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  1. - Top - End - #31
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    Default Re: Warmage/Rainbow Servant power

    Quote Originally Posted by Troacctid View Post
    I dunno, I rated the table version as a sidegrade in my warmage handbook. The fact that it gives you a ton of extra known spells even before the capstone helps a lot.
    That's my point, even with lost 9ths it's still extremely good, probably much more than a sidegrade if you're going to play at high levels. It just makes it so that no one will play it except at high levels. I guess I just disagree that inconvenience is a good way of balancing powerful abilities, especially when it sabotages any other conceivable use the class could have. IMO, the problematic ability itself should always be the target of a fix.
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  2. - Top - End - #32
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    Default Re: Warmage/Rainbow Servant power

    The Extra Domain class feature specifically says the spontaneous caster does not get additional spells known. Claiming the Rainbow Servant gets additional spells known is disingenuous.
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  3. - Top - End - #33
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    Default Re: Warmage/Rainbow Servant power

    Quote Originally Posted by Karl Aegis View Post
    The Extra Domain class feature specifically says the spontaneous caster does not get additional spells known. Claiming the Rainbow Servant gets additional spells known is disingenuous.
    On a sorcerer or bard, that'd be true. The question right now is about the warmage though. A warmage's spells known are his entire spell list. By adding spells to the list, you're functionally adding spells to his spells known at the same time.
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  4. - Top - End - #34
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    Default Re: Warmage/Rainbow Servant power

    Quote Originally Posted by Kelb_Panthera View Post
    On a sorcerer or bard, that'd be true. The question right now is about the warmage though. A warmage's spells known are his entire spell list. By adding spells to the list, you're functionally adding spells to his spells known at the same time.
    None of the Rainbow Servant's class features add anything to the warmage's spell list.
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  5. - Top - End - #35
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    Default Re: Warmage/Rainbow Servant power

    Quote Originally Posted by Karl Aegis View Post
    None of the Rainbow Servant's class features add anything to the warmage's spell list.
    When it adds the domains, it adds their spells to the character's spell list. If they had to select spells known, they could select those spells and they can use spell completion and trigger items that contain them. Since a warmage's spell list is his spells known, those domain spells become instantly available to cast.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ThiagoMartell View Post
    Kelb, recently it looks like you're the Avatar of Reason in these forums, man.
    Quote Originally Posted by LTwerewolf View Post
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  6. - Top - End - #36
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    Default Re: Warmage/Rainbow Servant power

    Quote Originally Posted by Karl Aegis View Post
    None of the Rainbow Servant's class features add anything to the warmage's spell list.
    • Good domain
    • Detect Evil
    • Air Domain
    • Fly
    • Law Domain
    • Detect Chaos
    • Cleric spells
    • Detect Thoughts

    IMO this counts as a ton of extra known spells.

  7. - Top - End - #37
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    biggrin Re: Warmage/Rainbow Servant power

    Quote Originally Posted by Elves View Post
    True, same as a lot of classes with particular standout abilities.



    It is RAW, text always trumps table when they disagree.

    "When you find a disagreement between two D&D rules sources, unless an official errata file says otherwise, the primary source is correct. One example of a primary/secondary source is text taking precedence over a table entry."

    The note earlier in the chapter that rainbow servant is "moderate spellcasting" is in a table as well, and even if it were in text it probably wouldn't count as primary source.
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  8. - Top - End - #38
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    Default Re: Warmage/Rainbow Servant power

    Quote Originally Posted by Kelb_Panthera View Post
    When it adds the domains, it adds their spells to the character's spell list. If they had to select spells known, they could select those spells and they can use spell completion and trigger items that contain them. Since a warmage's spell list is his spells known, those domain spells become instantly available to cast.
    That's not how domains work, even on a core cleric. No spells are added to a spell list.
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  9. - Top - End - #39
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    Default Re: Warmage/Rainbow Servant power

    A couple points of order for the thread:

    1) While I know this is hardly considered a smoking gun or anything, considering the usual accuracy of such things, but the sample statblock is a Sorcerer 6/Rainbow Servant 4 with 4th lvl spell slots. This agrees with the table(s), but not with the text.

    2) In regards to the above comments about domains and how they interact with non-clerics:

    Quote Originally Posted by Complete Divine pg 55
    Extra Domain: A rainbow servant gains the granted power and spell access of the Good domain at 1st level, the Air domain at 4th level, and the Law domain at 7th level. The rainbow servant generally uses a multicolored feather of a couatl as her divine focus. For an explanation of how nonclerics receive domain spells, see the Extra Domains section on page 20 of the Complete Divine book.
    Quote Originally Posted by Complete Divine pg 20
    Several of the prestige classes described in this chapter allow a member of that class to select an additional domain, which gives an additional granted power and offers more spells for the character to choose as domain spells. Sometimes a domain is specified, and other times a character can choose from any domains offered by his deity (or can choose any domain if he doesn't worship a specific god).

    If a non-cleric enters a prestige class that allows access to a domain, the character still gains access to the domain. She can use the granted power bestowed by the domain normally. If she memorizes spells like a druid, paladin, or ranger, then she can simply choose to memorize one of that domain's spells instead of one of her usual spells, but never more than one domain spell of each level. If she is a spellcster who keeps a spellbook as a wizard does, then she must find or purchase a scroll of that spell and pay the usual price to scribe the spell into her spellbook. In cases where the spell is only divine the wizard may scribe a divine scroll into his book. The wizard then may memorize one domain spell of each level each day. if the non-cleric is a spontaneous caster like a sorcerer or favored soul, then she may select a domain spell to add to her spells known whenever she would have an option to choose a new known spell. A sorcerer does not get to exceed his normal limit of spells known. Once the domain spell is known, the sorcerer may cast it freely. Unless the prestige class specifies otherwise, such spells are considered arcane spells when cast by arcane spellcasters.
    If we are taking a strict reading of the rules, a warmage is a spontaneous caster, and thus "she may select a domain spell to add to her spells known whenever she would have an option to choose a new known spell". The problem with taking this reading of things is that warmages don't get opportunities to make choices like that - or at least, they don't as part of their standard spellcasting progression. A warmage who gains a new iteration of Advanced Learning could theoretically take a single domain spell from those available to them (provided their progression were something like Warmage 6/Rainbow Servant 1/Warmage +X).

    If we are taking a looser interpretation of the rules and operating on the assumption that the designers either didn't recall or couldn't conceive of a spontaneous caster who doesn't get to choose their spells known. From that perspective, the above paragraph can read very much like "well TeChNiCaLlY a warmage advancing in Rainbow Servant doesn't get to pick spells known, so they never get the chance to access the domain spells", and is unlikely to be well-received. It's not entirely clear to me whether or not designer intention would've been "warmage automatically knows every spell in the domain as soon as it's gained" or not, but I'm absolutely sure that if they'd thought about it, the answer they'd give to how that particular mechanic interacts with warmage wouldn't be "warmage gets nothing haha suck it".


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  10. - Top - End - #40
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    Default Re: Warmage/Rainbow Servant power

    Rules Compendium's section on spontaneous casters unifies the spells known rules enough for me to be comfortable ruling that you get the domain as spells known the same way you get all the other spells on your list.

    The strictest reading would actually be that warmages learn spells when they gain access to a new level of spells. Thus, when you gain the Good domain as a Warmage 6/Rainbow Servant 1, you don't get any spells from it until soon after, when you gain access to 4ths, at which point you learn all the 4th level spells on the warmage list, and, since she "may select a domain spell to add to her spells known whenever she would have an option to choose a new known spell," this is her opportunity, so she could pick any one spell of 4th level or lower from the domain to learn.

    Meanwhile, the 10th level ability allows you to "learn and cast spells from the cleric list, even if they donít appear on the lists of any spellcasting class you have." So, normally, you only learn warmage spells when you gain access to a new spell level. This feature allows you to also learn cleric spells, even though they're not on the warmage list, but doesn't otherwise change the way you gain spells, so you would be able to learn all cleric spells of that level and only that level, because as a warmage, your spell knowledge isn't retroactive. Effectively, the strict reading gives you cleric 8ths and 9ths only.

    I'm being facetious here, of course. The real answer is that this is an ambiguity in the rules, so it falls into the purview of page 6 of the DMG.
    Quote Originally Posted by DMG
    Often a situation will arise that isnít explicitly covered by the rules. In such a situation, you need to provide guidance as to how it should be resolved. When you come upon a situation that the rules donít seem to cover, consider the following courses of action.
    • Look to any similar situation that is covered in a rulebook. Try to extrapolate from what you see presented there and apply it to the current circumstance.
    There's a very obvious comparison hereóall the traditional arcane classes learn granted domain spells (and cleric spells) the same way they learn all their other spells. So, following this extremely obvious precedent, RAW's guidelines lead us to the most commonly accepted ruling: warmages gain all the spells as spells known automatically. 💁

  11. - Top - End - #41
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    Default Re: Warmage/Rainbow Servant power

    Quote Originally Posted by Troacctid View Post
    Rules Compendium's section on spontaneous casters unifies the spells known rules enough for me to be comfortable ruling that you get the domain as spells known the same way you get all the other spells on your list.

    The strictest reading would actually be that warmages learn spells when they gain access to a new level of spells. Thus, when you gain the Good domain as a Warmage 6/Rainbow Servant 1, you don't get any spells from it until soon after, when you gain access to 4ths, at which point you learn all the 4th level spells on the warmage list, and, since she "may select a domain spell to add to her spells known whenever she would have an option to choose a new known spell," this is her opportunity, so she could pick any one spell of 4th level or lower from the domain to learn.

    Meanwhile, the 10th level ability allows you to "learn and cast spells from the cleric list, even if they donít appear on the lists of any spellcasting class you have." So, normally, you only learn warmage spells when you gain access to a new spell level. This feature allows you to also learn cleric spells, even though they're not on the warmage list, but doesn't otherwise change the way you gain spells, so you would be able to learn all cleric spells of that level and only that level, because as a warmage, your spell knowledge isn't retroactive. Effectively, the strict reading gives you cleric 8ths and 9ths only.

    I'm being facetious here, of course. The real answer is that this is an ambiguity in the rules, so it falls into the purview of page 6 of the DMG.

    There's a very obvious comparison hereóall the traditional arcane classes learn granted domain spells (and cleric spells) the same way they learn all their other spells. So, following this extremely obvious precedent, RAW's guidelines lead us to the most commonly accepted ruling: warmages gain all the spells as spells known automatically. 💁
    My point about the strict ruling was that the warmage "may select a domain spell to add to her spells known whenever she would have an option to choose a new known spell", but the warmage basically never has "an option to choose a new known spell". The warmage has points where she learns a batch of new spells for sure, but there is no picking and choosing about it. You might squint and look at it sideways and say "well, you chose to level up as warmage" or "well, you chose to advance your warmage casting", but that feels like it's stretching the definition to get around an unfriendly rule that was clearly not written with warmage and the like in mind.

    It's hardly the reading I'd take as a DM, but it seems the strictest reading of the text to me.


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  12. - Top - End - #42
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    Default Re: Warmage/Rainbow Servant power

    One compromise you might want to discuss with your GM - Pathfinder has a feat called Prestigious Spellcaster that can be used to repair one level of lost casting from a PrC every time it's taken. Your GM might be more amenable to you using the class if you go with the table interpretation, then pay some of your precious feats for the privilege of making it full (or nearly-full) casting. Given that you'd become a full casting class, you should have plenty of feats to spare.

    Quote Originally Posted by el minster View Post
    So, there are plenty of PrCs which are next to useless.
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    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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  13. - Top - End - #43
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    Default Re: Warmage/Rainbow Servant power

    Once you take the first level of Rainbow Servant, you can use Substitute Domain (Complete Champion) either via Extra Spell to add it to your list or by UMDing a wand of it, to swap out the Good Domain for a different one offered by your deity for a few days, which gives you a decent amount of versatility nine levels before you can hit the capstone.

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    Default Re: Warmage/Rainbow Servant power

    Warmages don't learn all spells they have access to.
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    Default Re: Warmage/Rainbow Servant power

    Quote Originally Posted by Karl Aegis View Post
    Warmages don't learn all spells they have access to.
    Their spell list is their spells known. They can cast any spell on their list, depending on their max spell level, of course. Add spells to that list and they can cast them. A level in sand shaper, for instance, gives them every single sand shaper spell known.

    The question is if adding domains to the warmage adds it to their spells known. By strictest RAW, no, but it wasn't written with them in mind, so it's the DM's call.
    Last edited by MaxiDuRaritry; 2020-05-23 at 01:19 AM.
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    Default Re: Warmage/Rainbow Servant power

    Quote Originally Posted by MaxiDuRaritry View Post
    Their spell list is their spells known. They can cast any spell on their list, depending on their max spell level, of course. Add spells to that list and they can cast them. A level in sand shaper, for instance, gives them every single sand shaper spell known.

    The question is if adding domains to the warmage adds it to their spells known. By strictest RAW, no, but it wasn't written with them in mind, so it's the DM's call.
    Sand Shaper adds directly to spells known. Sand Shaper does not add to spell list.

    Warmages cast from their spells known. A special exception is given to Advanced Learning (Ex) class feature. At no point does the Warmage entry claim a Warmage casts from Spell List or all spells they have access to.
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    Default Re: Warmage/Rainbow Servant power

    Quote Originally Posted by Karl Aegis View Post
    Sand Shaper adds directly to spells known. Sand Shaper does not add to spell list.

    Warmages cast from their spells known. A special exception is given to Advanced Learning (Ex) class feature. At no point does the Warmage entry claim a Warmage casts from Spell List or all spells they have access to.
    The class is very specific about having all spells on its list as spells known.

    Spells: A warmage casts arcane spells (the same type of spells available to sorcerers and wizards), which are drawn from the warmage spell list given below. He can cast any spell he knows without preparing it ahead of time the way a cleric or wizard must. When a warmage gains access to a new level of spells, he automatically knows all the spells for that level listed on the warmage's spell list. Essentially, his spell list is the same as his spells known list. Warmages also have the option of adding to their existing spell list through their advanced learning ability as they increase in level (see below). See page 90 for the warmage's spell list.
    Last edited by MaxiDuRaritry; 2020-05-23 at 01:40 AM.
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    Default Re: Warmage/Rainbow Servant power

    Quote Originally Posted by Karl Aegis View Post
    Warmages cast from their spells known. A special exception is given to Advanced Learning (Ex) class feature. At no point does the Warmage entry claim a Warmage casts from Spell List or all spells they have access to.
    As noted, that's not actually how it works. The Advanced Learning class feature adds the spell "to your list". It does not make a special exception, it is phrased in the exact way you would expect it to be phrased if Warmages cast all the spells on their spell list, because Warmages do in fact cast all the spells on their spell list.

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    Default Re: Warmage/Rainbow Servant power

    It's true that one of the principles in the rules is that text trumps table. It's also one of the principles in the rules, an even more fundamental principle, that correct material trumps typos. That's not always useful as a principle, because it's often not clear which of two disagreeing rules is the typo... but in this case, it's abundantly clear. The table, introduction, sample character, and translations into other languages all agree, and it's only one place that disagrees. Arguing that Rainbow Servant grants full casting progression is like arguing that the scorpion-tail whip from Sandstorm does 1d43 damage (1d33 for small).

    And as an aside, why does everyone always mention the swordsage's starting skills, but not their level 13 and 17 BAB?
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    Default Re: Warmage/Rainbow Servant power

    Quote Originally Posted by Chronos View Post
    It's also one of the principles in the rules, an even more fundamental principle, that correct material trumps typos.
    That's a meaningless sentence.

    However I'm totally ready to admit that content matters. It's NOT just about blind enforcement of RAW. The scorpion whip is obviously out of wack with every other weapon in the game. Even in a case like the Martial Monk ACF in Dragon 310, which technically lets you take any fighter feat at 1st level without meeting prerequisites, it's clear what the RAI actually was, and I think you should use it. The difference in the case of rainbow servant is that the RAW version is cooler and more balanced than what they probably intended, which is why the fact that it is RAW should be embraced not stifled.

    and translations into other languages all agree
    Source? All I saw back when I looked this up was that the Portuguese version actually had the table conform with the text.
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    Default Re: Warmage/Rainbow Servant power

    The only relevant principle for answering the question "what do the rules say" is "what do the rules say". And since the rules say text trumps table, and the text says full progression, the class is full progression. Anything else is RAI dithering, and at that point the fact that full-progression Rainbow Servant is a more interesting and relevant option than 6/10 is as relevant as anything else.

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    Default Re: Warmage/Rainbow Servant power

    Quote Originally Posted by MaxiDuRaritry View Post
    The class is very specific about having all spells on its list as spells known.
    You bolded some figurative language there. "He can cast any spell he knows without preparing it ahead of time the way a cleric or wizard must." is the relevant line.

    Quote Originally Posted by NigelWalmsley View Post
    As noted, that's not actually how it works. The Advanced Learning class feature adds the spell "to your list". It does not make a special exception, it is phrased in the exact way you would expect it to be phrased if Warmages cast all the spells on their spell list, because Warmages do in fact cast all the spells on their spell list.
    "He can cast any spell he knows without preparing it ahead of time the way a cleric or wizard must." does not support your reading of the text. Advanced Learning (Ex) does not mention adding a spells known.
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    Default Re: Warmage/Rainbow Servant power

    Quote Originally Posted by Karl Aegis View Post
    "He can cast any spell he knows without preparing it ahead of time the way a cleric or wizard must." does not support your reading of the text. Advanced Learning (Ex) does not mention adding a spells known.
    Yes, it doesn't. It adds it to his list. Which is his list of spells known. Are you suggesting that Advanced Learning is dysfunctional, or conceding? Because you're doing one of those two things, since there is no internally consistent interpretation of the rules where Advanced Learning works, but domains don't.

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    Default Re: Warmage/Rainbow Servant power

    I recall fluffwise Warmages learn all their spells when taking the first level of the class, because their training explicitly involves practicing the somatic components of spells they aren't able to cast yet...

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    Default Re: Warmage/Rainbow Servant power

    One neat thing about warmages is that the Versatile Spellcaster feat allows you to cast spells of levels you otherwise couldn't cast yet. Sanctum Spell does it too, I think. And they stack!
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    Default Re: Warmage/Rainbow Servant power

    Quote Originally Posted by MaxiDuRaritry View Post
    One neat thing about warmages is that the Versatile Spellcaster feat allows you to cast spells of levels you otherwise couldn't cast yet. Sanctum Spell does it too, I think. And they stack!
    It doesn't, because you don't learn the spells until you gain access to spells of that level.

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    Default Re: Warmage/Rainbow Servant power

    Quote Originally Posted by Troacctid View Post
    It doesn't, because you don't learn the spells until you gain access to spells of that level.
    See the post you just quoted.
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    Default Re: Warmage/Rainbow Servant power

    Quote Originally Posted by MaxiDuRaritry View Post
    See the post you just quoted.
    ???
    Quote Originally Posted by Troacctid View Post
    Rules Compendium's section on spontaneous casters unifies the spells known rules enough for me to be comfortable ruling that you get the domain as spells known the same way you get all the other spells on your list.

    The strictest reading would actually be that warmages learn spells when they gain access to a new level of spells. Thus, when you gain the Good domain as a Warmage 6/Rainbow Servant 1, you don't get any spells from it until soon after, when you gain access to 4ths, at which point you learn all the 4th level spells on the warmage list, and, since she "may select a domain spell to add to her spells known whenever she would have an option to choose a new known spell," this is her opportunity, so she could pick any one spell of 4th level or lower from the domain to learn.

    Meanwhile, the 10th level ability allows you to "learn and cast spells from the cleric list, even if they donít appear on the lists of any spellcasting class you have." So, normally, you only learn warmage spells when you gain access to a new spell level. This feature allows you to also learn cleric spells, even though they're not on the warmage list, but doesn't otherwise change the way you gain spells, so you would be able to learn all cleric spells of that level and only that level, because as a warmage, your spell knowledge isn't retroactive. Effectively, the strict reading gives you cleric 8ths and 9ths only.

    I'm being facetious here, of course. The real answer is that this is an ambiguity in the rules, so it falls into the purview of page 6 of the DMG.
    Quote Originally Posted by DMG
    Often a situation will arise that isnít explicitly covered by the rules. In such a situation, you need to provide guidance as to how it should be resolved. When you come upon a situation that the rules donít seem to cover, consider the following courses of action.
    • Look to any similar situation that is covered in a rulebook. Try to extrapolate from what you see presented there and apply it to the current circumstance.
    There's a very obvious comparison hereóall the traditional arcane classes learn granted domain spells (and cleric spells) the same way they learn all their other spells. So, following this extremely obvious precedent, RAW's guidelines lead us to the most commonly accepted ruling: warmages gain all the spells as spells known automatically. 💁
    Are you talking about my quote from the DMG?

  29. - Top - End - #59
    Orc in the Playground
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    Dec 2019

    Default Re: Warmage/Rainbow Servant power

    That interpretation also breaks Advanced Learning. If you only get the new spells when you get a new spell level, then you never get your Advanced Learning spells, because they're all of levels you already had access to.

    Also, I don't see how that really conflicts with what Max is saying. If we do accept that "new spell level" is the only thing that gets you new spells, then why doesn't Versatile Spellcaster count for that?

  30. - Top - End - #60
    Troll in the Playground
     
    MaxiDuRaritry's Avatar

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    Dec 2015
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    Default Re: Warmage/Rainbow Servant power

    Versatile Spellcaster allows you to expend two slots to cast spells one level higher. Warmages know any spell of a level they're capable of casting. And if V.S. makes you capable of casting spells one level higher than normal, then [insert logical conclusion here]...

    Meanwhile, Sanctum Spell reduces the level of any spell cast outside your sanctum by 1.
    Last edited by MaxiDuRaritry; 2020-05-23 at 11:17 PM.
    Tanuki in the Playground.

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