How to Make the Scimitar a good choice

[Willie the Duck]

I mean, it's slashing rather than piercing, as-is. And that's often the biggest difference between a few of the various weapon choices.

I think (again, we're having to guess at the OP's motivation) the issue is that it sits on the weapon table, unused. The piercing equivalent sees ample use by 2wf rogues (who are naturally proficient in one and not the other).

[Theodoxus]

I saw lots of Land Druids use scimitar & shield in Tier 1. Because:
- Dex 14 was pretty normal for starting druids, and Str 14 is not.
- not everyone wants to spend a cantrip slot on shillelagh, especially when you're intending to avoid melee
- you can't always avoid being in melee range despite good intentions, and that's when you pull out your scimitar.

.

I think this is really the crux of WotC's decision. A scimitar is basically a finesse club. They didn't want to make a finesse 1d6 weapon that everyone could use (the d4 throwing axe fits that spot). But didn't want to screw over dex based druids - so, you make the weapon martial, and grant druids the specific proficiency to use it.

Given that longswords aren't finesse, I'd be happy with swapping rogue prof in longswords for prof in scimitars (though I really love the idea of longswords being finesse when used two-handed - to give rogues a bit of love).

[Yuroch Kern]

Scimitars are thin, curved...but they are not actually very small like a short sword. I fixed them in my game by giving them Versatile (1d8). As far as making them better than short swords, the proficiencies available to classes already make that kinda moot. It gives it a little boost to Druids mostly.

[Segev]

Scimitars are thin, curved...but they are not actually very small like a short sword. I fixed them in my game by giving them Versatile (1d8). As far as making them better than short swords, the proficiencies available to classes already make that kinda moot. It gives it a little boost to Druids mostly.

Unless I'm forgetting the Falchion existing in 5e, I would suggest making a Versatile scimitar go to 2d4, just so that it is the answer to "but what about the falchion?" if brought up. 2d4 is only a very slightly bit better than 1d8.

[Yuroch Kern]

Unless I'm forgetting the Falchion existing in 5e, I would suggest making a Versatile scimitar go to 2d4, just so that it is the answer to "but what about the falchion?" if brought up. 2d4 is only a very slightly bit better than 1d8.

I dont think the falchion exists per se in 5e, just a refluff. 2d4 would be also slightly edging the rapier, although the rapier has more support as a one handed finesse weapon. I refluffed Falchions as longswords, since the size makes them less Finesse, but the technique allows the Versatile and better damage. My opinion.

[Yuroch Kern]

Also, the way criticals work, it does more damage this way with the extra d8, as opposed to d4. I appears the designers wanted to keep Finesse weapons to d8 or less to keep Strength builds having the big damage dice of d10 or more. Also, and this comes up a lot, damage types can make a difference when interacting with your environment. A short sword technically can't slice a rope or cut a net. Scimitar can...

[JNAProductions]

Also, the way criticals work, it does more damage this way with the extra d8, as opposed to d4. I appears the designers wanted to keep Finesse weapons to d8 or less to keep Strength builds having the big damage dice of d10 or more. Also, and this comes up a lot, damage types can make a difference when interacting with your environment. A short sword technically can't slice a rope or cut a net. Scimitar can...

A DM that rules you cannot slice a rope with a shortsword is not a DM I'd want to play with.

[Tanarii]

A DM that rules you cannot slice a rope with a shortsword is not a DM I'd want to play with.

Are we talking sawing through a rope, or trying to cut it with a single blow? I mean, there's a reason cutlasses were a thing.

[Willie the Duck]

Are we talking sawing through a rope, or trying to cut it with a single blow? I mean, there's a reason cutlasses were a thing.

I think the point is that a short sword (/hanger/machete/gladius/messer/fascine knife perhaps) is side-edged, was not a 'stabbing exclusive' blade like a stiletto or spike, etc. It shouldn't specifically have much more difficulty cutting through a rope than any other sword. Cut through with a single blow? Honest lots of swords shouldn't be guaranteed that unless the rope is taut. Cutlasses (I assume you mean the naval version) have all sorts of reasons for the why and how (in particular the not needing to be worn on the belt allowing for the symmetrical basket hilt).

[Tanarii]

But most of those are better stated 5e scimitars, not 5e shortswords. That's the point.

[greenstone]

I think part of the issue is that the weapon is badly named. That image posted earlier in this thread is not a 5E scimitar. The scimitar in the 5E rulebook is more what we would call a machete, parang, bolo, golok or maybe kukri. It's a one-handed light weapon weighing 3 pounds. The real world "scimitar" is a curved sword (shamshir, tulwar, kilij, cavalry sabre, etc) much larger and heavier than this (Raven Armoury's kilij is just over 11lb!).

Personally, I'd take all the versatile weapons away from the rogue class and give them all the one-handed martial piercing and slashing weapons. Not the bludgeoning ones (blunt object != finesse :-).

The image of a dual-kukri wielding miscreant is well-established in fiction. I'd like it to be in this game.

Then again, the weapons table is wierd. What's the difference between a scimitar and a hand axe? Why does the former need special skill? Why does a 10lb greatclub do the same damage as a 4lb quarterstaff? Why does a morningstar cost and weigh twice as much as an idential weapon, the warpick?

[Yuroch Kern]

A DM that rules you cannot slice a rope with a shortsword is not a DM I'd want to play with.

I think the point is that a short sword (/hanger/machete/gladius/messer/fascine knife perhaps) is side-edged, was not a 'stabbing exclusive' blade like a stiletto or spike, etc. It shouldn't specifically have much more difficulty cutting through a rope than any other sword. Cut through with a single blow, honest lots of swords should be guaranteed that unless the rope is taut. Cutlasses (I assume you mean the naval version) have all sorts of reasons for the why and how (in particular the not needing to be worn on the belt allowing for the symmetrical basket hilt).

The technicality is just that. The rules, RAW, things and systems. I'm not saying you can't justify it. I'm saying you need permission to do it. Saying that you can easily cut with a "Piercing" weapon, is saying the Scimitar is redundant because just carry a Short Sword, because a Short Sword is actually a P and S weapon...

[MaxWilson]

The glaive-guisarme could also use some love to distinguish it from the ranseur and the voulge.

[Tanarii]

The glaive-guisarme could also use some love to distinguish it from the ranseur and the voulge.

I'd settle for the Glaive and the Halberd

[Zhorn]

The glaive-guisarme could also use some love to distinguish it from the ranseur and the voulge.

I'd settle for the Glaive and the Halberd

Sorry, but it would seem we're fresh out of stock on those

[CapnWildefyr]

Sorry, but it would seem we're fresh out of stock on those

We're not out of stock, they're just in the back between the bill-hooks and the bohemian ear spoons.

The problem with the weapons table is that they are using one table to do two different things. We need one table that lists classes/groupings of simple vs martial weapons, and another table for prices where you list everything line by line.

[da newt]

I'm no expert, but I'm pretty sure a Khukuri is forward curved (and pretty darn heavy for it's length), where a cutlass or scimitar is backwards curved, right?

Certainly the Gurkha are bad @ss, but I'm not sure the Khukuri is a finesse weapon - it's more of a beheading knife/axe multi tool ...

[Tanarii]

I'm no expert, but I'm pretty sure a Khukuri is forward curved (and pretty darn heavy for it's length), where a cutlass or scimitar is backwards curved, right?

Certainly the Gurkha are bad @ss, but I'm not sure the Khukuri is a finesse weapon - it's more of a beheading knife/axe multi tool ...

My understanding of the Kurki, Cutlass, Falchion, and Machete is their defining characteristic isn't curve, it's being relatively weighted towards the end of the blade. As opposed to being relatively weighted towards the hilt.

But in 5e terms, they are all slashing bladed weapons of varying size, and as such for stats should probably either be a Longsword or a Scimitar. Personally I'd put Kurki and Cutlass and Machete as Scimitars, and Falchion as a Longsword.

[Segev]

My understanding of the Kurki, Cutlass, Falchion, and Machete is their defining characteristic isn't curve, it's being relatively weighted towards the end of the blade. As opposed to being relatively weighted towards the hilt.

But in 5e terms, they are all slashing bladed weapons of varying size, and as such for stats should probably either be a Longsword or a Scimitar. Personally I'd put Kurki and Cutlass and Machete as Scimitars, and Falchion as a Longsword.

I always thought Kukri were closer to daggers, but my only exposure to them was 3.PF.

[MrCharlie]

You could very easily say this is a problem with swords in general.

The DnD weapon table manages to be both too specific and too general. If you are going to go into detail about every type of sword, then you've got a huge nerd fight. You either need to make some attempt to do them all justice-Pathfinder-or avoid the fight.

I'd go with making three swords. Short-sword, one-handed sword, two-handed sword. 1d6/light, 1d8, 2d6/heavy. Give them the ability to do both slashing and piercing (invent a new weapon tag), and make the non-heavy ones finesse. No rapier, no scimitar, no specific rules needed, just swords.

At the end of the day, a sword is still a sword, no matter what shape it has. They were optimized for different uses, but a fighters preference would influence the forging to a significant degree as well as culture and "make", so modeling every sword type is absurd. Their defining characteristics were portability, their relative lightness, and their surprising grace when wielded correctly.

To put it another way, the variety between all swords is smaller than the variation between a sword and any other weapon, so just make three swords and be done with it.

If you really must keep the scimitar, give it a special property that favors use from horseback. That's one of the main advantages to having a curved blade-for several reasons, it's easier to deliver cuts from horseback effectively if the weapon is curved, hence why horse-riding cultures tend to gravitate towards them. If you want simple make it a 1d10 weapon when used from horseback, if you want complicated have the first attack each turn from horseback have advantage as long as the mount moved at least 10 feet towards the target. Even makes sense why druids might use them over rogues-druids get along with animals, rogues are often stereotyped to be the exact opposite ("damn city boy!").

[KorvinStarmast]

OK, I think I see the point being made in re low level druids needing something that isn't a club.

[greenstone]

OK, I think I see the point being made in re low level druids needing something that isn't a club.

I vaguely remember that druids were given scimitar and sickle proficiency because of their association with the crescent moon.

[Misterwhisper]

I vaguely remember that druids were given scimitar and sickle proficiency because of their association with the crescent moon.

Sickle makes perfect sense, it is a farming tool and a tool of the harvest.

Scimitar never made any sense to me, it is a weapon built for war, not the hunt.

[Segev]

Sickle makes perfect sense, it is a farming tool and a tool of the harvest.

Scimitar never made any sense to me, it is a weapon built for war, not the hunt.

If I had to justify it, I'd say it's the closest thing 3e had to a machete. Which is as much a jungle-exploration tool as it is a weapon.

[prabe]

If I had to justify it, I'd say it's the closest thing 3e had to a machete. Which is as much a jungle-exploration tool as it is a weapon.

Except that druids' proficiency with scimitar goes back to 1e, and similarly archaic/exotic weapons are called out for druids in Unearthed Arcana (khopesh, IIRC). Which doesn't mean that "similarity to machete" isn't part of the thinking, just that it goes back further.

[KorvinStarmast]

Except that druids' proficiency with scimitar goes back to 1e,

Actually, it goes back to OD&D Eldritch Wizardry, 1976, a few years before 1e hit the presses.

I vaguely remember that druids were given scimitar and sickle proficiency because of their association with the crescent moon.

Gygax said it's the closest thing to a sword/sickle that he could give to a cleric sub class for the Eldritch Wizardry druid. (1976). A bit more detail is here. (Wait, aren't you on RPGSE as greenstonewalker?)

The relationship between the historical sickle used to harvest misteltoe and a curved sword was a stylistic point. From the man himself:(note:Gary was posting as Col_Pladoh) {dragonsfoot forum post}

Q: Hello, Colonel! Hope you're feeling better!!! Just a question that stretches back down the eons to 1e.: why do druids use scimitars? It just seems curious with the Celtic connection.

A: Heh, It is because the scimitar is as close a sword weapon I could come up with to match the druids' mistletoe-harvesting sickle. Cheers, Gary

[Morty]

As far as I can tell, the only difference between a scimitar and a shortsword is 15 gp and a different damage type. Neither of which is terribly likely to be relevant. It's probably best to just treat them both as a generic "light finesse weapon" category and describe it as we please.

[Damon_Tor]

Make physical damage types matter more. There are a bunch of ways to do this, but I think the simplest way is to sprinkle specific physical resistances and vulnerabilities around among the enemies where it makes sense. This would give a martial character a good reason to carry at least two weapons.

Also relevant: for scimitars to not suck, dual wielding also has to not suck.

[Yakmala]

My highest level character in 5E is a Dexterity based Battle Master. For his first 18 levels, he used a rapier. Then he got his hands on a really good magical scimitar.

I didn't really notice the difference in base damage. Maybe at lower levels the 1 point difference between the average on a D8 and a D6 matters, but as you level up, and have higher damage bonuses from your attributes and magic items, it's a negligible difference.