OOTS #1202 - The Discussion Thread

[Peelee]

That does seem in the spirit of AD&D (although not 3.5e so much), but I think there's a simpler reason why Durkon wouldn't get any XP from those fights: He wasn't the one fighting. Durkon* is an entirely different character, one that Durkon was actively trying to thwart, so there's no reason Durkon should gain experience from Durkon* winning battles.

It might be quite reasonable to give Durkon XP from outwitting Durkon* from within the confines of his own mind, though. I doubt he would have gotten enough XP for it to make a difference, but hey, maybe it was a story award or something.

If you treat experience as, well, experience, then Durkon certainly experienced everything, regardless of whether he wanted to or not, or was in control or not. His actual experience would be the same as the vampire's, so in theory his XP should rise just as the vampire's does. If you want to think about it like that. If I were DMing, I'd totally allow that, but I wouldn't speak up at all I was playing and the DM chose to not.

[Vrock Bait]

If you treat experience as, well, experience, then Durkon certainly experienced everything, regardless of whether he wanted to or not, or was in control or not. His actual experience would be the same as the vampire's, so in theory his XP should rise just as the vampire's does. If you want to think about it like that. If I were DMing, I'd totally allow that, but I wouldn't speak up at all I was playing and the DM chose to not.

I was going on a rant on how XP was an abstract representation of muscle memory, but I then remembered how XP is a literal thing in OotS.

So in D&D talk, dying removes all undead-based templates and applies the petitioner template. So when he comes back, he should still have the XP because it was all earned while he had an acquired template. If you still gain XP when you become a lycanthrope in-game, I see no reason why this would be different.

[bunsen_h]

It might be quite reasonable to give Durkon XP from outwitting Durkon* from within the confines of his own mind, though. I doubt he would have gotten enough XP for it to make a difference, but hey, maybe it was a story award or something.

Durkon's efforts were a key part of defeating Durkon*, for all that they were internal. He struggled, he kept to his path and paid in pain, he learned from what he was doing. He should get at least an equal share of the XP from beating the vampires.

[NobleCuriosity]

I don't think I've ever seen the reason I play DND outside of my imagination before Giant.

Thanks :)

What is it? The fantasy of flight? Dramatic farewells? Writing messages in the sky?

Potion gouging?

[bunsen_h]

If you treat experience as, well, experience, then Durkon certainly experienced everything, regardless of whether he wanted to or not, or was in control or not. His actual experience would be the same as the vampire's, so in theory his XP should rise just as the vampire's does. If you want to think about it like that. If I were DMing, I'd totally allow that, but I wouldn't speak up at all I was playing and the DM chose to not.

Per the AD&D DMG (no bloody 2, 3, 3.5, etc.), "No experience points may be gained by a player character while in lycanthrope form." There's also stuff about losing levels and XP due to an alignment change, but that's not quite so relevant to the current case. I'm not seeing anything specifically about paladins losing those things due to alignment change, more than any other character types, though of course they lose all of the nifty paladin features.

[Jasdoif]

Per the AD&D DMG (no bloody 2, 3, 3.5, etc.)

Of course not; the blood stains mess with the ink.

[Vrock Bait]

Per the AD&D DMG (no bloody 2, 3, 3.5, etc.), "No experience points may be gained by a player character while in lycanthrope form." There's also stuff about losing levels and XP due to an alignment change, but that's not quite so relevant to the current case. I'm not seeing anything specifically about paladins losing those things due to alignment change, more than any other character types, though of course they lose all of the nifty paladin features.

You’re off by an Edition margin of two and a half.

[Peelee]

Per the AD&D DMG (no bloody 2, 3, 3.5, etc.), "No experience points may be gained by a player character while in lycanthrope form." There's also stuff about losing levels and XP due to an alignment change, but that's not quite so relevant to the current case. I'm not seeing anything specifically about paladins losing those things due to alignment change, more than any other character types, though of course they lose all of the nifty paladin features.

That's cool to know, but I'm not sure what AD&D has to do with Stickworld.

Conversely, "I won dungeons and dragons! And it was advanced!"

[bunsen_h]

That's cool to know, but I'm not sure what AD&D has to do with Stickworld.

Just bringing it up for the sake of argument. Is there something comparable in 3.5 regarding not earning XP while in such a state?

[gatemansgc]

Just now noticed the misnumbering? Guess he really doesn't read the fora.
Looks like Blackwing will not have fond memories of the Mechane

Also, it occurs to me that they could, in theory, be mistaken for mist-form vampires. But I'm sure no such wacky hijinks will occur. What are the rules for vamps misting in 3.5? I'm certain this was discussed relatively recently.

i'm sad he didn't label this one as 1201 for the lulz.

[Jasdoif]

Just bringing it up for the sake of argument. Is there something comparable in 3.5 regarding not earning XP while in such a state?

No. Of course, 3.5 is particularly noncommittal about unusual cases of gaining experience in general, so this is hardly surprising....

[Fyraltari]

That does seem in the spirit of AD&D (although not 3.5e so much), but I think there's a simpler reason why Durkon wouldn't get any XP from those fights: He wasn't the one fighting. Durkon* is an entirely different character, one that Durkon was actively trying to thwart, so there's no reason Durkon should gain experience from Durkon* winning battles.

It might be quite reasonable to give Durkon XP from outwitting Durkon* from within the confines of his own mind, though. I doubt he would have gotten enough XP for it to make a difference, but hey, maybe it was a story award or something.

Durkon absorbed the vampire’s memory after his death, remember? Since he literally got the vampire’s experience, he should also have his experience points.

[urbanwolf]

Level Adjustment. Vampires have a +8 LA, so if Betty was 2nd level, then Vampire Betty would be treated as 10th level for the purposes of gaining experience.

Vampire Durkon would have been treated somewhere past epic level, and would not have gained much, if any, experience. Even if he did, once Durkon is raised, he loses a level regardless (going by the stock rules).

If Betty was level 2 she would be a vampire spawn. I am fun at parties!

[Peelee]

If Betty was level 2 she would be a vampire spawn. I am fun at parties!

You'd think so, but Betty is a Racian, a race with the Special Quality of becoming full vampires and not vampire spawns if vampirized. Booyakasha!

[jwhouk]

Durkon absorbed the vampire’s memory after his death, remember? Since he literally got the vampire’s experience, he should also have his experience points.

I'd have to think that if this was a real RP group, this would be the tack that whoever is playing Durkon would take to get those XP.

[goodpeople25]

You'd think so, but Betty is a Racian, a race with the Special Quality of becoming full vampires and not vampire spawns if vampirized. Booyakasha!

Does the Special Quality apply on energy drain as well or just the typical vampire creating blood drain?

[Windscion]

Indeed, and that's why I added that bit about the stock rules; I don't think that was enforced, at least so far as losing two levels. Just a theory of mine, I don't really have anything to back it up with.

Considering that Roy commented (#990) that he just barely caught up to where he was before he died, the penalty for being raised from the dead appears to apply. (OTOH, there could be a house rule that less than a hour doesn't count.)

[Doug Lampert]

That does seem in the spirit of AD&D (although not 3.5e so much), but I think there's a simpler reason why Durkon wouldn't get any XP from those fights: He wasn't the one fighting. Durkon* is an entirely different character, one that Durkon was actively trying to thwart, so there's no reason Durkon should gain experience from Durkon* winning battles.

It might be quite reasonable to give Durkon XP from outwitting Durkon* from within the confines of his own mind, though. I doubt he would have gotten enough XP for it to make a difference, but hey, maybe it was a story award or something.

Greg is +2 to CR, so Greg alone was worth 60% of the XP Durkon needed to level if we credit him with a solo kill.

IIRC the rulebooks indicated that dead guys still got the XP for their final battle (XP award rules mostly aren't SRD). So Durkon presumably got the XP to level (as he had some XP when he died and then defeated Greg), he then lost that level from the first raise dead, then lost a level he'd already had to the second raise dead.

[Schroeswald]

He’s still not level 18 though, which is how high he’d have to be to cast one Wind Walk under normal rules, which is in fact the original point of this thing.

[whitehelm]

Very nice, although all this cute and happy stuff is making me nervous about what comes next.

Minor plot hole: Roy mentions that they used Wind Walk to get into Bleedingham without proper paperwork, so the rest of the party should already be familiar with it.

Only Roy, Belkar, and Durkon used Wind Walk to get in to Bleedingham, the other 3 were carried in by the bounty hunters. Elan used Wind Walk to get to Greysky (which he mentions) so Haley, V, and Minrah are all doing it for the first time. That's not a plot hole at all.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Durkon absorbed the vampire’s memory after his death, remember? Since he literally got the vampire’s experience, he should also have his experience points.

Which would be immediately removed by his death and resurrection, since that reduces your XP to half way between the levels.

[danielxcutter]

Which would be immediately removed by his death and resurrection, since that reduces your XP to half way between the levels.

If Durkon* leveled enough, that might have stuck. And I'm fairly sure that NPCs use CR; I believe Malack is implied to be a Yuan-Ti Abomination and he actually has character levels.

[Cerlis]

didnt the author say like YEARS ago that the D&D rules only apply to the comic as befits the plot and any form of consistency he prefers to maintain.

if one wants to force rules on Durkon's situation then you would apply it as you normally did. Durkon died, he was brought back, so he's Ish about where he was when he died minus a level (unless that was true resurrection).

-------------

Further, no i dont think Haley is doing anything to 'cover their tracks' its a 3 panel joke dedicated to a bait and switch. Elan is excited by the windwalk spell. Thus the first panel shows him zig zagging again like he did with durkon. the 2nd panel devoted to him doing it alot more leads one to think that one of the others will comment on it.

and bamf it turns out its NOT elan , but 'haha' one of the other members is feeling a bit childish and having fun with the spell.

-------
Durkon telling the others they will look like clouds is one of those "The author is telling you up front facts, so there is no ambiguity, through the reasonable actions of their characters" its entirely possible for practiced casters to figure this out, however it would be do to Redcloak noticing a Fog bank approaching despite the lack of humidity or counter to the current wind. The clear outline of the party is for our benefit (and required to complete the joke), in the same way, as someone pointed out on the first page, that the invisibility lines are there.

[KorvinStarmast]

The clear outline of the party is for our benefit (and required to complete the joke), in the same way, as someone pointed out on the first page, that the invisibility lines are there.

that's how I see it ...

[Rezby]

Speaking of cross hatching on their sprites after they finish a Tomb-crawl, has there been a single one yet on the MITD's umbrella? He (O-Chul calls him, "a good man") did get jacked up after Girard's Gate exploded, so it's possible to damage his umbrella. At least the one pre-art upgrade.

But AFAIK, and am willing to check, he hasn't been touched yet. Just what is his DR?! Or does he just have Fast Healing out the wazoo?

That’s because Redcloak and Xykon don’t let him fight. He’s their secret weapon that they hold back until they need him. That one time he got damaged was from an explosion, not active combat.

[Mandor]

"People of Vapor"? Priceless. Also liked skosh vs smidge, and Blackwings general opinion of the Mechane.

[Oddstar]

That's Andi. I'm pretty sure she's still all kinds of resentful for the Order helping thwart her short-lived mutiny, and thus doesn't want to bother seeing them off as she goes about her duties.

But the Order didn't help thwart her mutiny. They didn't even know about it.

[hamishspence]

True - but I can believe that she still resents the Order, because they are the ones whose mission Bandana was facilitating.

I can believe that in Andi's mind "If it wasn't for them, the situation which resulted in me mutinying, would never have happened".


Andi's not the only one with a slight frown here though - Kwesi (the one with the pink hair) is too.

Possibly Kwesi is one of the junior engineers, given that she's the one checking the engines and fuel?

https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1065.html

If so, this might be why she was quick to accept Andi's claiming the leadership:

https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1064.html

because she's always been in Andi's department.

[Cazero]

Andi's not the only one with a slight frown here though - Kwesi (the one with the pink hair) is too.

Probably because she isn't frowning. Her facial expression is the exact same neutral expression every character has by default.

[Wizard_Lizard]

Well that was hilarious.
"Good luck saving the world, it's where I keep most of my stuff." I swear I've heard something like that somewhere, can't put my finger on where though...