Moon druid, which spells to concentrate on?

[Spacehamster]

As a 7th level moon druid, which spells would be best to concentrate on while in animal form? Guardian of nature?

[nickl_2000]

For when you want to me in Melee
Protection From Elements
Elemental Bane (with form that does poison damage)
Guardian of Nature
Wall Spells

For when you don't
Call Lightning


Good general Spells
Summons
Sleet Storm VS casters
Confusion
Polymorph on someone else




In general, your best bet for a good long term spell is the summons. If you are against one enemy Protection from Energy or Elemental Bane. If you are against mobs Guardian of Nature works very well and helps you hit when that bonus to hit seems lower.

[Ionathus]

I always found Flaming Sphere to be incredibly effective, even at higher levels -- my Moon Druid topped out at 13 and I'd still be using it before wildshaping if I wanted crowd control and consistent Bonus Action damage (better than Call Lightning, which eats your action).

[BloodSnake'sCha]

I like feiry fire, healing spirit and web.

But in our last campaign I used detect poison and disease (we were savings a sick town).

[Eldariel]

Conjure Animals is an absurd spell that's very often the best spell to concentrate on unless you can cherrypick Conjure Woodland Beings. They're sadly so good that they kinda invalidate the rest of the spells to a degree at least from an optimisation point of view. How much effective damage would e.g. Guardian of Nature have to add to your attacks to match up to 8 wolves or raptors or constrictor snakes or whatever? A lot, and that's without accounting for the utility/CC/HP buffer they provide. And they lasts for an hour.

[Spacehamster]

Conjure Animals is an absurd spell that's very often the best spell to concentrate on unless you can cherrypick Conjure Woodland Beings. They're sadly so good that they kinda invalidate the rest of the spells to a degree at least from an optimisation point of view. How much effective damage would e.g. Guardian of Nature have to add to your attacks to match up to 8 wolves or raptors or constrictor snakes or whatever? A lot, and that's without accounting for the utility/CC/HP buffer they provide. And they lasts for an hour.

This is very true, forgot about that spell, but would that not make my whole party hate me for bogging down the turn lengths by a ton? :-/

[DrKerosene]

If you have a decent chance at making the Concentration Saves (like with Warcaster), then what’s listed so far seems solid.

If not, I would favor lower level spells that aren’t as big a deal to lose, like Entangle (if you can box someone into the AoE with your Wildshape form) or Faerie Fire would be my picks.

Though Flame Blade might be fun if you want to be an Ape with a Lightsaber. It’s not good, but it’s funny.

[NorthernPhoenix]

This is very true, forgot about that spell, but would that not make my whole party hate me for bogging down the turn lengths by a ton? :-/

The tip for avoiding DM (and player) rage is to summon just one thing. It's still good, and thematic, but not nearly as annoying IRL.

[nickl_2000]

The tip for avoiding DM (and player) rage is to summon just one thing. It's still good, and thematic, but not nearly as annoying IRL.

Or use the new UA summon X spirit spells. I personally like that option better than the conjure with 1 critter

[sithlordnergal]

This is very true, forgot about that spell, but would that not make my whole party hate me for bogging down the turn lengths by a ton? :-/

Ehhh, it depends on how quick your turns are, and how the DM runs summoned animals. Conjure Animals doesn't cause your turn to bog down, even with 16+ creatures added, if you use the following tips:

1) Roll their initiative as a group.

2) You need to know exactly what they're doing the turn before they are set to go. That way you can have them move and attack as soon as their turn starts. No looking it over and thinking about what you're going to do on their turn, you need to be ready as soon as their turn starts. That means paying close attention to combat and pre-planning. I generally start planning as soon as their turn ends, and modify it based on any battlefield changes.

3) Either get yourself a free dice rolling app, or roll all of their attacks at once. Make sure you know what their attack bonus is without having to look it up, that way you can mentally add it to your rolls. Do the same thing with damage, just roll it all at once. Or take the average damage from the monster's stat block.

4) If you are having them gang up on a creature, have the DM tell you what the target AC is. It saves some time when you already know the target has a 16 AC, and you just rolled 16d20 with a +4 modifier for each of those. Instead of going down the line you can mentally add 4 to each roll, then tell the DM how many times you hit.

5) I almost forgot the most important tip. You, or whoever controls the summons, have to know the stat block of whatever was summoned inside and out, without having to look it up. If you control the summons and make their rolls you should be able to tell the DM how many attacks each creature gets, their movement speed, their damage, their attack bonus, any special additions to an attack like poison or the ability to knock something prone, special abilities like Pounce or Pack Tactics, and the DC of said abilities WITHOUT looking any of that up. You can have the stat block in front of you to glance down at, but you should know the info well enough that you don't have to go hunting through the creature's stat block.


EDIT: Now, I will admit, that is a lot to put on a player...but that's what you have to do in order to be able to summon a pack of 16 velociraptor and not bog down the game. The DM will still dislike it, but that dislike will be aimed towards how OP velociraptors are when you summon 8 or more of them, not because you take too long.

[Fable Wright]

Are you planning to go into a grapple-on-hit form? If so, Moonbeam, so you can double-dip the damage on that. 2d10 damage/round/spell level is no joke.

Other than that, Conjure X, Entangle, and Spike Growth are what I would primarily consider concentrating on.

[Spacehamster]

Were also thinking about a 1 level dip into hexblade warlock for hexblades curse, hex and armor of agathys.

[MaxWilson]

This is very true, forgot about that spell, but would that not make my whole party hate me for bogging down the turn lengths by a ton? :-/

As an alternative, consider Quicklings out of Conjure Woodland Creatures (if you can get them--ask your DM what your odds are of being able to get Quicklings specifically). 6 attacks for d4+6 damage is almost competitive with wolf damage, but it only requires 2 very-mobile Quicklings instead of 8 wolves.

[Fable Wright]

As an alternative, consider Quicklings out of Conjure Woodland Creatures (if you can get them--ask your DM what your odds are of being able to get Quicklings specifically). 6 attacks for d4+6 damage is almost competitive with wolf damage, but it only requires 2 very-mobile Quicklings instead of 8 wolves.

Seconding this. Quicklings have very competitive damage, and their great move speed and ability to attack at range (something otherwise only shared by apes) gives them excellent utility. And they're not a PITA to track.

[Zuras]

Moonbeam and Conjure Animals are go-to spells at 7th level. Dragging enemies into a Moonbeam is solid, especially as a giant constrictor snake with an auto-grapple attack. It scales the same as Call Lightning (1d10/level), too. Depending on the rest of your party, Spike Growth may remain useful as well. Fog Cloud is surprisingly strong as well, since the Giant Constrictor Snake has blindsight 10’.

If you have another Druid or Ranger in the party, Fog Cloud can become ridiculous, as you summon 8 beasts with Blindsight and a Fog Bank to let them attack with advantage.

[MaxWilson]

Seconding this. Quicklings have very competitive damage, and their great move speed and ability to attack at range (something otherwise only shared by apes) gives them excellent utility.

They also scale really well with both Mage Armor and temp HP (Inspiring Leader, Artillerist protective turrets, shepherd druid, whatever).

If you have another Druid or Ranger in the party, Fog Cloud can become ridiculous, as you summon 8 beasts with Blindsight and a Fog Bank to let them attack with advantage.

Notably, Tiny Servants and Animated Objects and Giant Poisonous Snakes all have blindsight, so pretty much any bard/wizard/druid should be able to combo well with you somehow.

[Xenken]

Guardian of Nature is...ok. It's nice but also fairly understated in a way that isn't great when looking at what to use for your badass top end concentration spell.

I second Conjure Animals as an amazing pick. (I go into a whole thing about proper ways to manage it in the guide in my sig, but the other posts here are largely on the money. Know your stats, save time on dice, and use larger beasts if it can't be managed in other ways.)

In the aim of self buffing, I personally find Fog Cloud to be a underrated option even when only being combined with your own wildshape forms.

[EggKookoo]

Conjure Animals is an absurd spell that's very often the best spell to concentrate on unless you can cherrypick Conjure Woodland Beings. They're sadly so good that they kinda invalidate the rest of the spells to a degree at least from an optimisation point of view. How much effective damage would e.g. Guardian of Nature have to add to your attacks to match up to 8 wolves or raptors or constrictor snakes or whatever? A lot, and that's without accounting for the utility/CC/HP buffer they provide. And they lasts for an hour.

Speaking of Conjure Animals (and Woodland Beings), is there a real functional effect if the CR mechanism was simply limited to "any number of beasts that add up to CR 2"?

So, one brown bear plus one black bear plus one boar plus two giant rats. That's CR 1 + 1/2 + 1/4 + 1/8 + 1/8 = 2. Would that kind of thing unbalance the spell?

[nickl_2000]

Speaking of Conjure Animals (and Woodland Beings), is there a real functional effect if the CR mechanism was simply limited to "any number of beasts that add up to CR 2"?

So, one brown bear plus one black bear plus one boar plus two giant rats. That's CR 1 + 1/2 + 1/4 + 1/8 + 1/8 = 2. Would that kind of thing unbalance the spell?

I wouldn't allow it at a table I was playing at simply because you are complicating a spell that already has potential to slow the game down. If you have all the same animal, at least you only have one stat block to work with. In this case you could have 4 or more stat block.

[NorthernPhoenix]

Speaking of Conjure Animals (and Woodland Beings), is there a real functional effect if the CR mechanism was simply limited to "any number of beasts that add up to CR 2"?

So, one brown bear plus one black bear plus one boar plus two giant rats. That's CR 1 + 1/2 + 1/4 + 1/8 + 1/8 = 2. Would that kind of thing unbalance the spell?

The spell is already extremely unbalanced. Any change should be towards making it more balanced, not less.

[EggKookoo]

I wouldn't allow it at a table I was playing at simply because you are complicating a spell that already has potential to slow the game down. If you have all the same animal, at least you only have one stat block to work with. In this case you could have 4 or more stat block.

I don't see anything in the spell description that says the summoned creatures need to be the same beasts.

[NorthernPhoenix]

I don't see anything in the spell description that says the summoned creatures need to be the same beasts.

They need to be whatever the DM picks. And since the spell is already a pain, why pressure the DM into picking a combination that's even more of a pain?

[nickl_2000]

I don't see anything in the spell description that says the summoned creatures need to be the same beasts.

I will completely agree with you there. It also doesn't say in the spell description if the DM or the player chooses the summons that appear.


So, RAW is highly up for debate (and not something that should hijack this thread). I simply said I wouldn't allow it at my table for the reason I stated. We have a specific way of doing summon spells that works really well and isn't RAW at all, so I may not be the best person to decide.

[EggKookoo]

They need to be whatever the DM picks. And since the spell is already a pain, why pressure the DM into picking a combination that's even more of a pain?

Oh, I'm assuming the DM is okay with it. As the DM at my table, I'd let the druid player choose the animals anyway, subject to thematic approval.

I will completely agree with you there. It also doesn't say in the spell description if the DM or the player chooses the summons that appear.

This errata says the design intent is the DM picks, but suggests to allow the player to have input.

[nickl_2000]

This errata says the design intent is the DM picks, but suggests to allow the player to have input.

<Sarcasm>Which is the kind solid decision making, which leave no argument at all, that I've come to expect out of Sage Advice</Sarcasm>


*Shrugs* Well, if that is what they say, that is what they say. I still like my tables method better.



Although that same Sage Advice says that you don't split between CRs. https://media.wizards.com/2020/dnd/d...Compendium.pdf
"Other spells of this sort let the spellcaster choose from
among several broad options. For example, conjure minor
elementals offers four options. Here are the first two:
• One elemental of challenge rating 2 or lower
• Two elementals of challenge rating 1 or lower
The design intent for options like these is that the spellcaster chooses one of them, and then the DM decides what
creatures appear that fit the chosen option."


So, player picks the CR level/number of animals. DM picks the creatures.

[EggKookoo]

Although that same Sage Advice says that you don't split between CRs.

Yeah, I gathered that was the RAW. I have a 2nd level moon druid player, and I know she'll want this spell when she hits 5th. I'm just trying to get ahead of the question of composition. I like the idea of letting her pick whatever adds up to CR 2. I suspect in the end it won't make much difference.

[nickl_2000]

Yeah, I gathered that was the RAW. I have a 2nd level moon druid player, and I know she'll want this spell when she hits 5th. I'm just trying to get ahead of the question of composition. I like the idea of letting her pick whatever adds up to CR 2. I suspect in the end it won't make much difference.

How my table does it:

When you get the Summon Spell you create 4 summon groups of one type of animal. One summon group for each CR level available, which is then approved by the DM. Every odd level you may add an additional summon group to being available for summoning. Then when the PC casts the spell, they say which group they are summoning. The player must have the stat blocks of all summon groups printed out and available when they cast the spell or the spell fails.


This way the player has the stat blocks of all their summons ready to go immediately when they summon and you don't lose time looking things up. When large numbers of critters are summoned, we also split the control of those critters between the players.

You could do something similar with mixed groups if you wanted, although I still think it's an added complication that just isn't worth the lose of playing time.

[Eldariel]

Speaking of Conjure Animals (and Woodland Beings), is there a real functional effect if the CR mechanism was simply limited to "any number of beasts that add up to CR 2"?

So, one brown bear plus one black bear plus one boar plus two giant rats. That's CR 1 + 1/2 + 1/4 + 1/8 + 1/8 = 2. Would that kind of thing unbalance the spell?

Well, it gives you slightly more control as to what you get: do you want a horde of small things or few big things. Then again, generally horde of small things is superior in this edition as a rule so it's kind of a false choice: and if the DM lets the PC pick their summons (as they should just to avoid bogging things down further by having to run half-a-dozen random creatures extra) it serves no point of course. Of course, making a complex and sluggish spell even more complex and sluggish can be problematic. But if the player runs them, is intimately familiar with all the statblocks of the creatures they're running, uses an efficient die rolling method and just autoplays their turn immediately, it should not be much of a problem.