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  1. - Top - End - #1
    Troll in the Playground
     
    DruidGuy

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    Default 5e Throwdowns #2: Judgement Day, aka the terminator!

    After the first contest was so successful why not keep it going and what better inspiration for a sequel?

    The Concept: The Terminator/Your hardest to kill build

    The goal here is to be as hard to kill as possible without taking a route of straight up avoidance, you want to keep walking dramatically like the iconic T series we all grew up fearing. Votes will decide which character is the toughest on the block but imaginary bonus points will be awarded to any build that isn't entirely dependent on set up (doesn't get red in the face over being surprised).




    Some rules for guidance:

    -No UA, only officially published materials

    -You must include a stat array (Point Buy or Standard Array)

    -Build to 20 with insights on how the build hands at levels 5, 11, 17 and 20 (include hp and AC at each point for each of reading)

    -Multiclassing and feat optional rules in play

    -Variants for races available (V. Human, Dragonmarks, SCAG variants)

    -No magic items unless you have a way to create them from a class feature

    -Normal starting items and gold, mundane armor upgrades be assumed to happen during tier 2 (so you can mention Plate/Half Plate in your commentary but you can only include it in snapshots for levels 11,17 and the final 20).

    -Catchy names and fluff are not a requirement but are always nice to read




    Suggested format:

    Level 20 level split:

    Race:

    Stats: Str x Dex x Con x Int x Wis x Cha x

    Background:

    Starting level:

    Any guidance or commentary you want

    At 5th level:

    Any guidance or commentary you want

    At 11th level:

    Any guidance or commentary you want

    At 17th level:

    Any guidance or commentary you want

    At 20th level and final thoughts:




    Voting:

    To sort the wheat from the chaff we'll vote on builds and declare a 'winner' (a concept that will hopefully continue in future threads and put the contest into this), to vote simply make a post quoting the build you want to vote for (snipping the content to keep things getting out of hand) and say something that indicates you're voting e.g. +1, get's my vote etc.

    -Each user only gets one vote but you can edit your post at any time before the deadline to change your mind.

    -A user can submit more than one build but they must be in separate posts (and not back to back to respect forum rules)

    -You cannot vote for yourself

    -Each throwdown thread will run for 7 days after which no new builds will be accepted for contention, the voting deadline will be 24 hours after the build deadline, votes will be tallied and the winner announced (any vote edits after the deadline has passed will also not be counted, if the original vote cannot be seen the vote will be null and void).

    Terminator build deadline: 22/05/2020 @ 7pm ET, 23/05/2020 @ 12am BST.

    Voting deadline: 23/05/2020 @ 7pm ET, 24/05/2020 @ 12am BST.



    I'm looking forward to what all the optimisers around here come up with so without further ado, let's THROWDOWN






    Previous winners:

    Throwdown #1: The Gish - Sithlordnergal's The Undying Barbarian
    Last edited by Dork_Forge; 2020-05-22 at 11:09 PM.
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  3. - Top - End - #3
    Dwarf in the Playground
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    Default Re: 5e Throwdowns #2: Judgement Day, aka the terminator!

    Oooh, I have an idea for this one. This'll be fun.

  4. - Top - End - #4
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    Amechra's Avatar

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    Default Re: 5e Throwdowns #2: Judgement Day, aka the terminator!

    I have the dumbest meme build for this. It's terrible, sure, but it's kinda hilarious.
    Quote Originally Posted by segtrfyhtfgj View Post
    door is a fake exterior wall
    If you see me try to discuss the nitty-gritty of D&D 5e, kindly point me to my signature and remind me that I shouldn't. Please and thank you!

  5. - Top - End - #5
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    PaladinGuy

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    Default Re: 5e Throwdowns #2: Judgement Day, aka the terminator!

    Hmmm, even though it wasn't what I was hoping, I'm still gonna submit this build. Its similar to my Undying Barbarian, but unlike that build this one doesn't rely on Temp HP. Even if you surprise it, its not gonna die.

    The Celestial Zealot


    Level 20 level split: Zealot Barbarian: 15 / Celestial Warlock: 5

    Race: Human

    Spoiler: Starting Stats
    Show

    Str: 13+1 / Dex: 12+1 / Con: 15+1 / Int: 9+1 / Wis: 11+1 / Cha: 13+1


    Spoiler: Level 20 stats
    Show

    Str: 18 / Dex: 14 / Con: 18 / Int: 10 / Wis: 12 / Cha: 14


    ASIs:

    -Resilient: Dexterity
    - Str +2
    - Con +2
    - Str +2

    Background: Acolyte


    Starting level: Barbarian 1-4

    You'll want to start out as a Barbarian, and take the Zealot subclass. You won't have as many resistances as a Bear Totem Barbarian, but you'll be harder to kill in the end. Take Resilient: Dexterity at level 4, that way you can have proficiency in Dex saves and a 14 Dex.


    At 5th level:

    Take one level of Barbarian, then take five levels of Warlock. That should get you to level 10 with a Barbarian 5 / Warlock 5 split. You'll want to be a Celestial Warlock, and be Pact of the Tome. Your spells won't really matter much outside of Armor of Agathys and Mirror Image. Armor of Agathys is always an amazing choice, especially if you're going to be in the front lines, and the same goes with Mirror Image. Your Invocations are the important part for this build. You'll want the following Invocations: Fiendish Vigor, Aspect of the Moon, and either Tomb of Levistus or Devil's Sight. PErsonally, since you're a Human, I'd take Devil's Sight, but both options are really good.

    That said, Aspect of the Moon and Fiendish Vigor are absolute musts for this build. Fiendish Vigor gives you a nice little buffer of Temp HP, just in case someone surprises you. While Aspect of the Moon makes it so you never have to sleep, and you can't be put to sleep by any means. So you can just continue to walk towards your target, never stopping, never sleeping. If your DM lets you take a Short Rest while you walk, you could technically take a Long Rest as you walk thanks to Aspect of the Moon.


    At 11th level:

    From here on out, you're going pure Barbarian. Your end goal is Barbarian 15, because of Persistent Rage.

    At 17th level:

    Keep going as a Barbarian, you nearly have it.

    At 20th level and final thoughts:

    At levels 19 and 20 you gain two very special, and very important, features. The first is Rage Beyond Death, from the Zealot subclass. You no longer fall unconscious when your HP reaches 0, and you no longer die due to death save fails while Raging. At level 20, you gain Persistent Rage, which makes it so your Rage won't end early unless you choose to end it or you fall unconscious. These two abilities make it so you can't be killed by conventional means.

    Usually the way to beat a build like this is the Sleep spell, but thanks to Aspect of the Moon you're immune to it. You also have proficiency in Dex saves, which will help you avoid spells like Disintegrate. And to top it off, the Celestial Warlock grants you a small amount of Bonus Action healing. That way, if you're somehow knocked to 0 HP and your Rage is about to end, you can heal yourself and reset your death fails before you fall. Then you can go into a Rage again on your next turn and keep on fighting. It won't matter how much is thrown at you, you'll keep charging forward.

    As for being surprised, you have plenty of HP to deal with a surprise attack, 215 HP with 8 Temp HP from Fiendish Vigor to be exact.. And even if you get surprised, you have advantage on initative, and can act while surprised thanks to your Barbarian levels.To add in a bit of horror to this build, if you need to track someone down, this build is perfect. Because if they're alive, then they need to sleep...This build does not. They will peruse their quarry, never stopping, never sleeping, resting on the road as they keep marching steadily towards their target.
    Last edited by sithlordnergal; 2020-05-17 at 01:53 AM.
    Never let the fluff of a class define the personality of a character. Let Clerics be Atheist, let Barbarians be cowardly or calm, let Druids hate nature, and let Wizards know nothing about the arcane

    Fun Fact: A monk in armor loses Martial Arts, Unarmored Defense, and Unarmored Movement, but keep all of their other abilities, including subclass features, and Stunning Strike works with melee weapon attacks. Make a Monk in Fullplate with a Greatsword >=D


  6. - Top - End - #6
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    Kane0's Avatar

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    Default Re: 5e Throwdowns #2: Judgement Day, aka the terminator!

    Bit of a baseline to get everyone started:

    No Frills
    Mountain Dwarf Abjurer Wizard 20

    Background: something from Ravnica for the extra spells, like Boros for access to Aid and Death Ward.

    Str 10, Dex 13 (14), Con 16 (18), Int 15 (20), Wis 12, Cha 10

    Survivorship credentials:
    - Light & Medium armor proficiency
    - Poison resistance
    - Arcane Ward
    - Improved Abjuration
    - Spell Resistance
    - Spell Mastery (Shield and Invisibility)
    - Signature Spells (Counterspell and Haste)

    ASI choices (order in your preference):
    Resilient (Con)
    Dwarven Fortitude
    +1 Dex
    +5 Int

    Optionally drop INT increases for Tough, Durable, Lucky, Warcaster and/or Magic Initiate (Resistance/Bless or Sanctuary) based on preference.

    Spells of note:
    Cantrips: Blade Ward, Move Earth
    1st: Alarm, Absorb Elements, Expeditious Retreat, False Life, Feather Fall, Find Familiar, Fog Cloud, Longstrider, Mage Armor, Protection from Good/Evil, Shield
    2nd: Blur, Darkness, Enlarge/Reduce, Invisibility, Levitate, Mirror Image, Misty Step, Rope Trick, Warding Wind
    3rd: Blink, Counterspell, Dispel Magic, Feign Death, Fly, Gaseous Form, Glyph of Warding, Tiny Hut, Haste, Nondetection, Thunder Step, Wall of Sand, Wall of Water
    4th: Dimension Door, Fire Shield, Greater Invisibility, Faithful Hound, Private Sanctum, Resilient Sphere, Polymorph, Stoneskin
    5th: Bigby's Hand, Far Step, Passwall, Wall of Force, Wall of Stone
    6th: Arcane Gate, Contingency, Globe of Invulnerability, Guards and Wards, Magic Jar, Tenser's Transformation
    7th: Etherealness, Forcecage, Magnificent Mansion, Plane Shift, Simulacrum, Symbol, Teleport
    8th: Clone, Demiplane, Mighty Fortress
    9th: Foresight, Invulnerability, Shapechange, True Polymorph

    It's very simple. Level 1 is spent being as Dwarfy as possible hunkering down in whatever armor you can get your hands on (or mage armor otherwise). Move Earth is useful for making impromptu cover if you don't want to burn a spell slot on a protective spell. Then as soon as level 2 comes along you use, abuse and reuse Arcane Ward supplemented by whatever spells you want to layer on top, ranging from Shield and Blur all the way to Foresight or Invulnerability.
    Dodging and Blade Ward are free and Arcane Ward can be recharged when you use Shield, Absorb Elements or Counterspell. Walk dramatically at whatever speed you want to expend slots to get, and when you're done walking around you're still a fully operational battle station wizard. Even if you choose not to bump your INT up to max you have plenty of spells that don't need it like Haste, Magic Missile, Forcecage, etc.

    And of course if you do happen to die at later levels, with things like Clone and Simulacrum chances are it’s not a big deal anyways.
    Last edited by Kane0; 2020-05-22 at 06:44 AM.

  7. - Top - End - #7
    Barbarian in the Playground
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    Default Re: 5e Throwdowns #2: Judgement Day, aka the terminator!

    I have to imagine some freakish combination of Paladin/Barbarian is gonna pop up given that would be the path of best Saves and best HP.
    Does the Rogue 'Uncanny Dodge' ability count as 'avoidance'?
    Last edited by SociopathFriend; 2020-05-16 at 12:49 AM.
    It's time for a preemptive retaliatory strike.

    Original online work - I've Been Reborn as a Dungeon Monster?
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  8. - Top - End - #8
    Troll in the Playground
     
    DruidGuy

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    Default Re: 5e Throwdowns #2: Judgement Day, aka the terminator!

    Quote Originally Posted by SociopathFriend View Post
    I have to imagine some freakish combination of Paladin/Barbarian is gonna pop up given that would be the path of best Saves and best HP.
    Does the Rogue 'Uncanny Dodge' ability count as 'avoidance'?
    No, that's damage reduction, by avoidance I mean hanging at the back or otherwise staying out of danger. The aim of this context is to be heading into danger/the enemy and being able to take whatever is thrown at you, how you handle that (high AC, high hp, damage reduction etc.) is what the building part is all about.
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  9. - Top - End - #9
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    Amechra's Avatar

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    Default Re: 5e Throwdowns #2: Judgement Day, aka the terminator!

    Proper Dwarven Martial Arts

    Level 20 level split:
    Monk (Way of the Long Death) 20

    Race:
    Mountain Dwarf, choosing Mason's Tools as our racial tool proficiency.

    Starting Ability Scores:
    Str 16 / Dex 12 / Con 17 / Int 10 / Wis 13 / Cha 8

    Ability Score Increases:
    4th: Dwarven Fortitude. Constitution 17→18
    8th: +2 Strength. Strength 16 → 18
    12th: Heavily Armored. Strength 18 → 19
    16th: +1 Strength and +1 Wisdom. Strength 19 → 20, Wisdom 13 → 14
    19th: +2 Constitution. Constitution 18 → 20

    Background:
    Guild Merchant

    Starting level: Monk 1. AC 12, 11 HP. Saves: Str +5, Dex +3, Con +3, Int +0, Wis +1, Cha -1
    OK, so you might be staring at this and wondering what the heck I'm planning. And, honestly, I don't blame you - this is a really squishy start for a supposedly tough build. Oh, don't worry, we'll toughen right up. Our first order of business? Get our hands on some medium armor and a battleaxe - our parents might have sent us to Pansy Elf School to learn how to Monk, but we're a proper dwarf and need the soft, loving embrace of solid iron to truly feel safe. A simple Chain Shirt is an effective +2 to our AC, and all it costs us is our future mobility and all of our first-level features! Man, this is going to go swimmingly.

    At 5th level: Monk 5. AC 15, 46 HP. Saves: Str +6, Dex +4, Con +4, Int +0, Wis +1, Cha -1
    Our AC is a bit in flux at this point - I'm assuming that we at least have a suit of Scale Mail to our name, since that stuff is pretty cheap. On the other hand... we're the most HP-rich Monk around, which has to count for something, right? But the real fun is what we've gotten over the last three levels:
    • At 2nd level, we picked up Patient Defense, which lets us Dodge as a bonus action for 1 Ki. This lets us pretend our AC is higher than it actually is.
    • At 3rd level, we become a Monk of the Long Death. Whenever we kill someone in melee, we get 1+Monk Level temporary hit-points, which is actually pretty alright. We also have Deflect Missiles, which means that we don't have to care at all about mundane ranged attacks.
    • At 4th level, we spent our ASI on Dwarven Resilience. If you're unfamiliar with this feat, this lets us spend an HD whenever we Dodge. I think you can tell where we're going here.

    Basically, we can spend 1 Ki as a bonus action to give everyone disadvantage on their attack rolls against us, give ourselves advantage on Dexterity saves, and potentially regain 1d8+4 HP. Sure, we might not be the best at hurting people... but we're going to be annoyingly hard to kill. Oh, right, we have Extra Attack too, and this thing called "Stunning Strike"? Eh, it seems kinda useless - who's going to fail a DC 12 Constitution save?

    At 11th level: Monk 11. AC 16, 97 HP. Saves: Str +8, Dex +5, Con +4, Int +0, Wis +1, Cha -1
    OK, now we've reached the bit that's utterly hilarious. We have achieved Mastery of Death, and are now really hard to kill. It's simple, really - whenever we drop to 0 HP, we can spend 1 Ki to drop to 1 HP instead. There's no action involved, and no other limits on how we can use this ability. Essentially, as long as we have Ki in the tank, we can't die from damage that doesn't drop us to -97 HP or below in one shot. And, combined with our annoying dodge-y healing... yeah. Have fun dropping this guy. We also have this ability that inflicts Frightened - the DC is only 13, though, so it's hardly worth the effort.

    At 17th level: Monk 17. AC 18, 148 HP. Saves: Str +11, Dex +7, Con +10, Int +6, Wis +8, Cha +5
    One of the funny things about high-level Monks are their absurd saves. Diamond Soul (which comes online at 14th level) gives us proficiency in every saving throw (including, funnily enough, death saves), and lets us reroll a failed save for 1 Ki. Again, this doesn't take us an action or anything, so we essentially have advantage on any saving throw whenever we need it. On top of that, we picked up Heavily Armored (because why not?), and are now decked out in Full Plate (because why not?). Our higher max HP makes us even harder to defeat through raw damage (I can't think of anything off the top of my head that can reliably deal 149+ damage in lump sum). It feels like we've come a long way from our weak original form - truly, this is the glory of dwarven martial arts!

    Oh, right, and our save DC is now DC 16. I guess we could use Stunning Strike, our fear aura (Hour of Reaping), and our massive damage booster (Touch of the Long Death) if we really had to... but we're here for defense, not offense.

    At 20th level and final thoughts: Monk 20. AC 18, 193.5 HP. Saves: Str +11, Dex +7, Con +11, Int +6, Wis +8, Cha +5
    A Monk with almost 200 HP is pretty weird, I'll be honest. But hey, look at those fantastic saves! And that pretty-decent AC! And that-

    OK, yeah, I'll come clean: this guy is kinda miserable, in a way that only armored Monks can be. While our defenses are mighty indeed, our offense really isn't. Sweet merciful Morradin our offense is awful. Since we're wearing armor, we lose out on Martial Arts and Unarmored Movement. That means that, among other things, our Attack action is two attacks dealing 1d10+Str damage, and pretty much nothing else. A bonus action to swat at someone twice for 1+Str damage each time is terrible, and we can hardly use our cool offensive features that call for a save because our DC is terrible.

    However, this competition wasn't about making someone who can dish out damage - it was about making someone who can take it. If this build could get one magic item, it would be a Periapt of Wound Closure. It single-handedly would move this build's dodge-healing from "annoying" (5-12 HP) to "frustrating to chew through" (10-24 HP). And it's only uncommon!

    ...

    Yeah. It's a meme build. What can I say?

    EDIT: And then I read kane0's build, which also uses Dwarven Fortitude. I think I wear it better, though.
    Last edited by Amechra; 2020-05-16 at 02:03 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by segtrfyhtfgj View Post
    door is a fake exterior wall
    If you see me try to discuss the nitty-gritty of D&D 5e, kindly point me to my signature and remind me that I shouldn't. Please and thank you!

  10. - Top - End - #10
    Pixie in the Playground
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    Default Re: 5e Throwdowns #2: Judgement Day, aka the terminator!

    Now that we have a Way of the Long Death Monk in armor, I'd like to post a Way of the Long Death Monk played straight.

    Dwarven Funerary Savant

    Level 20 level split: Way of the Long Death Monk 20

    Race: Hill Dwarf, for boosting relevant Abilities and the extra +1 HP/level.

    Stats: Str 8 Dex 15 Con 15 (+2) Int 8 Wis 15 (+1) Cha 8, you're a savant, you're not particularly strong, social nor well-read, but that's fine, your job is to record deaths, not be one of those porters, an orator nor a sage.

    Background: Anything that'll give History proficiency would be thematic, but it doesn't particularly matter in the long run.

    Starting level: Monk 1 - 12 HP, 15 AC, +1/+4/+3/-1/+3/-1 saves

    You're a reasonably hardy character, but only have the standard dwarf mobility at this point. You can get 2 attacks at this point, though, at 1d8+1d4+4 damage if both hit.

    UA bonus: If your situation allows the alternate Monk weapons from the Class Feature Variants UA article, you can grab a battleaxe or warhammer instead of a quarterstaff or spear, for more dwarfy flavor. It's not that big of a deal, though.

    At 5th level: Way of the Long Death Monk 5 - 53 HP, 16 AC, +2/+6/+4/-1/+3/-1 saves

    At 2nd level, what's more intimidating than being on the receiving end of a slow walk? A slow walk that's a lot more faster than it looks, personally. You also get your basic Ki features, which are good.
    At 3rd level, you get Touch of Death, which gives you 6 temp HP at this point if you finish off a thing.
    At 4th level, you even off your Dex and Con, putting them at 16 and 18 respectively. You now have an effective HP/level of d8+5.
    At 5th level, you get to punch twice normally as an action, also your punches are d6 instead of d4. You also get Stunning Strike, which only has a DC of 14, which is mildly unfortunate.

    At 11th level: Way of the Long Death Monk 11 - 113 HP, 17 AC, +3/+8/+4/-1/+3/-1 saves

    At 6th level, your punches are now magic! You also get an at-will Frighten that's not friendly-fireproof. If you have a friendly Paladin by 10th level, I can see this getting some use.
    At 7th level, you are now particularly more dodgy, with Evasion. You also get to clear Charm and Frightened effects as an action, but the action cost is kind of screwy.
    At 8th level, bump your Dex to +4. As a dwarf, your Dex mod is notably 1 slower than most other Monks, so you'd need at least 12 levels of Monk to max it, as opposed to 8.
    At 9th level, you now ignore moats and castle walls, all the more to pursue your target. Stunning Strike DC is now 15.
    At 10th level, you are now entirely immune to poison. You already were resistant to poison damage and had advantage against saves against poison previously though, so it's not as big of a deal if you weren't a dwarf.
    At 11th level, your punches are now d8s, letting you ignore quarterstaffs entirely. You also get to say "No." to dying at most 11 times a short rest.

    At 17th level: Way of the Long Death Monk 17 - 173 HP, 19 AC, +5/+11/+10/+5/+10/+5 saves

    At 12th level, your ASI can be used to bump either Dex or Wis, depending if you're wanting to focus on punching harder or locking down targets respectively. Either way, your AC goes up by 1. Stunning Strike DC is now 16 if you bumped Wis.
    At 13th level, you now get subtitles. Additionally, Stunning Strike DC is now 17 if you've bumped Wis last level, or 16 if you didn't.
    At 14th level, you are now proficient in all saving throws, with at least +8 in the big three of Dex, Con and Wis. You also get to reroll failed saves for 1 Ki, without needing anything action economy-wise.
    At 15th level, you get a fluffy ribbon.
    At 16th level, you bump the other stat that you didn't bump at 12th. Your AC is now 19.
    At 17th level, your punches are now d10, and you've transcended all mortal monk weapons, accounting for Kenseis. You also get to attempt to burn down a single target with a save or damage thing, which I feel isn't all that economic. Your Stunning Strike DC is now 18.

    At 20th level and final thoughts: Way of the Long Death Monk 20 - 203 HP, 20 AC, +5/+11/+10/+5/+11/+5 saves
    At 18th level, your survivability gets a large bump, with Empty Body granting resistance to everything but force damage. You're also invisible, so your attacks get advantage, if the thing you're attacking doesn't have Truesight or similar.
    At 19th level, you bump your Wisdom to 20, getting your AC to 20, and your Stunning Strike DC to 19.
    At 20th level, you get to do 3d10+15 damage on tap, with 4d10+20 if you spend one of your Ki points. On the defensive side, you have at least +10 on the strong saves, and +5 on the weak ones, 203 HP, 20 AC, Evasion, 25 temp HP every time you reduce something to 0 HP, the ability to spend Ki to say "No." to dying and the ability to get resistance to everything but force damage, and astounding mobility at 55 ft. walk speed and the ability to run across water and up walls.
    Last edited by Alpharn_999; 2020-05-16 at 03:51 AM.

  11. - Top - End - #11
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    Amechra's Avatar

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    Default Re: 5e Throwdowns #2: Judgement Day, aka the terminator!

    I am not remotely surprised that my gimmicky build that pulls all kinds of dumb contorted garbage is less effective than one that's actually played straight :p.

    I might have to submit an actual attempt at some point. It probably won't be a dwarf, because the builds have been blandly similar so far.
    Last edited by Amechra; 2020-05-16 at 03:26 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by segtrfyhtfgj View Post
    door is a fake exterior wall
    If you see me try to discuss the nitty-gritty of D&D 5e, kindly point me to my signature and remind me that I shouldn't. Please and thank you!

  12. - Top - End - #12
    Pixie in the Playground
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    Default Re: 5e Throwdowns #2: Judgement Day, aka the terminator!

    And now for something original.

    "I'm still standing!"

    Level 20 level split: Ancients Paladin 19/Shadow Sorcerer 1

    Race: Half-Orc

    Stats: Str 14(+2) Dex 10 Con 14(+1) Int 10 Wis 10 Cha 14

    Background: Doesn't really matter for this.

    Starting level: Paladin 1 - 12 HP, 18 AC, +3/0/+2/0/+2/+4 saves

    Your 1st level is in Paladin for the heavy armor proficiency. Half-orc is chosen for Relentless Endurance.

    At 5th level: Oath of the Ancients Paladin 5 - 49 HP, 19 AC, +3/0/+6/0/+3/+5 saves

    You go Ancients Paladin 5 ASAP to get Extra Attack.
    At 2nd level, you pick the Defense Fighting Style, to maximize defense.
    At 3rd level, you go for the Oath of the Ancients, for Aura of Warding and Undying Sentinel.
    At 4th level, you take Resilient (Con), to even out the odd Con and to get proficiency in Con saves.
    At 5th level, you get Extra Attack and 2nd level Paladin spells.

    At 11th level: Oath of the Ancients Paladin 10/Shadow Sorcerer 1 - 101 HP, 21 AC, +5/+2/+9/+2/+6/+8 saves

    You'd want to get Aura of Warding first, before dipping into Shadow Sorcerer.
    At 6th level, you get Aura of Protection, improving your saving throws.
    At 7th level, you get Aura of Warding, improving your durability against spellcasters.
    At 8th level, you take your Sorcerer level, granting you Strength of the Grave, allowing you to potentially stay standing at 1 HP after being reduced to 0 HP twice a day, as well as possibly Booming Blade, Shield and Absorb Elements.
    At 9th level, you get War Caster, letting you cast Shield and Absorb Elements while both hands are occupied.
    At 10th level, you get 3rd level Paladin spells.
    At 11th level, you get Aura of Courage.

    At 17th level: Oath of the Ancients Paladin 16/Shadow Sorcerer 1 - 155 HP, 21 AC, +7/+4/+13/+4/+10/+14

    At 12th level, you get Improved Divine Smite, improving at-will damage.
    At 13th level, you get +2 Cha, to improve your saving throws.
    At 14th level, you get 4th level Paladin spells, notably Death Ward, allowing you to stay standing at 1 HP after being reduced to 0 HP thrice a day.
    At 15th level, you get Cleansing Touch, allowing you to clear debuff and control effects if they do not incapacitate you. You also get a 2nd 4th level spell slot, letting you cast Death Ward twice a day.
    At 16th level, you get Undying Sentinel, allowing you to stay at 1 HP after being reduced to 0 HP 5 times a day, including Death Ward.
    At 17th level, you'd want +2 Cha, to improve your saving throws. You also can get up to 4 Death Wards a day.

    At 20th level and final thoughts: Oath of the Ancients Paladin 19/Shadow Sorcerer 1 - 182 HP, 21 AC, +8/+5/+14/+5/+11/+16

    At 18th level, you get 5th level Paladin spells.
    At 19th level, you get larger Auras.
    At 20th level, you bump your Charisma to 20, improving your saving throws. At this point, you deal 2d8+3 per swing, and 2 swings per Attack action. Defensively, you have 21 AC, the ability to bump it up to 26 on a reaction, 182 HP, +5 to all standard saving throws, 2 unconditional "stay at 1 HP if reduced to 0" things, 1 "stay at 1 HP if reduced to 0" thing that is conditional and gated behind Cha saves, of which you have +16 for, and potentially 5 Death Wards per day if you spend all of your spell slots for it.

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    Default Re: 5e Throwdowns #2: Judgement Day, aka the terminator!

    Personally I am not a fan of Dwarven Fortitude with Long Death Monks.

    Basically, you set yourself back 2 Dex ASIs, which is a big deal defensively for Monks, and an even bigger deal for Long Death Monks in particular.

    Long Death features scale better with basically every defensive tool other than max hit points. For example, every point of AC will make every point of Death Mastery ki last longer while you're at 0 hit points. And will extend the value of each temporary hit point you generate. And it'll play very effectively off of your ability to give enemies Disadvantage (basically, Disadvantage scales in a very attractive non-linear fashion with higher AC; lowering your AC basically torpedoes your gains from Dodge). By contrast, some extra Max HP isn't really doing any more for you than it does for anyone else (or less, since the dwarf's AC will suck).

    Also it diminishes your active defenses; just doing more damage with higher Dex will help you generate more temporary hit points, and reduce enemy offense (by stunning them more, or killing them sooner). And the extra movement speed will help you position better for Hour of Reaping (especially important since you need to avoid friendly fire when doing it).
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    Default Re: 5e Throwdowns #2: Judgement Day, aka the terminator!

    Literally Just the Terminator

    Level 20 level split: Samurai fighter 8 / Ancients paladin 8 / War wizard 2 / Hexblade warlock 2

    Race: Warforged (ERftLW version. Can we use the WGtE version, or is that cheating?)

    Although it's often overlooked in favor of strictly mechanical bonuses, not requiring air, food, drink, or sleep is hugely thematic for a terminator-style character. They literally. Never. Stop. Every moment you spend eating or sleeping, he is getting closer. You can't bury him, he will eventually dig his way out. He can walk across the ocean floor to reach you, if he has to. Nothing short of actually killing him will stop him.

    The AC bump and poison resistance also don't hurt.


    Stats: (BTW, are multiclass stat requirements being enforced? I'd use a different stat array if they weren't.)

    Str 15
    Dex 8
    Con 14 (12+2)
    Int 13
    Wis 8
    Cha 16 (15+1)

    Background: Any

    Starting level: Fighter 1
    [HP 12, AC 20, Saves +4/-1/+4/+1/-1/+3]

    We get a free skill and tool from warforged, so between everything we should be proficient in Acrobatics, Athletics, Intimidation, Perception, and Survival. These skills will help us track, find, and reach our target. For tools, thieves' tools allows us to bypass obstacles that would slow us down, such as traps or locks, mason's tools let us deal more damage to brick walls to create our own doors, and carpenter's tools allow us to fortify a position in the event we need to go on the defense.

    From fighter, we can pick up the Defense style straight away. With chain mail and a shield, the Defense style, and the warforged bump, we're sitting at 20 AC right from 1st level. Not bad!


    At 5th level: Fighter 1 / paladin 2 / War wizard 2
    [HP 40, AC 21/28, Saves +5/-1/+5/+1/-1/+3, +9/+3/+9/+5/+3/+7 with Arcane Deflection]

    Paladin gives us some healing abilities, as well as access to Bless and Shield of Faith, depending on if we'd rather boost saves or AC. War wizard gives us the Shield spell and Arcane Deflection. We can also grab Mold Earth, Shape Water, and Booming Blade as our cantrips. Those first two have excellent utility, both for defense and for bypassing certain types of obstacles.

    At this point, we hopefully have splint armor, boosting our AC to 21. We can boost our AC by +2 at-will with Arcane Deflection, or by +5 with Shield. Shield of Faith can add another +2, allowing us to reach 28 AC with the right spells.


    At 11th level: Fighter 1 / Ancients paladin 7 / War wizard 2 / Hexblade warlock 1
    [HP 87, AC 22/29, Saves +10/+3/+10/+5/+3/+8, +14/+7/+14/+9/+7/+12 with Arcane Deflection]

    Now it's starting to come together. Ancients paladin 7 gives us both our defensive auras, adding our CHA mod to all our saves and giving resistance to all spell damage. Hexblade allows us to use CHA for our weapon attacks, and lets us pick up Eldritch Blast for a ranged option. We also get an ASI, which we will use to boost CHA to 18.

    We should also have plate by now, giving us 22 AC, or 29 with the right spells.


    At 17th level: Samurai fighter 7 / Ancients paladin 7 / War wizard 2 / Hexblade warlock 1
    [HP 135, AC 22/29, Saves +13/+10/+13/+6/+10/+10, +17/+14/+17/+10/+14/+14 with Arcane Deflection]

    Samurai fighter 7 gives us proficiency with Wisdom saves. With two more ASIs, we'll boost CHA to 20 and pick up Resilient (DEX). We are now proficient with all strong saves.

    At 20th level and final thoughts: Samurai fighter 8 / Ancients paladin 8 / War wizard 2 / Hexblade warlock 2
    [HP 158, AC 22/29, Saves +13/+10/+13/+6/+10/+10, +17/+14/+17/+10/+14/+14 with Arcane Deflection]

    Not much changes here, except that we get two invocations, probably Agonizing Blast and Devil's Sight, as well as two more ASIs. I'd probably say Alert and Lucky would be the best picks. In the event that we fail a critical save, we can reroll it with Lucky. Same for enemy attacks, though as long as we have HP left those aren't usually as troublesome as a failed save.

    This is pretty close to the highest AC you can get without magic items. The highest would be a fighter 1 / cleric 1 / War wizard 18 concentrating on Shield of Faith while spamming at-will Shield. It's not that much better, though, so I made saving throws the bigger concern. The best saves would come from paladin 6 / monk 14, but that only comes online at 20th level and those two classes conflict so much. I think this is a good middle ground, with both good AC and good saves that comes online earlier (by 5th level, even).

    If magic items were permitted, I would of course pick up plate +3, a shield +3, the Staff of Power, the Robe of the Archmage, and the Cloak of Invisibility. This would boost our AC up to 30, or 37 with the right spells. We'd also get a further +2 to all our saves and advantage on saves versus magic. While invisible, all attacks against us would be at disadvantage, and most spells couldn't target us. Ah well, I understand why magic items had to be excluded.

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    Default Re: 5e Throwdowns #2: Judgement Day, aka the terminator!

    Quote Originally Posted by SociopathFriend View Post
    I have to imagine some freakish combination of Paladin/Barbarian is gonna pop up given that would be the path of best Saves and best HP.
    Does the Rogue 'Uncanny Dodge' ability count as 'avoidance'?
    I'll be honest, we're a few builds in and I'm surprised there has been neither Rogue nor Barbarian yet.
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    Default Re: 5e Throwdowns #2: Judgement Day, aka the terminator!

    Quote Originally Posted by LudicSavant View Post
    Personally I am not a fan of Dwarven Fortitude with Long Death Monks.
    I agree with you!

    I mean, I also slapped it onto a Strength-based armor-wearing Monk. My entry is nothing if not a collection of poor build decisions, which become abundantly obvious when you look at the very next build.
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    Default Re: 5e Throwdowns #2: Judgement Day, aka the terminator!

    Quote Originally Posted by LudicSavant View Post
    Personally I am not a fan of Dwarven Fortitude with Long Death Monks.
    Snipped for length
    .
    It sounds like you might be conflating Dwarf with using armor for some of your points and the point of Dwarven Fortitude isn't more max HP (though a nice side effect), it's to make your bonus action dodge more powerful by combining disadvantage on incoming attacks with healing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Greywander View Post
    Literally Just the Terminator

    Race: Warforged (ERftLW version. Can we use the WGtE version, or is that cheating?)

    Stats: (BTW, are multiclass stat requirements being enforced? I'd use a different stat array if they weren't.)
    They're the same thing, Wayfinder's was updated to remove the broken playtest version with the final version.

    Yes the reqs are in force.

    I like you went for a Warforged for the theme!

    Quote Originally Posted by Kane0 View Post
    I'll be honest, we're a few builds in and I'm surprised there has been neither Rogue nor Barbarian yet.
    I'm hoping for some Goliaths!
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    Default Re: 5e Throwdowns #2: Judgement Day, aka the terminator!

    Quote Originally Posted by Dork_Forge View Post
    It sounds like you might be conflating Dwarf with using armor for some of your points
    I am not talking about Dwarves using armor at all, I'm not sure how you got that impression.

    and the point of Dwarven Fortitude isn't more max HP (though a nice side effect), it's to make your bonus action dodge more powerful by combining disadvantage on incoming attacks with healing.
    Right, and it's not actually super good at doing that, for reasons above. What you gain from Dwarven Fortitude is offset by what you lose in other factors like AC (which happens to synergize exceptionally well with Dodge, as well as with various Long Death features).

    You can spend hit dice to heal HP when you Dodge (giving you more hp for that fight, if not the adventuring day overall) but will be taking more damage in exchange. Does that make sense?
    Last edited by LudicSavant; 2020-05-16 at 11:32 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by ProsecutorGodot
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    Default Re: 5e Throwdowns #2: Judgement Day, aka the terminator!

    Quote Originally Posted by Amechra View Post
    Proper Dwarven Martial Arts

    Level 20 level split:
    Monk (Way of the Long Death) 20

    Race:
    Mountain Dwarf, choosing Mason's Tools as our racial tool proficiency.

    Starting Ability Scores:
    Str 16 / Dex 12 / Con 17 / Int 10 / Wis 13 / Cha 8

    Ability Score Increases:
    4th: Dwarven Fortitude. Constitution 17→18
    8th: +2 Strength. Strength 16 → 18
    12th: Heavily Armored. Strength 18 → 19
    16th: +1 Strength and +1 Wisdom. Strength 19 → 20, Wisdom 13 → 14
    19th: +2 Constitution. Constitution 18 → 20

    Background:
    Guild Merchant

    Starting level: Monk 1. AC 12, 11 HP. Saves: Str +5, Dex +3, Con +3, Int +0, Wis +1, Cha -1
    OK, so you might be staring at this and wondering what the heck I'm planning. And, honestly, I don't blame you - this is a really squishy start for a supposedly tough build. Oh, don't worry, we'll toughen right up. Our first order of business? Get our hands on some medium armor and a battleaxe - our parents might have sent us to Pansy Elf School to learn how to Monk, but we're a proper dwarf and need the soft, loving embrace of solid iron to truly feel safe. A simple Chain Shirt is an effective +2 to our AC, and all it costs us is our future mobility and all of our first-level features! Man, this is going to go swimmingly.

    At 5th level: Monk 5. AC 15, 46 HP. Saves: Str +6, Dex +4, Con +4, Int +0, Wis +1, Cha -1
    Our AC is a bit in flux at this point - I'm assuming that we at least have a suit of Scale Mail to our name, since that stuff is pretty cheap. On the other hand... we're the most HP-rich Monk around, which has to count for something, right? But the real fun is what we've gotten over the last three levels:
    • At 2nd level, we picked up Patient Defense, which lets us Dodge as a bonus action for 1 Ki. This lets us pretend our AC is higher than it actually is.
    • At 3rd level, we become a Monk of the Long Death. Whenever we kill someone in melee, we get 1+Monk Level temporary hit-points, which is actually pretty alright. We also have Deflect Missiles, which means that we don't have to care at all about mundane ranged attacks.
    • At 4th level, we spent our ASI on Dwarven Resilience. If you're unfamiliar with this feat, this lets us spend an HD whenever we Dodge. I think you can tell where we're going here.

    Basically, we can spend 1 Ki as a bonus action to give everyone disadvantage on their attack rolls against us, give ourselves advantage on Dexterity saves, and potentially regain 1d8+4 HP. Sure, we might not be the best at hurting people... but we're going to be annoyingly hard to kill. Oh, right, we have Extra Attack too, and this thing called "Stunning Strike"? Eh, it seems kinda useless - who's going to fail a DC 12 Constitution save?

    At 11th level: Monk 11. AC 16, 97 HP. Saves: Str +8, Dex +5, Con +4, Int +0, Wis +1, Cha -1
    OK, now we've reached the bit that's utterly hilarious. We have achieved Mastery of Death, and are now really hard to kill. It's simple, really - whenever we drop to 0 HP, we can spend 1 Ki to drop to 1 HP instead. There's no action involved, and no other limits on how we can use this ability. Essentially, as long as we have Ki in the tank, we can't die from damage that doesn't drop us to -97 HP or below in one shot. And, combined with our annoying dodge-y healing... yeah. Have fun dropping this guy. We also have this ability that inflicts Frightened - the DC is only 13, though, so it's hardly worth the effort.

    At 17th level: Monk 17. AC 18, 148 HP. Saves: Str +11, Dex +7, Con +10, Int +6, Wis +8, Cha +5
    One of the funny things about high-level Monks are their absurd saves. Diamond Soul (which comes online at 14th level) gives us proficiency in every saving throw (including, funnily enough, death saves), and lets us reroll a failed save for 1 Ki. Again, this doesn't take us an action or anything, so we essentially have advantage on any saving throw whenever we need it. On top of that, we picked up Heavily Armored (because why not?), and are now decked out in Full Plate (because why not?). Our higher max HP makes us even harder to defeat through raw damage (I can't think of anything off the top of my head that can reliably deal 149+ damage in lump sum). It feels like we've come a long way from our weak original form - truly, this is the glory of dwarven martial arts!

    Oh, right, and our save DC is now DC 16. I guess we could use Stunning Strike, our fear aura (Hour of Reaping), and our massive damage booster (Touch of the Long Death) if we really had to... but we're here for defense, not offense.

    At 20th level and final thoughts: Monk 20. AC 18, 193.5 HP. Saves: Str +11, Dex +7, Con +11, Int +6, Wis +8, Cha +5
    A Monk with almost 200 HP is pretty weird, I'll be honest. But hey, look at those fantastic saves! And that pretty-decent AC! And that-

    OK, yeah, I'll come clean: this guy is kinda miserable, in a way that only armored Monks can be. While our defenses are mighty indeed, our offense really isn't. Sweet merciful Morradin our offense is awful. Since we're wearing armor, we lose out on Martial Arts and Unarmored Movement. That means that, among other things, our Attack action is two attacks dealing 1d10+Str damage, and pretty much nothing else. A bonus action to swat at someone twice for 1+Str damage each time is terrible, and we can hardly use our cool offensive features that call for a save because our DC is terrible.

    However, this competition wasn't about making someone who can dish out damage - it was about making someone who can take it. If this build could get one magic item, it would be a Periapt of Wound Closure. It single-handedly would move this build's dodge-healing from "annoying" (5-12 HP) to "frustrating to chew through" (10-24 HP). And it's only uncommon!

    ...

    Yeah. It's a meme build. What can I say?

    EDIT: And then I read kane0's build, which also uses Dwarven Fortitude. I think I wear it better, though.
    I liked your writing style! The level one paragraph had me laughing. Why use strength though? You can ignore movement speed penalties from armour because Dwarf. Without strength you could have more wisdom which would give a better save and some kind of offense
    I might attack your points aggressively: nothing personal. If I call out a fallacy in your argumentation, it doesn't mean I think you are arguing in bad faith. I invite you to call out if I somehow fail to live by the Twelve Virtues of Rationality.

    My favourite D&D session had 3 dice rolls. I'm currently curious to any system that has a higher amount of choices in and out of combat than 5e from the beginning of the game; especially for non-spellcasters. Please PM any recommendations.

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    Default Re: 5e Throwdowns #2: Judgement Day, aka the terminator!

    Quote Originally Posted by Skylivedk View Post
    I liked your writing style! The level one paragraph had me laughing. Why use strength though? You can ignore movement speed penalties from armour because Dwarf. Without strength you could have more wisdom which would give a better save and some kind of offense
    Because you go hard or go home. Plus, Mountain Dwarf gives me a +2 to Strength, so... why waste it?
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    Default Re: 5e Throwdowns #2: Judgement Day, aka the terminator!

    The T-Halfthousand

    Level 20 level split: Totem Barbarian 12/Thief Rogue 8

    Race: Stout Halfling

    Stats: Str 14, Dex 16, Con 16 (20), Int 8, Wis 12, Cha 8

    Background: Sailor (Pirate - Bad Reputation)

    1st level: Barbarian 1 [AC: HP: 15]

    This is pretty self explanatory. You're a level 1 Barbarian with good Dex. Grab a shield and forget the armour; you've got AC:18 naked and 30 (effective) HP. Why Halfling? 'cos it's funny. And terrifying. Pirate Background is just so he can shove people around and get away with it.

    5th level: Barbarian 1 / Thief Rogue 4 [AC: 19 HP: 52

    +2 Con (18). [2nd Story] Climbing doesn't slow him down. [Cunning Action] Faster than earlier models of terminator.

    11th level: Totem Barbarian 3 / Thief Rogue 8 [AC: 20 HP: 121

    +2 Con (20). [Bear Totem, Uncanny Dodge]. "Effective" HP 4 times listed. [Evasion] "Kill it with fire" no longer applies. Find alternative weapons.

    17th level: Totem Barbarian 9 / Thief Rogue 8 [AC: 20 HP: 193

    Stronger; [Bear Aspect]. Heavy objects no longer obstruct the T-Halfthousand. Faster; [Fast Movement] You cannot run. Enhanced Detection Protocols [Dungeon Delver, Feral Instinct]; optimised to locate hiding spaces, improved reflexes against IEDs, traps and ambush. You cannot hide.

    20th level: Totem Barbarian 12 / Thief Rogue 8 [AC: 20 HP: 269

    [Relentless Rage] Automated repair systems allow the T-Halfthousand to continue to operate after taking critical damage. [Tough] Additional redundant systems enhance resilience.
    I apologise if I come across daft. I'm a bit like that. I also like a good argument, so please don't take offence if I'm somewhat...forthright.

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    Default Re: 5e Throwdowns #2: Judgement Day, aka the terminator!

    Quote Originally Posted by LudicSavant View Post
    I am not talking about Dwarves using armor at all, I'm not sure how you got that impression.

    You referenced the choice leading to lower mobility:

    And the extra movement speed will help you position better for Hour of Reaping
    I assumed you meant losing the enhanced movement speed since dashing wouldn't be commonly needed on a Monk for positioning purposes usually, though since you weren't talking about armor I guess you did mean Step of the Wind?


    Right, and it's not actually super good at doing that, for reasons above. What you gain from Dwarven Fortitude is offset by what you lose in other factors like AC (which happens to synergize exceptionally well with Dodge, as well as with various Long Death features).

    You can spend hit dice to heal HP when you Dodge (giving you more hp for that fight, if not the adventuring day overall) but will be taking more damage in exchange. Does that make sense?
    I get where you're coming from, there's definitely a trade off but just by going for that kind of build you're inherently trading maxing stats early (and so some AC) for more hp. If you go Hill Dwarf then you can start with 15AC (so a dodging 'AC' of 20 which is pretty good), lower than an optimal Monk race, but to compensate you get an extra 2hp per level (starting stats of: 8 15 16 8 16 10) and a decent resistance. IMO (it feels that way based on experience, I haven't ran hard numbers) that extra hp cushion offsets the lower AC, especially since a this kind of build is just more likely to use Patient Defense in the first place rather than bonus attack or flurry. I don't really agree with it conflicting with Long Death abilities in a meaningful way (apart from the temptation to spend ki on patient defense), Touch of Death only triggers when you finishe a creature off, something which is more down to chance than anything else you could go entire combats or days (I know I have) damaging creatures only to not actually get the final kill (barring any bag of rats cheese which it seems vulnerable to).

    I think the biggest trade off really is the lower to hit and damage but in the context of the thread that isn't super important and you can still be competent in that department and stun folks.

    But different strokes different folks
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    Default Re: 5e Throwdowns #2: Judgement Day, aka the terminator!

    Quote Originally Posted by Dork_Forge View Post
    You referenced the choice leading to lower mobility
    That's not because of armor, it's just a part of being a dwarf (e.g. they have a 25 foot movement speed).
    Quote Originally Posted by ProsecutorGodot
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    Default Re: 5e Throwdowns #2: Judgement Day, aka the terminator!

    Right so having already done a 100% magic approach, now i'll do the opposite!

    Even Less Frills
    Hill Dwarf Fighter (Battlemaster) 10 / Barbarian 2 / Rogue (Swashbuckler) 8
    Total Hit Points: 60 (Fighter) + 14 (Barbarian) + 40 (Rogue) + 100 (Con) + 20 (H Dwarf) + 40 (Tough) = 274 by taking average.

    Str 13 (14), Dex 14, Con 17 (20), Int 8, Wis 13 (14), Cha 10

    ASI Choices:
    Resilient (Wis)
    Dwarven Fortitude
    Durable
    Tough
    +1 Con, +1 Str

    Survivorship credentials:
    + Poison resistance
    + Heavy Armor + Shield proficiency
    + Fighting Style (Defense)
    + Second Wind
    + Action Surge
    + Battlemaster Maneuvers (Evasive Footwork, Parry)
    + Indomitable
    + Rage
    + Unarmored Defense
    + Danger Sense
    + Cunning Action
    + Fancy Footwork
    + Uncanny Dodge
    + Evasion

    Tier 1: 3 Fighter then 2 Barbarian
    Starting out you're a thick tin can with heavy armor, shield, defensive FS and using the dodge action coupled with second wind to heal up when you do get injured. Action surge can be used to quaff a potion or attack I suppose. Battlemaster nets you actionless bonuses to AC while moving and a use for your reaction, potentially turn hits against you into misses. Branching into Barb instead of taking an ASI will suck, but it's all for a good cause because you get rage to use your bonus action on before getting hurt and using second wind. This means you will want to drop from heavy armor to medium and start using action surge to attack if nobody is targeting you but that's OK, the damage resistance and save advantage makes up for it. A second level in barb nets us advantage on Dex saves in the odd event we don't use our action to dodge.

    Tier 2: 1 fighter then 4 Rogue
    Going back to fighter for a level gets our first ASI, which we will use on fixing up our Wisdom saves as up until now getting stopped in our tracks by things like Hold Person has been a primary weakness. Then we start taking Rogue levels; expertise in athletics helps avoid grapple attempts and Cunning Action lets us use our bonus action to close distance faster if necessary. A second ASI nets us the ability to heal as we Dodge.

    Tier 3: 4 Rogue + 1 fighter
    Just a few more levels in Rogue get us Uncanny Dodge and Evasion, both very important features doubling down on damage mitigation we already possess. Just remember to carefully weigh up your choice between Uncanny Dodge and Battlemaster Parry when facing incoming attacks. We finish up with Rogue 8 to pick up Durable, increasing our dodge action healing then back into Fighter to catch up on more ASIs.

    Tier 4: 5 Fighter
    If we live this long this stage is all about maxxing out our HP with Tough and a final ASI to get our Con to 20, but we also net ourselves Indomitable and an increase to our BM die size as well.

    Alternatives:
    - Warforged don't need to eat/sleep/breathe and really play up the visual, you could swap Dwarven Fortitude for Alert, Defensive Duelist, Lucky or something else
    - Dropping one level of fighter or Rogue loses you an ASI in return for picking up the ever-popular bear totem for barbarian. It is only a net 20 HP, so probably a fair trade really
    - Tiefling using Infernal Constitution trades dodge-healing for fire and cold resistance plus the options of taking up alternative racial traits like flight and Armor of Agathys as a racial spell
    - Swapping BM for Samurai nets you some THP instead of maneuver defenses, but to me it's not enough to be worth it. But you could take up Defensive Duelist with this to mimic Parry.
    Last edited by Kane0; 2020-05-16 at 06:53 PM.
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  25. - Top - End - #25
    Barbarian in the Playground
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    Default Re: 5e Throwdowns #2: Judgement Day, aka the terminator!

    I was going to submit something along the lines of Ancient Paladin / Scout Rogue but I only just now realized Uncanny Dodge specifically only works on Attacks not all damage.
    It's time for a preemptive retaliatory strike.

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  26. - Top - End - #26
    Dwarf in the Playground
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    Default Re: 5e Throwdowns #2: Judgement Day, aka the terminator!

    The True Chosen of Gruumsh.

    Ok, so my idea is this: Half-Orc Divine Soul Sorcerer, Sage Background. Will try to do a proper write up later, but for just getting the idea out, here it is.

    In a nut shell: we are a standard buffing and twinning sorceror until we get level 4 spells and then it's all about Polymorph. Take Warcaster, Lucky, Tough, Resilient (Wisdom) in roughly that order. Between Con saving throw proficiency, advantage on Con saving throws to maintain concentration, Lucky, and Favored by the gods, plus the Con bonuses of the beasts we shall be polymorphing ourselves into ( T-rex at level 7 [Sage background: would definitely have seen at least one picture book with a dinosaur] and Giant Ape, at level 8, which we are fluffing as a huge Orc, a champion of Gruumsh-incarnate) we should be pretty confident in making our Con saving throws.

    Tough should apply to our Polymorph forms, adding a chunk of HP.

    Aid is available for us, we upcast it to boost our max HP in all forms, adding more chunks of HP.

    Heroes Feast is available at spell level 6, boosting max HP even further. Aid and Heroes Feast should stack as a) it increases max HP (i.e. it is not Temp HP) and b) they are from two different sources. Meaning huge chunks of extra bonus HP on top of all our castings of Polymorph.

    We can pick up Scrying to track pur prey.

    Only definite metamagic is subtle, to avoid Counterspell. Twin Polymorph to allow another combatant to feel the power of Gruumsh flow through them. Quicken Polymorph if you dont fear Counterspell (or pick up counterspell yourself to counter their Counterspell) and then proceed to crack their skulls.

    We can burn lower level spell slots into sorceror points to change into level 4 slots for Polymorph when needed.

    Level 18 brings us Unearthly recovery, which ties in nicely with the Half-Orc "stand back up with 1HP" ability.



    Not super detailed, but a boatload of HP coming at you from a full caster. Also, AL legal if that matters to you.


    Edit 1:
    After sorceror 18, you could split a few different ways.

    Barb 2 seems counter intuitive, with no-concentration while raging. But Barb brings a few interesting things that do work while Polymorph'ed: Reckless Attack, Unarmored Defense, and Danger Sense.

    Fighter 2 for action surge. Dimension door next to the enemy caster, action surge Polymorph.
    Last edited by Chad.e.clark; 2020-05-16 at 07:55 PM. Reason: Expanding on ideas

  27. - Top - End - #27
    Barbarian in the Playground
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    Mar 2017

    Default Re: 5e Throwdowns #2: Judgement Day, aka the terminator!

    Oh the heck with it- it won't hurt me to toss it in anyways. I'm not experienced enough in this sort of thing to know which levels should go where though but I've spent long enough thinking about it that it's a waste if I don't post it. It could probably be improved.

    I don't have a neat title but I guess I would call it The Resistant?


    Level 20 level split: 15 Ancient Paladin / 5 Rogue

    Race: Prob Variant Human

    Stats:
    Str 13+1
    Dex 13*
    Con 15+1
    Int 8
    Wis 9
    Cha 14
    *For your Variant Human feat I would grab Resilient (Dex) to get your Dex to 14 and to gain Proficiency in Dex Saving Throws.

    Starting level: Paladin
    Start Paladin and take it to level 2 so you can get that Defense Fighting Style to up your AC by 1.
    Starting as Paladin gets you the best Proficiency gains in weapons, armor, and shields, as well as a better starting hit die.
    Thanks to taking Resilient (Dex) at level 1 you will start the game Proficient in Dex, Wis, and Cha Saving Throws.


    At 5th level:
    The Rogue subclass is up to you given you're after the core Rogue abilities- personally I think Scout would work best for our purposes because as a Reaction you can reposition and thus potentially get out of a bad situation such as if you're being Flanked between two creatures. To boot it works best with the Ancient Paladin flavor of being a wilderness warrior. Not the most extreme white-room value but positioning and the ability to reposition can be quite important in some situations. There's not a lot of classes that can, at level 3, walk away from up to 7 enemies and not take a single attack from it as a Reaction.

    You could go for Arcane Trickster however you're only looking at two 1st level spells outside of Enchantment and Illusion. If you choose that path instead I would recommend stuff that doesn't require Saves as your Intelligence is garbage. Pick something like Shield (+5 AC) or Absorb Elements (resistance to magic damage of certain elements). Given you're an Ancients Paladin, or at least you will be, Absorb Elements is fairly redundant.


    At 11th level:
    Spend one of those ASI's on Shield Master. Not only do you gain a useful Bonus Action if you're not busy Smiting- any Dexterity Saving Throw (which is most of the blasting spells and magical effects) that allows you to Save for half- you can instead Save to block the whole thing. And you get to add the shield's value to your Dex Save as well.
    The other ASI should go to buffing either your Con or your Cha by 2. Con will get you more hit points but Cha will buff all your Saves. I will frankly assume you go for Charisma as I'm playing up the damage mitigation part of the build instead of the raw hit points.

    If you've reached all 5 levels in Rogue at this point then you have Uncanny Dodge- allowing you to take half damage from a given Attack once per round per your Reaction. That's anything with an Attack Roll halved for your Reaction.
    Given you should be at least 6 levels in Paladin at this point, specifically Ancients Paladin, you get to add your Charisma Mod to any Saving Throw you make. If you're encountering a bit more magical firepower than you'd like then hold off on Uncanny Dodge so you can go one level beyond 6 and gain free damage resistance to all spell-based magical damage.

    You could make a Dexterity Saving Throw at 4 (Prof) + 2 (Dex Mod) + 2 (Shield) + 3 (Cha Mod) for a whopping +11 to a given roll. Given the absolute max one of these can be without items interfering is 18, that's pretty potent stuff for avoiding that kind of spell.


    At 17th level:
    Kronk what do you think?
    "Oh yeah, it's all coming together."

    At this point you should have both of your main Paladin Auras up and running- giving you permanent resistance to damage inflicted by spells AND a hefty bonus to your Saving Throws so long as you're awake. In addition by this point there is no chance you don't have your Aura of Courage as well- which is straight-up no being Frightened for you.
    If it's a Dexterity Save you're adding over 12 to your given roll.
    Any single Attack Roll that deals damage you can half for your Reaction.
    We're sitting at two more ASIs. Your options are again Constitution or Charisma. You could alternatively go for Tough if you want more hp than a single Con bump will give you. I will again assume you've bumped Charisma both times per this build to max it out at 20.


    At 20th level and final thoughts:
    Well this is it. You've become as survivable as I could think of under my own power at least without copying someone else.
    Finish up that Ancient Paladin to get the level 14 ability to turn off a given spell afflicting you if you failed the Saving throw to keep it off the first time and the level 15 ability where once, no matter what, you can survive being dropped to 0 and instead only drop to 1.

    At 15 levels of Paladin and 5 levels of Rogue you're looking at:
    An average of 155 hp. (15d10 + 5d8 + 60) and not only that- you're sitting on 75 points of healing you can toss out in a single go.
    Your AC should be 15 + 2 + 2 + 1 for a total of 20 assuming you've scrounged up a suit of Half Plate and a Shield.
    At a minimum any individual Saving Throw you make will have +4 added to it in the case of Intelligence and fully half of them will be sitting at a comfortable +11 because of your Proficiency and Aura stacking.
    Both AC and your Saves can both be increased with certain Paladin spells- which you can cast all the way up to the 4th level. That means you can cast Death Ward you lucky pluck- not only will this let you repeat that bit about dropping to 0 and then living again once more but it explicitly will let you avoid auto-kill stuff that would normally avoid that exact thing.

    The power of this build (at least so far as I can tell) is its ability to undo magical assaults. You have a large variety of methods to stave off those attacks but even if you fail to resist them you will possess all of the tools needed to remove them at least a few times. To boot you can be pretty mobile between your Rogue Bonus Actions and Reactions to slip in and out of your enemy clutches to prevent them from putting you in a bad situation.
    Your minimum Dex Saving Throw with this build is 16- you need to roll a 3 to match the highest Dex Save another PC can throw at you. And being a Shield Master if you make that Save for Half then you can turn that half to 0.
    Last edited by SociopathFriend; 2020-05-16 at 09:53 PM.
    It's time for a preemptive retaliatory strike.

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  28. - Top - End - #28
    Barbarian in the Playground
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    Jun 2016

    Default Re: 5e Throwdowns #2: Judgement Day, aka the terminator!

    I have a rather unorthodox hard-to-kill build, most similar to Kane0's abjurer so far:

    DunDun-Dun-DunDun
    Level 20 split: 1 Divine Soul Sorcerer / 19 Swords Bard

    Race: Half Elf

    Stats: Str 8, Dex 16, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 12, Cha 16→20

    Background: Inheritor (Survival + Arcana) or Golgari Agent from Ravnica (Survival + Nature, and access to the Entangle spell)

    Starting level: 8 hp, 13 AC
    It doesn't matter much which we start with. I slightly prefer to start Sorcerer for Con proficiency, Shield, and lots of cantrips, including Resistance. Also because it just makes more sense than becoming a Sorcerer later on. Law for Bless, or Neutrality for Protection from Evil and Good. The last Sorcerer/Cleric spell can go to Absorb Elements.

    Once per short rest, Favored by the Gods helps us to survive whatever save our prey throws at us via a 2d4 bonus.

    Pick up Intimidation and drum proficiency upon becoming a Bard so that we can DunDun Dun DunDun our way towards whatever poor soul we're bearing down on.

    At 5th level: 36 hp, 16+ AC

    Skills: 7/8 of: Arcana, Insight, Intimidation, Investigation, Nature, Perception, Stealth, and Survival. Jack of All Trades for everything else, including initiative and spell checks.

    Plus, we're an expert in two of them. Probably Survival, Investigation, or Perception to help track down our target(s).

    Bard gets us tons of great spell options. Pick 7 to fit the theme (extending our own survival, ending our target's survival, and finding our target so we can then end its survival):
    - 1st - Bane, Cure Wounds, Dissonant Whispers, Faerie Fire, Feather Fall, Heroism,
    - 2nd - Blindness/Deafness, Detect Thoughts, Heat Metal, Hold Person, Invisibility, See Invisibility, Lesser Restoration, Phantasmal Force, Silence, Warding Wind

    We also get a little extra out-of-combat healing via Song of Rest.

    But most importantly of all, we can buff our defense for 4 rounds with Defensive Flourish. With one more level-up, it will refresh on a short rest. Swords Bard also gets us medium armor, so we can have base 16 AC in a breastplate.


    At 11th level: 78 hp, 16+ AC

    Our Flourish now runs on d10s. Also, we attack twice per turn as of Swords Bard 6.

    Also, we get more expertise here. Maybe Stealth and Intimidation to help set terrifying ambushes. dundun dun dundun

    + another 5 notable Bard spells:
    - 3rd - Bestow Curse, Dispel Magic, Fear, Glyph of Warding, Hypnotic Pattern, Leo's Tiny Hut, Nondetection,
    - 4th - Dimension Door, Greater Invisibility, Locate Creature, Polymorph,
    - 5th - Animate Objects, Dominate Person, Dream, Geas, Hold Monster, Synaptic Static

    And even more importantly, 2 of these Magical Secrets:
    - Counterspell, Spirit Guardians, Find Greater Steed, Resilient Sphere, Destructive Wave, Telekinesis


    At 17th level: 120 hp, 18+ AC (standard 21 AC w/out resources)

    Our Defensive Flourish now runs on d12s. Even better, we can spam it as a d6 for free starting at Swords Bard 14.

    + another 3 notable Bard spells:
    - 6th - Eyebite, Tue Seeing,
    - 7th - Regenerate, Teleport
    - 8th - Dominate Monster, Feeblemind, Glibness

    + 2 Magical Secrets:
    - Contingency, Disintegrate, Sunbeam, Wind Walk, Simulacrum

    Pick up War Caster as the first feat back at Bard 12 (or earlier, if necessary). The remaining two ASIs aren't as integral, but Medium Armor Master seems like the right fit (heh) for the extra AC.

    (However, if Find Greater Steed was a Magical Secret, then Elven Accuracy may be preferable here, with Mounted Combatant as the capstone.)

    At 20th level and final thoughts: 141 hp, 18+ AC (standard 21 AC)

    + 1 more Bard spell:
    - 9th - Foresight, Psychic Scream, True Polymorph

    And the last 2 Magical Secrets:
    - Demiplane, Mighty Fortress, Invulnerability, Wish

    The capstone should probably go to Lucky. Other options are Tough, Resilient Dex, or even Alert or an actual ASI.


    Bottom line:

    The main thing that makes this build so hard to kill is spamming Defensive Flourish, probably while invisible, and supplemented with Shield when that isn't enough. With Medium Armor Master letting us get the full use of our Half Plate for a base 18 AC (even as we stealth), and free +1d6 Flourishes, our AC is generally around 21 or so (ranging from 19-24). Shield bumps that average to 26. And when we're against something dangerous, we can spend actual Bardic Inspiration dice to Defensive Flourish for an average of 24 AC, or 29 if we need to Shield.

    - But with a 12 on our Flourish's Bardic Inspiration die, that jumps to a max of 30 / 35 AC! (Or still a minimum of 19 / 24 with a 1 on the die.)

    As usual, spell choice is also crucial. But the most important spells for realizing the essence of a Terminator - the assassin that just keeps coming - concept are probably Contingency and Regenerate. And as a max level full caster, we can cast both twice without eating a higher level slot! (Heroism can serve as a poor man's Regenerate, if we can keep our concentration going. Under the right circumstances, a Glyph could help with that.)

    - Foresight's essentially permanent advantage / disadvantage to everything also cements this as a basically unkillable character. Without that, the only boost to saves comes from the Divine Soul's level 1 and the Lucky feat. Though Wishing for Clones and Simulacrums does the trick, too.


    TLDR: Summary of Defenses

    • spammable Defensive Flourish for +1d6 AC
    • ⤷ standard 18+ / 23+ AC (medium armor master in half plate + Shield) = average 21 / 26 AC
    • or real Defensive Flourish for +1d12 AC five times / short rest = average 24 / 29 AC
    • Foresight for advantage / disadvantage on everything
    • Lucky for "super (dis)advantage" when we need it
    • - or Greater Invisibility for (dis)advantage on all attacks
    • Regenerate
    • Contingency
    • Counterspell, and many more great spells, possibly including Resilient Sphere
    • War Caster and Con save proficiency to maintain concentration
    • Fey Ancestry & Darkvision
    • Favored by the Gods for +2d4 to 1 save / rest
    Last edited by HPisBS; 2020-05-23 at 01:44 AM. Reason: + 2d4 to summary

  29. - Top - End - #29
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    PaladinGuy

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    Nov 2016

    Default Re: 5e Throwdowns #2: Judgement Day, aka the terminator!

    Welp, I added in my one build. I have a second build, but its really, really boring to be honest...But I may as well add it too.


    Just a Moon Druid

    Level 20 level split: Circle of the Moon Druid: 20

    Race: Yuan-Ti

    Starting Stats: Str: 8 / Dex: 13 / Con: 15 / Int: 9+1 / Wis: 15 / Cha: 10+2

    Ending Stats: Str: 8 / Dex: 14 / Con: 16 / Int: 10 / Wis: 20 / Cha: 12

    Background: Hermit

    ASIs: Take your ASI's in the following order

    - Resilient: Dexterity
    - Con+1 / Wis +1
    - Wis +2
    - Toughness
    - Wis +2


    Levels 1-20:

    So, seeing as there is no multiclassing in this build, there's no real reason to go over how it works in ever tier. Its a Moon Druid, everyone knows how they work, and honestly this build does nothing new on that front. You're going to use Wild Shape to Tank, and spells to aid in that tanking. You have Conjure Animals/Elementals/Woodland Spirits to aid in tanking by giving the enemy more targets to focus on, as well as a ton of battlefield control to help mitigate damage without really avoiding it. And at level 20 you can't die from normal means. Unless whatever you're fighting is doing more then 126 damage each and every round, your base HP can't be touched because you can just refresh your Wild shape HP as a Bonus Action each round. I have looked into it, you don't have to change forms. You can go from an Earth Elemental with 20 HP to an Earth Elemental with full HP without dropping out of Wild Shape.

    While the build itself is a standard Moon Druid, the Race selection and feats are what help make this nearly unkillable. Thanks to Toughness and a 16 in Con, you'll be sitting around 203 HP in your base form. So even if you get knocked out of Wild Shape, you have HP on par with a Barbarian. Meanwhile Resilient: Dexterity gives you Proficiency in Dex saves while Yuan-Ti grants you advantage to all saves against spells and magical effects

    As for the Race, I was torn between Yuan-Ti and Half-Elf for a while. You basically have a choice between advantage on saves against magic and immunity to poison or better starting ability scores, an extra Feat, and Sleep immunity. After having fixed my original mistake, I went with the Yuan-Ti. While Shield Master can help you avoid the effects of Disintegrate, so can advantage on the save. You are vulnerable to Sleep, but only if you forget to refresh your Wild Shape Form.

    All in all, this is one of the tankiest builds I can think of. No other class or ability can give you 126 HP every round as a Bonus Action at level 20 while also giving you mobility options. Funnily enough, because Elementals are immune to Exhaustion, you can technically go without sleep, just like my Barbarian build above. So you can keep moving steadily towards the target, night and day, until you eventually run out of spell slots and have to take a long rest.


    EDIT: I removed Resilient: Con from the build. Resilient: Dex is far better, and you sadly can't have both.
    Last edited by sithlordnergal; 2020-05-17 at 12:53 PM.
    Never let the fluff of a class define the personality of a character. Let Clerics be Atheist, let Barbarians be cowardly or calm, let Druids hate nature, and let Wizards know nothing about the arcane

    Fun Fact: A monk in armor loses Martial Arts, Unarmored Defense, and Unarmored Movement, but keep all of their other abilities, including subclass features, and Stunning Strike works with melee weapon attacks. Make a Monk in Fullplate with a Greatsword >=D


  30. - Top - End - #30
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Greywander's Avatar

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    Nov 2017

    Default Re: 5e Throwdowns #2: Judgement Day, aka the terminator!

    Quote Originally Posted by sithlordnergal View Post
    ASIs: Take your ASI's in the following order

    - Resilient: Dexterity
    - Wis +2
    - Resilient: Constitution
    - Toughness
    - Wis +2
    I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but you can't take Resilient twice. IIRC, Elemental Adept is the only feat that allows you to take it more than once.

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