Updating Gestal Rules (PEACH)

[heavyfuel]

3.5's UA brought us Gestalt Characters. Basically, two characters in one. You gain both classes' class features, and take the best HD, attack bonus, skill points, and saving throws.

This rule is amazing when playing with a few players (a single layer) because it allows for a single character to fill two holes in the party. So the standard Fighter, Rogue, Cleric, Wizard party can be two character, a Fighter//Cleric and a Rogue//Wizard.

The goal:

My goal is not to simply import Gestalt rules into 5e, but also make the rule true to its intention, allowing a single character to fill multiple roles in the party.

Potential problems:

Gestalt rule made more versatile characters, but also made most characters MAD (multiple ability dependant). The Fighter now needs a high Wisdom and decent Charisma, and the Rogue now needs Int more than ever, both for spellcasting and to pick the extra knowledge skills expected of Wizards. Not a big problem in 3.5 with its high point-buys and uncapped stats. In 5e, however, this could be an issue.

Multiclassing also worked seamlessly with Gestalt in 3.5 because Feats and Ability Score Increases were tied to Character level rather than class levels. Allowing characters to multiclass now can allow for double feats/ASI. It becomes even weirder when you take the multiclassing spell table into consideration.

The Rule:

Pick two classes to be your gestalt class.

At 1st level:

- The array for your ability socres is 15 14 14 13 12 8 (32 point-buy equivalent, instead of 27).

- You gain proficiency in saving throws for both classes. A Fighter//Wizard would be proficient in Strength, Constitution, Intelligence, and Wisdom saves; a Rogue//Wizard, however, would only be proficient in Dexterity, Intelligence, and Wisdom.

- Whichever class gives the greater number of skills, you gain that number of skills, plus one. You may pick skills from either class list. A Sorcerer//Ranger would gain 4 skills, picked from either the Sorcerer's or the Ranger's skill list.

- You gain the proficiencies from a single background, as usual.

- You gain the maximum HP possible for the largest HD available for your classes and that HD as Hit Die. A Barbarian//Sorcerer would start with 12+Con HP and have a single d12 for Hit Die.

At every level:

- Your proficiency bonus don't stack.

- No multiclassing allowed.

- Beyond 1st level, you gain the largest HD available for your classes. The class with smallest HD determines your minimum HP you can roll, being equal to half (rounded up) its maximum. A Barbarian//Sorcerer would gain a d12 at every level, any roll below a 4 is treated as a 4.

- You gain features for both your classes, including whichever archetypes, traditions, domains, etc, you choose for each class.

- If you gain multiple Fighting Styles, even if at the same level, you pick each Fighting Style from its given list. You may not pick the same Fighting Style more than once.

- If both classes gain the Unarmored Defense feature, you choose which one to use. Once you make this choice, it cannot be changed.

- The Extra Attack class feature doesn't stack, and you gain only a single extra attack. A Fighter//Paladin of 5th level has a single extra attack, but a Fighter//Paladin of 11th level still has the third attack because of the Fighter feature.

- Ability Score Increases granted at the same level do not stack. A Fighter//Ranger of 4th level would have a single ASI, but would gain a second one at 6th level because of the Fighter class.

- If both classes have the spellcasting feature, use the following rules:

- Spells Known and Prepared: You determine what spells you know and can prepare for each class individually, as if you were a single-classed member of that class. If you are a Ranger//Wizard of 3rd level, for example, you know three 1st-level ranger spells based on your levels in the ranger class. As 3rd level wizard, you know three wizard cantrips, and your spellbook contains ten wizard spells, two of which (the two you gained when you reached 3rd level as a wizard) can be 2nd-level spells. If your Intelligence is 16, you can prepare six wizard spells from your spellbook.

If both classes give you Cantrips known, pick all Cantrips from their respective lists.

Each spell you know and prepare is associated with one of your classes, and you use the spellcasting ability of that class when you cast the spell. Similarly, a spellcasting focus, such as a holy symbol, can be used only for the spells from the class associated with that focus.

- Spell Slots: You have a number of spell slots equal to whichever class' gives you the highest number of slots. For the aforementioned Ranger//Wizard, you would have 4 slots for 1st-level spells, and 2 slots for 2nd-level spells, because that's how many slots the Wizard class gives you. Because you don't know any Ranger spell of 2nd-level, you can use those slots only to cast your lower-level spells. If a lower-level spell that you cast, like cure wounds, has an enhanced effect when cast using a higher-level slot, you can use the enhanced effect, even though you don't have any ranger spells of that higher level.

- Pact Magic: If you have both the Spellcasting class feature and the Pact Magic class feature from the warlock class, you must choose which to use. Once you make this choice, it cannot be changed. Regadless of your choice, you can use the spell slots you gain from the Pact Magic feature to cast spells you know or have prepared from classes with the Spellcasting class feature, or you can use the spell slots you gain from the Spellcasting class feature to cast warlock spells you know.

As such, a Paladin//Warlock 3 that chose Pact Magic would know 2 cantrips and 4 spells from the Warlock list, and be able to prepare 4 spells of the Paladin list (assuming a Charisma of 16). However, he would only have two slots, which he regains when he finishes a short or long rest.

Similarly, a Paladin//Warlock 3 that chose Spellcasting would know and be able to prepare the same number of spells. However, would only have three 1st-level slots, so he wouldn't be able to cast his 2nd-level warlock spells.

At higher levels, a character that chooses Pact Magic and gains the Mystic Arcanum feature can use this feature to cast any spell of the appropriate level he knows or has prepared, regardless of the class that granted the spell.

[FaerieGodfather]

Given the differences between the structure of 3.5 classes and 5e classes, I would strongly suggest that you do not allow standard multiclassing in a Gestalt 5 game. You're going to have enough problems on your hands. (I somehow missed that you'd already figured this out, but it's worth repeating.)

If you're tracking spell slots separately, don't allow them to be used interchangeably-- this is 90% of the problem with the CHA classes, right there.

I could be overreacting, since I don't really play 5e... but it seems to me that while caster/casters don't gain much from this-- like in 3.5-- martial features other than Extra Attack stack better than the 3.5 versions. I'm particularly worried about the intersection between Paladin's Divine Smite or Rogue's Sneak Attack and a dual-wielding Champion Fighter or Open Palm Monk.

At first, the idea that overlapping saving throw bonuses give no benefit seemed like a ripoff... but on second thought, that's actually a very subtle encouragement to favor MAD combinations.

[JNAProductions]

Given the differences between the structure of 3.5 classes and 5e classes, I would strongly suggest that you do not allow standard multiclassing in a Gestalt 5 game. You're going to have enough problems on your hands. (I somehow missed that you'd already figured this out, but it's worth repeating.)

If you're tracking spell slots separately, don't allow them to be used interchangeably-- this is 90% of the problem with the CHA classes, right there.

I could be overreacting, since I don't really play 5e... but it seems to me that while caster/casters don't gain much from this-- like in 3.5-- martial features other than Extra Attack stack better than the 3.5 versions. I'm particularly worried about the intersection between Paladin's Divine Smite or Rogue's Sneak Attack and a dual-wielding Champion Fighter or Open Palm Monk.

At first, the idea that overlapping saving throw bonuses give no benefit seemed like a ripoff... but on second thought, that's actually a very subtle encouragement to favor MAD combinations.

Caster//Caster gains literally twice the spell slots.

And a Paladin//Fighter or Paladin//Monk (assuming the DM lets you smite on unarmed strikes, which I don't believe is RAW, but is something I and many others would be fine allowing) you can get up to four smites in a round. But that means you will burn through your slots like nobody's business-sometimes, it'll be worth it. Other times, you'll have wasted an entire day of resources in one turn.

Sneak Attack is a non-issue. It's once per turn.

[Grod_The_Giant]

I'd be inclined to combine spell slots, rather than keeping them separate-- it's probably simpler, and more importantly, it keeps caster//caster from being such a huge power boost. A Druid//Cleric getting twice as many spell slots to throw at problems is a massive leap in power, especially over the course of an adventuring day.

[FaerieGodfather]

But that means you will burn through your slots like nobody's business-sometimes, it'll be worth it. Other times, you'll have wasted an entire day of resources in one turn.

I'm not thinking about smiting on every attack. I'm thinking about crit-fishing.

Sneak Attack is a non-issue. It's once per turn.

I thought I remembered that, but I wasn't sure.

[heavyfuel]

Given the differences between the structure of 3.5 classes and 5e classes, I would strongly suggest that you do not allow standard multiclassing in a Gestalt 5 game. You're going to have enough problems on your hands. (I somehow missed that you'd already figured this out, but it's worth repeating.)

If you're tracking spell slots separately, don't allow them to be used interchangeably-- this is 90% of the problem with the CHA classes, right there.

As much as I want to allow multiclassing because I love giving options to my players, I agree that's it's probably best not to allow, which is what I already did.

If anyone has any idea on how to allow multiclassing in this system, I'd greatly appreciate the input.

A good point about the "use interchangeably" part of spell slots.

[heavyfuel]

I'm not thinking about smiting on every attack. I'm thinking about crit-fishing

A pally with two weapon fighting can already crit-fish 3 attacks in a round. 4 attacks in a round is not such a big difference

[FaerieGodfather]

A pally with two weapon fighting can already crit-fish 3 attacks in a round. 4 attacks in a round is not such a big difference

It's a bigger difference when the critical range is also doubled.

You're getting a lot of suggestions to combine spell slots to prevent problems with dual 9s. I see the merit in this, but I'm also worried about giving half-casters the benefit of full-caster advancement on their unique spells and class features... which is why I suggested keeping them separated in the first place. Of course, this is just an easier version of the Lore Bard doing the same thing... are people still worried about that?

Also, I'm suggesting separate spell slots because of the Warlock. Beyond shenanigans, it's garbage if Bard|Warlocks lose access to Pact Magic, but it's also garbage if Bard|Warlocks get to keep Pact Magic while Bard|Sorcerers only get single progression spellcasting. (Likewise, I'm not sure how comfortable I am using Wizard or Sorcerer spell recovery mechanics for Bard spells.)

[heavyfuel]

It's a bigger difference when the critical range is also doubled.

Dunno. I think you're over valuing crit fishing. A Paladin//Monk with 19-20 crit range requires either a 3 level Fighter dip for it to work all the time, or a 1 lv Warlock dip for it to work sometime. If we're disallowing multiclass, then that's already impossible by itself.

And even if not, a 10% crit chance over 3 attacks is 27% chance to crit per round. 10% to crit over 4 attacks is 34% to crit in the round. Not a huge difference. Without the increased crit range, 4 attacks only net you 18.5% chance to crit. It's good, don't get me wrong, but hardly what I'd call broken.

I'd be inclined to combine spell slots, rather than keeping them separate-- it's probably simpler, and more importantly, it keeps caster//caster from being such a huge power boost. A Druid//Cleric getting twice as many spell slots to throw at problems is a massive leap in power, especially over the course of an adventuring day.

You're getting a lot of suggestions to combine spell slots to prevent problems with dual 9s. I see the merit in this, but I'm also worried about giving half-casters the benefit of full-caster advancement on their unique spells and class features... which is why I suggested keeping them separated in the first place. Of course, this is just an easier version of the Lore Bard doing the same thing... are people still worried about that?

Also, I'm suggesting separate spell slots because of the Warlock. Beyond shenanigans, it's garbage if Bard|Warlocks lose access to Pact Magic, but it's also garbage if Bard|Warlocks get to keep Pact Magic while Bard|Sorcerers only get single progression spellcasting. (Likewise, I'm not sure how comfortable I am using Wizard or Sorcerer spell recovery mechanics for Bard spells.)

Oh damn! Completely missed Grod's post the first round of replies. Sorry about that.

To the topic at hand. Coming from 3.5, Gestalting two full casters was usually seen as a not-so-good approach. You still have a single action per round, and past a certain level (around lv 7), you already have more than enough spells for every encounter. This magical level comes later in 5e, but it does come. The biggest problem in 5e, I think, would be high level spells, which are very limited in number.

As Faerie said, a Paladin//Ranger casting like a Full caster seems pretty broken too. Plus the fair point about Pact Magic.

What if pools were separate for levels 1 through 5, and combined for levels 6 through 9? Too complex?

[Nifft]

I wouldn't give more spell slots. Just give the maximum slots, give separate spells known / prepped per class, and let Warlock slots be weird (as they already are in core + multiclassing).

I mean, a level 5 Paladin // Fighter would only get 2 attacks (and NOT count 2x "Extra Attack" as 3 attacks) -- in that same vein, level 5 Wizard // Cleric should have tons of choices, but not double the spell slots.

Not sure about cantrips known, though. I think it's probably okay to allow PCs to get full benefit from all classes.

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Keeping separate class-specific "spells known / prepped" removes the risk of early-access to half-caster lists, even if you combine slots. If you can't think of an elegant way to say it, you can just write out what level each half-caster class gets access to each of its 5 spell levels.

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If you disallow multiclassing (which I think is a good idea to disallow), then you don't need the line about ASI limits.

The line about ASI limits seems confusing for Fighters and Rogues.

[heavyfuel]

General question that has just occurred to me: Should we allow multiple Fighting Styles?

- Yes, always
- Yes, if they are granted at different levels
- No

Personally I think "yes, always" is the way to go to make characters more versatile, but that's just me.

I wouldn't give more spell slots. Just give the maximum slots, give separate spells known / prepped per class, and let Warlock slots be weird (as they already are in core + multiclassing).

I mean, a level 5 Paladin // Fighter would only get 2 attacks (and NOT count 2x "Extra Attack" as 3 attacks) -- in that same vein, level 5 Wizard // Cleric should have tons of choices, but not double the spell slots.

Not sure about cantrips known, though. I think it's probably okay to allow PCs to get full benefit from all classes.

===== ===== =====

Keeping separate class-specific "spells known / prepped" removes the risk of early-access to half-caster lists, even if you combine slots. If you can't think of an elegant way to say it, you can just write out what level each half-caster class gets access to each of its 5 spell levels.

===== ===== =====

If you disallow multiclassing (which I think is a good idea to disallow), then you don't need the line about ASI limits.

The line about ASI limits seems confusing for Fighters and Rogues.

I think the biggest problem with combined slots is two half-casters gestalting with other class, which what I think you're proposing in the second segment, but I'm not 100% sure I got what you meant there.

Taking a Ranger//Pally at 5th level. They would have 4 spells knowns (Ranger) and 5 spells prepared (Pally with 14 Cha). But how many spells per day? 4/2 (a single table), 8/4 (both tables added up), or 4/3 (multiclassing table?)

This becomes even crazier if someone decides to gestalt a half-caster with a full caster hahahaha

Good point about the ASI and Multiclassing.

[Nifft]

General question that has just occurred to me: Should we allow multiple Fighting Styles?

+++ Yes, always

I think this won't break anything.

I think the biggest problem with combined slots is two half-casters gestalting with other class, which what I think you're proposing in the second segment, but I'm not 100% sure I got what you meant there.

Taking a Ranger//Pally at 5th level. They would have 4 spells knowns (Ranger) and 5 spells prepared (Pally with 14 Cha). But how many spells per day? 4/2 (a single table), 8/4 (both tables added up), or 4/3 (multiclassing table?)

4/2 (maximum of either)

More versatility, similar maximum power.

This becomes even crazier if someone decides to gestalt a half-caster with a full caster hahahaha

Half // full gets slots as a full, but preparing spells separately could be written to mean you don't get to prepare your half-side spells until you normally would qualify.

So a level 5 Druid // Paladin (oath of ancients ;) ) would not be allowed to prepare level 3 Paladin spells, though up-casting would be fine.

Not sure about Divine Smites, but up-Smiting is probably fine.

[heavyfuel]

+++ Yes, always

I think this won't break anything.


4/2 (maximum of either)

More versatility, similar maximum power.


Half // full gets slots as a full, but preparing spells separately could be written to mean you don't get to prepare your half-side spells until you normally would qualify.

So a level 5 Druid // Paladin (oath of ancients ;) ) would not be allowed to prepare level 3 Paladin spells, though up-casting would be fine.

Not sure about Divine Smites, but up-Smiting is probably fine.

I think this is the best proposition so far, and don't see anything too different coming up. I'll add them to the OP. Thanks!

[heavyfuel]

Ok, so as I was editing the OP I had a flash of inspiration on how to make Pact Magic not be super broken in this system.

You can check the changes I made in the OP.

In a regular game, with multiclassing, Pact Magic and Spellcasting interact weirdly, but overall you're still losing both class' spell progression, so it kind of evens out. However, in a Gestalt game it would allow for double full casting, Pact Magic and Spellcasting.

As such, I changed it so know the player has to choose which magic system they wish to use.

Any feedback is good feedback. PEACH!