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  1. - Top - End - #31
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    Default Re: Is bad space opera perpetuating the stigma around space sci fi on TV?

    In regards to the whole animated space sci-fi show, what about Voltron: Legendary Defender? I didn't watch all of it, but it seemed pretty decent. It's pretty recent, but I think it concluded a year or two ago.

    I'd name others, but nothing really comes to mind. Space opera isn't really my genre, and I don't watch a whole lot of animation. As a general rule, in science fiction I prefer scenes to be dry conversation and my spaceship battles to be pointlessly dull and abrupt, which basically rules out the genre for my particular taste.

    As far as animated shows go, I think it's sort of a self-reinforcing problem. I avoided giving Bojack Horseman a try because I had made a natural assumption it would just be another one of those dime-a-dozen juvenile ADHD edgelord shows. And it's probably the most mature show I've seen in a long time, animated or not. I wouldn't really describe that as a personal bias against animation, more of an educated (wrong) guess about the maturity level of shows that settle on becoming animated and aimed at "an older audience". In short, I think the choice to be animated tends to be as much as for marketing purposes as it is for budgetary purposes.

    I don't think it's about holding the medium in contempt more than it is about people sort of expecting animation to mean a certain thing and it also usually being a justified expectation. So a "serious, adult" animated sci-fi show would probably, fair or not, have to overcome my inclined indifference towards it.
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    Default Re: Is bad space opera perpetuating the stigma around space sci fi on TV?

    Quote Originally Posted by Palanan View Post
    I didn't realize she was in it, but somehow that feels all the more tragic. Seems like she hasn't done much that's great after BSG.

    There was a standalone movie, something-something-2388 or whatever, for which even the trailer was absolutely painful. Some of the BSG actors managed to keep their momentum (notably Grace Park) but others just fizzled.

    At least Katie Sackhoff had a recurring role in Clone Wars, so that was something.
    She's going to be reprising her role in The Mandalorian as well, I believe. Marking what may be the first time a voice actor has jumped to live action while keeping the same role? Only one I know of, anyway.

  3. - Top - End - #33
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    Default Re: Is bad space opera perpetuating the stigma around space sci fi on TV?

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  4. - Top - End - #34
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    Default Re: Is bad space opera perpetuating the stigma around space sci fi on TV?

    I don't think the quality of the special effects make that much difference.

    Yes, these days we are mainly used to good quality effects, but look at old BBC SciFi dramas, some of them had terrible special effects (really low budget) but were still regarded as good shows.

    Now if a show is bad, poor special effects will make it worse, but good ones won't save it.
    If a show is good, good special effects will help, but poor ones only become "quirky" or "something to laugh at" while people still enjoy the show.

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    Default Re: Is bad space opera perpetuating the stigma around space sci fi on TV?

    Quote Originally Posted by gomipile View Post
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  6. - Top - End - #36
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    Default Re: Is bad space opera perpetuating the stigma around space sci fi on TV?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kitten Champion View Post
    The problem with this is the suggestion that Sci-Fi or even Space Operas aren't popular. In 2019 there were two Star Trek shows, a major Star Wars small-screen adaptation. We also had another season of West World, Lost in Space, Doctor Who, Altered Carbon, Black Mirror, The Orville, and The Expanse. Whether you like them or not these aren't cheap rinky-dink productions either, largely due to streaming services upping budgets to bring in subscribers.

    As a result this has been as populous a line-up of SF as ever in the history of the medium, in a decade where television has vastly improved in overall quality.

    What we don't have is prime-time television SF, and that's completely unremarkable. Of course network television is going to make sitcoms, cop shows, medical dramas, reality/game shows, and your cornerstone NCISeses. It's a cheap-ish and reliable means of running your network. Add in some on-trend nostalgic remakes of old shows like McGuyver or Magnum PI, and you have the range of what's to be expected from television in the last decade especially. We're still getting marquee SF content where it makes more sense financially.
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  7. - Top - End - #37
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    Default Re: Is bad space opera perpetuating the stigma around space sci fi on TV?

    Quote Originally Posted by warty goblin View Post
    Hey! Stop getting in the way of the nerd persecution complex with your data and logic!
    {scrubbed}

    Let's just be content that we have a plethora of options in the realm of small-screen speculative fiction and not make tired generalizations about people who aren't as into genre fiction as you may be.
    Last edited by Peelee; 2020-06-07 at 08:49 PM.

  8. - Top - End - #38
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    Default Re: Is bad space opera perpetuating the stigma around space sci fi on TV?

    Quote Originally Posted by Khedrac View Post
    I don't think the quality of the special effects make that much difference.

    Yes, these days we are mainly used to good quality effects, but look at old BBC SciFi dramas, some of them had terrible special effects (really low budget) but were still regarded as good shows.
    They had excellent writing! You can get other things by throwing money at the production - high-rate actors, special effects, etc. But good writing isn't simply a matter of money. There are great writers who would love to work for a fraction of what the other aspects of production get.

    Classic Doctor Who had very little budget, had very rudimentary special effects, and was sometimes silly. But sometimes it was utterly brilliant - even in the same episode with the silly stuff.
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  9. - Top - End - #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Palanan View Post
    Well, the purpose of a battlestar is to put its birds in the air, and most of the main characters were fighter pilots, so BSG by definition was heavy on the fighters.

    That said, I seem to recall an abundance of fighters on B5 as well. I even have some of the model kits with custom decals, representing different paint jobs for the presidential escort fighters, the Walter Koenig evil telepath fighters, etc. etc.

    The more I think about it, the more fighters I remember from that show. Just sayin’.
    But interestingly, both B5 and BSG had their "capital ship" moments. B5 was upgraded to be a match for a heavy Earth Force Cruiser, and is able to hold it's own.

    BSG is even more extreme. It is modeled more on the WW2 carriers, which packed a good deal of firepower (as opposed to moder carriers which primarily rely on the other ships for protection). But Galactica (and Pegasus) were regularly able to go toe to toe with Cylon base Ships and win at equal odds.

    Interestingly, in BSG the only large military ships the Colonials have (at least that we ever see) are battlestars. There are a few different classes of Battlestars, but you never hear of smaller military ships except for Vipers and Raptors.
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  10. - Top - End - #40
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    Default Re: Is bad space opera perpetuating the stigma around space sci fi on TV?

    Originally Posted by Caledonian
    Classic Doctor Who had very little budget, had very rudimentary special effects, and was sometimes silly. But sometimes it was utterly brilliant - even in the same episode with the silly stuff.
    Doctor Who is very much an acquired taste. I’ve tried watching a number of episodes with a number of different Doctors, and they all seem to be deliberately cheesy and ridiculous.

    I can see how people might enjoy that, but I just don’t. Tried watching the new one with Ms. Doctor and it was much the same. The writing, if it was there, was drowned out by the goofy, the absurd, and the quiet dripping from the overchewed scenery.

    Originally Posted by tomandtish
    But Galactica (and Pegasus) were regularly able to go toe to toe with Cylon base Ships and win at equal odds.
    Definitely there was some capital action in that show, and the colonial heavies did represent. Not sure about regularly, but on occasion when their backs were against the wall, yes.

    And they might have won, but at a massive cost, since those engagements usually resulted in one or more civilian ships being lost, as well as ever-mounting damage to the battlestars. They tended to avoid capital engagements if they could.

    Originally Posted by tomandtish
    Interestingly, in BSG the only large military ships the Colonials have (at least that we ever see) are battlestars. There are a few different classes of Battlestars, but you never hear of smaller military ships except for Vipers and Raptors.
    Very true, although in the main series we’re limited to what Galactica had aboard when the Cylons first attacked. There were probably a lot of support ships of different classes that were at the shipyards or otherwise caught in the suprise attack.

    I can’t recall offhand if there was anything more shown in Razor. I recall a couple shots of the shipyard where Pegasus was docked, but if there was anything else it was only onscreen for a second or two.

    There was a smaller cruiser shown in Blood & Chrome, but I don’t remember if it was a military vessel or a civilian transport modified for a special mission. And one of the spinoffs—Razor, Plan, B&C—had a couple shots of broken battlestars drifting in their own debris fields, but those were all capital ships.

  11. - Top - End - #41
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    Default Re: Is bad space opera perpetuating the stigma around space sci fi on TV?

    Quote Originally Posted by Palanan View Post
    Doctor Who is very much an acquired taste. I’ve tried watching a number of episodes with a number of different Doctors, and they all seem to be deliberately cheesy and ridiculous.

    I can see how people might enjoy that, but I just don’t. Tried watching the new one with Ms. Doctor and it was much the same. The writing, if it was there, was drowned out by the goofy, the absurd, and the quiet dripping from the overchewed scenery.



    Definitely there was some capital action in that show, and the colonial heavies did represent. Not sure about regularly, but on occasion when their backs were against the wall, yes.

    And they might have won, but at a massive cost, since those engagements usually resulted in one or more civilian ships being lost, as well as ever-mounting damage to the battlestars. They tended to avoid capital engagements if they could.



    Very true, although in the main series we’re limited to what Galactica had aboard when the Cylons first attacked. There were probably a lot of support ships of different classes that were at the shipyards or otherwise caught in the suprise attack.

    I can’t recall offhand if there was anything more shown in Razor. I recall a couple shots of the shipyard where Pegasus was docked, but if there was anything else it was only onscreen for a second or two.

    There was a smaller cruiser shown in Blood & Chrome, but I don’t remember if it was a military vessel or a civilian transport modified for a special mission. And one of the spinoffs—Razor, Plan, B&C—had a couple shots of broken battlestars drifting in their own debris fields, but those were all capital ships.
    During the miniseries, they make specific note that they've lost 30 Battlestars in the opening attack, and that this is 1/4 of the fleet. I strongly suspect that if they used smaller ships the ratio would be much higher. So I suspect it is Battlestars, Vipers, and Raptors.

    Regarding damage to the Battlestar over time, you hit probably the one thing I hated most as the show ended. She's slowly breaking down. Not because of the damage she's taken without dry dock opportunities, but because yard workers apparently took shortcuts in building her. That really pissed me off as it seemed to cheapen what she'd been through. Much better to just say that the damage has added up over time.
    Last edited by tomandtish; 2020-05-21 at 08:57 PM.
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  12. - Top - End - #42
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    Originally Posted by tomandtish
    She's slowly breaking down. Not because of the damage she's taken without dry dock opportunities, but because yard workers apparently took shortcuts in building her.
    I'd have to watch that part again. I think this was when Galen was essentially consulting for Adama rather than being part of the crew per se.

    But I'm pretty sure the rough treatment factored into it, both from repeated Cylon attacks (including direct nuke hits) and some of their more interesting combat tactics, in particular falling like a brick through New Caprica's atmosphere. (Still one of the most awesome moves in SF history.)

    By the time Galactica made her final jump it had all added up. I'd have to go through fourth season again to catch the exact quote. Sadly I had a work deadline during the recent marathon on BBC America, or I'd be more up on this.

  13. - Top - End - #43
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    Default Re: Is bad space opera perpetuating the stigma around space sci fi on TV?

    What stigma? Space sci-fi has seen film after film, broken into TV repeatedly and TV like formats on streaming services even more, and to the extent it's dismissed in the context of literary fiction (which is a phenomenon both overstated and contextualized by a lot of dismissing of literary fiction by sci-fi fans) that's not exactly a differentiating factor between it and most other TV. "This sci-fi is a frivolous genre, unlike cop and medical dramas" is what you might call a fringe position.

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    Furthering the comment that American studios see animation as for kids: they did make an animated sci-fi drama. It's called Star Wars: The Clone Wars. But whatever one thinks of its cross-category appeal, it was still clearly made for kids.
    On the other hand there's also Love, Death, Robots. It's an anthology with a pretty wide range in most respects, but not being for kids is a bit of a throughline for every story in it. American animation hasn't been aimed exclusively at kids for decades now. Sure, it's a bit of an outlier as works go, but it wasn't exactly a small budget production and it's not the animation that makes it weird but the anthology format, which almost never shows up in film.
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    Default Re: Is bad space opera perpetuating the stigma around space sci fi on TV?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kitten Champion View Post
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    Default Re: Is bad space opera perpetuating the stigma around space sci fi on TV?

    The Mod on the Silver Mountain: Please do not accuse other users of being bots. If you suspect an account breaks the Forum Rules, the best course of action is to report it for the moderator team to investigate.
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    Default Re: Is bad space opera perpetuating the stigma around space sci fi on TV?

    What if we think someone unspecified that we aren't going to name is a bot, but that bot is not really breaking the forum rules and creating useful discussions, and we mainly want to talk about how awesome it is that we have spambots that can create reasonable discourse now?
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    Default Re: Is bad space opera perpetuating the stigma around space sci fi on TV?

    Quote Originally Posted by Eldan View Post
    What if we think someone unspecified that we aren't going to name is a bot, but that bot is not really breaking the forum rules and creating useful discussions, and we mainly want to talk about how awesome it is that we have spambots that can create reasonable discourse now?
    There's nothing wrong with discussing the capabilities of bots making or engaging in useful discussions, but I would advise against even coyly implying that other users, even if unnamed, are bots, regardless of whether it's meant pejoratively or admiration.
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    Default Re: Is bad space opera perpetuating the stigma around space sci fi on TV?

    Quote Originally Posted by Palanan View Post
    Doctor Who is very much an acquired taste. I’ve tried watching a number of episodes with a number of different Doctors, and they all seem to be deliberately cheesy and ridiculous.

    I can see how people might enjoy that, but I just don’t. Tried watching the new one with Ms. Doctor and it was much the same. The writing, if it was there, was drowned out by the goofy, the absurd, and the quiet dripping from the overchewed scenery.
    Try the episode "Midnight". It's very unlike much of Doctor Who, yet excellent.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Caledonian View Post
    Try the episode "Midnight". It's very unlike much of Doctor Who, yet excellent.
    That was a great one. Also "Don't Blink". Very little Doctor in that one, actually. I also endorse these two even after some rather severe Doctor Who fatigue.
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    Default Re: Is bad space opera perpetuating the stigma around space sci fi on TV?

    Heaven Sent has pretty much just the Doctor in it and it easily features among the best episodes of the entire show from 1963 to 2019.
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  22. - Top - End - #52
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    Default Re: Is bad space opera perpetuating the stigma around space sci fi on TV?

    Dark Matter started good, and then went down the drain.
    Killjoys was good from...Well, close-to-start, all the way to finish.
    The Expanse was dumb. Then it got good.
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    Default Re: Is bad space opera perpetuating the stigma around space sci fi on TV?

    Agreed to these 3 being amazing.

    Though to understand and fully appreciate heaven Sent, one more or elss needs to know a lot about the Dr. already.


    As for the original Topic: WHile ScinceFantasy has kind of achieved a full market penetration, its still not seen as Mainstream even for the cases where it clearly is.
    Wha tis it that asinine Action, boring Semihistorical Drama and clicheed Romance have that that genre just doesnt, one must ask?
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    Default Re: Is bad space opera perpetuating the stigma around space sci fi on TV?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post
    Dark Matter started good, and then went down the drain.
    Killjoys was good from...Well, close-to-start, all the way to finish.
    The Expanse was dumb. Then it got good.
    I respectfully disagree. Dark Matter was amazing from start to finish and I was very upset that it got cancelled. Killjoys, on the other hand, started out interesting and got stupid very quickly.

    I never watched The Expanse.

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    Default Re: Is bad space opera perpetuating the stigma around space sci fi on TV?

    The Expanse was never "dumb." It's intelligent and very well done.

    The first season was a very slow burn, and they focused a little too much on the future-noir detective and his odd obsession with a particular missing person. But the second season ramped up the action and the third season was outstanding.

    Sadly I haven't been able to watch the fourth season, but I have high expectations for whenever I'm able to.

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    Default Re: Is bad space opera perpetuating the stigma around space sci fi on TV?

    Honestly I liked the first season of the expanse more than the following seasons. The mystery was actually really intriguing but since they have sort of focused to much on people I care less about, still good but less so.

    I do hope they don't focus to much on the new guy from last season and he ends up being built up for nothing and actually start focusing on the ancients again. If his stupid plan actually succeeds I might actually stop watching.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post
    Dark Matter started good, and then went down the drain.
    Killjoys was good from...Well, close-to-start, all the way to finish.
    The Expanse was dumb. Then it got good.

    Dark Matter started good, and stayed fairly good, but wobbled.
    Killjoys...eh...ok.
    The Expanse was mostly good, but was a very slow burn
    Star Trek Discovery is the worst pile of random sound and images ever
    Star Trek Picard had a dumb story, was too slow and pointless, but had some nice gems
    Battlestar Glaticia started out good and strong, almost hard sci fi...and then wandered lost with no direction


    The thing is it's not Sci Fi, it's modern TV shows. It's easy enough to come up with an idea and maybe half a season....but then most shows wobble, fall and crash and burn. There just does not seem to be a commitment to making a good show, they just want to toss out "a show".

    The worst is few shows can keep up a story, or worse a mystery. The first season often just drags as the show slowly does nothing until the end of the season. Then the next season is mostly lost as they ran of both story and mystery.

    And that many shows do the sad 11 or 13 episodes a season makes it even worse.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    That was a great one. Also "Don't Blink". Very little Doctor in that one, actually. I also endorse these two even after some rather severe Doctor Who fatigue.
    "Don't Blink" is probably one of my favorite episodes of any genre fiction ever. It's high concept done really well, with awesome use of horror tropes and storytelling devices.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post
    Dark Matter started good, and then went down the drain.
    Killjoys was good from...Well, close-to-start, all the way to finish.
    The Expanse was dumb. Then it got good.
    Agreed on Dark Matter and Killjoys, but I still sort of liked The Expanse S1. As people here have said, it was a slow burn and I didn't love the Miller plotline, but I still thought it was cool and they built up the mystery over time.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zarrgon View Post
    Dark Matter started good, and stayed fairly good, but wobbled.
    Killjoys...eh...ok.
    The Expanse was mostly good, but was a very slow burn
    Star Trek Discovery is the worst pile of random sound and images ever
    Star Trek Picard had a dumb story, was too slow and pointless, but had some nice gems
    Battlestar Glaticia started out good and strong, almost hard sci fi...and then wandered lost with no direction
    Absolutely agreed on STD and Picard - what a waste of time. I haven't seen BSG, but I intend to one day.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zarrgon View Post
    The thing is it's not Sci Fi, it's modern TV shows. It's easy enough to come up with an idea and maybe half a season....but then most shows wobble, fall and crash and burn. There just does not seem to be a commitment to making a good show, they just want to toss out "a show".

    The worst is few shows can keep up a story, or worse a mystery. The first season often just drags as the show slowly does nothing until the end of the season. Then the next season is mostly lost as they ran of both story and mystery.

    And that many shows do the sad 11 or 13 episodes a season makes it even worse.
    I think this stems from the fact that a lot of network TV shows can't really commit to a multiple season myth arc by the very nature of the medium they're being broadcast on. Each season is self-contained because there's rarely any certainty that a first season show will get renewed. Then you have to watch individual episode ratings, look at viewership numbers...

    The truth is that if you look at successful TV shows, no matter what kind of genre they're in, either have a very focused premise / idea that they aren't afraid to play with or turn on its head - think more like Breaking Bad - or a wide open concept that allows them to visit lots of different storylines and still maintain focus on a few core plot threads - Game of Thrones is a good example. Arguments about the merits of individual shows is one thing, but a lot of TV shows go with 'safe' ideas that are niche and cool for maybe 1-2 seasons, but fail to innovate and quickly run out of new places to take the story / characters.

    Anyway, that's sort of off topic. To answer the OP's question, I don't think that bad space opera or bad TV are perpetuating the sigma around space sci fi on TV, or at least not any more than the nature of TV as a medium (budgets were mentioned before as a big limiting factor) and the unwillingness of many writers to take big narrative risks with TV.
    Awesome Simurgh avatar by smutmulch!

  29. - Top - End - #59
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    Beholder

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    Default Re: Is bad space opera perpetuating the stigma around space sci fi on TV?

    Quote Originally Posted by NulliusinVerba View Post
    I think this stems from the fact that a lot of network TV shows can't really commit to a multiple season myth arc by the very nature of the medium they're being broadcast on. Each season is self-contained because there's rarely any certainty that a first season show will get renewed. Then you have to watch individual episode ratings, look at viewership numbers...
    Though this is the reason to make a good TV show in the first place. So many shows have a good first couple episodes and then just sort of drift for most of the season. Then have a good ending. And that drift is right where you loose viewers.

    And that is on top of the show just being boring too.

    Quote Originally Posted by NulliusinVerba View Post
    Anyway, that's sort of off topic. To answer the OP's question, I don't think that bad space opera or bad TV are perpetuating the sigma around space sci fi on TV, or at least not any more than the nature of TV as a medium (budgets were mentioned before as a big limiting factor) and the unwillingness of many writers to take big narrative risks with TV.
    There are lots of bad shows....and not just sci fi ones.

  30. - Top - End - #60
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    OldWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Is bad space opera perpetuating the stigma around space sci fi on TV?

    Making good content is really hard. The vast majority of terrible shows / movies / novels / etc. isn't made because creators set out to make something awful; they're trying to make good stuff, and failing.
    Alignments are objective. Right and wrong are not.
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    Chaos: Specific, local, and inconsistent trump general, universal, and consistent.

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