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  1. - Top - End - #121
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    AvatarVecna's Avatar

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    Default Re: Evil Villains Werewolf

    Quote Originally Posted by Valmark View Post
    Isn't it the same when you don't have proof wether you lynch the counter-claimer or the claimer? In a game with all power roles we should be careful of who might want to kill who, like for example this time around.
    Claiming is a strategy for saving yourself. It's a good move for a townie, but verifying the claim can be difficult so it gives wolves more new info than it gives town. Counterclaiming is a risky move regardless of how those involved would flip, because it's inherently setting yourself up in opposition to the existing narrative. Saying "that person is lying" is a dumb move for a wolf and can be a pretty risky move for a neutral - if Apogee's goal was getting murderer killed and then surviving the rest of the game, guaranteed he'd have kept his mouth shut. That's not me talking smack, that's just how I've seen it play out so many times with neutrals like this across so many games. It's even a dumb move for town - obviously you don't fake-counterclaim as town, that helps noone, but revealing your role when youre not up for lynch to get a liar caught is sacrificing yourself for the good of the town.

    People claim to save themselves. People counterclaim to catch liars, or as part of very risky gambits. The former is a lot more likely to be lying than the latter on general principle.


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  2. - Top - End - #122
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    GreenSorcererElf

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    Default Re: Evil Villains Werewolf

    Quote Originally Posted by AvatarVecna View Post
    Claiming is a strategy for saving yourself. It's a good move for a townie, but verifying the claim can be difficult so it gives wolves more new info than it gives town. Counterclaiming is a risky move regardless of how those involved would flip, because it's inherently setting yourself up in opposition to the existing narrative. Saying "that person is lying" is a dumb move for a wolf and can be a pretty risky move for a neutral - if Apogee's goal was getting murderer killed and then surviving the rest of the game, guaranteed he'd have kept his mouth shut. That's not me talking smack, that's just how I've seen it play out so many times with neutrals like this across so many games. It's even a dumb move for town - obviously you don't fake-counterclaim as town, that helps noone, but revealing your role when youre not up for lynch to get a liar caught is sacrificing yourself for the good of the town.

    People claim to save themselves. People counterclaim to catch liars, or as part of very risky gambits. The former is a lot more likely to be lying than the latter on general principle.

    To put it more simply. If you have competing claims and the real one is lynched first, the other is pretty much guaranteed to be next. Best case scenario for a wolf fake-counterclaiming is to be lynched second. But losing one wolf usually hurts the wolves more than losing one townie hurts town.

  3. - Top - End - #123
    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: Evil Villains Werewolf

    Quote Originally Posted by Valmark View Post
    Yeah that's correct.

    On another note, I realize that between the game I got eliminated in and this one I've gotten mighty distracted and didn't comment on the fact that gac voted kgato because "they are statistically a wolf".

    Yeah, that's really not a good reason. I agree that not voting someone because they were recently a wolf makes no sense, but voting someone because they have been wolves more often then not?

    *votes harder*
    That was my initial reason and was a joke. The end reason was, to keep me alive.

  4. - Top - End - #124
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    Default Re: Evil Villains Werewolf

    I may not have followed everything above, but I think it's still usually safe to trust a counter-claimant and the claiming/counter-claiming isn't terrible. The incident that occurred here with a neutral is likely to be rare (at least across games, and probably within this game.)

    If someone claims to save their skin, it could be legit or a wolf lying to save themself.
    If someone counter-claims, they are probably telling the truth. Since a wolf counter-claiming means they die next. Though, late game, if this happens I suppose we should do the math to see if a mislynch would mean the game ends.

  5. - Top - End - #125
    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: Evil Villains Werewolf

    Man... I got lucky there.

  6. - Top - End - #126
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    BlueWizardGirl

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    Default Re: Evil Villains Werewolf

    Approximately twenty-six hours left of the night. Please post your actions in your QTs if you haven't already done so.

    Also, in response to a question someone asked: yes, you may absolutely provide your own death scene or flavour text if you want to. It's not compulsory to do so, though. If you don't, you just get stuck with whatever I can come up with!
    Werewolf games won: 7 (as town three times, wolf, evil mutant, town a fourth time and Russian spy. Don't ask.)

    Werewolf games lost: 1 (as survivor)

    Number of deaths: 4 (killed night one for trying (and mostly failing) to do crazy stuff; killed night zero for being crazy enough to narrate a game; horribly murdered by Valmark, Xihirli and Lord Athos for no particular reason night one; killed night two for being the Seer)

  7. - Top - End - #127
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    Default Re: Evil Villains Werewolf

    Quote Originally Posted by Snowblaze View Post
    Also, in response to a question someone asked: yes, you may absolutely provide your own death scene or flavour text if you want to. It's not compulsory to do so, though. If you don't, you just get stuck with whatever I can come up with!
    I have a feeling I know who asked.


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  8. - Top - End - #128
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    Default Re: Evil Villains Werewolf

    I wouldn’t count on that.
    Spoiler: Quotes
    Show
    Quote Originally Posted by Zar Peter View Post
    Supagoof took the most blows and incidentally took exactly the same damage Xihirli inflicted.
    Quote Originally Posted by Silent_Interim View Post
    Xihirli: Being a better target since 2015.
    Quote Originally Posted by Elenna View Post
    Xihirli, bastion of murder and betrayal.
    Quote Originally Posted by BasketOfPuppies View Post
    Wow I missed a lot today. So, kill Xihirli?
    Quote Originally Posted by Iceseer View Post
    I really wanted what Xihirli said to be true though.
    Quote Originally Posted by Snowblaze View Post
    You can trust her to be completely insane; and probably to backstab you.
    Quote Originally Posted by flat_footed View Post
    I still prefer to see you as the dagger hanging over us all, Xi.

  9. - Top - End - #129
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    Default Re: Evil Villains Werewolf

    I want to know who said it. My guess was Xihiril.

  10. - Top - End - #130
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    BlueWizardGirl

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    Default Re: Evil Villains Werewolf

    Libro, actually.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Although Xihirli did make some... interesting submissions. You’ll have to kill her to find out what they are!
    Werewolf games won: 7 (as town three times, wolf, evil mutant, town a fourth time and Russian spy. Don't ask.)

    Werewolf games lost: 1 (as survivor)

    Number of deaths: 4 (killed night one for trying (and mostly failing) to do crazy stuff; killed night zero for being crazy enough to narrate a game; horribly murdered by Valmark, Xihirli and Lord Athos for no particular reason night one; killed night two for being the Seer)

  11. - Top - End - #131
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    Default Re: Evil Villains Werewolf

    Prehemptive buffer post to get the notification, don't mind me.

    Not sure "prehemptive" is the correct word.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Or "buffer".
    I won an argument with my GM -15/08/2017- (20:32 GMT +1)

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  12. - Top - End - #132
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    Default Re: Evil Villains Werewolf

    Quote Originally Posted by Snowblaze View Post
    Libro, actually.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Although Xihirli did make some... interesting submissions. You’ll have to kill her to find out what they are!
    If you can.
    Spoiler: Quotes
    Show
    Quote Originally Posted by Zar Peter View Post
    Supagoof took the most blows and incidentally took exactly the same damage Xihirli inflicted.
    Quote Originally Posted by Silent_Interim View Post
    Xihirli: Being a better target since 2015.
    Quote Originally Posted by Elenna View Post
    Xihirli, bastion of murder and betrayal.
    Quote Originally Posted by BasketOfPuppies View Post
    Wow I missed a lot today. So, kill Xihirli?
    Quote Originally Posted by Iceseer View Post
    I really wanted what Xihirli said to be true though.
    Quote Originally Posted by Snowblaze View Post
    You can trust her to be completely insane; and probably to backstab you.
    Quote Originally Posted by flat_footed View Post
    I still prefer to see you as the dagger hanging over us all, Xi.

  13. - Top - End - #133
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    BlueWizardGirl

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    Default Re: Evil Villains Werewolf

    End Night One

    (Note: if your night action doesn’t specifically give you feedback, assume it was successful unless I tell you otherwise.)

    You wake early that morning to a horrible scream of pain. Fairly normal practice, but not when it’s one of you screaming. Because when you hurry towards the sound, you find Aventine lying on the ground, rocking back and forth in pain as their blood spills out over the floor. “Alas,” they say, “after all these years, that I must die here, to a mere stab wound from some insignificant hero. It is truly unbearable.”

    You beg them to tell you who murdered them, but they ignore you to continue with their monologue. “All the times it would have been far more fitting to die, and now when I have information that could be so valuable to you, and I have not the time to reveal it. I am the one who sees all and watches all, and tonight I saw... so many follow one person... but no, that matters not.”

    “Did you see who killed you? Who was it?”

    “Yes,” they grind out, blinking to hold back the pain. “I saw their face, I saw the look of triumph in their eyes as they plunged the knife into my heart... and the pain, the agony. I never knew dying would hurt so much...”

    “Who killed you?”

    “It was...” Before the name can leave Aventine’s lips, they collapse and never move again.

    You stare at each other in silent horror. How many of you will die before this mess is over? And who will be alive to carry out the Plan? Or will you all fall to these heroes?

    Aventine was killed. They were the Watchful Villain.

    Spoiler: Aventine’s role PM
    Show

    Aventine, you are the Watchful Villain. You win with the villains (town) when the heroes (wolves) are dead. Your all-seeing powers will tell you who has been doing what to who... just a shame they're limited in their strength.

    Each night, you may pick a player and choose to see either who they targeted or who targeted them, but not both.

    [redacted]

    Good luck and have fun!


    Begin Day Two, which will end in 48 hours, at 2pm GMT on Sunday.
    Werewolf games won: 7 (as town three times, wolf, evil mutant, town a fourth time and Russian spy. Don't ask.)

    Werewolf games lost: 1 (as survivor)

    Number of deaths: 4 (killed night one for trying (and mostly failing) to do crazy stuff; killed night zero for being crazy enough to narrate a game; horribly murdered by Valmark, Xihirli and Lord Athos for no particular reason night one; killed night two for being the Seer)

  14. - Top - End - #134
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    BardGuy

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    Default Re: Evil Villains Werewolf

    Although Aventine's death lacks the panache of one of Xihirli's kills, I don't like how playful she has been thus far. So part of me feels inclined to vote for Xihirli to push for more solid analysis.

    But, looking at the votes (and justifications for votes) that were on Aventine, JoyWonderLove looks the most suspicious. Aventine already questioned JWL's logic, and, as Aventine flipped Town, I'm inclined to believe their surprise at the logic.

  15. - Top - End - #135
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    RedKnightGirl

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    Question Re: Evil Villains Werewolf

    You raise a good point, Jeen, about it being a little suspicious. I was the last person to vote for Aventine, and I also pointed out in the same post that they're a good medium to long term help for town. But please also consider I was also one of the few to actually unvote Aventine. Practically immediately after he pointed out voting for him was silly (which it was, which is why I think D1 voting is dumb. But anyway...)

    More importantly: Wouldn't it be really, really stupid of me to actually take any part in that? Because of literally exactly what you said. It paints me as suspect. As town I wouldn't do it, because Aventine is a helpful player that gets conversation going. As a wolf I wouldn't do it, because under these circumstances it highlights me. There's just no helpful part in this where I wring my hands evilly and go "MWUAHAHAHAHAAAA! AND NOW, I STRIKE AT THEE: AVENTINE!!!" So, no, I really didn't have any part in it.

    What's more likely is what actually happened: wolves read my post, or played in the Crazy Ideas game where Aventine was amazing, and then went after Aventine to get rid of one of our good players.

    Kind of like the wagon out of nowhere on gac3.
    Last edited by JoyWonderLove; 2020-05-22 at 02:54 PM.

  16. - Top - End - #136
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    Default Re: Evil Villains Werewolf

    To be fair, I've seen plenty if wolves incriminating themselves. Snow even got away after she basically said "Yeah I was the wolves' killer tonight" in another game.

    Less explicitely of course.
    I won an argument with my GM -15/08/2017- (20:32 GMT +1)

    Want to try a WereWolf or Mafia game? Do you already know it and want to play it? Dungeons and Doppelgangers is recruiting!


  17. - Top - End - #137
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    Default Re: Evil Villains Werewolf

    I'm going to point the finger at Valmark right now for his response to the Apogee Gambit, calling into question the viability of counterclaims in the future. Could be a play at undermining one of town's best tools there.
    Last edited by Xihirli; 2020-05-23 at 11:18 AM.
    Spoiler: Quotes
    Show
    Quote Originally Posted by Zar Peter View Post
    Supagoof took the most blows and incidentally took exactly the same damage Xihirli inflicted.
    Quote Originally Posted by Silent_Interim View Post
    Xihirli: Being a better target since 2015.
    Quote Originally Posted by Elenna View Post
    Xihirli, bastion of murder and betrayal.
    Quote Originally Posted by BasketOfPuppies View Post
    Wow I missed a lot today. So, kill Xihirli?
    Quote Originally Posted by Iceseer View Post
    I really wanted what Xihirli said to be true though.
    Quote Originally Posted by Snowblaze View Post
    You can trust her to be completely insane; and probably to backstab you.
    Quote Originally Posted by flat_footed View Post
    I still prefer to see you as the dagger hanging over us all, Xi.

  18. - Top - End - #138
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    Valmark's Avatar

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    Default Re: Evil Villains Werewolf

    Quote Originally Posted by Xihirli View Post
    I'm going to point the finger at Valmark right now for his response to the Apogee Gambit, calling into question the viability of counterclaims in the future. Could be a play at undermining one of town's best tools there.
    Nah, just a knee-jerk reaction. I never replied but I actually understood what the others explained to me later.

    Though I'd obviously say that. On another note, I have no idea who to vote right now, for once. I'll hold off on that for the time being >.>
    I won an argument with my GM -15/08/2017- (20:32 GMT +1)

    Want to try a WereWolf or Mafia game? Do you already know it and want to play it? Dungeons and Doppelgangers is recruiting!


  19. - Top - End - #139
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    RedKnightGirl

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    eek Re: Evil Villains Werewolf

    Quote Originally Posted by Valmark View Post
    To be fair, I've seen plenty if wolves incriminating themselves. Snow even got away after she basically said "Yeah I was the wolves' killer tonight" in another game.

    Less explicitely of course.
    Valmark, you're not helping right now! XP

    But it would be much more helpful, to everyone, if we at least retraced a bit to see how we got here (apopgee being the best player in the history of Mafia aside). So let's look at who would intentionally vote and stay on one of town's few declared power roles. Instead of trying to focus attention on, say, a point I made about Aventine. A point almost everyone already knows (because most of the players here also played Crazy Ideas). And who I near immediately unvoted for (unlike several others). Whereas those that voted for kgato intentionally attacked a declared town role (even if it was because apopgee is a genius).

    So, let's take a look....


    Spoiler
    Show

    Quote Originally Posted by CaoimhinTheCape View Post
    I mean, we have the same timestamp for when we posted. That's just some great timing there.

    And I have no idea what you're talking about. Capes are for dramatic flair. No correlation to heroes.
    I'm biased, because I like Caohimn, I like capes (sort of), and I like TVtropes. So, clearly innocent.

    Quote Originally Posted by rogue_alchemist View Post
    the dice gods choose gac3. Your sacrifice is appreciated.
    Quote Originally Posted by rogue_alchemist View Post
    the dice gods do not care for what others are doing and are chaos incarnate! They must be appeased! (Though, no, I did not see that a vote already existed )
    Quote Originally Posted by rogue_alchemist View Post
    Man this got exciting all at once! kgato503 seems to have claimed badly. Or if not Apogee1 is going to get it Day 2. Man this is the essence of the game! Now will our sleuthiness pay off?
    I'm biased again, because he also vouched for my day 1 whining earlier. So, innocent?

    Quote Originally Posted by kgato503 View Post
    *Sigh* This is going to get me killed, but I guess I have to claim.

    Guys, I'm the Murderer. I kill people for you. May I suggest not killing me?
    Quote Originally Posted by AvatarVecna View Post
    I'm already on a counterwagon, but I'm also fine being the claim-testing sacrifice if kgato doesn't have somebody better in mind to kill tonight as proof.
    AV is one of the only people that tried to save our vigilante, who is the only person town has to actively make a difference at night (obviously), short of seer or blocker. AV also pointed out being on the chopping block, but was still willing to try and protect our vigilante. So, AV's gold in my opinion.

    Quote Originally Posted by Elenna View Post
    Yep kgato503. I'm more inclined to believe the counter-claimer than the one who claimed under pressure.

    (also vigilante isn't a super useful role, especially early game, so even if Apogee is the lying scum, losing one is definitely worth finding a wolf.)
    By itself, I would say it's suspicious to not value the player that's town's counterpunch at night. But even in the Crazy Ideas game, Elenna and I worked together, and she really didn't appreciate the idea of playing vigilante, or value that role generally. So, it makes sense she wouldn't mind throwing kgato under the bus. Kind of a pass?

    Kind of.

    Quote Originally Posted by JeenLeen;
    rogue_alchemist's vote is the first one to put 2 votes on somebody (well, besides Xihirli's self-vote, but that doesn't count for analysis purposes.)
    While I can see that as valid, as someone has to start a wagon to get real analysis going, what I don't see as valid is putting a second vote on someone for RNG purposes.

    So shifting my vote to rogue_alchemist.
    Even if it was an honest mistake and they missed the vote on gac3... well, honest mistakes can look bad.
    Quote Originally Posted by JeenLeen View Post
    So if kgato503 flips Town (Murderer), we kill apogee1 the next Day.
    Sounds like a plan.

    ---

    Assuming kgato is a lying hero, I wonder if it was a neat balance of trying to claim early enough that there's time for the votes to move around, but late enough that a counter-claim might not come in time.
    Seems heroes don't have the proper sense of timing
    Jeen highlighted how useful kgato was, after the role was openly declared, and still voted for him...

    This is really not the kind of foundation you want to build before calling anyone else suspicious. Let alone for doing less than you did to lose town a useful role.

    Quote Originally Posted by Valmark View Post
    Let's trust Apogee. kgato503.
    Oh, you sweet summer child...

    Quote Originally Posted by Libro View Post
    Oho, it would appear my faith was mislaid.

    kgato
    Libro just seems to be having fun regardless.



    So, based on the above, only the person I didn't quote (gac3) is probably the second most suspicious at a glance, with JeenLeen first. gac3's logic for voting for kgato was that kgato was statistically a wolf. Which doesn't make much sense considering the roles are assigned semi-randomly. Even rogue_alchemist pointed out how weird that was, earlier.
    Last edited by JoyWonderLove; 2020-05-22 at 03:00 PM.

  20. - Top - End - #140
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    Default Re: Evil Villains Werewolf

    Quote Originally Posted by JoyWonderLove View Post
    Valmark, you're not helping right now! XP

    But it would be much more helpful to everyone if we at least retraced a bit to see how we got here (apopgee being the best player in the history of Mafia aside). So let's look at who would intentionally vote and stay on one of town's few declared power roles. Instead of trying to focus attention on, say, a point I made about Aventine. A point almost everyone already knows (because most of the players here also played Crazy Ideas). And who I near immediately unvoted for (unlike several others). Whereas those that voted for kgato intentionally attacked a declared town role (even if it was because apopgee is a genius).

    So, let's take a look....


    Spoiler
    Show



    I'm biased, because I like Caohimn, I like capes (sort of), and I like TVtropes. So, clearly innocent.





    I'm biased again, because he also vouched for my day 1 whining earlier. So, innocent?





    AV is one of the only people that tried to save our vigilante, who is the only person town has to actively make a difference at night (obviously), short of seer or blocker. AV also pointed out being on the chopping block, but was still willing to try and protect our vigilante. So, AV's gold in my opinion.



    By itself, I would say it's suspicious to not value the player that's town's counterpunch at night. But even in the Crazy Ideas game, Elenna and I worked together, and she really didn't appreciate the idea of playing vigilante, or value that role generally. So, it makes sense she wouldn't mind throwing kgato under the bus. Kind of a pass?

    Kind of.





    Jeen highlighted how useful kgato was, after the role was openly declared, and still voted for him...

    This is really not the kind of foundation you want to build before calling anyone else suspicious. Let alone for doing less than you did to lose town a useful role.



    Oh, you sweet summer child...



    Libro just seems to be having fun regardless.



    So, based on the above, only the person I didn't quote (gac3) is probably the second most suspicious at a glance, with JeenLeen first. gac3's logic for voting for kgato was that kgato was statistically a wolf. Which doesn't make much sense considering the roles are assigned semi-randomly. Even rogue_alchemist pointed out how weird that was, earlier.
    It's not the first time gac3 has a similar reasoning- last time they wrote something like that they said that someone was unlikely to be a wolf since they were one last game.
    And the person in question was actually a wolf!
    I won an argument with my GM -15/08/2017- (20:32 GMT +1)

    Want to try a WereWolf or Mafia game? Do you already know it and want to play it? Dungeons and Doppelgangers is recruiting!


  21. - Top - End - #141
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    Default Re: Evil Villains Werewolf

    Caoimhin wakes up from a restful night of sleep, fastening his cape as he rejoins the group. "Hey everyone! I know Libro says that capes aren't fashionable but think of the drama! The flair! Aventine gets it, right... Ave..."

    "Oh. Right. Uhhh, we gotta figure this out before anyone else dies. What kind of heroes kill anyway?!? I mean, they killed our Mastermind and Watcher! And got us to lynch our own Murderer. That's not a heroic thing to do! All we did was commit heinous crimes! Killing us is just mean."
    Cao looks at the group, frowning. More importantly, he stands on an air vent so his cape gently billows behind him.




    On to actual game...

    Quote Originally Posted by Aventine View Post

    Quote Originally Posted by JoyWonderLove View Post
    So, I guess Aventine until I have a better idea? Aventine is good at bringing together all the quotes of people, so everyone can have a better idea of a player's thoughts and feelings. And that's neat mid and later game. But earlier game, until I have a better idea who to vote for, we can gamble on the lose?

    You think I'm useful in mid- and late-game, therefore you're willing to risk killing me early? I don't follow.
    FoS on Joy for the logic here. The overall point Joy made was about Day 1 votes being pretty random but now that Ave flipped town it just reads weird to me.


    Quote Originally Posted by Valmark View Post
    From now on, I'm lynching the counter-claimer first.
    Still, my vote is going on Valmark for laying the foundation of suspecting counterclaims. Might be getting us ready for when one of their buddies is on the block and dealing with a counter claim.

  22. - Top - End - #142
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    Default Re: Evil Villains Werewolf

    Quote Originally Posted by CaoimhinTheCape View Post
    And got us to lynch our own Murderer.

    Still, my vote is going on Valmark for laying the foundation of suspecting counterclaims. Might be getting us ready for when one of their buddies is on the block and dealing with a counter claim.
    To be fair, Apogee wasn't a Hero.

    That said, I'd tell you how I wouldn't be that blatant but I did previously explain to Joy how the wolves incriminate themselves, so...
    I won an argument with my GM -15/08/2017- (20:32 GMT +1)

    Want to try a WereWolf or Mafia game? Do you already know it and want to play it? Dungeons and Doppelgangers is recruiting!


  23. - Top - End - #143
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    RedKnightGirl

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    Default Re: Evil Villains Werewolf

    Quote Originally Posted by CaoimhinTheCape View Post
    Caoimhin wakes up from a restful night of sleep, fastening his cape as he rejoins the group. "Hey everyone! I know Libro says that capes aren't fashionable but think of the drama! The flair! Aventine gets it, right... Ave..."

    "Oh. Right. Uhhh, we gotta figure this out before anyone else dies. What kind of heroes kill anyway?!? I mean, they killed our Mastermind and Watcher! And got us to lynch our own Murderer. That's not a heroic thing to do! All we did was commit heinous crimes! Killing us is just mean."
    Cao looks at the group, frowning. More importantly, he stands on an air vent so his cape gently billows behind him.


    Quote Originally Posted by CaoimhinTheCape View Post
    FoS on Joy for the logic here. The overall point Joy made was about Day 1 votes being pretty random but now that Ave flipped town it just reads weird to me.
    And that's the tale of why Joy never again voted on day 1 in these games.

    The end.

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    Default Re: Evil Villains Werewolf

    I mean, it would make sense if it wasn't that you have been saying it since day one >.>

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    I meant GAME 1.
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    Default Re: Evil Villains Werewolf

    Quote Originally Posted by JoyWonderLove View Post
    Valmark, you're not helping right now! XP

    But it would be much more helpful, to everyone, if we at least retraced a bit to see how we got here (apopgee being the best player in the history of Mafia aside). So let's look at who would intentionally vote and stay on one of town's few declared power roles. Instead of trying to focus attention on, say, a point I made about Aventine. A point almost everyone already knows (because most of the players here also played Crazy Ideas). And who I near immediately unvoted for (unlike several others). Whereas those that voted for kgato intentionally attacked a declared town role (even if it was because apopgee is a genius).

    So, let's take a look....


    Spoiler
    Show



    I'm biased, because I like Caohimn, I like capes (sort of), and I like TVtropes. So, clearly innocent.





    I'm biased again, because he also vouched for my day 1 whining earlier. So, innocent?





    AV is one of the only people that tried to save our vigilante, who is the only person town has to actively make a difference at night (obviously), short of seer or blocker. AV also pointed out being on the chopping block, but was still willing to try and protect our vigilante. So, AV's gold in my opinion.



    By itself, I would say it's suspicious to not value the player that's town's counterpunch at night. But even in the Crazy Ideas game, Elenna and I worked together, and she really didn't appreciate the idea of playing vigilante, or value that role generally. So, it makes sense she wouldn't mind throwing kgato under the bus. Kind of a pass?

    Kind of.





    Jeen highlighted how useful kgato was, after the role was openly declared, and still voted for him...

    This is really not the kind of foundation you want to build before calling anyone else suspicious. Let alone for doing less than you did to lose town a useful role.



    Oh, you sweet summer child...



    Libro just seems to be having fun regardless.



    So, based on the above, only the person I didn't quote (gac3) is probably the second most suspicious at a glance, with JeenLeen first. gac3's logic for voting for kgato was that kgato was statistically a wolf. Which doesn't make much sense considering the roles are assigned semi-randomly. Even rogue_alchemist pointed out how weird that was, earlier.
    I really wish people would stop saying it's bad logic. I had nothing to go off of because it's day 1. It's no less viable than most of the votes. That said, last time I voted based on that, I was right even though everyone kept telling me I was wrong because it was so unlikely.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JeenLeen View Post
    rogue_alchemist's vote is the first one to put 2 votes on somebody (well, besides Xihirli's self-vote, but that doesn't count for analysis purposes.)
    While I can see that as valid, as someone has to start a wagon to get real analysis going, what I don't see as valid is putting a second vote on someone for RNG purposes.

    So shifting my vote to rogue_alchemist.
    Even if it was an honest mistake and they missed the vote on gac3... well, honest mistakes can look bad.
    Quote Originally Posted by Aventine View Post
    Random seems as good a reason as any to place a second vote at this point, JeenLeen.
    (Unless you are suggesting you have a better reason this early D1? )




    Sliding dramatically, but also subtly and stealthily, out of the shadows, Aventine strikes a pose. After all, what is the point of being a villain if you aren't going to be mysterious and dramatic and edgy?

    "With the boss dead, some random and arbitrary murders seem like just the thing to do. Unless you are suggesting we need a reason to kill underlings? How positively...heroic of an attitude."
    Quote Originally Posted by rogue_alchemist View Post
    the dice gods choose gac3. Your sacrifice is appreciated.
    So, good points for both. Since I don't think two votes would be much to worry about, I'm inclined to follow Aventine's logic more.
    Moving on.
    Quote Originally Posted by gac3 View Post
    To be honest... Kgato always seems to survive and is statistically a wolf. I'm also against the logic not voting someone just because they were a wolf recently. That's how snowblaze fooled us all.
    Just wanted to repeat that this isn't the first time gac made such a reasoning and they were Town AND right.
    Quote Originally Posted by MornShine View Post
    It's late, and this time debate is giving me a headache. Seems like the hamfisted plan of a hero trying to distract or stall...
    RogueAlchemist, I believe you started this.
    Mornshine that apparently voted rogue_alchemist for creating discussion on the basis that is discussion made to confuse?

    I mean, don't get me wrong, I've seen another player do this exactly on purpose so I'm not saying it can't be, just... It's unlikely. Doesn't help that said player was a townie every time and helped the wolves win/got used as a test from Town, so it doesn't feel like a wolf move from rogue.

    Quote Originally Posted by JeenLeen View Post
    I'm thinking of joining the wagon on gac3 to save our Murderer kgato, but
    1. a vigilante is a powerful role and one wolves fear, but it's likely to hit townies as much as wolf. So, in a sense, it's not a bad loss.
    2. a wolf can easily fake being vigilante, until someone counterclaims, so it's not a role whose test we can trust
    3. the wolves will probably kill kgato tonight or tomorrow night if he is the Murderer, anyway. So he'd probably die before his power is accurate.

    So I'm inclined to gain more intel by letting us see if kgato is really who he says.
    And, if he is town, that makes me suspicious of Duck (says his initial vote was RNG, but didn't change it. Could be a wolf who did a distancing vote, but is hesitant to move his vote lest it strongly look like distancing.)

    ---

    As I write this, I see someone else already moved a vote from kgato onto gac3. So a lot of this is null, I guess.
    Well, gac3 claiming as well might be useful. Even if it's something bad to reveal publicly.

    Counter-claims anyone?
    So, expressing disbelief on the not counter-claimed murderer (I think only a little time passed back then though) and preferring their death. Also expressed desire for gac's claiming. And also asked for a counter claim, but that's normal.

    Quote Originally Posted by JeenLeen View Post
    Although Aventine's death lacks the panache of one of Xihirli's kills, I don't like how playful she has been thus far. So part of me feels inclined to vote for Xihirli to push for more solid analysis.

    But, looking at the votes (and justifications for votes) that were on Aventine, JoyWonderLove looks the most suspicious. Aventine already questioned JWL's logic, and, as Aventine flipped Town, I'm inclined to believe their surprise at the logic.
    The fact that Aventine was confused at Joy's logic doesn't make her wolf, since it's normal for Joy. But it's still a plausible point, yeah.
    Quote Originally Posted by Xihirli View Post
    I'm going to point the finger at Valmark right now for his response to the Apogee Gambit, calling into question the viability of counterclaims in the future. Could be a play at undermining one of town's best tools there.
    I should point out that I didn't question the viability of counter-claims, I said that I wasn't going to trust one again. And then I further proceeded to discuss about it (well, I asked one question to which I got three answers)
    Quote Originally Posted by JoyWonderLove View Post
    Jeen highlighted how useful kgato was, after the role was openly declared, and still voted for him...

    This is really not the kind of foundation you want to build before calling anyone else suspicious. Let alone for doing less than you did to lose town a useful role.

    So, based on the above, only the person I didn't quote (gac3) is probably the second most suspicious at a glance, with JeenLeen first. gac3's logic for voting for kgato was that kgato was statistically a wolf. Which doesn't make much sense considering the roles are assigned semi-randomly. Even rogue_alchemist pointed out how weird that was, earlier.
    What I said about gac3 and... Didn't Jeen do the opposite of what you say, recognizing how it is a double edged sword? Not that he is not suspicious of anything, I just don't see what you said.

    That said, while I'm ok with voting Jeen, I first want to prod MornShine. Why did the discussion from D1 feel like a wolf trying to confuse things?
    Last edited by Valmark; 2020-05-23 at 06:58 PM.
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    Default Re: Evil Villains Werewolf

    saying D1 is just lolrandom with no value isn't wolfy, just wrong. JWL will learn the usefulness of D1 in time, but it's not necessarily a reason to string them up.

    I'm working on stuff for a different game, so I'm gonna be a bit distracted for the next ~12 hours, so I'll just put a placeholder vote on an inactive. Let's say...kgato503. No, I haven't actually checked to be sure that kgato hasn't posted much this game. Call it a hunch.

    EDIT: Wait I'm an idiot with a bad memory. kgato died yesterday didn't they?

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    Logan1996 then.
    Last edited by AvatarVecna; 2020-05-23 at 06:59 PM.


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    Putting out a call, because I received a PM/QT convo after the new day started that's relevant to somebody: the Feuding Villain has contacted me attempting to form an alliance. If you're the other Feuding Villain, the one that didn't contact me, get in touch and we'll see if we can work something out.


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    I'm going to start my vote with Xihiril. In part because I'm not sure who to vote for and expect to change this later. In part because I don't like their reasoning for voting Valmark. In part because I want to see what these mysterious submissions were for their death
    Last edited by gac3; 2020-05-23 at 04:35 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Duck999 View Post
    My initial vote for kgato was actually a die roll, so I don't know how I feel about that putting me on the biggest wagon. Also, most of the votes after me were solely for the sake of making a wagon, which I'm not a huge fan of. I'd say it looks like wolves trying to save someone but it was way too early for that. Still, it makes me a little suspicious of Xi and Logan.

    At the same time, the speed with which the gac wagon grew could be someone trying to protect kgato.
    For now, I'm about to be asleep until after the day phase has ended, so I guess I'll stick with kgato because the speed the gac wagon grew was sketchy. If kgato dies and flips wolf, I feel like we can learn a lot there. And if I move my vote now I'm afraid I'm just throwing gac under the bus with no reason.
    Yeah, I'm not generally a fan of posts that talk about how the wagon they're on is suspicious but then don't switch... Could be a wolf trying to make excuses in advance for being on a townie?
    Voting gac for now (see below), but I'd be down to switch to Duck.

    Quote Originally Posted by JoyWonderLove View Post
    Jeen highlighted how useful kgato was, after the role was openly declared, and still voted for him...

    This is really not the kind of foundation you want to build before calling anyone else suspicious. Let alone for doing less than you did to lose town a useful role.

    ...

    So, based on the above, only the person I didn't quote (gac3) is probably the second most suspicious at a glance, with JeenLeen first. gac3's logic for voting for kgato was that kgato was statistically a wolf. Which doesn't make much sense considering the roles are assigned semi-randomly. Even rogue_alchemist pointed out how weird that was, earlier.
    Yeah, I also don't see where Jeen said kgato is useful? If anything they talk about how they're okay with kgato's death:
    Quote Originally Posted by JeenLeen View Post
    I'm thinking of joining the wagon on gac3 to save our Murderer kgato, but
    1. a vigilante is a powerful role and one wolves fear, but it's likely to hit townies as much as wolf. So, in a sense, it's not a bad loss.
    2. a wolf can easily fake being vigilante, until someone counterclaims, so it's not a role whose test we can trust
    3. the wolves will probably kill kgato tonight or tomorrow night if he is the Murderer, anyway. So he'd probably die before his power is accurate.

    So I'm inclined to gain more intel by letting us see if kgato is really who he says.
    Also, for clarity, here's the gac post in question:

    Quote Originally Posted by gac3 View Post
    To be honest... Kgato always seems to survive and is statistically a wolf. I'm also against the logic not voting someone just because they were a wolf recently. That's how snowblaze fooled us all.
    I remember assuming this was a joke vote (because obviously roles are randomly generated, the probability of someone being a wolf has nothing to do with their past history), but it kind of does read like a serious comment actually?

    If it was serious, it's definitely bad logic. But there's a lot of bad logic going around D1, because there isn't much to go on. Both town and wolves can make bad arguments, it only becomes suspicious if you think a wolf is making a false argument on purpose to try to manipulate the lynch. And at the time, the biggest wagons were kgato and Aventine, who are both known townies, so there's no particular reason a wolf would want to make up bad logic just to push one of those wagons. So I'm reading this as a null tell.

    Quote Originally Posted by gac3 View Post
    I'm going to start my vote with Xihiril. In part because I'm not sure who to vote for and expect to change this later. In part because I don't like their reasoning for voting Valmark. In part because I want to see what these mysterious submissions were for their death
    This, on the other hand, I'm not a big fan of. Similar to Duck's comment, the part about voting for Xihirli but expecting to change it later feels like a wolf hoping for a townie lynch without any good evidence, but not wanting to look bad for pushing a lynch on a townie.
    Also, if gac is lynched we might be able to use their flip to get some information from the D1 voting patterns.
    gac3, what are you expecting to happen that causes you to move off Xihirli? Also, can you explain why you didn't like their reasoning for voting Valmark?
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