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    Question How do unarmed monks deal extra damage types like weapons get for enchantments?

    Do they enchant gloves and boots or something? Maybe a ring?

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    Default Re: How do unarmed monks deal extra damage types like weapons get for enchantments?

    In Pathfinder, there's Elemental Fist, or an elemental damage enhancement on an Amulet of Mighty Fists or (if you're really desperate) Bodywraps of Striking.

    In 3.5...my knowledge is shakier, but I think the little gemstones you can slot into weapons from the Magic Item Compendium are compatible with unarmed strikes?

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    Default Re: How do unarmed monks deal extra damage types like weapons get for enchantments?

    Quote Originally Posted by eyebreaker7 View Post
    Do they enchant gloves and boots or something? Maybe a ring?
    Are you asking about like flaming burst and stuff to deal fire damage? You use a necklace of natural weapons and enchant that. It applies to your unarmed strike and any other natural attacks you may have. Don't bother with the amulet of mighty fists, it's massively overpriced for no reason. Weapon crystals unfortunately do not work naked on your fists, but can be slotted into a necklace of natural weapons no problem.
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    Default Re: How do unarmed monks deal extra damage types like weapons get for enchantments?

    The go-to in 3e is the necklace of natural attacks from Savage Species. It's 600 gp plus the weapon enhancements' normal cost times the number of weapons to be affected.

    In the case of a monk character with a +1 flaming unarmed strike, it'd be 18,600 gp. 600 + (1* ((1+2)*2000))

    Where 600 is for the base, the total enhancement cost is as a +3 weapon because +1 and flaming is +2, and that enhancement cost is multiplied by 1 for the single unarmed strike weapon the monk will be using.
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    Default Re: How do unarmed monks deal extra damage types like weapons get for enchantments?

    There are quite a few ways to add enhancements onto unarmed strikes.

    Note that the enhancement bonuses to attack and damage don't stack, but the special weapon abilities do.

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    Default Re: How do unarmed monks deal extra damage types like weapons get for enchantments?

    Quote Originally Posted by MaxiDuRaritry View Post
    There are quite a few ways to add enhancements onto unarmed strikes.

    Note that the enhancement bonuses to attack and damage don't stack, but the special weapon abilities do.
    lol, i know its not, but it really seems like that post is your answer to every problem :P

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    Default Re: How do unarmed monks deal extra damage types like weapons get for enchantments?

    Quote Originally Posted by Noxangelo View Post
    lol, i know its not, but it really seems like that post is your answer to every problem :P
    Pretty much anything involving monks, unarmed strikes, or making powerful and versatile martials in general, really.

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    Last edited by MaxiDuRaritry; 2020-05-14 at 10:32 PM.

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    Default Re: How do unarmed monks deal extra damage types like weapons get for enchantments?

    Quote Originally Posted by eyebreaker7 View Post
    Do they enchant gloves and boots or something? Maybe a ring?
    In Neverwinter Nights they just used gauntlets. Actual D&D rules are a bit more complicated.

    The FAQ says they can apply their improved unarmed damage to attacks with gauntlets, but can't flurry with them. Whether or not monks are proficient in gauntlets in the first place relies on interpretation of the phrase "A strike with a gauntlet is otherwise considered an unarmed attack."

    In addition, on the weapons chart, the gauntlet is both listed as a unarmed attack and a simple weapon, along with the unarmed strike. Monks don't have proficiency with simple weapons, but an unarmed strike is considered a simple weapon and they aren't given proficiency with that either, and I doubt anyone intends for the monk to have a -4 proficiency penalty on unarmed strikes.

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    Default Re: How do unarmed monks deal extra damage types like weapons get for enchantments?

    Yeah, gauntlets. They need proficiency, and they can't flurry, but they do get their unarmed damage with them.

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    Default Re: How do unarmed monks deal extra damage types like weapons get for enchantments?

    Ki Straps (if your DM allows you to enchant them as weapons) or Insignia of the Claws work as well.
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    Default Re: How do unarmed monks deal extra damage types like weapons get for enchantments?

    In pathfinder, just use handwraps from the martial arts handbook. They wrap two fists and are enhanced as weapons , but apply their magic to your unarmed strikes.

    It also helps TWF since in PF you an explicitly TWF with unarmed strikes.

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    Default Re: How do unarmed monks deal extra damage types like weapons get for enchantments?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kelb_Panthera View Post
    ... and that enhancement cost is multiplied by 1 for the single unarmed strike weapon the monk will be using.
    imho the best way is to enhance your unarmed strikes as "natural weapon: unarmed strike", since the monk unarmed strike allows it.

    While it may look the same, by raw there is a lil difference. For regular unarmed strike (as martial weapon enhanced) you would have to designate either the limb you want to enhance or pay for each limb (weapon) seperate.
    Natural Weapons instead are enhanced as categories (see claws, tentacles...) and thus you need to once to have all legal limbs enhanced.

    Most of the time it won't make a difference, but if you want to twf or your primary hand is otherwise blocked from attacking, this gets priceless.

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    Default Re: How do unarmed monks deal extra damage types like weapons get for enchantments?

    Magic gauntlets. See page 116-118 of the PHB. They're considered a weapon so they can be made into a magic weapon, but a strike with them is still considered an unarmed strike, so they can be used with flurry of blows even though they're not on the list of monk weapons

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    "Gauntlet: This metal glove protects your hands and lets you deal lethal damage rather than nonlethal damage with unarmed strikes. A strike with a gauntlet is otherwise considered an unarmed attack." PHB pg117-118

    "When using flurry of blows, a monk may attack only with unarmed strikes or with special monk weapons (kama, nunchaku, quarterstaff, sai, shuriken, and siangham)" -PHB pg40
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    Default Re: How do unarmed monks deal extra damage types like weapons get for enchantments?

    Someone probably knows a pretty slick way to actually get it permanently or semi-permanently but if you can get Greater Mighty Wallop on this build with your unarmed strike that'd be pretty great.
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    Default Re: How do unarmed monks deal extra damage types like weapons get for enchantments?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kelb_Panthera View Post
    The go-to in 3e is the necklace of natural attacks from Savage Species. It's 600 gp plus the weapon enhancements' normal cost times the number of weapons to be affected.

    In the case of a monk character with a +1 flaming unarmed strike, it'd be 18,600 gp. 600 + (1* ((1+2)*2000))

    Where 600 is for the base, the total enhancement cost is as a +3 weapon because +1 and flaming is +2, and that enhancement cost is multiplied by 1 for the single unarmed strike weapon the monk will be using.
    Flaming is only +1, so the cost should be 8600 gp for a necklace of natural weapons that gives +1 flaming to one weapon. Flaming burst is +2.

    -----

    The rules for the necklace of natural weapons were fairly unclear, but based on the example, the 600 gp base price also gets multiplied. It also isn't entirely clear whether a pair of natural weapons counts as 1 or 2 weapons for the price calculations, but I've always assumed that all your weapons of one type are enhanced as a single weapon. So, if you want it to grant a +1 bonus to a pair of claws, it's still 2600 gp.

    It also doesn't really say that you can enhance your natural weapons in a modular fashion, but I always allow it that way. A +2 equivalent for 1 natural weapon costs 8600 gp, and for 2 weapons, it costs 17,200 gp. But, modularity means each weapon can have a different +2 equivalent. So, for example, if you've got a standard bite-and-claws setup, you can give your bite +1 keen and your claws +1 flaming (both +2 equivalents); or you can give both of them +1 keen for the same price. I don't think it technically allows that by RAW, but it seems only fair to me.

    But, unarmed strikes with a necklace of natural weapons always make me nervous, because there are plenty of loopholes. Like, what do y'all think about unarmed strikes and two-weapon fighting? Normally, you'd have to pay separately to enhance two weapons; but can you just enhance your entire body as a single weapon, and dual wield it anyway? I feel like you'd always get some joker trying to do a "2 hands + 2 elbows + 2 feet + 2 knees + 1 headbutt" full attack with Multi-Weapon Fighting and/or Multiattack. That's probably one of the main reasons why 3.5e just has the amulet of mighty fists to apply a flat bonus to all natural attacks with a higher price tag.

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    Default Re: How do unarmed monks deal extra damage types like weapons get for enchantments?

    Quote Originally Posted by Blue Jay View Post
    Flaming is only +1, so the cost should be 8600 gp for a necklace of natural weapons that gives +1 flaming to one weapon. Flaming burst is +2.

    -----

    The rules for the necklace of natural weapons were fairly unclear, but based on the example, the 600 gp base price also gets multiplied. It also isn't entirely clear whether a pair of natural weapons counts as 1 or 2 weapons for the price calculations, but I've always assumed that all your weapons of one type are enhanced as a single weapon. So, if you want it to grant a +1 bonus to a pair of claws, it's still 2600 gp.

    It also doesn't really say that you can enhance your natural weapons in a modular fashion, but I always allow it that way. A +2 equivalent for 1 natural weapon costs 8600 gp, and for 2 weapons, it costs 17,200 gp. But, modularity means each weapon can have a different +2 equivalent. So, for example, if you've got a standard bite-and-claws setup, you can give your bite +1 keen and your claws +1 flaming (both +2 equivalents); or you can give both of them +1 keen for the same price. I don't think it technically allows that by RAW, but it seems only fair to me.

    But, unarmed strikes with a necklace of natural weapons always make me nervous, because there are plenty of loopholes. Like, what do y'all think about unarmed strikes and two-weapon fighting? Normally, you'd have to pay separately to enhance two weapons; but can you just enhance your entire body as a single weapon, and dual wield it anyway? I feel like you'd always get some joker trying to do a "2 hands + 2 elbows + 2 feet + 2 knees + 1 headbutt" full attack with Multi-Weapon Fighting and/or Multiattack. That's probably one of the main reasons why 3.5e just has the amulet of mighty fists to apply a flat bonus to all natural attacks with a higher price tag.

    "Claws" count as single "natural attack" (!= attack != attack action..., so don't get confused; this is referring to "natural attack types"). This is why you make 2 claw attacks at your highest BAB if you designate it as primary attack.
    Claws are an exception in this regards.
    This is all 3.5 wording issues with "Claws" , which is the plural from of the word, can be counted as singular (e.g. Claws can be your Primary Attack (singular)).

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    Default Re: How do unarmed monks deal extra damage types like weapons get for enchantments?

    There is a little known way to directly enchant the limbs of a creature in 3.5. The problem with direct body-enchanting is the issue of "masterwork" quality. creature's bodies are not considered masterwork, regardless of how well one takes care of it (ie: monks, who really should count as masterwork, as well as be proficient in unarmed strikes, seriously).

    However, with Lifeshaping, one can make limbs masterwork quality. Once a limb is considered masterwork, then it is a valid target for direct enchanting.

    Lifeshaped grafts, masterwork or not, have an upkeep cost in the form of expensive and artificial nutrients, and a lifespan much shorter than the host organism which would require eventual replacement... so this may not be ideal for everyone.
    Last edited by nijineko; 2020-06-15 at 07:36 AM.
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    Default Re: How do unarmed monks deal extra damage types like weapons get for enchantments?

    Quote Originally Posted by nijineko View Post
    There is a little known way to directly enchant the limbs of a creature in 3.5. The problem with direct body-enchanting is the issue of "masterwork" quality. creature's bodies are not considered masterwork, regardless of how well one takes care of it (ie: monks, who really should count as masterwork, as well as be proficient in unarmed strikes, seriously).

    However, with Lifeshaping, one can make limbs masterwork quality. Once a limb is considered masterwork, then it is a valid target for direct enchanting.

    Lifeshaped grafts, masterwork or not, have an upkeep cost in the form of expensive and artificial nutrients, and a lifespan much shorter than the host organism which would require eventual replacement... so this may not be ideal for everyone.
    Well, you can explicitly enhance a warforged's body.

    And spending 300 gp upon character creation to pay for a masterwork weapon/body should do it. Or, if your DM allows it, "reforging" (also known as "training") your body into a masterwork weapon would do it, too.

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    Default Re: How do unarmed monks deal extra damage types like weapons get for enchantments?

    Quote Originally Posted by nijineko View Post
    There is a little known way to directly enchant the limbs of a creature in 3.5.
    Kensai allows to enhance separate fists/limbs (for extra cost) for unarmed strike/natural attack.

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    Default Re: How do unarmed monks deal extra damage types like weapons get for enchantments?

    For one game, I homebrewed some elemental symbionts which granted effects like Flaming to unarmed strikes (or other natural attacks).

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    Default Re: How do unarmed monks deal extra damage types like weapons get for enchantments?

    Quote Originally Posted by nijineko View Post
    There is a little known way to directly enchant the limbs of a creature in 3.5. The problem with direct body-enchanting is the issue of "masterwork" quality. creature's bodies are not considered masterwork, regardless of how well one takes care of it (ie: monks, who really should count as masterwork, as well as be proficient in unarmed strikes, seriously).

    However, with Lifeshaping, one can make limbs masterwork quality. Once a limb is considered masterwork, then it is a valid target for direct enchanting.

    Lifeshaped grafts, masterwork or not, have an upkeep cost in the form of expensive and artificial nutrients, and a lifespan much shorter than the host organism which would require eventual replacement... so this may not be ideal for everyone.
    Got a source for that?
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    Default Re: How do unarmed monks deal extra damage types like weapons get for enchantments?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kitsuneymg View Post
    In pathfinder, just use handwraps from the martial arts handbook. They wrap two fists and are enhanced as weapons , but apply their magic to your unarmed strikes.

    It also helps TWF since in PF you an explicitly TWF with unarmed strikes.
    In 3.5 you can TWF with anything, you just need enough hands to hold them, why do Unarmed Strikes need to be specifically called out?

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    Default Re: How do unarmed monks deal extra damage types like weapons get for enchantments?

    Quote Originally Posted by nijineko View Post
    There is a little known way to directly enchant the limbs of a creature in 3.5. The problem with direct body-enchanting is the issue of "masterwork" quality. creature's bodies are not considered masterwork, regardless of how well one takes care of it (ie: monks, who really should count as masterwork, as well as be proficient in unarmed strikes, seriously).

    However, with Lifeshaping, one can make limbs masterwork quality. Once a limb is considered masterwork, then it is a valid target for direct enchanting.

    Lifeshaped grafts, masterwork or not, have an upkeep cost in the form of expensive and artificial nutrients, and a lifespan much shorter than the host organism which would require eventual replacement... so this may not be ideal for everyone.
    Where would lifeshaping be? only thing I can find on it would be third party.

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    Default Re: How do unarmed monks deal extra damage types like weapons get for enchantments?

    Quote Originally Posted by animewatcha View Post
    Where would lifeshaping be? only thing I can find on it would be third party.
    Mini-history lesson for the benefit of all of GitP.

    Back when 3.5 came out, WotC had an Other Worlds page on their site (on the internet archive if you want to check it out) which listed the Official Sites of 3.5 versions of campaign worlds they declined to do themselves. Most people mistakenly think these sites are 3rd party, but they are not.

    The difference is that the license between these Official Sites for 3.5 is one of Co-Ownership, thus everything they produce is co-owned by WotC. No other 3rd Party company or group has this co-ownership clause in their license. Thus the Official Sites are in fact 1st party content as per WotC ownership. This unique Official Site license is still ongoing, and does not end unless a 3rd party licenses the specific setting (such as happened with Ravenloft when it was licensed by SSS, thus ending the special Official Site status and license for the Kargatane site), or unless WotC someday releases a statement cancelling the special 1st party status and Official Site License of the Official Sites.

    ***

    Having covered all of that, the official co-owned site for Dark Sun, Athas.org has a Lifeshaping Handbook that is not only official, but also 1st party as per their special license.

    ***

    Interestingly enough, even though WotC released a 4th ed version of Dark Sun, they did not cancel the Official Site status of Athas (probably because the Official Site License is only valid for 3rd edition material).
    Last edited by nijineko; 2020-06-22 at 10:47 AM.
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    Default Re: How do unarmed monks deal extra damage types like weapons get for enchantments?

    You might be able to get away with asking your DM about enchanted gauntlets. There's an "official" FAQ out there that says they don't work, but that ruling seems largely arbitrary considering that the same FAQ says that touch abilities work through gauntlets as if you were bare-handed, the gauntlet is listed in the PHB on the weapons table as being an unarmed attack rather than an actual weapon, and the description of the gauntlet itself says it's treated for all intents and purposes as an unarmed attack. Some people seem to regard the FAQ as being on par with RAW errata, but many regard it as being as official as a DM advice column in a gaming magazine.
    People also like to point out that it says "unarmed attack" and not "unarmed strike," but the glossary in the PHB simply defines an unarmed strike as the result of a successful unarmed attack and the two terms are used interchangeably - including the entry for the monk's unarmed strike, which says that monks deal increased damage with unarmed strikes and monks of different size categories adjust the damage of their unarmed attacks accordingly. An attack roll with a gauntlet is an unarmed attack; a successful attack roll with a gauntlet results in an unarmed strike. Everything in the core rules regarding unarmed attacks, unarmed strikes, and gauntlets points towards gauntlets functioning as enhanceable fists.

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    Default Re: How do unarmed monks deal extra damage types like weapons get for enchantments?

    Just strap on some gauntlets or ki/hand wraps and enchant as weapons. Done.

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    Default Re: How do unarmed monks deal extra damage types like weapons get for enchantments?

    Quote Originally Posted by skunk3 View Post
    Just strap on some gauntlets or ki/hand wraps and enchant as weapons. Done.
    This. Just use gauntlets. I'm not sure why everyone else is overthinking this.

    Quote Originally Posted by nijineko View Post
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    Mini-history lesson for the benefit of all of GitP.

    Back when 3.5 came out, WotC had an Other Worlds page on their site (on the internet archive if you want to check it out) which listed the Official Sites of 3.5 versions of campaign worlds they declined to do themselves. Most people mistakenly think these sites are 3rd party, but they are not.

    The difference is that the license between these Official Sites for 3.5 is one of Co-Ownership, thus everything they produce is co-owned by WotC. No other 3rd Party company or group has this co-ownership clause in their license. Thus the Official Sites are in fact 1st party content as per WotC ownership. This unique Official Site license is still ongoing, and does not end unless a 3rd party licenses the specific setting (such as happened with Ravenloft when it was licensed by SSS, thus ending the special Official Site status and license for the Kargatane site), or unless WotC someday releases a statement cancelling the special 1st party status and Official Site License of the Official Sites.

    ***

    Having covered all of that, the official co-owned site for Dark Sun, Athas.org has a Lifeshaping Handbook that is not only official, but also 1st party as per their special license.

    ***

    Interestingly enough, even though WotC released a 4th ed version of Dark Sun, they did not cancel the Official Site status of Athas (probably because the Official Site License is only valid for 3rd edition material).
    Link please
    Last edited by Bohandas; 2020-06-26 at 02:55 AM.
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    Default Re: How do unarmed monks deal extra damage types like weapons get for enchantments?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bohandas View Post
    This. Just use gauntlets. I'm not sure why everyone else is overthinking this.
    Because you can't flurry with gauntlets unless you invest into feats/prc, that's why.

    Gauntlets are Martial Weapons and not listed as monk weapon, even if you do unarmed dmg with them.

    So, there are not the best option for an "unarmed monk" build. But I you would go with a Superior Unarmed Strike (feat) or Swordsage build (which both don't have flurry), you would be fine with enchanting your gloves.

    Quote Originally Posted by skunk3 View Post
    Just strap on some gauntlets or ki/hand wraps and enchant as weapons. Done.
    gauntlets see above.

    what ki/hand wraps are you talking about?
    I'm only aware of "Ki Straps"(MIC) and those are considered gloves only and don't count as weapon (and thus can't be enchanted as weapons). Are there any that I am missing?
    So far I only know hand wrap weapons from 3.5 based PC games, but they ain't RAW in pen & paper 3.5.

    Can you give me any source which wraps you mean?

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    Default Re: How do unarmed monks deal extra damage types like weapons get for enchantments?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gruftzwerg View Post
    Because you can't flurry with gauntlets unless you invest into feats/prc, that's why.

    Gauntlets are Martial Weapons and not listed as monk weapon, even if you do unarmed dmg with them.
    They're not martial weapons. They're categorized as an unarmed attack on the simple weapons table, in a category consisting only of itself and unarmed strike. They aren't even classified as being light, one-handed, or two-handed weapons because you're still unarmed while using them. An attack with a gauntlet, as per its description, is considered an unarmed attack with the sole exception of being able to deal lethal damage without IUS. You're still not considered armed and provoke an AAO for attacking without IUS.
    An attack with gauntlets is an unarmed attack. The result of a successful unarmed attack is an unarmed strike. The description of gauntlets even says, "This metal glove lets you deal lethal damage rather than nonlethal damage with unarmed strikes," indicating that an attack with a gauntlet is still an unarmed strike. Flurry of blows doesn't say it works with the monk's bare fists and special monk weapons - it says the monk can only use unarmed strikes and special monk weapons. Flurry of blows works with unarmed strikes. An attack with a gauntlet is an unarmed strike. Therefore, flurry of blows must work with gauntlets.

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    Default Re: How do unarmed monks deal extra damage types like weapons get for enchantments?

    Quote Originally Posted by Vaern View Post
    They're not martial weapons. They're categorized as an unarmed attack on the simple weapons table, in a category consisting only of itself and unarmed strike. They aren't even classified as being light, one-handed, or two-handed weapons because you're still unarmed while using them. An attack with a gauntlet, as per its description, is considered an unarmed attack with the sole exception of being able to deal lethal damage without IUS. You're still not considered armed and provoke an AAO for attacking without IUS.
    An attack with gauntlets is an unarmed attack. The result of a successful unarmed attack is an unarmed strike. The description of gauntlets even says, "This metal glove lets you deal lethal damage rather than nonlethal damage with unarmed strikes," indicating that an attack with a gauntlet is still an unarmed strike. Flurry of blows doesn't say it works with the monk's bare fists and special monk weapons - it says the monk can only use unarmed strikes and special monk weapons. Flurry of blows works with unarmed strikes. An attack with a gauntlet is an unarmed strike. Therefore, flurry of blows must work with gauntlets.
    Ok, they are "Simple Weapons", point for you. But that doesn't change the outcome.

    1. They are still listed as 2 separate weapons and the gauntlet is still not a monk weapon and thus can't be used with flurry. Each of them requires their own weapon related feats (e.g. Weapon Focus/Specialization).

    2. When you attack and want to benefit from your gauntlets, you have to use your gauntlets as weapon for attack rolls and not your unarmed strike (which you still could use with any non glove part of your body, but wouldn't profit from the gauntlets anymore). And if you are using your gauntlets, you are not using a monk weapon.

    3.
    Quote Originally Posted by SRD
    Gauntlet

    This metal glove lets you deal lethal damage rather than nonlethal damage with unarmed strikes. A strike with a gauntlet is otherwise considered an unarmed attack. The cost and weight given are for a single gauntlet. Medium and heavy armors (except breastplate) come with gauntlets.
    unarmed attack != unarmed strike

    When you attack with gauntlets, you still have to deal with AoO when you attack some "armed", since you are still considered "unarmed". That's what the sentence is referring to and not unarmed strikes as you assumed.

    a further indicator for this is that spiked gauntlets have the ability to let you count as "armed".
    Quote Originally Posted by SRD
    Gauntlet, Spiked

    Your opponent cannot use a disarm action to disarm you of spiked gauntlets. The cost and weight given are for a single gauntlet. An attack with a spiked gauntlet is considered an armed attack.
    __________________________

    btw, another reason why gauntlets are considered bad are the price when you want to have 2 (one for each hand). Be it as fallback option when you mainhand is occupied/disabled/whatsoever or when you want to go the TWF route. For gauntlets you have to pay the full price for the 2nd while other options give you up to 1/2 off the price for the 2nd/3rd.

    And as last, since your unarmed strikes may count as natural attacks for purposes of buffs/enchantments you can enchant em as entire category (like claws) as "natural weapon (unarmed strikes) and only pay once for any body-part you might wanna use.

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