5e Throwdowns #2: Judgement Day, aka the terminator!

[N7Paladin]

I don't get why it's so hard for people to understand, or why they're being rude.

It's not a difficult concept, but one of the entries that's getting votes, very clearly doesn't meet the heart of the challenge. Sorry, but some of these votes shouldn't count bc the entry itself doesn't qualify as it doesn't meet the hard to kill concept. Some of the votes seem misplaced; this isn't a healer build or a build revolving a group.

I want to enter one of my [few] non-paladins characters, but some of this seems too much of a circlejerk and if the player had any respect (for themselves and everyon else entering) he/she should rescind his/her build or change it.

[Greywander]

I think what Dork_Forge is saying is that a build that does well in a party but can't stand up in solo doesn't fit the spirit of the thread. The important thing is that the build can hold up in solo, but if it also performs well in a party then voters might consider that an extra benefit. Essentially, I think it boils down to, "You can't assume party members, just like you can't assume magic items." Magic items may or may not be present, in an actual-play scenario. Likewise, party members, generally, or specific builds, may or may not be present. Our builds shouldn't rely on them, but they don't have to dismiss them, either.

The Regenerator is still pretty survivable in solo, but seems like it would do best in a party. Whether that's enough to win the contest is up to us, the voters, not to Dork_Forge. Ultimately, we're the ones who make the decision, Dork_Forge merely sets everything up and gets it rolling.

[Skylivedk]

I don't get why it's so hard for people to understand, or why they're being rude.

It's not a difficult concept, but one of the entries that's getting votes, very clearly doesn't meet the heart of the challenge. Sorry, but some of these votes shouldn't count bc the entry itself doesn't qualify as it doesn't meet the hard to kill concept. Some of the votes seem misplaced; this isn't a healer build or a build revolving a group.

I want to enter one of my [few] non-paladins characters, but some of this seems too much of a circlejerk and if the player had any respect (for themselves and everyon else entering) he/she should rescind his/her build or change it.

I don't get your point. If you use healing to tank (like a regenerating Terminator) and you do so as well or better than (most) other tanks while providing other tank benefits (hard to ignore, denies access to squishy party members) should you then be punished for adding more abilities? That makes no sense to me.

I could understand if your build did something like that INSTEAD of being hard to put down. When it is hard to put down AND actually does something else, it ought to be a plus (especially if it is on theme), not a minus or disqualification.

[Dork_Forge]

I think what Dork_Forge is saying is that a build that does well in a party but can't stand up in solo doesn't fit the spirit of the thread. The important thing is that the build can hold up in solo, but if it also performs well in a party then voters might consider that an extra benefit. Essentially, I think it boils down to, "You can't assume party members, just like you can't assume magic items." Magic items may or may not be present, in an actual-play scenario. Likewise, party members, generally, or specific builds, may or may not be present. Our builds shouldn't rely on them, but they don't have to dismiss them, either.

The Regenerator is still pretty survivable in solo, but seems like it would do best in a party. Whether that's enough to win the contest is up to us, the voters, not to Dork_Forge. Ultimately, we're the ones who make the decision, Dork_Forge merely sets everything up and gets it rolling.

Exactly this, thank you for typing that out!

There was a thread about why we don't have these kinds of competitions, I enjoy this kind of thing so have been trying my best to facilitate it, up until today I thought it had been going rather well!

[Kane0]

Yeah i thought the concept was pretty clear and things were going well. Mind you neither of my builds really had drawing aggro in mind.

The Regenorator seems to be a fine survivor, it just gets its longevity by healing itself instead of shrugging off incoming damage in the first place. A Paladin could do the same thing to a lesser degree.

[Chaos Jackal]

Well, given that the Life Cleric in question works from lv1, boasts decently high AC, decently high saves, the ability to pop back from death, actions to spare on Dodge while still hitting stuff and healing and massive amounts of effective HP from said healing, I'd say it fits the theme. There's nothing in the build that relies on other party members, as far as I can see.

My vote and the reasons for it remain unchanged.

[Dark.Revenant]

My vote mostly hinged on whether to include party performance (in addition to solo) in my evaluation, or to evaluate purely on solo performance to the exclusion of everything else.

I actually think the Regenerator is more survivable, for the narrow definition of survival, than the competition. It falls behind T-42 in damage output, which makes it the lesser of the two in practical soloing scenarios, but in terms of just “stay alive as long as possible” it’s hard to argue with thousands of HP of healing.

It came down to “is being somewhat better at actually winning solo fights more important of an X-factor than basically making your team unbeatable?” For me, the latter is more appealing.

[Kane0]

If anything, Dork Forge, it might be cool to have some sample opposition that our terminators would have to weather fire from. To test our mettle so to speak.
Probably do that after submissions though so we cant make anything to address those threats speficifally.

[sithlordnergal]

Hmmm, I like the Regenerator...if there's one mark I'd put against it, its that it relies heavily of spell slots, and Regenerate takes a minute to cast. So you can't really do it if you're caught with your pants down. Plus once you're out of spell slots to heal, you're kind of up the creek without a paddle.

Would it win against a plain Moon Druid? Ehhh, tier 1 I don't think it would, tier 2 I'd say they're evenly matched due to the Druid's spell list, tier 3 the cleric wins hands down, and at level 20 the Moon Druid wins due to resourceless, bonus action Wild Shapes that don'trequire attack rolls to hit you and never need to sleep because of exhaustion immunity.

That said, I give my vote to the Regenorator, because it is far more interesting then a Moon Druid.

[Skylivedk]

While updating the SkyNet post to remove walls of text, add some flavour and a how-to-play and structure the whole thing better (aka to be less of a freaking meat-bag when posting), SkyNet broke GitP:


I don't know if it counts for something.

I fixed it.

Now, I fear my electronics.

[bid]

Hmmm, I like the Regenerator...if there's one mark I'd put against it, its that it relies heavily of spell slots, and Regenerate takes a minute to cast. So you can't really do it if you're caught with your pants down. Plus once you're out of spell slots to heal, you're kind of up the creek without a paddle.

A barbarian MC will run out of rage too. Every build has its bane.

Regenerator wins on creativity IMHO.

[Dork_Forge]

So my own personal approach to a hard to kill build usually ends up looking like Wovlerine (or in a Terminator sense, more like the T1000), taking a decent/good AC to mitigate hits but relying on a temp hp buffer, sheer amount hit points and the ability to heal at a ridiculous rate to endure. I've played this build in one shots, in PvP and I'm currently playing it in DiA and it's working out really well, I can stand shoulder to shoulder with our straight Paladin without any real fear of dropping so far.

The Wolverine (T-1000)



Level 20 Split: Fighter 1/ Celestial Chainlock 14/ Divine Soul 1/ chainlock 3/ Fighter 1

Race: V. Human (Tough)

Starting stats: Str: 8 / Dex: 14 / Con: 15 (16) / Int: 8 / Wis: 10 / Cha: 15(16)

Background:To taste

Spoiler: At 1st Level

Show

Our starting level will be in Fighter picking up the Defense style, giving us:

HP:15 AC: 19 (Chain mail, Defense, shield)

Healing Factor: we can Second Wind for 1d10+1 every short rest.

Spoiler: At 5th Level

Show

HP:55 AC: 19 (swapping from Chain to Breastplate if possible)

ASI at 5th bumping Cha to 18

We'll be taking Pact of the Chain (Imp that mostly stays hidden and out of range) and Gift of the Ever Living Ones to max all of our personal heals. Fiendish Vigor will give us False Life temp hp on tap (8 if your DM is okay with recasting until you max it since it's an at will ability, 6.5 avg if not) and Agonizing Blast will give us our pilfered gun so to speak.

Healing factor:
-Second Wind (11hp) per short rest

-Healing Light (30hp. up tp 24hp in a single bonus action) per long rest

-Cure Wounds (20hp per action) up to twice per short rest

Spoiler: At 11th Level

Show

HP: 105 AC: 20 (Half Plate, shield, Defense)

ASI maxing our Cha at 9th level

With our 4th Invocation comes our panic button: Tomb of Levistus- as a reaction gain 100 temp hp (which takes the triggering damage), you get vulnerability to fire (but with that kind of temp hp a fair trade off), you get incapacitated though so not great if concentrating

5th invocation to taste

We also now have resistance to Radiant damage (and a bump to fire and radiant damage)

Temp HP: 15 whenever we finish a rest, 6.5 avg at will from Fiendish Vigor to top up between encounters (10thp for our familiar and 4 party members)

Healing factor:
-Second Wind (11hp) per short rest

-Healing Light (60hp, up to 30hp as a single bonus action) per long rest

-Cure Wounds (45hp per action) up to twice per rest

Spoiler: At 17th Level

Show

Our Warlock (12) ASI will bump our Con up to 18.

We get one level of Divine Soul Sorc giving up Divine Favor (2d4) to help with saves once per rest and the option to use Shield or Absorb Elements a couple times per day

We have the invocations we need so choose the rest as you see fit

We have our 6th and 7th level Mystic Arcanums, there's nothing really to boost our durability that I can see so follow your bliss on them.

As for our unkillableness? This is where we dial it to 11:

HP: 191 AC: 20 (25 with Shield)

Temp HP: 20 per rest, 6.5avg at will and 150 on reaction (ToL)

Healing factor:
-Second Wind (11hp) per short rest

-Healing Light (96hp, up to 30hp as a single bonus action) per long rest

-Cure Wounds (45hp per action) up to three per rest

And the big gun

-If we are reduced to 0 then we can get back up at 80hp, deal a bit of radiant damage and potentially blind your enemies

Summary at level 20

ASIs Spent in order: +2 Cha, +2 Cha, +2 Con, +2 Con

Final Stats: Str: 8 / Dex: 14 / Con: 20 / Int: 8 / Wis: 10 / Cha: 20

HP: 256 AC:20 (25)

Temp HP: 22 per any rest (13 for party), 6.5avg at will, 170 reaction (Tomb of Levistus)

Healing factor:
-Second Wind (12hp) per short rest

-Healing Light (108hp, up to 30hp as a single bonus action) per long rest

-Cure Wounds (45hp per action) up to four per short rest

-Searing Vengeance: instead of a death save get back up at 128HP (with aoe damage and blindness) once per long rest

Other Defenses and notable tools:

-Shield

-Absorb Elements

-Counter Spell (auto upcast)

-Dispel Magic (auto upcast)

-Lesser/Greater Restoration

-Divine Favor (2d4 to a save) short rest recharge

-Resistance to Radiant damage

-Action Surge (allowing a Cure Wounds to be cast whilst still be on the offense or to be cast twice if turbo healing is needed) short rest recharge

---

Total amount of damage needed to kill Wolverine (T-1000) in a single combat (assuming all resources are available and spent on self healing: 706 points of damage needed*

^{*This doesn't account for any elemental damage that can be reduced via Absorb Elements and doesn't account for using Sorc slots for healing (potentially another 26hp)}

Final thoughts: I think this is a very strong build overall, with the following strong points:

-Action economy, with so much bonus action and reaction abilities (and the support of Action Surge), we can heal whilst still attacking (casting leveled spells at the same time if we want to)

-A lot of total hp to soak damage if caught unaware or put under a debuff

-Massive amount of self healing (most of which can be shared if desired)

-Temp hp going into every combat

-Defenses against magic and status effects (Counter Spell, Dispel Magic, Greater/Lesser Restoration, Divine Favor)

-Longevity: Warlock slots, Divine Favor, Second Wind, Action Surge and Celestial Resilience are all short rest recharge and Invocations provide a bevy of passive or at will benefits.

[HPisBS]

Throughout this whole thing, I've been thinking about how these builds would survive a general 1-v-many, and how they'd survive any 1-v-1, particularly against other builds here - which means what it'd take to put each one down for good.

Against something with Regenerate (1 min casting time), you just start with Dispel Magic. Poof, that's gone. Even DunDun-Dun-DunDun has to contend with that. Though, being a swords bard, he can just protect his regeneration with Counterspell, so he's got that going for him, at least.

But against a moon druid that can wild shape into an elemental as many times as he wants? That's rough. There's only two surefire ways I can think of to overcome all of that infinite free hp:

1. Power Word Kill to turn the wild shape into a death sentence (just harm it once to get it below 100 hp first - maybe with a readied spell, or something from your Simulacrum).
2. Get it down to ~30 hp, (or, if you have allies, wait for the monk to stun it while it's only down to ~70 hp), before finishing it off with Disintegrate.

There's also Slow to block the whole wildshape-to-wildshape tactic, but that's a bit too finicky, since the druid gets to repeat his save (with proficiency).

- Although, if he's specifically shaped into a Fire Elemental, then a simple Tidal Wave would "splash" so much water on it that the cold damage would not only break the wild shape, but outright kill the druid within.


... Sadly, my favorite build, the T-44 Tank, doesn't have the right tools (heh) against the moon druid. The best it could do is probably to exchange its Brooch of Shielding for Resistant Armor (fire), either concentrate on Animated Objects (if not a fire elemental) or Elemental Bane (cold), then hammer it with Frostbites (or Fire Bolts if not a fire elemental), Force Ballista Cannon shots, and Catapulted water jugs. ...At least there's no real danger of the Tank failing any Con saves, since that's at +18.

It'd be a long, long, LONG slog, but the druid could . . . e v e n t u a l l y. . . land enough crits (literally the only way a fire or water elemental can touch the Tank's AC) to overcome the Tank's endlessly refilling, fire-resistant, 1d8+5 thp. Whereas, a lone Tank wouldn't be able to chew through the wild shapes' free hp fast enough to bring the inner druid down.

- (Now a party of, say, four Tanks vs an equal party of moon druids? That could be a different story, since so much focus fire would be enough to break a wild shape and reach the real druid within, while the druids still couldn't touch the Tanks' real hp without crits or burning high-level spell slots, and even then, those spells will likely fail to overcome the Tanks' crazy-high saves.)


No, for a 1-v-1, you'd really want a full caster with Power Word Kill, or at least Disintegrate. Having a Simulacrum, like the bard can, really helps to overcome the constant hp replenishment via wild shape.

Ultimately, with 1-v-1's, you wind up with: DunDun-Dun-DunDun (Swords Bard) > Moon Druid > T-44 Tank (Artillerist Artificer) > DunDun-Dun-DunDun.

[Dork_Forge]

no new builds will be accepted, please cast your votes and if part of the previous confusion please clarify your votes using the listed method

Here is a list of all entries.

[Lavaeolus]

Terminator build deadline: 22/05/2020 @ 12am BST, 7 EST

Voting deadline: 23/05/2020 @ 12am BST, 7 EST

I probably should've noticed this earlier, and fortunately it leans on the deadline seeming a little earlier than it is than the other way around, but I think the timing's a little off -- or, at least, worthy of clarification.

(I'm assuming BST is British Summer Time and EST is Eastern Standard Time.)

I would read 22/05 @ 12am as the very start of the day, whereas you seem to be using it as the very end (given the voting deadline just passed). Note that means the dates between time zones are different!

This is going to sound a bit more like me being a timezone pedant, but 12am BST is also technically equal to 6pm (18:00) EST. You know how UK switches between GMT and BST? Most of America has gone into daylights savings, which means most places using EST went to EDT (Eastern Daylight Time). You'll find a lot of automatic converters will just correct you and give you EDT results if you use EST, because this is a common and easy mistake to make, but ET (Eastern Time) is the more common term for 'whatever time is currently being observed'.

Finally: given the AM/PM switch, it'd probably be worth either clarifying you mean 7pm, or using the 24-hour-clock. I promise to stop talking time soon, especially after we've already had some discussions about what builds to go for, but it's in the interest of avoiding any time mishaps later on, in future threads.

So, translating all that into what the time should be, I think it should be something like:

Terminator build deadline: 22/05/2020 @ 7pm ET, 23/05/2020 @ 12am BST.

Voting deadline: 23/05/2020 @ 7pm ET, 24/05/2020 @ 12am BST.

A little more messy looking, alas.

EDIT: Fixed my own time mistakes!

[Dork_Forge]

I probably should've noticed this earlier, and fortunately it leans on the deadline seeming a little earlier than it is than the other way around, but I think the timing's a little off -- or, at least, worthy of clarification.

(I'm assuming BST is British Summer Time and EST is Eastern Standard Time.)

I would read 22/05 @ 12am as the very start of the day, whereas you seem to be using it as the very end (given the voting deadline just passed). Note that means the dates between time zones are different!

This is going to sound a bit more like me being a timezone pedant, but 12am BST is also technically equal to 6pm (18:00) EST. You know how UK switches between GMT and BST? Most of America has gone into daylights savings, which means most places using EST went to EDT (Eastern Daylight Time). You'll find a lot of automatic converters will just correct you and give you EDT results if you use EST, because this is a common and easy mistake to make, but ET (Eastern Time) is the more common term for 'whatever time is currently being observed'.

Finally: given the AM/PM switch, it'd probably be worth either clarifying you mean 7pm, or using the 24-hour-clock. I promise to stop talking time soon, especially after we've already had some discussions about what builds to go for, but it's in the interest of avoiding any time mishaps later on, in future threads.

So, translating all that into what the time should be, I think it should be something like:



A little more messy looking, alas.

EDIT: Fixed my own time mistakes!

Ah thank you! I do hate this changing the clocks malarchy! I'll fix that now

[Skylivedk]

Throughout this whole thing, I've been thinking about how these builds would survive a general 1-v-many, and how they'd survive any 1-v-1, particularly against other builds here - which means what it'd take to put each one down for good.

Against something with Regenerate (1 min casting time), you just start with Dispel Magic. Poof, that's gone. Even DunDun-Dun-DunDun has to contend with that. Though, being a swords bard, he can just protect his regeneration with Counterspell, so he's got that going for him, at least.

But against a moon druid that can wild shape into an elemental as many times as he wants? That's rough. There's only two surefire ways I can think of to overcome all of that infinite free hp:

1. Power Word Kill to turn the wild shape into a death sentence (just harm it once to get it below 100 hp first - maybe with a readied spell, or something from your Simulacrum).
2. Get it down to ~30 hp, (or, if you have allies, wait for the monk to stun it while it's only down to ~70 hp), before finishing it off with Disintegrate.

There's also Slow to block the whole wildshape-to-wildshape tactic, but that's a bit too finicky, since the druid gets to repeat his save (with proficiency).

- Although, if he's specifically shaped into a Fire Elemental, then a simple Tidal Wave would "splash" so much water on it that the cold damage would not only break the wild shape, but outright kill the druid within.


... Sadly, my favorite build, the T-44 Tank, doesn't have the right tools (heh) against the moon druid. The best it could do is probably to exchange its Brooch of Shielding for Resistant Armor (fire), either concentrate on Animated Objects (if not a fire elemental) or Elemental Bane (cold), then hammer it with Frostbites (or Fire Bolts if not a fire elemental), Force Ballista Cannon shots, and Catapulted water jugs. ...At least there's no real danger of the Tank failing any Con saves, since that's at +18.

It'd be a long, long, LONG slog, but the druid could . . . e v e n t u a l l y. . . land enough crits (literally the only way a fire or water elemental can touch the Tank's AC) to overcome the Tank's endlessly refilling, fire-resistant, 1d8+5 thp. Whereas, a lone Tank wouldn't be able to chew through the wild shapes' free hp fast enough to bring the inner druid down.

- (Now a party of, say, four Tanks vs an equal party of moon druids? That could be a different story, since so much focus fire would be enough to break a wild shape and reach the real druid within, while the druids still couldn't touch the Tanks' real hp without crits or burning high-level spell slots, and even then, those spells will likely fail to overcome the Tanks' crazy-high saves.)


No, for a 1-v-1, you'd really want a full caster with Power Word Kill, or at least Disintegrate. Having a Simulacrum, like the bard can, really helps to overcome the constant hp replenishment via wild shape.

Ultimately, with 1-v-1's, you wind up with: DunDun-Dun-DunDun (Swords Bard) > Moon Druid > T-44 Tank (Artillerist Artificer) > DunDun-Dun-DunDun.

It depends a lot on starting position and spells. SkyNet could forcecage trap a moon druid. Unfortunately, it is super hard to kill, but I think with your superior action economy (4 actions/spells/concentration slot in a round), you should be able to find a way (how much hp do we need to remove? 126 for Earth Elemental? If the druid is not using Elementals, sickening radiance kills him eventually). The moon druid can't touch your counter-spelling and disintegrate is both on your list (think wish list in the build I posted - EDIT it is) and you can double it.

Just the simulacrum and the main using disintegrate with a forced fail from their level 14 is a dead druid.
You can add two lvl 4 fireballs from your familiar or homunculus activating your level 10 chrono beads.

Actually with the level 14 ability, you can kill in a lot ways. All save or suck spell can work.

The level 10 and 14 abilities plus distant counterspell along with forcecage... It's hard to deal with without good range or counter-spelling. Again granted positioning etc isn't horrible. Hence all the scrying and surveillance spells.

[N7Paladin]

I don't get your point. If you use healing to tank (like a regenerating Terminator) and you do so as well or better than (most) other tanks while providing other tank benefits (hard to ignore, denies access to squishy party members) should you then be punished for adding more abilities? That makes no sense to me.

I could understand if your build did something like that INSTEAD of being hard to put down. When it is hard to put down AND actually does something else, it ought to be a plus (especially if it is on theme), not a minus or disqualification.

No worries, I can definitely see what I said wasn't specific enough for what I was trying to say :)

Here's what I mean, broken down, I hope I don't bore ya

Ignoring the healing and buffing allies part, and the build is only "alright" at being hard to kill. Now, let's keep in mind the focus of the challenge is to be the hardest to kill, not be the best support character.

It depends on spells for pretty much everything, and clerics are long rest casters, and this is a one class build so there's no real way around it.

Next, hit points. For what it's meant to be, the hard to kill, terminator, theme of the challenge, its hit points are medicre at best.

Saying so many thousand hp from "Preserve Life" is super flashy, but in reality it can only heal up to half hp, consumes your action and a lot of that big number is likely gonna be lost. It's a terrible ability for keeping the character alive (at level 20 the best it can do is take the character up to 91hp) and is best suited to party support (which I think the builder thought was part of the challenge anyway), not the actual point of the challenge.

Obviously, it's actually dependent on "Regeneration" to actually be the regenerator--is a 7th level spell with a minute cast time. That's insane to me because a round of combat lasts six seconds. So unless you cast it before a fight (so missing out on a big chunk of the healing it gives) it's completely useless and you don't even get it until 13th level (and this meant to follow a character who is hard to kill, throughout it's entire progression/career, not hard to kill at lvl 20, so this is another bad point). Anyway, back to it, best you can have it for is four hours a day, but then you're using your 8th and 9th level slots on a spell that doesn't even upcast

All it would take is a single successful casting "Dispel Magic" to wipe out: "Aid," "Death Ward," "Regeneration," and any other buffs. Another poster has already highlighted another weakness: "Chill Touch" which does both damage AND shuts down healing. Just those two things together look like a pretty big weakness. Since this character he built is depenedent on spells to make it actually survivable, if it is surprised, it's going to go badly very quickly as it doesn't have a big hp pool to begin with. The longest survival buff is "Death Ward," so unless you're burning through your limited slots to try and cover all day (4 spells slots of 4th level or higher required, assuming it never gets triggered and so needs to be refreshed earlier) you're vulnerable in a way that something like a Half Orc wouldn't be.

Tanking through healing is all well and good, but the build doesn't really tank better than most conventional tanks and is a better Healer of others than anything else, and as I mentioned before, this isn't a healer challenge (and if you are just healing yourself, you're likely losing actions to it and a single "Counter Spell" can really mess you up).


Thanks for reading, I know it was a long reply
------

To the person who said it was very creative or whatever...

I'll admit, I like the name, but to me it by and large doesn't follow the spirit of the challenge and should be better saved for a support character competition. I don't see much creativity in a single class tank that isn't as robust as a single classed Half Orc, Totem of the Bear Barbarian.

I mean no offense to the creator, I just don't think that it's actually very good at what it's meant to be (being hard to kill) and I think some voters have been swayed by the inherent party healing/support a Life Cleric brings (as well as the unexpected nature of using a single classed Cleric for this kind of challenge) instead of focusing on how hard to kill the character itself is.

[Kane0]

Sorta surprised my Abjurer 20 didnt get the same criticism.

[Skylivedk]

Sorta surprised my Abjurer 20 didnt get the same criticism.

The Gish that won last Throwdown also didn't face that question :)

Anyway, weaknesses are valid concerns. That said, it's not hard to get out of counterspell range/LoS, so most of the time the Regenerator can keep on coming. With Spirit Guardians and Spiritual Weapon, you are free to use your action to heal. Plus you have better zone controls/stickiness than most martials due to SG. If you play with a lot of Dispel Magic casting creatures in your campaign, it gets harder.

And if we're talking spells; that would also utterly destroy some of the other builds(ie int or charisma on the barbarian builds). It seems fair to me that we apply the same yardstick across the board.

[N7Paladin]

Sorta surprised my Abjurer 20 didnt get the same criticism.

So first, I'm gonna be completely honest with ya... I am so not the biggest fan of Wizards.

That said, I can see how it looks like it's a similar situation, but there's some big and important differences:

"Arcane Ward" lasts all day once you start it, it can't be dispelled either (well, I don't think so... ).

Poison resistance is nice to have.

Spell resistance is really awesome and always on.

A lot of your defensive spells are reaction based ("Shield," "Absorb Elements," "Counterspell").

The Regenerator has nothing like the aforementioned, and doesn't have any passive countermeasures that make him hard to kill, other than AC.

Being a long rest caster is countered somewhat by "Arcane Recovery" at all levels and "Spell Mastery"/"Signature Spells" at high levels. Even at high levels, how the regenerator is set up is likely to leave it running out of meaningful slots before the day is over. The Abjurer on the other hand, can cast "Shield" all day long and "Counter Spell" once per short rest for free on top of getting spell slots from "Arcane Recovery."

I admit, I don't know how useful "Dwarven Fortitude" is, but it sounds nice to have if things go wrong near the end of the fight.

The whole reason I made the post about the regenerator, though, is because people seemed to be voting for it for the wrong reasons, meaning it could win even though it wouldn't actually being the hardest to kill or even come close, judging by builds like T-44 Tank, or more recently, the Wolverine. Anyway, that wasn't an issue with your Abjurer and I don't like to just criticize people's builds for no reason
-------
Edit:

The Gish that won last Throwdown also didn't face that question :)

-snip-

And if we're talking spells; that would also utterly destroy some of the other builds(ie int or charisma on the barbarian builds). It seems fair to me that we apply the same yardstick across the board.

I'm not sure if your post was in reference to mine, but if it is:

I don't see how that's relevant, I didn't post in that thread...

As for the Regen build, unlike the other builds I've seen in the competition, it very much seems 1) it doesn't follow the challenge and 2) it doesn't actually seem hard to kill at all, judging by it's one sided defenses, and being literally depending on spells for everything.

Additionally, questioning the legitimacy of an entry isn't measuring with a different yard stick, and I'm sorry you feel that way.

You seem to be completely missing the crux of my point--

It looks like people were voting for it because of how well it could heal/buff the party, not based on how hard it is to kill itself.

[Kane0]

I admit, I don't know how useful "Dwarven Fortitude" is, but it sounds nice to have if things go wrong near the end of the fight.

Because as far as i can tell this particular challenge has nothing to do with offensive power i figured using your action to dodge plus heal at the same time would be a good idea.
Turns out a few others had the same thought.

[N7Paladin]

Because as far as i can tell this particular challenge has nothing to do with offensive power i figured using your action to dodge plus heal at the same time would be a good idea.
Turns out a few others had the same thought.

Ohhh!😆 Where's a Picard's facepalm meme when you need it? Of course, that makes perfect sense! Sorry I didn't get it right away, thank you for explaining it 😁

[LudicSavant]

Obviously, it's actually dependent on "Regeneration" to actually be the regenerator

I disagree with your assessment.

I think you're making a lot of assumptions based on superficial factors like the name. You might as well have said "obviously, the build is worthless until level 13." It was a strong tank before then, and doesn't somehow become less versatile or more dependent as soon as it gets Regenerate.

Regenerate is a nice trick, but to me it's just another thing in your toolbox. It's the Regenerator because it heals its wounds, not because of any single spell alone. For instance, at level 1 you can Shield, generate temp HP, heal most or all a character's hp, and Booming Blade in the same round.

A lot of your defensive spells are reaction based ("Shield," "Absorb Elements," "Counterspell").

The Regenerator has nothing like the aforementioned

It has Shield. And Absorb Elements. And your choice of Hellish Rebuke or Counterspell.

So first, I'm gonna be completely honest with ya... I am so not the biggest fan of Wizards.

We will just have to disagree, I think.

[Skylivedk]

So first, I'm gonna be completely honest with ya... I am so not the biggest fan of Wizards.

That said, I can see how it looks like it's a similar situation, but there's some big and important differences:

"Arcane Ward" lasts all day once you start it, it can't be dispelled either (well, I don't think so... ).

Poison resistance is nice to have.

Spell resistance is really awesome and always on.

A lot of your defensive spells are reaction based ("Shield," "Absorb Elements," "Counterspell").

The Regenerator has nothing like the aforementioned, and doesn't have any passive countermeasures that make him hard to kill, other than AC.

Being a long rest caster is countered somewhat by "Arcane Recovery" at all levels and "Spell Mastery"/"Signature Spells" at high levels. Even at high levels, how the regenerator is set up is likely to leave it running out of meaningful slots before the day is over. The Abjurer on the other hand, can cast "Shield" all day long and "Counter Spell" once per short rest for free on top of getting spell slots from "Arcane Recovery."

I admit, I don't know how useful "Dwarven Fortitude" is, but it sounds nice to have if things go wrong near the end of the fight.

The whole reason I made the post about the regenerator, though, is because people seemed to be voting for it for the wrong reasons, meaning it could win even though it wouldn't actually being the hardest to kill or even come close, judging by builds like T-44 Tank, or more recently, the Wolverine. Anyway, that wasn't an issue with your Abjurer and I don't like to just criticize people's builds for no reason
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Edit:


I'm not sure if your post was in reference to mine, but if it is:

I don't see how that's relevant, I didn't post in that thread...

As for the Regen build, unlike the other builds I've seen in the competition, it very much seems 1) it doesn't follow the challenge and 2) it doesn't actually seem hard to kill at all, judging by it's one sided defenses, and being literally depending on spells for everything.

Additionally, questioning the legitimacy of an entry isn't measuring with a different yard stick, and I'm sorry you feel that way.

You seem to be completely missing the crux of my point--

It looks like people were voting for it because of how well it could heal/buff the party, not based on how hard it is to kill itself.

Ok, in the case, rest assured. Personally, I picked it for its ludicrously strong total hp pool along with a bunch of the other tank abilities that I normally find lacking in traditional tanks.

As for battling casters, especially anyone with subtle/distant a lot of the builds suffer. The Dragon Cooker: forcecage + sickening radiance plus subtle/distant counterspell + whatever you want to do with your action will obliterate most of the builds. But let's be honest: that's a very niche case, hence we don't value it very highly. We each have defenses we value highly, and all of the builds have some weaknesses that can be exploited.

I haven't done the calculations comparing the total amount of self-healing on the Wolverine: really cool tank, I love how it also has counterspell and has a way of dealing with status effects. Wis and int saves from outside of counterspell range are a problem. The T-44 is a lot weaker against spells as well with very few tools in that regard.

[Dualswinger]

Frosty the Glowman


Level 20 level split: Celestial Warlock 2 / Abjuration Wizard 18

Race: Mountain Dwarf

Spoiler: Starting Stats

Show

Str: 13(+2 Racial) / Dex: 8 / Con: 13(+2 Racial) / Int: 15 / Wis: 11 / Cha: 13

Spoiler: Level 20 stats

Show

Str: 16 / Dex: 8 / Con: 16 / Int: 20 / Wis: 11 / Cha: 13

ASIs:

- Str+1/Int+1
- Int + 2
- Int +2
- Dwarven Fortitude (+1 Con)

Background: Outlander (No real reason I just like the idea of this "mountain blizzard" character being a rough liver.


Starting level: Celestial Warlock 2 - Abjuration Wizard 2

We all need help getting started, so a Celestial is a good place to give us a leg up. Primarily we're taking this just for the Armor of Shadows invocation, but the bonus action healing 3 times per day is also nice and will make our healer very happy we have a backup. Choose your other invocation to be whatever you want. Misty Visions or Devil's sight would be my choice, but really up to you. The core of this build starts at level Abjuration Wizard 2. Our Arcane Ward can now be recharged at will since we can cast Mage Armor whenever we want. The fact that we're wearing heavy armour for our AC is immaterial, it's an abjuration spell, so that Arcane Ward gets recharged basically at will. Other fun effect? Use our highest spell slot to cast Armor of Agathys. Since Arcane Ward loses its HP before our Temp HP, any melee hit will be bad news for our enemies. This is a Wizard who lives for the front lines.


At 5th level:


From now on it's pretty much Abjuration Wizard all the way. As our spell slots increase, so too does the Frosty Damage. Max out your INT as soon as possible to keep that Arcane Ward high, and if facing a single tough enemy, don't be afraid to burn those slots on Absorb elements or Shield to keep that Ward up.


At 11th level:

More Wizard levels. It's now we get our 5th level slots and higher, so we can do some fun stuff. Don't forget to setup a Contingency to reset your Armor of Agathys if it is depleted. Globe of Invulnerability will make many spellcasters cry.

At 17th level:

Wizarrrrrrd.... Antimagic field also makes spellcasters cry, and you're still an angry Dwarf in platemail when you cast it. Dwarven Fortitude can top up your regular HP (remember that?) if you need to.

At 20th level and final thoughts:

INVULNERABILITY! Just because YOU can't take damage doesn't mean that your enemies won't still trigger Armor of Agathys if they hit you. So bait them into making swipes at your perfect self and let them break like storm upon the mighty mountain. Make sure that your spell mastery choice is absorb elements. It's not action to action damage that worries us, but those hard hitting elemental attacks such as Dragon breaths.



Ultimately it's not our high AC from platemail (though it helps) that gets us through the day, but just our unending ability to use arcane ward to just shrug off damage.

This isn't fully thought out, and I'm sure there are better ways to do it, but the core Chassis of the build is present here. Enjoy! :)

[HPisBS]

I haven't done the calculations comparing the total amount of self-healing on the Wolverine: really cool tank, I love how it also has counterspell and has a way of dealing with status effects. Wis and int saves from outside of counterspell range are a problem. The T-44 is a lot weaker against spells as well with very few tools in that regard.

You sure about that? Lacking Counterspell is certainly unfortunate, but opposing casters will still have a hard time making stuff stick. After all, the Tank's weakest save is Cha at +8, and can be bumped to +13 if necessary, while its weakest common save is Dex with a +10 / +15.

Meanwhile, most save-or-suck spells would have to overcome a whopping +15 / +20 Wis save. Honestly, casting anything other than save-for-half-damage spells at it seems like a waste. ...But, unlike with Counterspell, opposing casters won't be able to recognize that fact -- at least, not easily. Which means, they're likely to continue wasting their spells and actions trying to do the (virtually) impossible.

[Dork_Forge]

snipped

Technically this submission should have been too late, but I made a mistake in listing the deadlines so feel a bit bad about this. I'll add your build into the contenders. (Edit: Done)

Announcement: Due to my error in listing the times originally, I will extend the voting deadline until 11pm BST, 6pm ET on the 24/05/2020

I haven't done the calculations comparing the total amount of self-healing on the Wolverine: really cool tank, I love how it also has counterspell and has a way of dealing with status effects. Wis and int saves from outside of counterspell range are a problem. The T-44 is a lot weaker against spells as well with very few tools in that regard.

I'll reply to this just because it mentions with my build, The Wolverine has Divine Favor as a generic saving throw boost every short rest and I think failing those saves would be mitigated by a combination of his large hp pool, reaction defences and ability to deal with statuses. That's by no means accounting for everything those saves can inflict but he does have defences. I wanted to avoid specifics in the build but on the topic of distance: he's just as good at using Eldritch Blast as any other Warlock, so someone playing it could either hang way back, or charge into the fray (especially if wanting to use something like AoA) but distances get a bit too close to the avoidance clause of the competition, so I just worked under the assumption of decently close quarters.

The T-44 is actually pretty decent against spells, getting temp hp from the turret can't be Counter Spelled, the build gives itself access to save increasing items (cloak of protection etc.), has Flash of Genius and at 20th level has a boost to saving throws per attuned item (which it can start sacrificing if things start to get really dire). T-44 actually have a very strong set of defences against... well everything to be honest, the biggest weakness I can see is not being able to count on turrets in round 1, but it has the tools to survive until round 2 anyway. It'll actually be getting my vote because it is so robust.

[N7Paladin]

snip

I didn't make assumptions on the name, I broke down the sources of self healing and defenses and it didn't seem better than a lot of other builds in this thread. I also didn't say your build was worthless nor did I imply it for you to say i may as well have said so. I even think, although not one for this challenge, it's a decent support character! Even if you **feel** like I **could** have said that (which is what you said), that's not something I can control. I cannot control your thoughts or feelings. The only thing I can do is clarify things for you. So I just wanna make it clear I never said or implied it was worthless. I can understand being protective about something you built, but in the future, please avoid putting words in my mouth or assume what you did. I rather you ask me for clarity instead of making assumptions or appointing projections, I think it's nicer and more respectful.😊

You now what, you are right in that you have "shield," that's my bad in not counting it more, i guess i missed counting it since your build hardly gets to use it. Everything you mentioned is technically true, buuuuut isn't the whole story😐: you could generate temporary hp at the same time that you "Shield," assuming you spend your only hit die to do so (if you even have it still that day) and then roll an even number (the point is to have a hard to kill character on a more permanent basis, not on chance or on and off). Like when you spoke about "Preserve Life," it's technically true but in reality not as great as you make it sound. As for mostly healing a character to full, let's be honest and objective, that drops off immediately at level 2 and is irrelevant for any character that isn't the Regenerator himself in this competition. And you're right you do have "Absorb Elements," ***once per day****, from levels 16-20.

"Healing Spells" that specifically help you aren't that common or particularly useful once you level out of "Healing Word" until you get to 6th level spells and get "Heal" (which comes at the cost of a high level slot and your action). This makes the build really clunky and even less difficult to kill at several points in his career, leaving him vulnerable at times, instead of a more ongoing permanent hard to kill.

The build could have "Counter Spell," but that isn't the build you submitted and if you are just going to list variants to reference it defeats the point of making character building decisions at all. You chose for it to have "Hellish Rebuke," which you clearly rate highly but doesn't heal you, give you temporary hit points, reduce damage, or make you harder to hit. That's a big, big miss IMO. Can I ask, though, why are you bringing in something that wasn't part of your build, as though it is? I don't understand the point of doing so, if it isn't part of said build. But if you want to discuss options that aren't part of builds, I think that's better suited for a different thread or PM.

I also disagree with how you think Dexterity saving throws are not a problem because they are "mostly just damage, so you mostly just shrug them off." Damage is the most important thing to avoid where possible during your entire career as a Tank, especially as the Regenerator doesn't have a lot of hit points when you consider other builds submitted (also why I think you've gotten votes unfairly, maybe even biased towards you idk, but I know that quite a few of the submissions I read are harder to kill, making them more objectively deserving). In regards to total amount of hitpoints, there's 23 builds total in the competition if i counted right. The Regenerator sits in the middle with 11 builds having less hit points and 11 builds having more. Of the builds with less hit points, five of them are within 1-5 less hit points but have other abilities (like Arcane Ward, damage reduction such as Barbarian resistances, "Uncanny Dodge, " etc., **reliable** and even *spammable* sources of temporary hp, and so on).

Please have a look over your summary of the build, ignore any reference to healing others or healing you receive as a result of healing others, and then, if you are able to, objectively compare the build to other builds in this thread. The most noteworthy thing in comparison to other builds, is access to "Death Ward," (which, tbh, a Divine Soul Sorcerer would do better, but that's neither here nor there bc it isn't part of your build). What's frustrating is that your build is, by your own opening speech, more focused on healing and buffing others than itself, not a survivalist, hard to kill, not so much as a solo build **which is the challenge**, and really not as tanky as many others submitted, so the buzz generated is objectively unwarranted, esp. When looking at other builds

I'm not sure why my not liking Wizards much is relevant. I'm a big fan of Sorcerers and Warlocks. But again, irrelevant. Unless you mean that my not liking wizards warrants you to disagree on everything with me 😕

[Waazraath]

No, for a 1-v-1, you'd really want a full caster with Power Word Kill, or at least Disintegrate. Having a Simulacrum, like the bard can, really helps to overcome the constant hp replenishment via wild shape.

Ultimately, with 1-v-1's, you wind up with: DunDun-Dun-DunDun (Swords Bard) > Moon Druid > T-44 Tank (Artillerist Artificer) > DunDun-Dun-DunDun.

Given that there are 23 entries by now, I'm not too fond of comparing only a hand full... Furthermore, I really wouldn't want to judge builds on how they perform 1 on 1 - that's a game on its own, and wasn't the challenge.

Having said that, my vote goes to the T-44: Tank - mostly cause it has the same concept as my own (trixie) Artificer with gun(s), max saves, AC and hp. It outperforms my build with AC, mine outperforms this one with HP. The temporary HP battery is a strong addition to survivability, arguably on par with a steel defender, but less situational.