Warmage/Rainbow Servant power

[Troacctid]

VS doesn't make you capable of casting spells of one level higher, though.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

VS doesn't make you capable of casting spells of one level higher, though.

Um... That's exactly what it does. That's all that it does.

[Crichton]

VS doesn't make you capable of casting spells of one level higher, though.

Um... That's exactly what it does. That's all that it does.

Looks to me like you two might be talking past each other a tad, without explaining your reasoning/logic.



At first glance, here's my thought:

A) VS lets you cast a spell one level higher than the 2 spell slots you expend, but it also requires that it be a spell you already know.
B) Warmages know all the spells on the Warmage list, up to the level of spell they're capable of casting, and don't learn/know the next higher level until they become capable of casting them.

So you've got a catch-22 situation: VS would let you cast the higher level spell, if you knew them, but Warmages don't know them until they become capable of casting them.


What's still in question is what happens if you somehow learn/know a spell of the next higher level via some other means. At that point, with VS, you can cast it, so maybe that would count as the condition for the Warmage to learn/know the next level of spells from the Warmage list?


Relevant rules quotes (emphasis mine):

You can use two spell slots of the same level to cast a spell you know that is one level higher.

When a warmage gains access to a new level of spells, he automatically knows all the spells for that level listed on the warmage's spell list.

[wilphe]

Except that warmage class description in both MiH and CArc is that they "know" all their spells from the start of the career#

What they gain with experience is the spells slots to use them in

#Eclectic learning excepted.



It's similar to a first level wizard having a spell book with all known spells in it

[Crichton]

Except that warmage class description in both MiH and CArc is that they "know" all their spells from the start of the career#

What they gain with experience is the spells slots to use them in

#Eclectic learning excepted.



It's similar to a first level wizard having a spell book with all known spells in it

Care to share the actual text quote to support that? In my reading, the fluff text introduction to Warmage hints at it sort of vaguely, saying they drill and practice with spells they can't cast yet, but doesn't ever actually say they officially know them, in the rules sense, whereas the actual rules entry for the class, from page 12 of CArc, which I quoted in the post above, seems to clearly say they don't know their spells until they "gain access to a new level of spells"

[MaxiDuRaritry]

The warmage text says this:

Spells: A warmage casts arcane spells (the same type of spells available to sorcerers and wizards), which are drawn from the warmage spell list given below. He can cast any spell he knows without preparing it ahead of time the way a cleric or wizard must. When a warmage gains access to a new level of spells, he automatically knows all the spells for that level listed on the warmage's spell list. Essentially, his spell list is the same as his spells known list. Warmages also have the option of adding to their existing spell list through their advanced learning ability as they increase in level (see below). See page 90 for the warmage's spell list.

It says "When a warmage gains access to a new level of spells"... Doesn't say anything about how, just that they gain access to a new level of them. And, whether we like it or not, Versatile Spellcaster allows one to cast spells of a level higher than what would otherwise be the highest level one could typically cast, even if it costs two lower level slots. So as soon as a warmage takes Versatile Spellcaster, he (or she, or it, or other) knows and can cast the next level of spell, as it's only "gains access to," nothing more or less.

At the very worst, taking Heighten Spell would cinch the deal, since you can cast Heightened versions of your highest level spells regardless of the ability to cast spells that would normally be on that level, thus activating the clause above and allowing you to cast spells of the next higher level.

[Crichton]

The warmage text says this:



It says "When a warmage gains access to a new level of spells"... Doesn't say anything about how, just that they gain access to a new level of them. And, whether we like it or not, Versatile Spellcaster allows one to cast spells of a level higher than what would otherwise be the highest level one could typically cast, even if it costs two lower level slots. So as soon as a warmage takes Versatile Spellcaster, he (or she, or it, or other) knows and can cast the next level of spell, as it's only "gains access to," nothing more or less.

At the very worst, taking Heighten Spell would cinch the deal, since you can cast Heightened versions of your highest level spells regardless of the ability to cast spells that would normally be on that level, thus activating the clause above and allowing you to cast spells of the next higher level.

Heighten might work, maybe? But VS by itself doesn't let you cast spells you don't know, and Warmages don't know/learn the next higher level of spells until they can cast them. Thus the chicken and egg issue we have here.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Heighten might work, maybe? But VS by itself doesn't let you cast spells you don't know, and Warmages don't know/learn the next higher level of spells until they can cast them. Thus the chicken and egg issue we have here.

...Maybe reread what I just said? Just being able to cast a higher level spell gives you knowledge of them, so that requirement fulfills itself when you take Versatile Spellcaster.

I don't even think Heighten Spell is necessary, as you can cast lower level spells using higher level slots, so you'll always have access to spells to cast from them.

[Crichton]

...Maybe reread what I just said? Just being able to cast a higher level spell gives you knowledge of them, so that requirement fulfills itself when you take Versatile Spellcaster.

I don't even think Heighten Spell is necessary, as you can cast lower level spells using higher level slots, so you'll always have access to spells to cast from them.

Setting aside the mildly snarky and unappreciated intro and getting back to a friendly and productive discussion:



That's just it though: You have to already know the spell for VS to enable you to cast it, and you don't yet know any, so you aren't yet able to cast a higher level spell, thus you don't trigger the condition for Warmage's Spells feature to make you learn them.


A level 1 Warmage with VS can't cast any level 2 spells, since he doesn't know any. Thus, he hasn't yet 'gained access to a new level of spells' and so he doesn't learn the level 2 Warmage spells, as per the Warmage 'Spells' rules. If he somehow did know a level 2 spell, he'd be able to use VS to cast it, and that could maybe be 'considered gaining access to a new level of spells', presumably.

That's still not totally ironclad RAW, though, since the rules text doesn't say anything as unambiguous and binding as "When a Warmage can cast any spell of the next higher level..." It leaves plenty of semantic wiggle room for a DM to say no, without altering or violating the text, in letter or in spirit. (Note that I'm not particularly disagreeing with you on this point, just pointing out that it would be equally valid by the letter of the rules text for a DM to rule the other way, too.)

But even assuming that your DM does agree (as do I) that the condition of 'gains access to a new level of spells' would in fact be met by the ability to cast any one spell of the next level, Versatile Spellcaster by itself doesn't let you do that unless you already know one.


Heighten Spell might, maybe get you around this, but it's still contingent on your DM agreeing with the ambiguity of the phrasing in your favor.

[Troacctid]

Crichton took the words right out of my mouth. If you subscribe to the reading that early-entry tricks trigger the next set of known spells, you still need a way to get a spell of that level to kick it off, because Versatile Spellcaster alone doesn't do it.

Heighten Spell is one possible way, maybe, but I would recommend a bloodline feat, as they add all the spells to your spells known list immediately, even if you can't cast spells of that level yet. You should be able to cast them early with Versatile Spellcaster, assuming your DM takes the more generous reading of the rules involved (which of course is not a given).

[Remuko]

I can only take a guess but I think what Maxi is saying is that VS gives you a virtual spell slot of a level above what you can normally cast by expending to lower spell slots. In most classes this is useless since you dont know any spells of the higher level. But Maxi is claiming that because of VS, you have this virtual spell slot (lets say its a lvl 2 one by expending two lvl 1 slots) and since you now "have access" to a second level slot, the class gives you access to the spells on the list of that level, just as if you had unlocked a 2nd level spell slot via level up.

If I'm correct, I can see the logic in it, and think its sound, even if not RAI. (and since RAI isnt what were discussing as far as I know...)

[Nifft]

I can only take a guess but I think what Maxi is saying is that VS gives you a virtual spell slot of a level above what you can normally cast by expending to lower spell slots. In most classes this is useless since you dont know any spells of the higher level. But Maxi is claiming that because of VS, you have this virtual spell slot (lets say its a lvl 2 one by expending two lvl 1 slots) and since you now "have access" to a second level slot, the class gives you access to the spells on the list of that level, just as if you had unlocked a 2nd level spell slot via level up.

If I'm correct, I can see the logic in it, and think its sound, even if not RAI. (and since RAI isnt what were discussing as far as I know...)

VS doesn't give you a virtual spell slot, it only allows you to cast a spell you know by expending two slots of a lower level.

If your guess about what Maxi means is correct, then Maxi is wrong about what VS does.

Of course, it's difficult to say, because ... well, you know ...

[MaxiDuRaritry]

If you're a level 1 warmage with Versatile Spellcaster, you have access to level 2 slots. If you have access to level 2 slots, warmage grants you knowledge of level 2 spells, because you know all of the spells of any level you can cast, and since you have access to level 2 slots, you can cast level 2 spells using them. If you have access to level 2 slots and know level 2 spells, you can cast level 2 spells.

[Nifft]

If you're a level 1 warmage with Versatile Spellcaster, you have access to level 2 slots. If you have access to level 2 slots, warmage grants you knowledge of level 2 spells, because you know all of the spells of any level you can cast, and since you have access to level 2 slots, you can cast level 2 spells using them. If you have access to level 2 slots and know level 2 spells, you can cast level 2 spells.

VS doesn't give you any new spell slots, so this is wrong.

What VS gives you is the ability to cast a spell in a new way (by expending 2x spell slots of -1 level).

There is no higher-level spell slot created. You just cast a spell you know in a slightly different way.

[Crichton]

If you're a level 1 warmage with Versatile Spellcaster, you have access to level 2 slots. If you have access to level 2 slots, warmage grants you knowledge of level 2 spells, because you know all of the spells of any level you can cast, and since you have access to level 2 slots, you can cast level 2 spells using them. If you have access to level 2 slots and know level 2 spells, you can cast level 2 spells.

VS doesn't give you any new spell slots, so this is wrong.

What VS gives you is the ability to cast a spell in a new way (by expending 2x spell slots of -1 level).

There is no higher-level spell slot created. You just cast a spell you know in a slightly different way.

In addition, VS is explicitly clear that it only works for level 2 spells that you already know. Since you don't already know any, you're completely unable to use VS for anything, until you do know some.


Also, there's no such thing as 'virtual slots' and VS doesn't give you any access at all to level 2 slots, in any way at all.

Fortunately for our Warmage, it's not the slots that count. So if you can find any way at all to know a level 2 spell early (such as the previously recommended bloodline feats, or maybe probably Heighten Spell though that's not quite as clear), then VS will become usable, and you can cast a level 2 spell (not from a level 2 slot, though, in any way). Presuming your DM agrees with that being enough to meet the qualification, your Warmage will then meet the conditions for learning all the level 2 Warmage spells.

[AvatarVecna]

VS doesn't give you any new spell slots, so this is wrong.

What VS gives you is the ability to cast a spell in a new way (by expending 2x spell slots of -1 level).

There is no higher-level spell slot created. You just cast a spell you know in a slightly different way.

Seconded.

You can use two spell slots of the same level to cast a spell you know that is one level higher.

There's actually a much easier way to disprove that this combo works: are warmages spontaneous casters?

Versatile Spellcaster requires the "ability to spontaneously cast spells", but the only classes that get spontaneous casting by default definitions are clerics and druids (which can "lose" prepared spells to spontaneously cast cure/inflict/summon spells). There's no general definition of spontaneous casting in the player's handbook, and the only examples are classes where "spontaneous casting" works super-different from how warmages and sorcerers cast, therefore if you're using PH definitions, Warmages can't take Versatile Spellcaster at all.

But let's say you think that's BS, and everybody knows it's BS, and you need a rules quote that clarifies Warmages are in fact spontaneous, or at least generally defines "spontaneous casting" as something that looks like warmage casting. You probably turn to page 139 of the Rules Compendium:

Some characters can cast spells, but they don’t need spellbooks, nor do they prepare their spells. They can cast any spell they know using a daily allotment of spell slots. These characters are called spontaneous spellcasters.

Here it is, first lines of this section, clear as day: a spontaneous caster doesn't prepare spells, they cast spells known using spell slots that aren't assigned to particular spells. That's how sorcerer works, and that's how warmage works, clear as day. There's even a later section on the same page that mentions cleric/druid spontaneous casting as being a subset of spontaneous casting that is an exception to the general rules of how cleric/druid normally cast their spells, so that's extra confirmation.

...wait, what's this? Another section from the very same page?

LEARNING NEW SPELLS
Spontaneous casters gain spells by attaining levels in their class. They never gain spells any other way. When your spontaneous spellcaster gains a new level, consult the class table that details the number of spells the character knows. Select new spells known to fill your repertoire according to the restrictions for your class. Some spontaneous spellcasters know only a specific list of spells, and know all those spells, while others can choose with more flexibility.

OOPS.

[Karl Aegis]

Oops, indeed. Also consistent with the idea that Advanced Learning(Ex) adds to the Warmage's Spell List, but not the Warmage's Spells Known. The spell chosen can still be cast since the ability says you can, even without knowing the spell.

[MeeposFire]

Ah this brings back memories back when I used to be on the 3e char OP boards. Granted it also reminds me how happy I am to not deal with these problems anymore RAW arguments are just so not worth it anymore. Better to ask yourself as a DM is do you feel like this is something you want in the game and how would you like it to work. IN this case though I am not a fan of it either way. Waiting until level 16 to get what you actually want out of a character is awful as a play experience (unless you start at level 16) and so I would not recommend it even if I was in a game that gave this PRC a full 10 level caster progression if your reason to do it is to get full cleric casting.