If the Order fails and the world is destroyed, what happens to the Blood Oath?

[Fyraltari]

I’ve read a lot of Conan stories, and I can definitively say that the primitive barbarians of Northern Hyboria are the greatest hand to hand combatants in the history of the universe.

Even the two greatest astronauts of all time, Charlton Heston and Captain Kirk, would be no match against Conan.

They have nothing to do with cavemen, though.

[Peelee]

They have nothing to do with cavemen, though.

Depends. Did they live in caves?

[Dion]

They have nothing to do with cavemen, though.

I’ll concede that point. But what if we took the most famous caveman of all time, Rachel Welch from One Million Years BC, against the most famous astronaut of all time, Captain James T Kirk of the Starship Enterprise.

What do you suppose is going to happen in a head to head matchup?

[Fyraltari]

Depends. Did they live in caves?

No, they didn't.

I’ll concede that point. But what if we took the most famous caveman of all time, Rachel Welch from One Million Years BC, against the most famous astronaut of all time, Captain James T Kirk of the Starship Enterprise.

What do you suppose is going to happen in a head to head matchup?

Well given that I don't know who the former is and only have a passing knowledge of the slatter I'm going to say... poker night?

[hungrycrow]

Heh, archeological evidence suggests that it varied a lot from individual culture to indidividual culture, some had little to zero human violence as cause of death while some had so many it looks borderline genocidal.

True, but massacring a rival tribe was probably a singular event. Would any particular caveman get into enough fights with other cavemen to actually become good at fighting?

[Fyraltari]

True, but massacring a rival tribe was probably a singular event. Would any particular caveman get into enough fights with other cavemen to actually become good at fighting?

Well, current apes (which is the closest equivalent we have for Homo sapiens ancestors) often get into fights. Agrarian Homo sapiens often get into fights. We have evidence of warfare between pre-agrarien Homo sapiens tribes. So it seems to me that yes, there were fighters among the cavemen as there have been among every single Homo sapiens society ever.

[hungrycrow]

Well, current apes (which is the closest equivalent we have for Homo sapiens ancestors) often get into fights. Agrarian Homo sapiens often get into fights. We have evidence of warfare between pre-agrarien Homo sapiens tribes. So it seems to me that yes, there were fighters among the cavemen as there have been among every single Homo sapiens society ever.

That's a good comparison. You're probably right.

[Dion]

That's a good comparison. You're probably right.

Are we talking about a Hollywood caveman against a Hollywood astronaut?

Or are we talking about the toughest real caveman against the toughest real astronaut?

Or are we talking about an average caveman against an average astronaut?

I’m trying to figure out if we’re imagining 6’3” Charlton Heston, 5’ 9” John Glenn, or a 5’ 4” marine biologist in this hypothetical fight.

[Necris Omega]

Four words.

"Rocks fall, everyone dies."

Only if the Gods are written by Obsidian Entertainment.

[Snails]

Well, to answer the last question first, we know the blood oath wouldn't have kept Roy out, so there's no reason it should keep Julia from the appropriate afterlife for her, either.

I am not convinced the Oath automatically keeps anyone out, including Eugene. Eugene's understanding does not necessarily have to be true. The Deva is not obligated to correct misconceptions. Eugene's attitude about how this plays out might be relevant evidence about Eugene's character and/or a useful learning experience to become more worthy.

Roy's attempt to fulfill the Oath is a great positive to his credit in the Deva's eyes. If Roy took another Lawful path in life, he might get in just fine. The evidence of his behavior and attitude towards the Oath is important because Roy's case is not clear cut -- he uses Chaotic means to fulfill Lawful ends, plus he has a nasty streak. Roy is a good candidate for the Celestial Mountain overall, but the Deva must assess the weaknesses of his case, too.

Eugene has all the issues of Roy, only ten-fold so. His attitude towards the Oath is important, because he also seems to be a Chaotic ends to Lawful means kind of guy. If he had dropped his Oath for some astoundingly Lawful and Good cause, I suspect the Deva might simply allow him directly in. Of course, Eugene would have to grow past his personal flaws revealed by his attitude towards the Oath, or he will just never progress up the Mountain (and, perhaps, his soul would be better off somewhere else).

There is also a Catch-22 here: any soul who failed in such a manner but is actually worthy of entrance, such a soul would refuse entry until at least his son played out his own attempt. In other words, as long as Roy is in the game, Eugene has to be believe it is correct that he is prevented from entering Celestia, or that is evidence against. The Deva is not in the tempting business, so she is not going to play mind games here. Honestly, Eugene does himself no credit with his behavior during his afterlife, but his ultimate fate will probably be determined by his life as a whole. Eventually.

[Fyraltari]

If the Oath isn’t blocking Eugene from the afterlife and the Deva won’t let him in then why wasn’t he sent to another afterlife like Roy could have been?

[Dion]

If the Oath isn’t blocking Eugene from the afterlife and the Deva won’t let him in then why wasn’t he sent to another afterlife like Roy could have been?

You know how some bureaucracy seems to start out well intentioned but then slowly turns into a convoluted and serpentine mess after 20 years?

Maybe they’ve had a few billions of years to build up the bureaucracy and it’s just kind of messed up?

[Peelee]

You know how some bureaucracy seems to start out well intentioned but then slowly turns into a convoluted and serpentine mess after 20 years?

Maybe they’ve had a few billions of years to build up the bureaucracy and it’s just kind of messed up?

IIRC, all beings but the gods get their memories wiped on Snarlification, so it stands to reason they should believe they are first-worlders, and have only been around for a few thousand.

[hungrycrow]

Letting Eugene stew outside instead of sending him on gives him the chance to think about his mistakes and try to rectify them. Of course Eugene will never do that, but Lawful Good Outsiders probably feel obligated to give him the opportunity anyhow.