OOTS #1202 - The Discussion Thread

[bunsen_h]

"Good luck saving the world, it's where I keep most of my stuff." I swear I've heard something like that somewhere, can't put my finger on where though...

"Have fun storming the castle!"

"You think it'll work?"

"It'd take a miracle."

[Dilvish]

So that's what "God" needed with a starship!

Necrocomicon and Rizzer, thank you both for the mental images.

[Oddstar]

"Have fun storming the castle!"

"You think it'll work?"

"It'd take a miracle."

I see you are a muppet of culture and taste.

On a more serious note, I do think it is interesting that Haley is hugging the woman in the polka-dot headscarf, as she was the one who trained Haley in knife-fighting, and she was also the one who helped Julio train Elan as a Dashing Swordsman. I also liked that Elan is shaking Bandana's hand, because he is the member of the Order with the closest connection to the crew of the Mechane. So I thought those were some nice touches.

[Ergaster]

Is there a gender-neutral version of "lads and lasses?" I've heard "gentlefolk" as a gender-neutral "ladies and gentlemen" (and the first time I heard it was from another webcomic.) But I don't know about "lads" or "lasses."

I don't know about "lads and lasses", but a modern (somewhat informal) alternative to "ladies and gentlemen" is "guy, gals, and nonbinary pals"

[bunsen_h]

Which has gotten the boys banned from bringing the books to school: some people have a problem with the language.

What was the problem with the language? The most possibly-school-inappropriate thing that I can think of is a few instances of "boobies" and "boobs".

[Peelee]

I don't know about "lads and lasses", but a modern (somewhat informal) alternative to "ladies and gentlemen" is "guy, gals, and nonbinary pals"

That one rolls off the tongue way better than its predecessors.

[Ghosty]

That’s because Redcloak and Xykon don’t let him fight. He’s their secret weapon that they hold back until they need him. That one time he got damaged was from an explosion, not active combat.

'Fights tough enough that Xykon actually gets XP' doesn't really jibe with 'Fight where I can hold back party members from getting involved.' The enemy gets a vote on that. Unless you're saying they just stash the MITD at the door to that particular cavern while the rest of the party, including Greyview and Oona, duke it out with whatever inhabitants of the cavern exist.

Everybody looks beat-up when returning from those fights. Except the MITD.

[Schroeswald]

'Fights tough enough that Xykon actually gets XP' doesn't really jibe with 'Fight where I can hold back party members from getting involved.' The enemy gets a vote on that. Unless you're saying they just stash the MITD at the door to that particular cavern while the rest of the party, including Greyview and Oona, duke it out with whatever inhabitants of the cavern exist.

Everybody looks beat-up when returning from those fights. Except the MITD.

'Fights tough enough to destroy Xykon's body' and 'Fight where I keep my Monster in the Darkness" don't jibe very well, except well, that happened, I definitely think that Xykon takes the monster with him just in case something worth a reveal shows up, but I don't think a few monsters that Xykon might get a bit of XP off of is enough for that.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Everybody looks beat-up when returning from those fights. Except the MITD.

MitD is surrounded by impenetrable darkness. He is not his umbrella - if he was ordered to participate in any of the fights, he might have dropped it, fought, then picked it back up. He himself might have been damaged or not, but we wouldn't see the marks in the darkness.

Grey Wolf

[littlebum2002]

I don't know about "lads and lasses", but a modern (somewhat informal) alternative to "ladies and gentlemen" is "guy, gals, and nonbinary pals"

That one rolls off the tongue way better than its predecessors.

It does, but it can get even better if you shorten it to "guys, gals and enby pals". "Enby" was created specifically for the reason that "nonbinary" is such a mouthful to say.

Nonbinary -> NB -> Enby

[bunsen_h]

It does, but it can get even better if you shorten it to "guys, gals and enby pals". "Enby" was created specifically for the reason that "nonbinary" is such a mouthful to say.

Nonbinary -> NB -> Enby

It works fine if your audience can reasonably be expected to all be familiar with the term. The first time I encountered it, it was in text, and I had to spend a couple of minutes looking it up. If one's first encounter is spoken, it's going to be confusing, especially if there's possible uncertainty regarding "en"/"em", "bee"/"pee", etc.

[Ghosty]

'Fights tough enough to destroy Xykon's body' and 'Fight where I keep my Monster in the Darkness" don't jibe very well, except well, that happened, I definitely think that Xykon takes the monster with him just in case something worth a reveal shows up, but I don't think a few monsters that Xykon might get a bit of XP off of is enough for that.

'Plot needs' get to bat last. We all know the story doesn't run by the strict rules of 3.5, and it is much better for it. Dorukan's Dungeon ended in a far more entertaining fashion than Xykon simply Meteor Storming the Order---as strict adherence to the rules would have made extremely likely---once it was apparent they weren't going to bypass that Glyph or Rune for him.

I thought that Xykon was at sufficiently high level, and then there's his high level adjustment template to boot, that he basically never gets additional experience unless he's fighting things like Demigods or Great Wyrms or the like. (Poor Shelby). Foes like those tend to have very broad, wide-ranging ways to cause heavy damage, hence all of the dings and dents on the party when they return from one of the caverns.

Except for the MITD. It just seems odd he's never even scratched, unless he's got truly amazing DR and coupled with a fairly high healing rate.

We'll know why when he steps out of the Darkness, I guess.

[Fyraltari]

It works fine if your audience can reasonably be expected to all be familiar with the term. The first time I encountered it, it was in text, and I had to spend a couple of minutes looking it up. If one's first encounter is spoken, it's going to be confusing, especially if there's possible uncertainty regarding "en"/"em", "bee"/"pee", etc.

I’d like to meet the person who thinks anyone who introduce a subject by saying ‘guys, gals and military police pals’.

[Peelee]

I’d like to meet the person who thinks anyone who introduce a subject by saying ‘guys, gals and military police pals’.

I could see Hawkeye Pierce doing that.

[Rogar Demonblud]

MP is also Member of Parliament, plus maybe a dozen other things. And the sound can also be rendered MB, MD, ND, ME, NE, NP, MT and NT, depending on enunciation.

[Fyraltari]

I could see Hawkeye Pierce doing that.

Well, I don’t know who that is but they sound interesting.

[Rogar Demonblud]

One of the main characters from M*A*S*H. He's a sexist alcoholic hypocrite who spends pretty much the entire series thumbing his nose at anything resembling authority, secure in the knowledge that as a main character he's immune to consequences.

[Sindeloke]

That's quite the maverick take on Hawkeye. Not unfair, but certainly unusual.

I favor "comrades and gentlefolk" as a "ladies and gentlemen" replacement, but if I were being informal I can't imagine wasting breath on any variation of "guys and gals" when I could just say "y'all."

Or I suppose "all y'all" for a Southern audience, since the Southern y'all is singular (in contrast to the Midwest plural y'all I grew up with).

[Peelee]

One of the main characters from M*A*S*H. He's a sexist alcoholic hypocrite who spends pretty much the entire series thumbing his nose at anything resembling authority, secure in the knowledge that as a main character he's immune to consequences.

He wasn't too terribly hypocritical that I recall. He didn't disrespect authority so much as he disrespected army authority, given that he was there completely against his will and also wholly opposed to the war (and killing in general). Sexist and alcoholic, yes, and those largely do to being a product of its time (I haven't read the book or seen the movie, but the TV version was at least adamantly and ferociously against racism, and even had a fair amount of tolerance for gay men, which was far beyond what one could expect of a character in the 70's portraying a character in the 50's, at least from what I understand).

That's quite the maverick take on Hawkeye. Not unfair, but certainly unusual.

I favor "comrades and gentlefolk" as a "ladies and gentlemen" replacement, but if I were being informal I can't imagine wasting breath on any variation of "guys and gals" when I could just say "y'all."

Or I suppose "all y'all" for a Southern audience, since the Southern y'all is singular (in contrast to the Midwest plural y'all I grew up with).

"Y'all" is for smaller groups. "All y'all" is for larger groups.

[littlebum2002]

It works fine if your audience can reasonably be expected to all be familiar with the term. The first time I encountered it, it was in text, and I had to spend a couple of minutes looking it up. If one's first encounter is spoken, it's going to be confusing, especially if there's possible uncertainty regarding "en"/"em", "bee"/"pee", etc.

True, but if you are Enby then you most likely know what it means, and if you aren't then it doesn't matter anyway since you fit into the other 2 categories. Most people will just assume it's an inside joke they dont understand.

What was the problem with the language? The most possibly-school-inappropriate thing that I can think of is a few instances of "boobies" and "boobs".

My kids are 7 and 9 and they are reading the books right now for the first time, and i absolutely would ask another parent before showing it to their kids. Besides "boobs" Haley also sometimes says another "b word" that this forum censors that many parents might find inappropriate for kids that age. And even if you look past the language, there is quite a few sexually suggestive remarks (Sabine sleeping with 5 people in 3 hours, Belkar looking up Tsusiko's skirt, and a decent amount of sexual activity) and a LOT of the glorification of violence (mainly by Belkar, but some others as well).

If this was a movie, it would be solidly rated PG-13. I'm ok with my kids reading it, but i know a lot of parents of their classmates wouldn't be.

[Peelee]

True, but if you are Enby then you most likely know what it means, and if you aren't then it doesn't matter anyway since you fit into the other 2 categories. Most people will just assume it's an inside joke they dont understand.



My kids are 7 and 9 and they are reading the books right now for the first time, and i absolutely would ask another parent before showing it to their kids. Besides "boobs" Haley also sometimes says a "b word" that this forum censors that many parents might find inappropriate for kids that age. And even if you look past the language, there is quite a few sexually suggestive remarks (Sabine sleeping with 5 people in 3 hours, Belkar looking up Tsusiko's skirt, and a decent amount of sexual activity) and a LOT of the glorification of violence (mainly by Belkar, but some others as well).

If this was a movie, it would be solidly rated PG-13. I'm ok with my kids reading it, but i know a lot of parents of their classmates wouldn't be.

I don't believe the forum censors "bitch".* I would agree with the PG-13 rating, though.

And the Preview Post button proves me right!

[Rogar Demonblud]

He wasn't too terribly hypocritical that I recall. He didn't disrespect authority so much as he disrespected army authority, given that he was there completely against his will and also wholly opposed to the war (and killing in general). Sexist and alcoholic, yes, and those largely do to being a product of its time (I haven't read the book or seen the movie, but the TV version was at least adamantly and ferociously against racism, and even had a fair amount of tolerance for gay men, which was far beyond what one could expect of a character in the 70's portraying a character in the 50's, at least from what I understand).

From the letters from home he was a terror in school because he refused to kowtow to teachers, principals or professors, and his attitude towards any form of elected official was worse. He even dissed that boxing champ Mulcahy idolized. And he never really showed much concern for others unless he could use it to get under Frank's skin (or Flagg, for that matter). Many of the best episodes involved somebody taking Hawkeye down a peg or three (the best perhaps being Night of the Gun, where Frank one ups the Swamp Rats because they give Radar the Innocent Until Proven Guilty treatment, but go after Frank because he's Guilty Until Proven Guilty, but the one where Margaret demands to be treated with simple respect is pretty good too).

[Peelee]

From the letters from home he was a terror in school because he refused to kowtow to teachers, principals or professors, and his attitude towards any form of elected official was worse. He even dissed that boxing champ Mulcahy idolized. And he never really showed much concern for others unless he could use it to get under Frank's skin (or Flagg, for that matter). Many of the best episodes involved somebody taking Hawkeye down a peg or three (the best perhaps being Night of the Gun, where Frank one ups the Swamp Rats because they give Radar the Innocent Until Proven Guilty treatment, but go after Frank because he's Guilty Until Proven Guilty, but the one where Margaret demands to be treated with simple respect is pretty good too).

Yeah, he was a bit wild in academia (there was also the super early episode where he tried to help a Korean helping at the camp get into medical school in the US, and the dean he wrote said "if you do to the army what you did to this university, we're finished." Though Pierce typically doesn't mind others flaunting his authority so long as it's not during surgery/dealing with legitimate medical issues.

And I would argue the best episodes were the ones where Winchester let his armor down and showed his humanity for what it was. He's far and away my favorite character.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Agreed on Winchester, with the caveat that Mulcahy had quite a few good episodes as well (in fact, I'm not sure either had a really bad episode).

[littlebum2002]

I don't believe the forum censors "bitch".* I would agree with the PG-13 rating, though.

And the Preview Post button proves me right!

Huh, the more you know.

Yeah, he was a bit wild in academia (there was also the super early episode where he tried to help a Korean helping at the camp get into medical school in the US, and the dean he wrote said "if you do to the army what you did to this university, we're finished." Though Pierce typically doesn't mind others flaunting his authority so long as it's not during surgery/dealing with legitimate medical issues.

And I would argue the best episodes were the ones where Winchester let his armor down and showed his humanity for what it was. He's far and away my favorite character.

I Agree, Charles was much more interesting than Frank. I would also venture to say that BJ was better than Trapper and Colonel Potter was better than Henry Blake.

Also, for those that didn't watch Futurama, this is an excellent parody of Hawkeye: https://vimeo.com/121098214

[Peelee]

Agreed on Winchester, with the caveat that Mulcahy had quite a few good episodes as well (in fact, I'm not sure either had a really bad episode).

Oh I fully agree. Frankly, my biggest issue with M*A*S*H (other than the shockingly large amount of severe sexual assault that I never thought about when I was younger) is that they kept trying to push Gary Burghoff as 19 when dude was clearly pushing 40.

I Agree, Charles was much more interesting than Frank. I would also venture to say that BJ was better than Trapper and Colonel Potter was better than Henry Blake.

The Charles/Frank was the biggest shift, really; Frank had absolutely no redeeming qualities, while Charles was a genuinely good person underneath the elitist attitude and snobbery, and he actually cared about helping people. Plus, he was able to edge out Pierce on the medical talent, IIRC. Though I definitely appreciated that BJ and Potter both moved away from the rampant cheating that Trapper and Blake wallowed in.

[PontificatusRex]

Hawkeye is one of the best exemplars of Chaotic Good you'll see in pop culture, in my opinion.

Sexist? Maybe about as much as an average American male in the early 1950's? I watched the show a lot and I don't recall any time he ever dismissed a woman's ideas or point of view because of her gender. Seems that his work with the nurses certainly would teach him to respect their competence and abilities, though he is a member of a system where all the doctors are men and is clearly going to have unconscious biases.

[Rockphed]

I could see Hawkeye Pierce doing that.

I don't think Hawkeye saw MPs as a different class of being. He would probably have called out "generals" or "brass, but I probably shouldn't pronounce the 'br'".

And I would argue the best episodes were the ones where Winchester let his armor down and showed his humanity for what it was. He's far and away my favorite character.

Charles Emerson Winchester was a snob who had very little experience to tell him that his snobbery was not well justified. He was also a brilliant surgeon (if not great at working quickly), a lover of all classical music, and genuinely charitable. One of my favorites was when he gave an orphanage a box of chocolate bars and spent most of the episode enraged because they had ended up on the black market. I think the other two in the top 3 are when he finds that a case of his is a great pianist who will never play with his right hand again and when he reads someone the riot act because they are treating someone with a stutter as an idiot.

Also, where Frank mostly played the same "I am everything bad about men" tune in pretty much every episode he was in, Winchester had a more varied repertoire. I believe the first episode with Winchester ended with him playing a prank on BJ and Pierce. He certainly spent significant time being an antagonist who was no more wrong than the protagonists. Also, I don't think he ever complained about who was in charge in the OR, which was a staple of the early episodes.

[Fyraltari]

The more I read y’all posts about this M*A*S*H thing, the less likely it is that it’s about cooking potatoes.

[Jasdoif]

The more I read y’all posts about this M*A*S*H thing, the less likely it is that it’s about cooking potatoes.

It's short for "Mobile Army Surgical Hospital". Given the setting and genre, it's certainly plausible potatoes were being peeled at some point.