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  1. - Top - End - #1
    Ettin in the Playground
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    Default If the Order fails and the world is destroyed, what happens to the Blood Oath?

    In strip 1047, Eugene tells Roy, should the gods destroy the world, it will also kill Xykon and fulfill the Blood Oath. Roy seemingly agrees with that assumption on the next page (while disagreeing with Eugene on the appropriate response), although it is possible Roy doesn't actually believe it and is just saying what he thinks will convince Eugene to leave him alone.

    Later, however, both Hilgya and Durkon seemingly believe that Hilgya could escape the end of the world by Plane Shifting.

    It's possible none of those characters actually know whether they could survive the end of the world, since they don't know how long it takes the gods to destroy the world, nor do they know if there will be any obvious signs that they should leave immediately.

    Since Xykon presumably has access to more magic than Hilgya, could he escape the world's destruction by hiding in his Astral Plane fortress? If so, it seems likely Eugene could end up stuck on the clouds for a long time.

    And what about Julia? She isn't directly fighting Xykon the way Roy is, but she is offering what little help she can to the Order. Do y'all think she'd get in, or would she be stuck like her father?

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    Default Re: If the Order fails and the world is destroyed, what happens to the Blood Oath?

    Well, to answer the last question first, we know the blood oath wouldn't have kept Roy out, so there's no reason it should keep Julia from the appropriate afterlife for her, either.

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    Default Re: If the Order fails and the world is destroyed, what happens to the Blood Oath?

    Quote Originally Posted by dps View Post
    Well, to answer the last question first, we know the blood oath wouldn't have kept Roy out, so there's no reason it should keep Julia from the appropriate afterlife for her, either.
    It didnít keep Roy out because Roy died trying to fulfill the Blood Oath. Julia may or may not be treated as trying to do so, depending on whether sheís able to persuasively argue that giving Roy advice and learning magic counts as ďtrying.Ē (Also, the True Neutral afterlife may not be as strict as the Lawful Good one.)

    Unless Iím remembering wrong, itís also possible that the Blood Oath is only binding on the ďnext in lineĒ in the family, and that Julia isnít currently being bound by it. Eugene does tell Roy in the afterlife that now that he is dead, the Oath ďwill pass to Julia.Ē
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    Default Re: If the Order fails and the world is destroyed, what happens to the Blood Oath?

    Quote Originally Posted by Emanick View Post
    It didnít keep Roy out because Roy died trying to fulfill the Blood Oath.
    Not quite. The fact Roy died trying to fullfil the Oath helped him because it was a Lawful act, the Deva was just judging if he was Lawful and Good. The implication from the whole conversation seems to be that the Oath is only really keeping Eugene himself from getting to the Afterlife. Any of his descendants that refuse the Oath may be refused in a Lawful plane (assuming they haven't done enough Lawful acts to make this one thing irrelevant, Roy's case was kind of a mess in respects to this), but they aren't being kept out from the Afterlife in general, they may just be knocked to a Neutral or Chaotic plane instead. Which, in Julia's case, wouldn't really make much of a difference, since she's self-proclaimed True Neutral anyways.

    Roy and Eugene both think the Oath will bind Roy as well, but in truth, it really doesn't, and the Deva promptly shuts Eugene down when he tries to say it should.
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    Default Re: If the Order fails and the world is destroyed, what happens to the Blood Oath?

    I figure that after the world has ended a decent god would tie up all loose ends. Yes, Xykon could escape to his fortress and stay alive there for a few more thousand years, but he is not going to make it through the ages upon ages it will take the Snarl to calm down. He may not technically need anything that can run out to survive, but I suspect in the end even the magic that keeps him alive eventually fails after the world is came from has disappeared. Plus he's made of strands of reality, which the gods are going to reweave. If creatures could easily survive until the next world there'd be more characters who don't fit the stick figure fantasy parody mold that is specifically this world's theme. It would also be pretty unreasonable to, under these circumstances, expect anyone to go have some children to go adventure and destroy Xykon, with the whole world not being there anymore and the gods needing to conserve power and such. The same goes for pretty much any other quest oathspirits might have outstanding.

    More importantly, most oathspirits will have no descendants left standing. Maybe if say Hilgya's father is an oathspirit wanting her to kill Xykon and both she and Xykon do indeed make it to the astral plane while still counting as alive/not completely dead, that might be a reason to wait. But assuming all heirs are dead? It's a closed case, one way or another. So, the reasonable thing to do is to just process final judgement on those closed cases. Julia never really got a chance to fix the oath, that was still Roy's job. Odds are she gets the benefit of the doubt and just gets her deserved true neutral afterlife. Eugene? Well, I don't know. He might get in, he might be cast into oblivion, he might end up in some super weird afterlife for cases like his, sort of an endless plane of not belonging. But there's no sense in letting him wait around until one of his heirs fixes everything, because there are no more heirs and in the grand scheme of things there will soon be nothing left to fix.
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    Default Re: If the Order fails and the world is destroyed, what happens to the Blood Oath?

    Quote Originally Posted by Roland Itiative View Post
    Not quite. The fact Roy died trying to fullfil the Oath helped him because it was a Lawful act, the Deva was just judging if he was Lawful and Good. The implication from the whole conversation seems to be that the Oath is only really keeping Eugene himself from getting to the Afterlife.
    https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0491.html

    IMO she doesn't directly contradict "Now, I know the oath binds my kids too."


    And, as written, the Oath wasn't about keeping Lawful people making it out of the afterlife - it was about keeping people in general who make it and don't fulfil it, out of the afterlife. The point is that the person "will not rest until the oath is fulfilled".

    I'd speculate that if Eugene had died trying and failing to fulfil it, he'd have gotten in to whatever afterlife he chose despite the failure.



    If Eugene had been Chaotic, and acted exactly the same way, the guardians of the relevant Chaotic afterlife would have refused to let him in - and would have let him in if he'd "died trying".
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    Default Re: If the Order fails and the world is destroyed, what happens to the Blood Oath?

    Quote Originally Posted by hamishspence View Post
    If Eugene had been Chaotic, and acted exactly the same way, the guardians of the relevant Chaotic afterlife would have refused to let him in - and would have let him in if he'd "died trying".
    I'd disagree. The Chaotic afterlife should refuse entry on the grounds of "taking a binding oath of revenge? Doesn't seem chaotic to us. Have you tried Lawful?". IMO.

    Not actually following through might well be a point in favour of. "You took a silly oath you upheld for awhile, but then realsied it was daft and did something more productive? Sounds chaotic to us. In you go Sir!".


    Ultimately, how much of what we see around is actually part of "creation"? I'm not convinced anything off the material plane will survive the unmaking whether you are present or not. The elemental planes etc, only make sense if "creation" is a self-aware fantasy parody. Hence I suspect even the astral palne is on the chopppig block if the threads of reality are unwound.

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    Default Re: If the Order fails and the world is destroyed, what happens to the Blood Oath?

    Quote Originally Posted by snowblizz View Post
    I'd disagree. The Chaotic afterlife should refuse entry on the grounds of "taking a binding oath of revenge? Doesn't seem chaotic to us. Have you tried Lawful?". IMO.

    Not actually following through might well be a point in favour of. "You took a silly oath you upheld for awhile, but then realsied it was daft and did something more productive? Sounds chaotic to us. In you go Sir!".


    Ultimately, how much of what we see around is actually part of "creation"? I'm not convinced anything off the material plane will survive the unmaking whether you are present or not. The elemental planes etc, only make sense if "creation" is a self-aware fantasy parody. Hence I suspect even the astral palne is on the chopppig block if the threads of reality are unwound.
    But the Blood Oath is not a silly oath. Itís a magic oath, a geas. Thatís like saying that if Eugene was soul-trapped he could still go to a chaotic afterlife because it would be lawful to comply with the interdiction of the spell.

    Also we know for a fact that the Astral Plane is safe because thatís where the gods go hide whenever the Snarl goes a-roaming. Also the Giant confirmed the Snarl is incapable of planar travel under its own power which is why it is trapped inside its prison in the first place.
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    the Vector Legion [is the IFCC's new pawns], mark my words. Way too much unfinished business there and they already know about the Gates.
    I'll take that bet.

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    Default Re: If the Order fails and the world is destroyed, what happens to the Blood Oath?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    But the Blood Oath is not a silly oath. Itís a magic oath, a geas. Thatís like saying that if Eugene was soul-trapped he could still go to a chaotic afterlife because it would be lawful to comply with the interdiction of the spell.
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    Default Re: If the Order fails and the world is destroyed, what happens to the Blood Oath?

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    [furiously jots down notes in "silly campaign ideas" notebook]
    You've got one as well, eh?

    I've always wanted to try a "cavemen vs. astronauts" campaign, basically to see if Fred was right (in Joss Whedon's Angel). "Cavemen win, of course the cavemen win."
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    Default Re: If the Order fails and the world is destroyed, what happens to the Blood Oath?

    Wouldnít that depend entirely on the setting?

    I mean, if you drop the cavemen into the modern day and the astronauts have access to current tech, of course the astronauts win.

    If you take a couple astronauts who are just walking around doing their shopping on an ordinary day (they donít spend 100% of the time in space) and drop them in them into the Stone Age, then the cavemen win because the astronauts donít have basic knowledge like ďidentifying which plants arenít poisonousĒ (unless they happen to be into botany on the side) or ďhunting/trapping animals using stone and bone toolsĒ.

    Is there something Iím missing about the concept?

    Sorry if this is thread-derailing.
    Last edited by LadyEowyn; 2020-05-18 at 04:25 PM.

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    Default Re: If the Order fails and the world is destroyed, what happens to the Blood Oath?

    I thought the concept was more Gladiatorial Combat. In which case the Astronauts, being military dudes in good health by modern standards would have a pretty solid advantage.
    "Besides, you know the saying: Kill one, and you are a murderer. Kill millions, and you are a conqueror. Kill them all, and you are a god." -- Fishman

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    Default Re: If the Order fails and the world is destroyed, what happens to the Blood Oath?

    Quote Originally Posted by The MunchKING View Post
    I thought the concept was more Gladiatorial Combat. In which case the Astronauts, being military dudes in good health by modern standards would have a pretty solid advantage.
    Cavemen* were pretty tough, though. And very much more used to death (both of their own and by their own hands) than modern army dudes. Of course martial arts werenít invented and neither were combat doctrine so it really depends on the individuals, the tools/weapons at their disposal and the arena.


    Which is a terribly imprecise term. Homo ergaster? neanderthalensis? Early sapiens? Modern sapiens?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    the Vector Legion [is the IFCC's new pawns], mark my words. Way too much unfinished business there and they already know about the Gates.
    I'll take that bet.

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    Default Re: If the Order fails and the world is destroyed, what happens to the Blood Oath?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    But the Blood Oath is not a silly oath. Itís a magic oath, a geas. Thatís like saying that if Eugene was soul-trapped he could still go to a chaotic afterlife because it would be lawful to comply with the interdiction of the spell.
    Not only is it a magic oath, but being chaotic or lawful isn't about keeping or not keeping oaths. It's about your respect for the rules in place or your personal code of conduct, or your viewpoint of law vs anarchy, or freedom, or a whole bunch of stuff. Even a chaotic person can make promises. Hell, you could even consider that a true vow from a chaotic person is extremely precious because it's something that is really close to their heart. Doesn't mean that they'll keep the vow forever (circumstances depending) but it should be taken as seriously as a vow from a lawful person.

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    Default Re: If the Order fails and the world is destroyed, what happens to the Blood Oath?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    But the Blood Oath is not a silly oath. Itís a magic oath, a geas. Thatís like saying that if Eugene was soul-trapped he could still go to a chaotic afterlife because it would be lawful to comply with the interdiction of the spell.
    But we clearly see that the Deva seems to have jurisdiction over the "magic oath", she says "it's not a problem for us" in case of Roy and lets him in. Eugene protest and insists magic binds Roy as well, and the Deva explains why they let Roy in but not him. But the key is IMO that it's the powers that be that are making this call, not being bound by some cosmic unknowable diffuse concept of "magic". The Deva lets Roy in becasue it is in her power to do so. Which means logically, a Chaotic Deva, whatever that is, should have similar powers over whether you are up to the standards of Chaotic, geas or no. Eugene disagrees, he clearly thinks "magic" in this case should trump. Clearly he is mistaken. Even Roy think so and argues against the pointlessness he believes the interview to be as he assumes he will be bound by magic to not enter.

    Again, the unfulfilled Blood Oath for Roy is "not a problem for us" ie LG in the case of Roy. But it is a problem for them in the case of Eugene. Because of his lackadasical approach to fulfilling it. Nowhere does it say they can't let him in becasue the power of magic is greater than them, they are chosing not to because he did not fulfil his Oath. Not even trying to.

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    Default Re: If the Order fails and the world is destroyed, what happens to the Blood Oath?

    Quote Originally Posted by snowblizz View Post
    Again, the unfulfilled Blood Oath for Roy is "not a problem for us" ie LG in the case of Roy. But it is a problem for them in the case of Eugene. Because of his lackadasical approach to fulfilling it. Nowhere does it say they can't let him in becasue the power of magic is greater than them, they are chosing not to because he did not fulfil his Oath. Not even trying to.
    I think the point is that "died trying" overrides any magical power the oath may have.

    The person swearing the oath, is saying "I will not rest (living or dead) until it is fulfilled".

    Quote Originally Posted by snowblizz View Post
    The Deva lets Roy in becasue it is in her power to do so. Which means logically, a Chaotic Deva, whatever that is, should have similar powers over whether you are up to the standards of Chaotic, geas or no.

    And since Devas are a subclass of Angel, and Angels are Any Good

    https://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/angel.htm

    I think it's safe to say that Chaotic Good realms will have some Chaotic Good devas.

    Ysgard (OOTS's Valhalla is the nearest equivalent) is a Chaotic plane, leaning toward Good:

    https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1136.html

    and we know from this that Thor is served by deva. There's a strong implication that Thor's associated with Valhalla.

    Presumably, these are Thor's Deva minions:

    https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0201.html
    https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0353.html

    and they are presumably CG.
    Last edited by hamishspence; 2020-05-19 at 06:23 AM.
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    Default Re: If the Order fails and the world is destroyed, what happens to the Blood Oath?

    Quote Originally Posted by snowblizz View Post
    But we clearly see that the Deva seems to have jurisdiction over the "magic oath", she says "it's not a problem for us" in case of Roy and lets him in. Eugene protest and insists magic binds Roy as well, and the Deva explains why they let Roy in but not him. But the key is IMO that it's the powers that be that are making this call, not being bound by some cosmic unknowable diffuse concept of "magic". The Deva lets Roy in becasue it is in her power to do so. Which means logically, a Chaotic Deva, whatever that is, should have similar powers over whether you are up to the standards of Chaotic, geas or no. Eugene disagrees, he clearly thinks "magic" in this case should trump. Clearly he is mistaken. Even Roy think so and argues against the pointlessness he believes the interview to be as he assumes he will be bound by magic to not enter.

    Again, the unfulfilled Blood Oath for Roy is "not a problem for us" ie LG in the case of Roy. But it is a problem for them in the case of Eugene. Because of his lackadasical approach to fulfilling it. Nowhere does it say they can't let him in becasue the power of magic is greater than them, they are chosing not to because he did not fulfil his Oath. Not even trying to.
    You choose to read that scene as the Deva overriding the Oath, when it seems to me that the Oath was already content with Royís effort and the Deva is simply pointing that fact out.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    the Vector Legion [is the IFCC's new pawns], mark my words. Way too much unfinished business there and they already know about the Gates.
    I'll take that bet.

  18. - Top - End - #18
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    Default Re: If the Order fails and the world is destroyed, what happens to the Blood Oath?

    Xykon won't make it.

    There is clear evidence of his possible survival. The Angels know that his oath is unfulfilled (despite Xykon having epic level anti scrying available) so as long as an oath spirit remains they know they missed someone. Even the least of gods have free access to limited wish. If push comes to shove he won't make it.

    Eugene will go to the afterlife, eventually, as even the none godly outsiders get a free mind whipe between worlds. So the slate will be wiped and Xykon will be part of it.

    If there was no bloodoath? He might last awhile but boredom and insanity will set in long before the next world.

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    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: If the Order fails and the world is destroyed, what happens to the Blood Oath?

    This is assuming Xykon would even know he needs to escape to the Astral Plane. He doesn't know the truth about the Snarl, the gods' backup plan, or that there's any risk of the world ending. As far as he knows this is just a big monster. So it's questionable he would even realize that existence is being undone.

    More importantly, the world shaking is just what Hilgya said, and we know she knew nothing about the Snarl up until Durkon told her about it. So we can't assume that her description of what would happen if the gods unmade existence is how it would play out. It's possible it would be an instantaneous disintegration.

    Xykon might not get any warning if the gods unmake the world, and he's not likely to understand the true scope of the Snarl's threat if it attacks him, especially since he thinks his soul will safely go to the Astral Plane and not to the phylactery that's in Redcloak's possession right next to him. (Assuming Redcloak keeps it with him)
    Last edited by NerdyKris; 2020-05-21 at 05:58 PM.

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    Default Re: If the Order fails and the world is destroyed, what happens to the Blood Oath?

    If the world is destroyed by the gods, Xykon dies and the oath is fulfilled. Perhaps he could escape to another plane, but he'd have to know to do so, and while it hasn't been said explicitly, if the gods go so far as to wipe the memories of the outsiders, I wouldn't be shocked if they hunted down any loose ends of the prime material as well (especially ones like Xykon who won't die on their own). They might not even have to depending on how their destruction of the world works.

    And of course of the Snarl unmakes everything, then it really doesn't matter.

    As for Julia, isn't she true neutral? It seems unlikely that the blood oath would be a problem for any non-lawful alignment. Also note that it didn't keep Eric out of the lawful good afterlife, though of course the rules may be different for him.

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    Default Re: If the Order fails and the world is destroyed, what happens to the Blood Oath?

    Four words.

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    Default Re: If the Order fails and the world is destroyed, what happens to the Blood Oath?

    Quote Originally Posted by facw View Post
    As for Julia, isn't she true neutral? It seems unlikely that the blood oath would be a problem for any non-lawful alignment. Also note that it didn't keep Eric out of the lawful good afterlife, though of course the rules may be different for him.
    Eugene was still alive when Eric died in the accident. The Blood Oath only affects his children once he himself passed away.

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    Default Re: If the Order fails and the world is destroyed, what happens to the Blood Oath?

    Quote Originally Posted by The MunchKING View Post
    I thought the concept was more Gladiatorial Combat. In which case the Astronauts, being military dudes in good health by modern standards would have a pretty solid advantage.
    The first astronauts back in the 1960s were all members of the military, but most of them nowadays are scientists, not soldiers. And even those military guys back in the day were test pilots, not infantrymen, so in unarmed combat or even combat with melee weapons, the cavemen would probably have an edge.

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    Default Re: If the Order fails and the world is destroyed, what happens to the Blood Oath?

    Quote Originally Posted by dps View Post
    The first astronauts back in the 1960s were all members of the military, but most of them nowadays are scientists, not soldiers. And even those military guys back in the day were test pilots, not infantrymen, so in unarmed combat or even combat with melee weapons, the cavemen would probably have an edge.
    Practically all of the early astronauts had a BS or MS (usually in aerospace engineering), with some like Buzz Aldrin even having a doctorate (Aldrin had an Ph.D in Orbital Mechanics from MIT). Even the early astronauts were all highly educated scientists - they were just also in the military.

    This is still largely true today.
    Last edited by Peelee; 2020-05-23 at 06:08 PM.
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    Default Re: If the Order fails and the world is destroyed, what happens to the Blood Oath?

    What happens to Xykon if he plane shifts to his astral fortress, but the snarl destroys his phylactery?

    Also, Iím pretty sure John Glenn had a *lot* of experience points, and a high CON score. Heíd probably be a pretty high level and have a ton of HP.
    Last edited by Dion; 2020-05-23 at 10:12 PM.

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    Default Re: If the Order fails and the world is destroyed, what happens to the Blood Oath?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dion View Post
    What happens to Xykon if he plane shifts to his astral fortress, but the snarl destroys his phylactery?
    He should be fine. He's not affected by the phylactery being destroyed unless he himself is regenerating from it.

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    Default Re: If the Order fails and the world is destroyed, what happens to the Blood Oath?

    Caveman vs astronaut is not a debate I expected to see. Maybe we can try the classic samurai vs knight next.
    ungelic is us

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    Halfling in the Playground
     
    SwashbucklerGuy

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    Default Re: If the Order fails and the world is destroyed, what happens to the Blood Oath?

    I don't think cavemen frequently got into fights. Their experience was more in ambushing or exhausting some wild animal and throwing a spear at it. A modern human with any amount of combat experience, even just something like 'took wrestling in high school'', would probably have an edge.

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    Firbolg in the Playground
     
    Fyraltari's Avatar

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    Default Re: If the Order fails and the world is destroyed, what happens to the Blood Oath?

    Quote Originally Posted by hungrycrow View Post
    I don't think cavemen frequently got into fights. Their experience was more in ambushing or exhausting some wild animal and throwing a spear at it. A modern human with any amount of combat experience, even just something like 'took wrestling in high school'', would probably have an edge.
    Heh, archeological evidence suggests that it varied a lot from individual culture to indidividual culture, some had little to zero human violence as cause of death while some had so many it looks borderline genocidal.
    "Any technology distinguishable from magic is insufficiently advanced."
    Gehm's corollary to Clarke's Third Law



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    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    the Vector Legion [is the IFCC's new pawns], mark my words. Way too much unfinished business there and they already know about the Gates.
    I'll take that bet.

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    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    HalflingRogueGuy

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    Default Re: If the Order fails and the world is destroyed, what happens to the Blood Oath?

    Iíve read a lot of Conan stories, and I can definitively say that the primitive barbarians of Northern Hyboria are the greatest hand to hand combatants in the history of the universe.

    Even the two greatest astronauts of all time, Charlton Heston and Captain Kirk, would be no match against Conan.
    Last edited by Dion; 2020-05-24 at 12:02 PM.

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