What do you do when you hate a player's character?

[Lorsa]

Also rather late to the party here but I wanted to say a thing or two as well.

First off is that I agree that you don't really hate the PC, you hate how the PC is being portrayed, or played out, by the player. IF you have a PC in itself, I think you'll know instantly even before the game starts. Rather, this is an issue that has to do with the player, not the character. Don't be confused by the player making excuses that it's what their character would do.

So, there is one important thing you need to consider first. And that is:

1. Does the player care that he (I assumed it was a him right?) is ruining the fun of other players?
2. Is the player aware of that he is ruining the fun of other players?

I mean, he could care but not be aware, and he could be aware but not care. Figuring out which is the case is important for how to proceed.

In the case of not being aware, you need to inform him. If he doesn't care, you need to throw him out of the group (and stop being his friend if you ask me). I know it's just my opinion, but spending time with people who doesn't care **** about me isn't on my to-do list. It'll just give you grief.

Secondly, you need to find out what the motivation is behind his behavior. Some players, for example, really needs something to happen at all times or they'll be bored. And when they think of "something happens", they mean something that feels exciting to them. Something that creates drama, action or conflict.

For example, sitting in a long conversation with NPCs listening to clues and whatever.... BORING! Nothing happens (in their mind). And when nothing happens, they'll go and make sure something happens. If this is his motivation, then you need to ask yourself if you can cater to this playstyle, because you need to cut down on the more slow-paced scenes and have more action-driven, fast-paced scenes. Basically, you can't play out the "we go to the temple and talk to the clerics" scene, you just have to say "so you went there and got X information". That'll remove any possibility for the player to mess it up, and also make it less likely he'll be bored in the next scene.

Another motivation could be to simply act out being a douche-bag and feel superior. I kid you not, some people like that. To figure out if that is the case, you can ask what sort of computer games he likes to play (if any) and how he acts in them.

For example, I had a player once who seemed to always play very douche-y characters in my games, and it bothered me to no end. Then I find out he does the exact same thing when he plays computer RPGs, getting a kick out of always picking the "evil" options, if there are any. So I realized that's just his motivation. He WANTS to play evil, jerkbag´characters, as that is his view of power fantasy.

In that case, you also need to ask yourself if you want to cater to that style of play. Perhaps you can find a compromise where you give him plenty of opportunities to play out his superiority jerk-bag tendencies, in exchanging of reigning himself back in other situations that you feel are important. A sort of "give-and-take". Might work, might not.

In any case, figure out if he actually cares about ruining your fun in the first place, then figure out what his motivation is and see if you can reconcile it with your playstyle.

[HappyDaze]

The jackhole wasn't bad in yesterday's game. We all had a whole table conversation and things seem somewhat improved. Of course, we hit a good point for downtime and leveling after just 2.5 hours of play, and then spent the next 1.5 hours abstractly resolving downtime activities, leveling up, and (mainly) shooting the bull. The jackhole is fun to have around out-of-character, I just hope the good behavior sticks going forward.

[Misterwhisper]

I have had those issue many times but One of them that stands out the most was.

In pathfinder, I was playing a Warrior of the Holy Light, Liberator paladin. (I think liberator is right, it was the one that traded smite for lay on hands and defense) No spells, no smites, just A HUGE wall of ac, with massive amounts of healing but total garbage offense and crap skills other than perception. Lawful Good to the core. I was essentially unkillable do to ac, couldn’t be crit and swift action self heal LOH for a ton every turn.

We had another player who played a Zen Archer Monk, took all the nice broken archery feats and was very fast and accurate with a longbow.

Because I really had no offense and my skills were like nothing, he hounded me in character all the time about how he and the rest of the group could just do anything they want and their was nothing I could do about it.
It all started in game like 3, the group was assigned to guard the tomb of the former high priest and his honor guard. This was the high priest of my church also.
The group said: “hey, honor guard are buried with their gear right?” And proceeds to rob the tomb of the High Priest and take the armor and weapons of the honor guard.
I pointed out that umm, no. We are not going to be doing that, we were hired to guard it not rob the high priest of my own church.

The monk just goes: “yes we are, feel free to try and stop me but I will just kill you.”

I think it came up at least once every other session for about a year.

At one point the DM threw me a bone because I stuck with it the whole time, through:
Being arrested by the town guard because they pissed off the leadership, where they left me because it was funny.
Destroyed a keep I was given as part of the main plot.
Attempted to kill my Fiancée because she did not date the incredibly egotistical bard of the group.
And many more threats on my life than I could count simply because they knew I couldn’t kill anything.

As I said the DM threw me a bone, and I found the tomb of my gods last herald. Inside was his old and tarnished shield and long sword. I said a prayer and was told that I should return them to the high temple. (It was my test to see if I would give them to the church or keep them to use on my mission) without a blink I told the group what I found and that I would go to the temple when we came back to town.

To that the group decided to just skip town and go to the further away city in the other direction because, “who care if you found some junk in a cave” to which my God Himself appeared and instead of enchanting the older gear, he made my shield his holy weapon.

I didn’t tell the group what the shield did because at that point they pissed off the dm too. The shield let me smite once per day and gave me an obscure feat that let me blow LOHs to boost the damage of a smite.

In the last huge battle of the whole campaign, when we were level 17, it was our group vs the just resurrected ancient god of madness. The first thing he did was hit the group with a special ability that was a HUGE dc save or go mad. Because of my saves I was the only one to make the save so while everyone else was a jibbering mess on the ground, I shield charged an ancient god, used my one smite, crit x3 because of his nature, and blew 48 lay on hands and ended up doing enough damage to kill him 4 times over.

The DM described it like all the light in the the world gathered together around my shield and exploded like a second sun.

God was dead, everything around us all blasted to glass, and in the end the three holy gods of light appeared and thanked me personally for single handedly killing the god, the group was still on the ground jibbering so they couldn’t argue.

Basically the DM kicked their egos down a notch, and I got credit for all the hard work and RP.

[micahaphone]

Misterwhisper please tell me the post script of this story is that in the next campaign the jerks weren't invited.

[MaxWilson]

So, lots of the consequences that might arise will come up after the PCs return to civilization. However, right now, in the middle of the jungles of Q'barra, he can get probably away with his shenanigans as only the other PCs really have the ability to stand up to him and they don't seem inclined to do so. This part is likely to last 3-4 more sessions, and I don't think I really want to play 3-4 more sessions with this character (and maybe not even with this player) behaving like this before that happens.

Ouch. And if you feel this way, the NPCs probably feel even worse. What happens if they just outright fire him, while appealing to the other PCs to remain and protect them from the abuser's wrath?

Use your special DM power:

"No, you don't."

I reserve this power for special occasions. Mainly to prevent PvP situations, but I'd not hesitate to use it if one of my players turned rogue (get it) or if a player decides he'd do something that I as a person found too abhorrent. Most other posters have already pointed out what you can do in terms of in-universe consequences. But you are not just master of your world, you're also the master of the table.

A lot of people might disagree with me, say that this would be railroading or power abuse. I disagree. You offer your players a game to play, you are responsible for their fun for an entire session. They, in turn, are responsible for keeping you in a good mood so that you keep DMing for them.

Normally I wouldn't recommend this approach but under the circumstances... It might be a reasonable alternative to firing. Hard to say from here.

[HappyDaze]

Ouch. And if you feel this way, the NPCs probably feel even worse. What happens if they just outright fire him, while appealing to the other PCs to remain and protect them from the abuser's wrath?

The PCs are members of an adventurers' guild. They are not the heads of the guild. The hiring NPCs hired the party as a whole and cannot fire a single member. They can (and will) be bringing complaints against the party to the guild should they survive and return to civilization. The guild is likely to censure the party--mainly by fines--but they also exist to back-up and protect adventurers, so the fines are largely slaps on the wrists. The offended party can go to the local authorities, but for actions that happened half a continent away with no obvious lasting harm (in my Eberron, bruises and hurt feelings are unlikely to matter to the legal authorities), that's a dead end. The biggest repercussions likely come from the university no longer directing business to their guild and one of the students (a gnome 'photographer' with connections to a newspaper in Sharn) using his connections to crap all over their reputations.

Some of this may be coming a bit sooner as the party extracted the entire expedition early (a breach of contract) and returned them all to the city of Newthrone. They did this because some of the local tribes of lizardfolk and clans of dragonborn were gearing up for hostile action. Hostile action as a result of the PCs actions causing problems in the area. The PCs cared enough about the employers to get them out of the jungle alive even if their work is spoiled (or at least delayed). Now the expedition waits in town while the PCs get ready to head back into the jungle on their own to "fix things" in their usual bungling and hyper-violent manner.

[Satori01]

So a character that is not a worshiper of the Silver Flame, didn’t show the proper respect that others thought was appropriate and acts in a proactive manner that disrupts the DMs plans.

So sheepele players are good, but self directed characters bad?

Blessed are the meek, as that is what the DM wants!

[HappyDaze]

So a character that is not a worshiper of the Silver Flame, didn’t show the proper respect that others thought was appropriate and acts in a proactive manner that disrupts the DMs plans.

So sheepele players are good, but self directed characters bad?

Blessed are the meek, as that is what the DM wants!

I'm not Jewish IRL, but I don't walk down to a temple and barge in, demand those inside do what I say, and start opening every closed door before me. It's not about disrupting 'my plans' (which I constantly adapt to account for players' choices) it's about a jackhole chaacter/player (I still think it's a bit of both) that just wants to run roughshod across the entire world. It's also not about being meek; it's about not being a bullying jackhole.

[MaxWilson]

So a character that is not a worshiper of the Silver Flame, didn’t show the proper respect that others thought was appropriate and acts in a proactive manner that disrupts the DMs plans.

So sheepele players are good, but self directed characters bad?

Blessed are the meek, as that is what the DM wants!

Trespassing is not a religious transgression per se. It would have been just as rude if he'd done the same thing in a newspaper's headquarters.

In some genres it would be fine (mystery-comedy), and in those genres a huge overreaction would also be fine (death penalty for entering the employees' lounge uninvited), but when the player is acting like he's in a comedy and the DM isn't enforcing comedic consequences because that would hurt the tone of the campaign, you have a problem.

Out of all the solutions I've heard on this thread, the one I like best and will remember for my own use is keeping the spotlight where the interesting stuff is: "okay, you go hide. We'll come back to you later," then afterwards briefly narrate a realistic consequence without spending much table time on it.

In the context of the expedition, since they can't fire the bully specifically, it would have been reasonable for the NPCs to ask the other PCs to deal with the problem by keeping the bully from abusing them (which may mean the bully isn't in social interaction scenes, only dungeon crawling ones). If they can't do that then they all get fired together. Powerful people are used to being respected, not abused, and a socially powerful person is going to react in a social way to threats of physical violence.

[HappyDaze]

In the context of the expedition, since they can't fire the bully specifically, it would have been reasonable for the NPCs to ask the other PCs to deal with the problem by keeping the bully from abusing them (which may mean the bully isn't in social interaction scenes, only dungeon crawling ones). If they can't do that then they all get fired together. Powerful people are used to being respected, not abused, and a socially powerful person is going to react in a social way to threats of physical violence.

Yes, now that the expedition is back in (relative) safety, that can happen. It couldn't really happen when the likely outcome of firing the PCs was that the socially powerful people get abandoned to die in the deep jungle. Well, it could have if the NPCs were suicidal, which they were not.

[GorogIrongut]

Overall after reading the thread, two thoughts came to mind.

1. Life is pretty stressful at the moment. There's a good chance that your friend is having a hard time and doesn't realize it's splashing over into his gameplay. Your friend needs a chance to blow off some steam. It sounds like you guys did that at the end of your most recent session.
Plan a little bit of time to be friends outside of game time and it should smooth out a lot of your problems. Because you guys are friends before dnd buddies.

2. I'm a firm believer in real life consequences solving problems with a party. You said these Npc's are in the middle of nowhere, with no real recourse. Are they completely new to helping adventuring parties? Did no one plan for any kind of communication problems? I highly doubt that any experienced expedition members would have come unprepared. Especially the more grizzled ones.
Just have them be in possession of a previously unknown sending stone. As the DM it's up to you to decide who's on the other end of that sending stone. But seeing as it's a form of insurance, there's a whole host of consequences that could be triggered by those NPC's using a sending stone. Figure out something appropriate and have fun with it.

[Misterwhisper]

Misterwhisper please tell me the post script of this story is that in the next campaign the jerks weren't invited.

I was running the next campaign, many people died from murderhoboing.

Ex. Sure your group of level 3 PCs can kill the 4 guards blocking a gate at night. They were not corrupt or evil guards, just 4 people stopping people from entering a district for shady reasons in the middle of the night.

However, killing 4 guards in the street for just doing their job tends to draw a lot of attention. Guards have families and friends and those people hold grudges and look into things.

The city guard put out a 5g reward for info on the guard killers.
What do you know, people remember seeing someone wearing a very decorative Elven Curved Blade, mainly because they were not an elf. Kind of obvious one was used as the murder weapon.

Was not hard to track them down and when the city guard Captain (level 5 pistolero gunslinger, level 3 grand warden) kicked open their door, they thought they could take him because he was by himself. They did not bother to look outside or they would have seen the other 8 grunt guards with crossbows.

The game took a very tragic turn, in the way of fast moving lead and pointy sticks.

[micahaphone]

At that point, why are you playing with those guys? Sounds like they want comedy fantasy with no repercussions and you/ former DM want in depth role play

[kyoryu]

An example:
...

Wow, so the player is just doing chaos for giggles. That's fine if people are into that kind of game, but you're not into it. Which is also fine.

Also, why is the paladin PC tolerating this? People are basically getting tortured, and the jackhole PC is disrutping their ability to do good.

I think a chat is in order, and definitely it's reasonable that the jackhole and the paladin probably shouldn't be in the same party. Like, why is the paladin tolerating someone that is insulting their church, causing the paladin to pay amends, and then refusing to even help? It sounds like a bit of social contract abuse... the paladin is doing that because of the social contract of "the party stays together", while the jackhole is relying on this contract to shield them from the results of their actions. This is basically abusive.

But the ultimate kicker is this - if you don't want to play in the "bring the chaos" type game, you don't have to. You don't have to run it. You can explain what is unacceptable, and then take appropriate actions if it continues.

[Satori01]

Out of all the solutions I've heard on this thread, the one I like best and will remember for my own use is keeping the spotlight where the interesting stuff is: "okay, you go hide. We'll come back to you later," then afterwards briefly narrate a realistic consequence without spending much table time on it.

I agree, plus the player learns to never split the party.

A Suggestion spell worded so the player takes religious instruction, or better yet as penance for their rudeness the character subjected to a Geas spell, for weekly Bible study is appropriate.

This could curtail Downtime activities for the player, (if your group uses them), seems a reasonable and understanding reaction by a Good aligned martial church, and allows the player to understand actions have consequences. Most importantly this also builds the world, and allows development of Silver Flame NPCs into allies or rivals.

Calling the player a “Jackhole” seems hash.
Yes, the player is high strung, and independent, but it reads as if the player is actively involved in the game. An active player can be worked with.

If you are old enough to have played Dragonlance, the type of player that is being described is called: a Kender.

[MaxWilson]

I agree, plus the player learns to never split the party.

Splitting the party is actually awesome for both DM and players, but only if you know what you're doing and think ahead. For the DM it's an opportunity to improve pacing by cutting back and forth to reduce dead time. For the players it's a chance to get twice as much done and take control of your own spotlight--but not if the DM refuses to make the camera follow you, which never before occurred to me as a way to handle problem players.

If you are old enough to have played Dragonlance, the type of player that is being described is called: a Kender.

The worst thing about kender-type players is when they assume their disruptive activities entitle them to lucky success, despite never earning success, because Tasslehoff.

[dehro]

. The guild is likely to censure the party--mainly by fines--but they also exist to back-up and protect adventurers, so the fines are largely slaps on the wrists.

You can always change the operating rules.. The idea that the guild will do nothing but a slap on the wrist can easily change..
"Normally bad behaviour gets you fined more or less severely, you guys however ( the guild master looks at ******** character) have tarnished our reputation and are costing us a number of jobs. Your lack of professionalism is not tolerated any longer. You're suspended from the guild until further notice and the profits from your latest expedition will be donated in retribution for your sins. Now bugger off until I call for you... And if I catch you taking jobs on the side, I will decorate the guildhall with your entails"
The point being that the guild must also protect its members by protecting itself and its reputation. The party may have just gone too far to excuse them. Drawing an appropriate real world parallel, think about the practice of certain organisations of moving an employee who does something inappropriate from one branch to another to avoid embarrassment until he does something serious enough to land in the papers, at which time they give him the boot and publicly distance themselves.
You are the DM. Nobody is placed better than you to enact policy changes.

[HappyDaze]

You can always change the operating rules.. The idea that the guild will do nothing but a slap on the wrist can easily change..
"Normally bad behaviour gets you fined more or less severely, you guys however ( the guild master looks at ******** character) have tarnished our reputation and are costing us a number of jobs. Your lack of professionalism is not tolerated any longer. You're suspended from the guild until further notice and the profits from your latest expedition will be donated in retribution for your sins. Now bugger off until I call for you... And if I catch you taking jobs on the side, I will decorate the guildhall with your entails"
The point being that the guild must also protect its members by protecting itself and its reputation. The party may have just gone too far to excuse them. Drawing an appropriate real world parallel, think about the practice of certain organisations of moving an employee who does something inappropriate from one branch to another to avoid embarrassment until he does something serious enough to land in the papers, at which time they give him the boot and publicly distance themselves.
You are the DM. Nobody is placed better than you to enact policy changes.

Good advice. I'm still waiting to see just how far the group comes around before they finish their Q'barra mission. Right now, they're headed back into the jungle (sans the expedition, which they are leaving in Newthrone) to fix the mistake they made by invading a tomb/prison and inadvertently releasing some demons. Those demons are now working to free other demons, and the whole thing has the local dragonborn clans on the warpath to stop them. This has caused the lizardfolk that the expedition was trying to study to go into hiding because they fear becoming peripheral casualties of the crusading dragonborn clans. So the PCs really are on the path of reluctant heroism, and this 'blundering into a bigger adventure" is not uncommon for my group (nor was this at all my original plan for bringing them to Q'barra, but I've let their actions steer the story).

[kyoryu]

Before you get to in-game stuff, I'd highly recommend a little sit-down and explaining that while some groups might totally be into the stuff he's doing, you're not and it's inappropriate for this group.

Be specific, and give multiple examples of what could have been done instead.

[AHF]

Have to second a pair of in game throughs and fifth or whatever the notion that talking out of game seems the appropriate step 1.

In game, the stone sending or a colleague reaching out to one of the NPCs (maybe a wizard’s daughter is dying, hires the colleague to help solve and magically connects the colleague to the NPC needing his expertise to solve the issue and now you have a desperate and powerful outlet to complain). Any number of “phone a friend” solutions you could manifest.

Likewise, the guild harshly punishing this behavior seems very real world to me. A group may staunchly protect its members against frivolous claims or something in a gray area but if a member abuses a patient or customer then they will react strongly to protect their own reputation. Any legal limits on reprisals will only exist as long as they have the leverage to maintain it and inexcusable abuse is probably the quickest way to lose that edge and hurt all the members.

Either one of these could be combined with a warning to the other party members that consequences are coming - the Paladin stands out as a natural source for getting a very direct message from the abused NPCs if he is too dense to perceive their unhappiness on his own. Whether you want to put your players in a box where their interests aren’t aligned is a much subjective call based on your table dynamics.

Tons of in game options but out of game conversation has the best chance of lasting success.

[WaroftheCrans]

Just for this situation, you have a nice big stronk Warforged tempest cleric (What i've gathered). He's a total tool, and tries to bully NPC's from the university of Morgrave, as they're in the jungle, trying to fix a problem that he's responsible for. Someone before mentioned sleeping pills, but ofc Warforged can't be forced to sleep. Poison wouldn't be such a great idea either, its just disadvantage, and treated easily. Additionally, Warforged are resistant to poison (Not immune as the player seems to think). Paralysis, on the other hand...

The issue of where to get this from is easy. You don't look for a readily marketed paralysis pill, I doubt that even exists. No, you're in a jungle. Think of the Amazon Rainforest, and blowguns. You have your learned NPC's pick up a few herbs from the jungle and perhaps frog poison, and put all the guards to sleep (in their food), paralyze the warforged (Blowguns from several angles), tie him up and toss him in a lake. It won't kill him, but it will be a hell of an inconvenience, and an unpleasant experience with wildlife.
He's a good tactical thinker, make it an attrition scenario till he can return to the camp. He has to conserve his resources, and wildlife harasses him constantly so he can't rest. In character, he'll be pissed, out of character he might enjoy the experience, and also recognize that consequences are a thing.
Or just tie him up and set him in the camp, if you feel tossing him away is a bit too far.

As to how you do this in a good story telling manner: have him make perception checks every now and then, when the NPC's are collecting the herbs. If he succeeds (probable, its a damn cleric), he sees that they're collecting herbs for something, but he knows neither the nature of them or the purpose. If he decides to question them, they lie. If he can tell that they're lying, good for him, it won't help him too much. If he tries to interrogate them, and bully them, that's when they strike, using his actions as the excuse.

In addition no reason to think that the SF doesn't have contact with whatever his religion is, and can get him excommunicated or smth.

I realize that my solutions don't solve the general problem, but I think they're decent options for right now.

[HappyDaze]

Just for this situation, you have a nice big stronk Warforged tempest cleric (What i've gathered). He's a total tool, and tries to bully NPC's from the university of Morgrave, as they're in the jungle, trying to fix a problem that he's responsible for. Someone before mentioned sleeping pills, but ofc Warforged can't be forced to sleep. Poison wouldn't be such a great idea either, its just disadvantage, and treated easily. Additionally, Warforged are resistant to poison (Not immune as the player seems to think). Paralysis, on the other hand...

The issue of where to get this from is easy. You don't look for a readily marketed paralysis pill, I doubt that even exists. No, you're in a jungle. Think of the Amazon Rainforest, and blowguns. You have your learned NPC's pick up a few herbs from the jungle and perhaps frog poison, and put all the guards to sleep (in their food), paralyze the warforged (Blowguns from several angles), tie him up and toss him in a lake. It won't kill him, but it will be a hell of an inconvenience, and an unpleasant experience with wildlife.
He's a good tactical thinker, make it an attrition scenario till he can return to the camp. He has to conserve his resources, and wildlife harasses him constantly so he can't rest. In character, he'll be pissed, out of character he might enjoy the experience, and also recognize that consequences are a thing.
Or just tie him up and set him in the camp, if you feel tossing him away is a bit too far.

As to how you do this in a good story telling manner: have him make perception checks every now and then, when the NPC's are collecting the herbs. If he succeeds (probable, its a damn cleric), he sees that they're collecting herbs for something, but he knows neither the nature of them or the purpose. If he decides to question them, they lie. If he can tell that they're lying, good for him, it won't help him too much. If he tries to interrogate them, and bully them, that's when they strike, using his actions as the excuse.

In addition no reason to think that the SF doesn't have contact with whatever his religion is, and can get him excommunicated or smth.

I realize that my solutions don't solve the general problem, but I think they're decent options for right now.

Your "solution" would just give him an excuse to murder the professors and students. These are commoners with above average Int scores and proficiency in one or more of Arcana, History, Nature, Religion. They have crap chance of using a blowgun (they don't have proficiency in martial weapons) even if they could get the poison, and the cleric is AC 20 before he casts any spells, so their chances of hitting him are terrible. OTOH, he could easily murder one or more per turn, and if they attack him first, at least one of the other PCs is likely to let them die.

[WaroftheCrans]

Your "solution" would just give him an excuse to murder the professors and students. These are commoners with above average Int scores and proficiency in one or more of Arcana, History, Nature, Religion. They have crap chance of using a blowgun (they don't have proficiency in martial weapons) even if they could get the poison, and the cleric is AC 20 before he casts any spells, so their chances of hitting him are terrible. OTOH, he could easily murder one or more per turn, and if they attack him first, at least one of the other PCs is likely to let them die.

I was hoping these were indispensable NPC's, and my original idea was to poison his food, but then I remembered that Warforged don't need to eat...

Still, there are other means that they could get back at him, and the idea is for them not to be the first to attack, but rather to retaliate after he does something to them or to subtly get the paralytic into his system. Blowguns was simply the traditional manner of delivering the paralytic agent IRL, but in game, throwing a dart, using a dagger or some creative non-combat mean (asking him to smell a flower/herb that induces it ala "Does this smell like chloroform to you?") could work. With a +4 to hit, and a friend flanking/using the help action, he has a 50% chance of being decommissioned first round.

Also, if he's at the stage where he'd outright murder people who are his benefactors for retaliating to his perpetual abuse, and he only cares about the treasure/exp, this isn't about comedy/being funny, its just straight up murderhobo-ing.

In which case I don't blame you for flat out ignoring solution #2, since he won't care unless that results in his powers being stripped as well. So solution #3, he doesn't get paid by anyone, gets prosecuted by court system and the treasure payout is from the benefactors, and not the dungeon. If he decides to only care about exp now, jail time preventing him from adventuring might be an option. Of course, you should really have a talk with him about his murderhobo tendencies, which seem to only be kept in check by the other party members.

[HappyDaze]

I was hoping these were indispensable NPC's, and my original idea was to poison his food, but then I remembered that Warforged don't need to eat...

Still, there are other means that they could get back at him, and the idea is for them not to be the first to attack, but rather to retaliate after he does something to them or to subtly get the paralytic into his system. Blowguns was simply the traditional manner of delivering the paralytic agent IRL, but in game, throwing a dart, using a dagger or some creative non-combat mean (asking him to smell a flower/herb that induces it ala "Does this smell like chloroform to you?") could work. With a +4 to hit, and a friend flanking/using the help action, he has a 50% chance of being decommissioned first round.

Also, if he's at the stage where he'd murder people who are his benefactors for retaliating to his abuse, and he only cares about the treasure/exp, this isn't about comedy, its just straight murderhobo-ing.

Not sure where you get the 50% thing, because D&D rarely works like that anymore. Besides, this is a guy with really high Insight and Perception, and these NPCs are hardly masters of Deception or Slight of Hand.

As for the murder-hobo bit, he's a bully that has no problem with backing up his bark with a lethal bite. If the other people back down, he refrains from violence, but any resistance and he escalates. Think of a terrible, crooked cop and you're not far off.

[HappyDaze]

In which case I don't blame you for flat out ignoring solution #2, since he won't care unless that results in his powers being stripped as well. So solution #3, he doesn't get paid by anyone, gets prosecuted by court system and the treasure payout is from the benefactors, and not the dungeon. If he decides to only care about exp now, jail time preventing him from adventuring might be an option. Of course, you should really have a talk with him about his murderhobo tendencies, which seem to only be kept in check by the other party members.

This is Eberron. Powers don't get stripped. There are evil-doers in the Church of the Silver Flame burning good people with holy fire.

The character is a cleric following the Devourer (yeah, that was a red flag, but he made the character sound interesting when he pitched it as "the Silver Surfer looking to feed the unworthy to Galactus while sheltering the worthy from harm"). He's not part of an organized religion.

There's no court system in the middle of the jungle, and the legal system of their home nation doesn't really apply. Thankfully, the group got the NPCs out of the jungle last session. The PCs went back into the jungle and expect their NPCs to back in town when they return. That's not what's likely to happen--the NPCs are going to hire new help and go off in a different direction to complete their research. Nobody is likely to get paid, and the guild will demand repayment of the 25% that they were given up front. Of course, compared to the treasure that the PCs are bringing in, that's really not that big of a loss. Again though, the other PCs are going to suffer for one member's bad behavior. OTOH, they do owe their lives to his assistance in battle several times over, so they tend to put up with him.

[WaroftheCrans]

Not sure where you get the 50% thing, because D&D rarely works like that anymore. Besides, this is a guy with really high Insight and Perception, and these NPCs are hardly masters of Deception or Slight of Hand.

As for the murder-hobo bit, he's a bully that has no problem with backing up his bark with a lethal bite. If the other people back down, he refrains from violence, but any resistance and he escalates. Think of a terrible, crooked cop and you're not far off.

First, I added a statement onto my first post that I meant to add in originally. Second: Math part. Rolling 11 or higher on the d20 has a 50% chance of happening. With advantage, you have a 51% chance of rolling a 15 or higher, and a 44% chance of rolling a 16 or higher. Depending on whether its a +4 or +5 to hit, there's your 44%-51% of hitting. If you have more than 2 NPC's, it only goes up. If they hit him when he's not actively wearing a shield, it's also better.

To add on to the options, a snare trap or some other trap can also work. You're dealing with intelligent and educated NPC's, who are at their wit's ends, and tired of the abuse.

High Perception and Insight are addressed in the first one. If he can tell that they're gathering herbs, good for him. If he chooses to interrogate them about it, and can see they're lying, he doesn't automatically discern the truth. If they say they're making tea with these herbs, and he knows its a lie, he might assume that these herbs have value, or some other reason. Forcible interrogation methods would give the NPC's an excuse.

As for the other PC's, some of the other commenters have that covered. The NPC's have surely besought their aid at least once, and if they refused, perhaps it's time for a special NPC to come up, like the bard's father/love interest/long lost child, or a deep believer of the paladin's faith.

You're being offered solutions, and only pointing out their flaws. It's really rather defeatist of you. Instead, point out their flaws, note their strengths, and continue the brainstorming process until you have a refined idea.

[WaroftheCrans]

This is Eberron. Powers don't get stripped. There are evil-doers in the Church of the Silver Flame burning good people with holy fire.

The character is a cleric following the Devourer (yeah, that was a red flag, but he made the character sound interesting when he pitched it as "the Silver Surfer looking to feed the unworthy to Galactus while sheltering the worthy from harm"). He's not part of an organized religion.

There's no court system in the middle of the jungle, and the legal system of their home nation doesn't really apply. Thankfully, the group got the NPCs out of the jungle last session. The PCs went back into the jungle and expect their NPCs to back in town when they return. That's not what's likely to happen--the NPCs are going to hire new help and go off in a different direction to complete their research. Nobody is likely to get paid, and the guild will demand repayment of the 25% that they were given up front. Of course, compared to the treasure that the PCs are bringing in, that's really not that big of a loss. Again though, the other PCs are going to suffer for one member's bad behavior. OTOH, they do owe their lives to his assistance in battle several times over, so they tend to put up with him.

Sorry, haven't played a ton in Eberron. Evidently the little fiasco with the NPC's in the jungle is over, but that idea/plot can apply later. So too can the other ideas.

Right now the law has no hold over them? Well, later it might. Right now there's a large treasure payout from the dungeon? Later, the payout might be from the guild, and the dungeon is lacking.

It does seem as thought there needs to be an OoC conversation between all of you about how this is going.

Also, sorry about this forum ping pong, where we respond in a disjointed way. I hope I'm not missing yet another replay of yours.

PS. In the future it can't hurt to give the NPC's a little teeth. Who knows, the professor of anthropology might've been a great javelin thrower back in his college days. That being said, I don't usually sanction making things up retroactively without notifying players, so emphasis on in the future.

[HappyDaze]

You're being offered solutions, and only pointing out their flaws. It's really rather defeatist of you. Instead, point out their flaws, note their strengths, and continue the brainstorming process until you have a refined idea.

I quite like several people's ideas. However, I find no value in your idea that these NPCs could physically stand up to the jackhole. They are intelligent and knowledgeable, but not masters of low cunning. They also don't really have the ability to go off into the dangerous jungle on their own to gather crap without risking their deaths. You suggest that if the jackhole acts aggressively it gives them an excuse... for what? They are rightfully afraid of him. He is also canny enough to split them and play them against one another (he's already done it with the NPC guards). Many of these NPCs would turn in someone that they discovered was trying to take action against him because they fear that he will kill them all in retaliation...and they are not wrong.

[WaroftheCrans]

More and more the PC seems to be a downright sociopath. Seriously, constantly manipulating others, having no regard for consequences, instilling fear, bullying constantly, using intelligence for sadistic purposes, and looking for any excuse to dole out violence. If I had to give it an alignment, it's NE. No regard for laws, but is kept in check by expectations from others, still using every excuse to do wrong.

If that's the character, kudo's to the player for building a convincingly and repulsively evil character. Otherwise, its pretty messed up, and might be a problem with the player.

I'd also be willing to bet that the other PC's wouldn't tolerate it if they had either a suitable replacement (different character) or didn't expect consequences in a separate game.

Out of Character conversations seem to be a good idea, but in game you do have plenty of options as the DM. Good Luck, and all the best. Here's to hoping this works out without messing with any friendships.

Edit: Was never suggesting they "physically" stand up to him, if any initiative was rolled in my idea, it would be at most 1 round. High amounts of cunning are also not needed. As for them being terrified and turning on each other, that's your choice. In my view, people tend to stick together and not report on each other. Historically, this seems to hold up for the most part.

I find it significant that in this entire thread, he's only ever referred to as "jackhole" by you. I think that you recognize just how much of an issue this character is, and its not just an inordinate bias of yours.