OOTS #1202 - The Discussion Thread

[Rockphed]

It's short for "Mobile Army Surgical Hospital". Given the setting and genre, it's certainly plausible potatoes were being peeled at some point.

Several episodes include jibes at the army's tendency to provide horrible food. One was about a chef who was sent to the front with a rifle (that made him more of a menace to his fellow soldiers than to the enemy). The main cast almost never gets KP (since they are mostly officers), but I think we do see the kitchen from time to time.

Also, despite being "mobile", they spend almost all of their time in the same spot.

[Peelee]

I don't think Hawkeye saw MPs as a different class of being. He would probably have called out "generals" or "brass, but I probably shouldn't pronounce the 'br'".

He wouldn't have eschewed throwing a name out for a joke, though. After all, he would carry on, carry over, carry forward, Cary Grant, cash and carry, carry me back to Old Virginia, I'll even 'hari-kari' if you show him how, but he would not carry a gun!

Charles Emerson Winchester was a snob who had very little experience to tell him that his snobbery was not well justified.

Indeed, and when confronted with the knowledge that it was not justified, he would learn from that and be humbled (such as when his sister was engaged to an Italian). Gotta love a guy who, when confronted with his shortcomings, chooses to accept the lesson.

The more I read y’all posts about this M*A*S*H thing, the less likely it is that it’s about cooking potatoes.

For all its dated flaws, M*A*S*H was a fantastic show, and had one of the best finales. Winchester's was especially heartbreaking.

Spoiler: Winchester's ending

Show

As you can tell, he was a snobbish person who thought he was above the other common folk at the camp, and often would play classical music on a phonograph as a way to block out the reality that he was in a muddy, ill-supplied mobile military hospital in a war zone. Just before the end of the war, some Chinese soldiers surrender to him. He is bemused, as he is a doctor and in no position to take POWs, but they come along to his camp, and he eventually discovers they are musicians. He tries to question them about their repertoir, but cannot through the language barrier, until he mentions Mozart, and one begins to play a small piece. He then spends most of his time teaching them another piece, until they are loaded into a truck to be returned home in a prisoner exchange. As the truck drives off, they all play the music he taught them, and he sheds a tear.

A few hours later, while performing surgery on troops being brought in from an attack, he recognizes a corpse brought in as one of the musicians, and learns they were all killed. He is racked with grief, shouting out "they were musicians, not soldiers," and after surgery he returns to his tent, and turns on his phonograph, which plays the same piece he taught the now-dead musicians. After a few seconds, he destroys the record, and admits that the music, which was always an escape from Korea for him, would now forever be a reminder.

Several episodes include jibes at the army's tendency to provide horrible food. One was about a chef who was sent to the front with a rifle (that made him more of a menace to his fellow soldiers than to the enemy). The main cast almost never gets KP (since they are mostly officers), but I think we do see the kitchen from time to time.

Also, despite being "mobile", they spend almost all of their time in the same spot.

They bugged out twice, IIRC; once under Blake and once under Potter.

[bunsen_h]

Re: Hawkeye's sexism, he made a fair bit of progress over the course of the series.

True, but if you are Enby then you most likely know what it means, and if you aren't then it doesn't matter anyway since you fit into the other 2 categories. Most people will just assume it's an inside joke they dont understand.

I think it's not good form to start an announcement with a term that will confuse listeners, even if they think it might not apply to them. It's a cognitive hiccup, so to speak; you don't want people to interrupt a smooth flow of thought with a "wait, what?"

The phrasing that I encounter regularly in the Society for Creative Anachronism is "good gentles", "gentlefolk", and such. It pretty much covers all the bases.

My kids are 7 and 9 and they are reading the books right now for the first time, and i absolutely would ask another parent before showing it to their kids. Besides "boobs" Haley also sometimes says another "b word" that this forum censors that many parents might find inappropriate for kids that age. And even if you look past the language, there is quite a few sexually suggestive remarks (Sabine sleeping with 5 people in 3 hours, Belkar looking up Tsusiko's skirt, and a decent amount of sexual activity) and a LOT of the glorification of violence (mainly by Belkar, but some others as well).

If this was a movie, it would be solidly rated PG-13. I'm ok with my kids reading it, but i know a lot of parents of their classmates wouldn't be.

I'd forgotten about "bitch". The rest of the stuff, yes, I can see that being problematic, but we were told that the problem was specifically with the language.

It would seem odd to me for the forum to censor language that was used in the comic itself.

[littlebum2002]

Oh I fully agree. Frankly, my biggest issue with M*A*S*H (other than the shockingly large amount of severe sexual assault that I never thought about when I was younger) is that they kept trying to push Gary Burghoff as 19 when dude was clearly pushing 40.

Huh. I always thought Radar was just an infantalized middle aged guy. I never relized he was supposed to be college aged until now. To be fair, many of his actions (like sleeping with a teddy bear) are just as out of place for a 30 year old to be doing as for a 19 year old to be doing.

The Charles/Frank was the biggest shift, really; Frank had absolutely no redeeming qualities, while Charles was a genuinely good person underneath the elitist attitude and snobbery, and he actually cared about helping people. Plus, he was able to edge out Pierce on the medical talent, IIRC. Though I definitely appreciated that BJ and Potter both moved away from the rampant cheating that Trapper and Blake wallowed in.

Well not only was Charles a much better surgeon than Frank but Colonel Potter was a much better commander than Henry Blake. I don't remember much about BJ or Trapper's surgical skills but I do know that BJ was better at standing up to Hawkeye on occasion. I think all 3 characters were very goofy and one dimensional and were replaced by much more well rounded and realistic characters since the show was becoming less lighthearted as the years went on.

[Rogar Demonblud]

I watched the show a lot and I don't recall any time he ever dismissed a woman's ideas or point of view because of her gender.

Off the top of my head, Nurse Doctor, where a nurse studying for medical school is disregarded with only Mulcahy helping her study. Potter orders Hawkeye to take over. He immediately tries to put her on the casting couch. Then there was the episode with the Swedish doctor who happened to also be a woman, and Hawkeye spent pretty much the entire episode belittling her professionally while also trying to get her into bed (Winchester also did the first), at least until Margaret read him the Riot Act (again). You know it's bad when BJ is creeped out by him.

They bugged out twice, IIRC; once under Blake and once under Potter.

At least thrice under Potter, once with the soldier who couldn't be moved, once when they were setting up the party for their families back in the States and once in the finale, plus references to other moves as the front shifted slightly.

[Peelee]

At least thrice under Potter, once with the soldier who couldn't be moved, once when they were setting up the party for their families back in the States and once in the finale, plus references to other moves as the front shifted slightly.

I'm not counting the finale, since that was more of a "dismantle everything, we're going home" than a "move and re-setup", which is the purpose of it being mobile. Also, maybe both the ones I'm thinking of were under Potter, then.

Then there was the episode with the Swedish doctor who happened to also be a woman, and Hawkeye spent pretty much the entire episode belittling her professionally while also trying to get her into bed (Winchester also did the first)

I can't be sure, but I want to say Winchester bristled at her being a better surgeon/doctor than he was in general, and not so much that she was a better woman doctor.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Yeah, she one-upped him in the OR, and his ego came out to play. It's probably the worst CEW episode.

Frank does have a few points in his favor. He's the only one of the Swamp Rats who can be counted on to show up sober for duty, for instance. Which is probably why he looks to be pulling doubles.

And Radar is just plain horribly written. He's some kind of clueless innocent about everything, but he grew up on a working farm (with all the biology that implies) and has buried his father and a younger brother. Plus he's been the 'man of the house' basically since elementary school. No way he's that sheltered.

Incidentally, Burghoff was the first of the original cast to try and get out of the contract. He started trying to jump ship in the second season; the closest he got was the episode when Radar was injured--he was supposed to be sent home, but the execs demanded a re-write. BTW, that bit at the end of the episode where Hawkeye trades his beer for Radar's Nehi? Alda improvised it on the first take, and they kept it.

[Peelee]

Yeah, she one-upped him in the OR, and his ego came out to play. It's probably the worst CEW episode.

Frank does have a few points in his favor. He's the only one of the Swamp Rats who can be counted on to show up sober for duty, for instance. Which is probably why he looks to be pulling doubles.

And Radar is just plain horribly written. He's some kind of clueless innocent about everything, but he grew up on a working farm (with all the biology that implies) and has buried his father and a younger brother. Plus he's been the 'man of the house' basically since elementary school. No way he's that sheltered.

Incidentally, Burghoff was the first of the original cast to try and get out of the contract. He started trying to jump ship in the second season; the closest he got was the episode when Radar was injured--he was supposed to be sent home, but the execs demanded a re-write. BTW, that bit at the end of the episode where Hawkeye trades his beer for Radar's Nehi? Alda improvised it on the first take, and they kept it.

Given that Frank was prone to things such as attempting to remove a patient's sole remaining kidney while sober, and the drunkards are the ones to catch such mistakes and save both the patient and save Burns from himself, I don't think that's worth terribly many points.

[denthor]

Andi looks unhappy any thoughts if we

A. See them again

B. If it is important

C. Could it be that she lost her share and that is really all it is

D. Wild theories

[Gnoman]

There's indications that Radar's infantilization was a coping mechanism, which is why he left his teddy bear behind when he went home.

[Fyraltari]

I'd forgotten about "bitch". The rest of the stuff, yes, I can see that being problematic, but we were told that the problem was specifically with the language.

There was also ‘skank’, ‘tramp’ and I’m sure I forget a few, probably from Belkar.

I am also never sure how bad ‘whore’ is but it probably belongs on that list.

It would seem odd to me for the forum to censor language that was used in the comic itself.

The rationale behind it is, alledgedly, that the comic cannot devolve into a flame war through bad language, unlike the forum.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Given that Frank was prone to things such as attempting to remove a patient's sole remaining kidney while sober, and the drunkards are the ones to catch such mistakes and save both the patient and save Burns from himself, I don't think that's worth terribly many points.

Given that Frank was horrified at that almost happening, I'm not sure how it counts. And the drunks have their share of screw ups as well...I think all of them had at least one episode of not noticing a perforated bowel, for instance.

Of course, it would probably help in the unit in question actually had the full complement of surgeons, nurses, etc instead of being at roughly one-third strength. Gelbart complained about that in an interview, that a larger cast would've meant more opportunities.

[Peelee]

Given that Frank was horrified at that almost happening, I'm not sure how it counts. And the drunks have their share of screw ups as well...I think all of them had at least one episode of not noticing a perforated bowel, for instance.

Of course, it would probably help in the unit in question actually had the full complement of surgeons, nurses, etc instead of being at roughly one-third strength. Gelbart complained about that in an interview, that a larger cast would've meant more opportunities.

He was horrified, sure. He still was about to do it and waved off Trapper's initial attempts to get him to so much as look at the X-Ray to realize what he was about to do. And, while not common, that certainly wasn't out of character for Frank; he was a dangerous surgeon who bought answers to tests in med school and shouldn't have been a doctor to begin with.

Also, as to the staffing, they could have had the other nurses not be a rotating cast of extras and be actual fixtures in the camp, and kept the incredibly-poorly-named Spearchucker Jones, but I at least understand their reasoning on the latter and have no idea on the business logistics of the former.

[Sindeloke]

There was also ‘skank’, ‘tramp’ and I’m sure I forget a few, probably from Belkar.

I am also never sure how bad ‘whore’ is but it probably belongs on that list.

The rationale behind it is, alledgedly, that the comic cannot devolve into a flame war through bad language, unlike the forum.

Speaking of long-form literary projects where those involved slowly outgrow their sexism...

[Doug Lampert]

Also, where Frank mostly played the same "I am everything bad about men" tune in pretty much every episode he was in, Winchester had a more varied repertoire. I believe the first episode with Winchester ended with him playing a prank on BJ and Pierce. He certainly spent significant time being an antagonist who was no more wrong than the protagonists. Also, I don't think he ever complained about who was in charge in the OR, which was a staple of the early episodes.

I suspect CEW simply didn't care who was nominally in charge of the operating room. He was in charge of his table and patient, and that's what he wanted to work on. He was no fonder of being in the army than Hawkeye, he simply had different coping mechanisms.

[Ghosty]

Several episodes include jibes at the army's tendency to provide horrible food. One was about a chef who was sent to the front with a rifle (that made him more of a menace to his fellow soldiers than to the enemy). The main cast almost never gets KP (since they are mostly officers), but I think we do see the kitchen from time to time.

Also, despite being "mobile", they spend almost all of their time in the same spot.

Thought Klinger complained about pulling K.P. a few times. Him and Zale, who'd often end up fighting with him.

I hesitate to rewatch it because it was such a touchstone of my childhood, and I don't want to be disappointed. I suspect I'd find Hawkeye---especially later on as Alan Alda took over the show---to be completely insufferable, and a Hollywood writer's idea of what a Korean war zone was like. The book is quite good, and nowhere near as black and white as the TV show.

For what it's worth, Larry Linville, (Frank Burns) was supposed to be just the nicest person you could imagine. There was a signed photo of him I saw, long ago, in a teddy bear shop in Los Gatos, CA. I guess he was a frequent customer.

[Peelee]

Thought Klinger complained about pulling K.P. a few times. Him and Zale, who'd often end up fighting with him.

I hesitate to rewatch it because it was such a touchstone of my childhood, and I don't want to be disappointed. I suspect I'd find Hawkeye---especially later on as Alan Alda took over the show---to be completely insufferable, and a Hollywood writer's idea of what a Korean war zone was like. The book is quite good, and nowhere near as black and white as the TV show.

For what it's worth, Larry Linville, (Frank Burns) was supposed to be just the nicest person you could imagine. There was a signed photo of him I saw, long ago, in a teddy bear shop in Los Gatos, CA. I guess he was a frequent customer.

I'm going back through it now, actually, and up to season 3.its holding up pretty well still, for the most part; there's a lot more vaudeville than assault, though a few scenes are really rapey. Most notably one with a visiting physician.

[bunsen_h]

I'm going back through it now, actually, and up to season 3.its holding up pretty well still, for the most part; there's a lot more vaudeville than assault, though a few scenes are really rapey. Most notably one with a visiting physician.

The one who cries "rape" on Frank? Yeah. I'm fairly sure I found that funny at the time, as the show's creators intended.

[Peelee]

The one who cries "rape" on Frank? Yeah. I'm fairly sure I found that funny at the time, as the show's creators intended.

I was thinking of the one who manhandled Houlihan twice, in two different roles. The first didn't get past secual assault, I don't think, but the second was full-on attempted rape.

The female colonel on Frank was the wrong person getting that treatment, Hawkeye and Trapper could have had that lesson instead.

[Ghosty]

I'm going back through it now, actually, and up to season 3.its holding up pretty well still, for the most part; there's a lot more vaudeville than assault, though a few scenes are really rapey. Most notably one with a visiting physician.

Sign of the times. I really don't want to rewatch Sixteen Candles again, despite finding it side-splittingly funny as a teenager: "Dong? Where. Is. My. Automobile!" (Because any foreigner can understand English if you say it slowly and loudly enough.)

The book, and Altman's movie from it, were more surreal; the sitcom later on, more slapstick and preachy. I guess I like surrealism more than sanctimonious preaching. The episode where they go practically to the Yalu to treat patients for the North Koreans, is just eye rolling to think about. Yes, the Norks are going to appreciate your treating people; No, they're not going to let you go, .25 ACP hammerless, or whatever mousegun Frank was trying to smuggle with them, notwithstanding.

Neat segue from the Order, all the same. I hadn't thought about M*A*S*H in nearly ten years.

[Peelee]

Sign of the times. I really don't want to rewatch Sixteen Candles again, despite finding it side-splittingly funny as a teenager: "Dong? Where. Is. My. Automobile!" (Because any foreigner can understand English if you say it slowly and loudly enough.)

The book, and Altman's movie from it, were more surreal; the sitcom later on, more slapstick and preachy. I guess I like surrealism more than sanctimonious preaching. The episode where they go practically to the Yalu to treat patients for the North Koreans, is just eye rolling to think about. Yes, the Norks are going to appreciate your treating people; No, they're not going to let you go, .25 ACP hammerless, or whatever mousegun Frank was trying to smuggle with them, notwithstanding.

Neat segue from the Order, all the same. I hadn't thought about M*A*S*H in nearly ten years.

That was the Chinese, not North Koreans, and it was a wounded exchange. In other news, Henry Blake just died, and BJ came in while I was typing this.

[Rogar Demonblud]

For what it's worth, Larry Linville, (Frank Burns) was supposed to be just the nicest person you could imagine. There was a signed photo of him I saw, long ago, in a teddy bear shop in Los Gatos, CA. I guess he was a frequent customer.

Yup, he was a hoopy frood. I saw an interview years ago where Gelbert said he was still apologizing to him for what happened to the character. Apparently, behind the scenes was atrocious, especially the first couple years. After the execs drove off the original creative team, Alda basically pulled off a coup and seized control (helped by a different exec's power play getting rid of the others). Still, considering the show was intended to be a one-off to try and cash in on the movie, it holds together fairly well.

Oh, and Peelee, since you just watch Abyssinia Henry, did you know that wasn't the scripted ending? One of the aforementioned execs was mad at McLean Stevenson for some reason and had Radar's lines rewritten so he could at least kill off his character. The shock you see roll through the OR was real.

[Peelee]

Yup, he was a hoopy frood. I saw an interview years ago where Gelbert said he was still apologizing to him for what happened to the character. Apparently, behind the scenes was atrocious, especially the first couple years. After the execs drove off the original creative team, Alda basically pulled off a coup and seized control (helped by a different exec's power play getting rid of the others). Still, considering the show was intended to be a one-off to try and cash in on the movie, it holds together fairly well.

Oh, and Peelee, since you just watch Abyssinia Henry, did you know that wasn't the scripted ending? One of the aforementioned execs was mad at McLean Stevenson for some reason and had Radar's lines rewritten so he could at least kill off his character. The shock you see roll through the OR was real.

It actually was scripted! Main characters basically were almost never killed off back then, and they wanted to have a gut punch ending to make the audience feel how the MASH unit felt; extras are killed off every so often, but did they have so little screen time, the audience never developed strong feelings towards them like the MASH unit would. The main cast were even told about it and given a chance to voice their thoughts and feelings on it, IIRC, and the final scene we see is the second take. The studio execs were actually against it, but weren't able to prevent it because it was largely hidden from them.

[Ron Miel]

The main cast almost never gets KP ...

THe exception being Charles, who did it in the Christmas job swap episode.

They bugged out twice, IIRC; once under Blake and once under Potter.

And once under Frank Burns, while the Colonel was on leave. They moved to the other side of the road, just because Frank wanted to practice moving.

It actually was scripted! ... . The main cast were even told about it and given a chance to voice their thoughts and feelings on it ...

I thought that the main cast wasn't told about it, even during filming, until right before they filmed the final scene. They didn't want the actors' performances coloured by knowing the character will be killed off.

[Peelee]

THe
And once under Frank Burns, while the Colonel was on leave. They moved to the other side of the road, just because Frank wanted to practice moving.

Oh, Frank. Never change.

I thought that the main cast wasn't told about it, even during filming, until right before they filmed the final scene. They didn't want the actors' performances coloured by knowing the character will be killed off.

I'd say more "after filming the rest of the scenes" rather than "right before the final scene." And Radar even proclaimed that Blake would win an Emmy for it when they found out.

[littlebum2002]

Sign of the times. I really don't want to rewatch Sixteen Candles again, despite finding it side-splittingly funny as a teenager: "Dong? Where. Is. My. Automobile!" (Because any foreigner can understand English if you say it slowly and loudly enough.)

16 Candles and Breakfast Club, too. Both of them contain the dubious moral message that a girl has to fundamentally change everything about herself to get a boy.

I thought that the main cast wasn't told about it, even during filming, until right before they filmed the final scene. They didn't want the actors' performances coloured by knowing the character will be killed off.

This is what I heard as well. Only Gary Burghoff was told about the death, so that the reactions of the rest of the cast would be genuine.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

16 Candles and Breakfast Club, too. Both of them contain the dubious moral message that a girl has to fundamentally change everything about herself to get a boy

I've not seen either of those, but it seems to have been a common message, since that is the conclusion of Grease as well.

Grey Wolf

[Peelee]

This is what I heard as well. Only Gary Burghoff was told about the death, so that the reactions of the rest of the cast would be genuine.

Spoiler: From Larry Gelbart, the director of the episode

Show

There was no precedent for the last episode of our third season, in which the character of Colonel Henry Blake died. Naturally, CBS did not want us to “kill” the Henry Blake character, played by McLean Stevenson. They were most upset about that, and so was sentimental, dear old Twentieth Century-Fox.Killing a character in a half-hour show had never been done before. That was all the reason [producer] Gene [Reynolds] and I needed to know we would have to do it.

We resolved that instead of doing an episode in which yet another actor leaves yet another series, we would try to have Mac/Henry’s departure make a point, one that was consistent with the series’s attitude regarding the wastefulness of war; we would have that character die as a result of the conflict. After three years of showing faceless bit players and extras portraying dying or dead servicemen, here was an opportunity to have a character die that our audience knew and loved, one whose death would mean something to them.

Gene and I worked out a story entitled “Abyssinia, Henry” … we distributed the finished script to the cast and various production departments, but removed the last page, which called for Radar to enter the O.R. and read a Defense Department communiqué that informs everyone that Henry Blake, who had been discharged and was flying back to his family in the States, had gone down in the Sea of Japan. “There weren’t no survivors,” he concludes.

I kept that one last page under wraps, locking it in my desk drawer. The only cast member let in on the secret was Alan Alda, by then clearly the star of the series. We planned the production schedule for this episode so that the O.R. scene would be the last one shot. There were, in fact, two O.R. sequences in that show: one at the top of the show, in which Henry is informed by Radar that he, Henry, is going home, that he has received his discharge orders, whereupon everyone in the room breaks into raucous song; the second, of course, was the final scene in which Radar enters to read the communiqué announcing Henry’s death. After we shot the first scene, the one in which Henry gets the good news, the cast and crew, understandably, began to wrap, pulling the plug on the episode and for that matter, the whole season.

There were a great many visitors on the set: spectators, press, family, friends, easily a couple of hundred people. We asked everyone to wait a few minutes before joining us in the traditional wrap party, that we had one more piece of business to finish. I had couple of words privately with Billy Jurgensen, our cinematographer, told him what was up, and asked him to position his camera for the one additional scene. I did not want to rehearse it; we would shoot it only once. Then, Gene and I took the cast aside and I opened a manila envelope that contained the one-page last scene, telling them I had something I wanted to show them.

“I don’t want to see it!” Gary Burghoff exploded. “I know you! You’ve got pictures of dead babies in there!”

Assuring him I didn’t, I gave each [actor] a copy of the scene to read to themselves. Each had a different reaction.

“****ing brilliant,” said Larry Linville.

“You son of a bitch,” Gary said to McLean. “You’ll probably get an Emmy out of this!”

Mac, who had stayed to watch the filming of what he knew was his last M*A*S*H, was speechless. But that doesn’t begin to say it.

We returned to the set. For once I said “Action” instead of “Cut.” We began to shoot the scene. Gary was unbelievably touching as he entered the busy O.R. and read the message to all the doctors and nurses. Extras in the scene, performers who had been with series since day one, reacted with a kind of heartfelt sincerity that was stunning — their performance was based on their real surprise and lingering shock, their awareness of how much Mac meant to them. The crew, hearing of Henry’s death for the first time as the cameras were rolling, stuck to their chores; they did all one could ask of them.

Unhappily, there was some sort of technical glitch. Either the boom mike or a light or whatever could go wrong did, and we had to shoot it again. I was heartsick. Gary would never be able to do a second take as beautiful as he did the first. I still knew nothing about directing. He was better. And on the second go, a totally unexpected thing happened. After Gary finished reading his message, there was a hushed silence on the set as B.J.’s camera panned the stricken faces of the cast, and then someone off-camera accidentally let a surgical instrument drop to the floor. It was perfect, that clattering, hollow sound, filling a palpable void in a way that no words could. I could not have planned it better; I wish I had — whenever I happen to hear it again, I marvel at how perfectly it fit.

TL;DR - Last minute reveal to the cast, yes. Found out during filming for genuine reactions, no. Their genuine reactions were "that's genius!"

[littlebum2002]

TL;DR - Last minute reveal to the cast, yes. Found out during filming for genuine reactions, no. Their genuine reactions were "that's genius!"

Are you trying to tell me that I can't blindly believe every pop culture rumor I hear on the internet?

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Are you trying to tell me that I can't blindly believe every pop culture rumor I hear on the internet?

No! That can't be! Oh, the huge manatee!

Grey Wolf