Conjure animal stuffs

[Dmdork]

Can wolves dodge? The Druid in my game is dominating with this spell. I'm glad but I was wondering if animals can do this. Yeah they can protect themselves, by attacking and being quick and stuff. But to mindfully spend those moments doing nothing but defending, therefore giving yourself disadvantage on attacks against you? Am I going too deep with this?

[sithlordnergal]

Yes, Dodge is an action any creature can take whenever they're in combat. Heck, even undead Zombies or Oozes can take the Dodge action if they want.

EDIT: Also, considering that one of the versions of the Beast Master's beast automatically takes the Dodge action whenever they're not given an order is enough to know that Beasts can dodge.

[sambojin]

Yes. Any creature can Dash, Disengage, Dodge, use the Help action, Hide, or Search. Wolves might be able to "Use an Object", but it depends on the object and the DM. They can also "Ready an Action". Then they get the actions listed in their action block, or can use an unarmed attack as their action if they really want to.

No. You're only going too far if you try and summon different animal types, your DM allows you to, and you setup amazing cascades of events by utilizing Ready an Action alongside other proning or restraining attacks. Then you're over thinking it.

[Dmdork]

Thanks guys. I'll say yes to all that. No on wolves readying though, as the player will almost certainly go down that min max road..

[Tanarii]

Nothing in the spell description says the player controls the animals actions directly. They just give verbal orders. You are free to control them.

Or you're free to let the player do it. But beware many players like to play them as tactical masters.

If you want to nip that in the bud but not control the animals yourself, make them state their order in 6 second or less. Note also that speaking technically must happen on the PCs turn. Then let them control the animal within the scope of the stated order on the conjured animals next turn. After a few discussions on this spell, I tried this out, and the player having to state the order out loud is usually enough for them to get in the right mindset, I found it didn't really require enforcement.

[sithlordnergal]

Thanks guys. I'll say yes to all that. No on wolves readying though, as the player will almost certainly go down that min max road..

Let me ask you this, would you allow an NPC necromancer to have a Zombie ready an action? If yes, then the players should be able to have wolves ready an action. Especially since wolves are pack hunters, and tend to do that sort of thing while hunting together.

[MaxWilson]

There are even some Beasts in Rising From the Last War that can Dodge as a bonus action (Fastieth, recharge 5-6).

[Dmdork]

I would say no to zombie ready, unless it were a special case. Wolves kinda do the ready when they use pack tactics. Hell, how about when caster and summon can commicate telepathically, or summon is intelligent? I'm just gonna on case by case basis. Just don't want the readys of these wolves to bog down my game.....

[MarkVIIIMarc]

Can wolves dodge? The Druid in my game is dominating with this spell. I'm glad but I was wondering if animals can do this. Yeah they can protect themselves, by attacking and being quick and stuff. But to mindfully spend those moments doing nothing but defending, therefore giving yourself disadvantage on attacks against you? Am I going too deep with this?

Let the Druid have their moment. Warlocks get EB all day long, Wizards get Fireball and some can be careful with it.

To counter it have a semi intelligent foe break the Druid's concentration occasionally.

Wait until your Bard realizes the interaction betwern Dissonant Whispers and and enemy surrounded by wolves :)

[LudicSavant]

Can wolves dodge? The Druid in my game is dominating with this spell. I'm glad but I was wondering if animals can do this. Yeah they can protect themselves, by attacking and being quick and stuff. But to mindfully spend those moments doing nothing but defending, therefore giving yourself disadvantage on attacks against you? Am I going too deep with this?

Dodge is an action that any creature can take.

[LudicSavant]

Thanks guys. I'll say yes to all that. No on wolves readying though, as the player will almost certainly go down that min max road..

Conjure Animals is a spell I consider to be problematically designed.

As is, the balance limit is that the DM chooses what creatures you get, not the player (you don't even choose the CR, just the CR cap). So they can be creatures as useful or as useless as the DM likes (a truly cruel DM could even just give you suffocating seahorses). The trouble with this method is that I feel it makes the spell unsatisfying to use. The lack of player agency in the outcome means that players feel less a sense of accomplishment when they win, and more of a sense of being screwed by DM fiat when they lose. Not to mention that a lot of summoners just want to shout "X, I CHOOSE YOU!"

In addition to this, the spell is designed so that there's basically no reason to ever choose an option other than the highest number of creatures, which is not only an issue for action economy but also can slow down the game with a sudden glut of creatures.

Personally, I feel like taking away actions like Ready and Dodge would only serve to further impinge on player agency with the spell.

The solution I am experimenting with in my latest campaign is that players get to choose the creatures, but it's 1/2/3/4 summons instead of 1/2/4/8. But I would not implement any nerfs without having the player on board with it too (generally speaking, the best time to implement house rules is before the campaign starts, but if you feel a change is necessary after, talk things over with the players).

[greenstone]

Conjure Animals is a spell I consider to be problematically designed.

Agreed.

I have toned it down by making a couple of restrictions.

First, all the summons obey the same order. The caster can't order wolves 1 and 2 to attack the ogre, wolf 3 to attack the hobgoblin, wolves 4 and 5 to defencd the sorcerer, and so on. Why? Simply to speed up play at the table.

Second, all summoned creatures, applies, familars, pets and so on use average damage. Again, less dice means faster play at the table.

I like the idea from this thread of the caster giving the order on their turn, and the animals following it on their turns regardless of things that have changed.

[MaxWilson]

In addition to this, the spell is designed so that there's basically no reason to ever choose an option other than the highest number of creatures, which is not only an issue for action economy but also can slow down the game with a sudden glut of creatures.

IMO this isn't true. If you're up against monsters that throw lots of AoEs you run into the rock-scissors-paper effect:

AoE beats mobs
Mobs beat solos
Solos beat AoEs

I feel that whoever designed Conjure Animals maybe expected DMs to be using lots of Flameskulls, Winter Wolves, Young White Dragons, etc. Certainly if you knew you were about to go up against a room full of (ground-bound) Young [whatever] Dragons you'd have ample reason to summon as many CR 2 Giant Constrictor Snakes as you could instead of summoning CR 1/4 wolves/velociraptors/roethes.

[LudicSavant]

IMO this isn't true. If you're up against monsters that throw lots of AoEs you run into the rock-scissors-paper effect:

AoE beats mobs
Mobs beat solos
Solos beat AoEs

I feel that whoever designed Conjure Animals maybe expected DMs to be using lots of Flameskulls, Winter Wolves, Young White Dragons, etc. Certainly if you knew you were about to go up against a room full of (ground-bound) Young [whatever] Dragons you'd have ample reason to summon as many CR 2 Giant Constrictor Snakes as you could instead of summoning CR 1/4 wolves/velociraptors/roethes.

Perhaps it would have been better to say "rarely a reason." But even if you're in a situation where you would want a CR2 giant constrictor snake, it's not like you know you'll get one.

One of the problems I have with the spell is that your only agency is to choose the number of creatures and CR cap (not actually CR). You don't know for sure that you won't just get a single wolf anyways.

A lot of people don't run it that way (IMHO with good reason), but... the fact that everyone's not using that rule kind of just reinforces the point that said rule is unattractive.

[MaxWilson]

Perhaps it would have been better to say "rarely a reason." But even if you're in a situation where you would want a CR2 giant constrictor snake, it's not like you know you'll get one.

Well, maybe. You don't know from the Internet that you'll get one, but the basic gameplay loop of 5E is "DM describes scenario, player declares intended action, DM asks clarifying questions, provides infuriating, asks for die rolls and/or just describes what happens."

So there's absolutely nothing stopping you, at any table, from declaring an intention to summon [specific kinds of creatures]. The DM is well within their rights to say, "You're not sure how to do that," but good DMs don't just leave it at that, they suggest a course of action like "maybe if you knew more about fey spirits you could influence them... The elves in Aerendil might be able to tell you more." If the DM doesn't offer this information, try asking questions instead. "I've been able to cast this spell for weeks now. Surely I've experimented. Have I noticed any patterns in what appears? Does it matter where I am when I cast it? Does it matter what I say or think or do before casting?"

If necessary, experiment during play. "I cast Conjure Animals while facing my giant snakeskin and screaming 'Here snakey snakey snakey!'" (Maybe you'll get a giant mongoose but you might get a snake too. DMs are humans too and have a sense of humor.)

My point: you don't know that you don't ever know you'll get one. Sometimes you might.

Anyway, even if you get Polar Bears instead they'll probably last longer against AoEs than CR 1/4 creatures will.