain goods.

But when the party gets noble titles and is hiring guards, I don't see the prices for their equipment changing in any way.

It does not fall apart criminals can and will get allies and getting a noble title doesn't necessary stop a criminal from being a criminal, if anything it might make it easier to be one. I can have all the allies and noble titles I could possible and still go somewhere and murder a group of people just so I can steal their stuff
The prices in the PHB has nothing to do with a trend. The prices in the rules are static and based entirely on the perceived usefulness to the players. You need the prices in the book for organized play, when I make a character for AL I don't need to ask the DM what the price for a horse is.

I played in a lot of groups at a comic book store and it does not matter what group I join or what level my character is an elephant is going to cost 200 gold. When I am 1st level that elephant is 200 gold and when I make to level 20 that elephant is still 200 gold