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  1. - Top - End - #1
    Ettin in the Playground
     
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    Default Four Elements Monk (take three)

    Another attempt at the Four Elements Monk!

    This makes it a bit closer to an actual partial caster, but not in the EK/AT way. Borrowing the discipline concept from the Mystic each discipline is a small bundle of thematically linked spells that you can cast using Ki, but you also get actual subclass features too.

    Level 3: Disciple of the Elements
    You know two elemental disciplines of your choice from the list below. You learn one additional elemental discipline of your choice at 6th, 11th and 17th level. Whenever you learn a new elemental discipline, you can also replace one elemental discipline that you already know with a different discipline.

    Elemental disciplines allow you to cast spells using your Ki. See chapter 10 for the general rules of spellcasting. To cast one of these spells, you use its casting time and other rules, but you don't need to provide material components for it. Casting a spell uses Ki points as shown on the table below.

    Spell level Monk level Ki Cost
    Cantrip 3rd 0
    1st 3rd 2
    2nd 6th 3
    3rd 11th 4
    4th 17th 5

    Level 3: Dance of the Tide
    You can use your Deflect Arrows ability on spell attacks that target you and deal Acid, Fire, Cold, Thunder or Lightning damage.

    Level 6: Stoke the Inner Flame
    When you use your Martial Arts die in place of your normal unarmed strike or weapon damage roll, you can also change the damage type to one damage type dealt by a cantrip from the Elemental Disciplines you know.
    Additionally, when you make an unarmed strike you can spend 1 Ki to extend the reach of all your unarmed strikes by 5 feet until the end of your turn.

    Level 11: Flowing Form
    When you use an Elemental Discipline to cast a spell with a casting time of one action, you can spend a number of Ki equal to the level of the spell (minimum 1) to change the casting time to one bonus action.

    Level 17: Seed the Soil
    You can spend 6 Ki to cast Conjure Minor Elementals as an action.

    OR alternatively

    - You don't learn a 5th discipline at level 17
    - During a Short or Long rest you can choose to swap one Elemental Discipline you know for another.
    - Once per Long Rest you can expend 8 Ki to cast Investiture of Flame, Ice, Stone or Wind. For as long as you maintain Concentration you can use a Bonus Action to change the effects of the spell between Fire, Ice, Stone and Wind.

    Elemental Disciplines

    Caustic Scintillation:
    Acid Splash
    Chromatic Orb
    Dragon's Breath
    Elemental Weapon


    Dire Flame:
    Produce Flame
    Burning Hands
    Flaming Sphere
    Fireball


    Heavenly Wave:
    Shape Water
    Create or Destroy Water
    Blur
    Wall of Water


    Immortal Stone:
    Magic Stone
    Earth Tremor
    Earthen Grasp
    Erupting Earth


    Phoenix Wing:
    Control Flames
    Faerie Fire
    Pyrotechnics
    Protection From Energy


    Shaping Summit:
    Mold Earth
    Firm Grounding
    Earthbind
    Meld into Stone


    Storm Dragon:
    Thunderclap
    Thunderwave
    Gust of Wind
    Wind Wall


    Sweeping Torrent:
    Water Whip
    Grease
    Misty Step
    Tidal Wave


    Unbroken Wind:
    Gust
    Fog Cloud
    Warding Wind
    Gaseous Form


    Winter Breath:
    Ray of Frost
    Ice Knife
    Snowball Swarm
    Sleet Storm


    Spoiler: New Spells
    Show

    Water Whip
    Transmutation Cantrip
    Casting Time: 1 action
    Range: 15 feet
    Components: S
    Duration: Instantaneous

    You create a long tendril of water that lashes out at a creature in range. The creature must make a Strength saving throw or takes 1d6 bludgeoning damage and be moved up to 5 feet in a direction you choose.
    The spell's damage increases by 1d6 when you reach 5th level (2d6), 11th level (3d6) and 17th level (4d6).

    Firm Grounding
    1st-level Transmutation
    Casting Time: 1 Bonus Action
    Range: Self
    Components: S, M
    Duration: Concentration, up to 1 Minute

    You erect an earthen barricade around yourself. You gain half cover and advantage on ability checks and saving throws against being grappled, knocked prone or forcibly moved. The spell ends early if you move from your space.


    And cookies for anyone who gets the references of course.

    Edit: Change note for those reading this thread from the start.
    Initially level 17 was a summon elemental capstone, which was changed to the investitures. The 5th discipline learnt at level 17 was also removed and spell progression/cost changed.
    Last edited by Kane0; 2020-06-09 at 11:12 PM.

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    Default Re: Four Elements Monk (take three)

    I like the direction this is heading in; disciplines as a set of spell rather than a single pick.

    Being said I'm not fond of the damage type for spell selection drifting away from the traditional four elements. Thunder and Lightning I can see as having links to / being extensions of the traditional elements, but poison and acid damage shouldn't be part of the mix (Caustic Scintillation), and Faerie Fire is more of a fey/celestial theme than one grounded in elements.
    Four Elements being Earth, Air, Fire, Water; what the Four Elements Monk should be capable of should remain strictly within those bounds.

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    Default Re: Four Elements Monk (take three)

    Well acid started when i made a discipline for ice separate to the two water ones, i figured i’d do the same for acid and earth. Thunder was also sort of separated from air.

    Edit: wait where is the poison? Dragon’s breath? I could swap for Acid Arrow i suppose.

    Faerie fire was an attempt to give some utility spells for the fire category, since it’s almost entirely blasts. It doesnt deal damage nor reference radiance, so i figured it could get by with ‘fire’ in the name.
    Last edited by Kane0; 2020-05-20 at 06:12 AM.

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    Default Re: Four Elements Monk (take three)

    The math seems off.

    You're allowed to spend Ki equal to your Proficiency bonus on a spell. At lv 11, your PB is +4, but casting the 3rd level spells you just got costs 5 Ki. Is this intentional?

    Also, I feel like you need to decide this fluff in order to more consistently create the crunch. Y'see, the 3rd level ability influences all 5 energy types, but the 6th level ability influences only 3. Why? It's Four Elements Monk. I say it should be more consistent. Make both features 3 types, 4 types, or 5 types. It's just confusing otherwise.

    As for the four elements, and their "associated" damage types. Some seem obvious, but other less so:
    Fire = Fire
    Water = Cold
    Air = Lightning? Maybe Thunder?
    Earth = Acid... I Guess? Maybe Posion?

    Dance of the Tide is super flavorful. I love it. Just remove one of the energy types to make it 4.

    Stoke the Inner Flame seems too strong. Letting you choose the type of energy at every hit makes it too easy to benefit from vulnerabilities. I'd chage so you choose one type, and have to spend an action and some Ki (maybe two points) to change it to another type. Also, add one energy type to make it 4.

    Seed the Soil is something I also fear is on the strong side. A 7th level spell equivalent on a short rest basis is something not even a Warlock can do. Reducing the Ki cost to 6 and having the spell be its standard version is probably best. Either that, or make it refresh on a long rest only.

    Oh, and you should also give back the OG 4 elements ribbon, Elemental Attunement, at level 3.
    Last edited by heavyfuel; 2020-05-20 at 09:32 AM.

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    Default Re: Four Elements Monk (take three)

    Quote Originally Posted by heavyfuel View Post
    The math seems off.

    You're allowed to spend Ki equal to your Proficiency bonus on a spell. At lv 11, your PB is +4, but casting the 3rd level spells you just got costs 5 Ki. Is this intentional?
    1/3 Caster:
    1st @ level 3
    2nd @ level 7
    3rd @ level 13
    4th @ level 19

    4E Monk:
    1st @ level 3
    2nd @ level 5
    3rd @ level 13
    4th @ level 17

    It actually gets access to 2nd and 4th level spells before a 1/3 caster on top of being on a SR basis, which i'm concerned about. I could just adjust it so the table specifies what you have access to and remove linkage to Prof bonus entirely, but then 4E would be ahead of a 1/3 caster at all breakpoints.

    Quote Originally Posted by heavyfuel View Post
    Also, I feel like you need to decide this fluff in order to more consistently create the crunch. Y'see, the 3rd level ability influences all 5 energy types, but the 6th level ability influences only 3. Why? It's Four Elements Monk. I say it should be more consistent. Make both features 3 types, 4 types, or 5 types. It's just confusing otherwise.

    As for the four elements, and their "associated" damage types. Some seem obvious, but other less so:
    Fire = Fire
    Water = Cold
    Air = Lightning? Maybe Thunder?
    Earth = Acid... I Guess? Maybe Posion?
    I've set up each element to have two disciplines each, roughly corresponding with an offensive and defensive/utility pairing:
    Fire: Dire Flame & Phoenix Wing
    Air: Storm Wind & Unbroken Wind
    Earth: Immortal Stone & Shaping Summit
    Water: Heavenly Wave & Sweeping Torrent

    The majority of earth and water spells don't deal acid or cold damage, so I separated those into their own disciplines to cover the damage type and provide for those edge cases, as well as bring up the number of disciplines available to 10.

    Quote Originally Posted by heavyfuel View Post
    Dance of the Tide is super flavorful. I love it. Just remove one of the energy types to make it 4.
    There's five because air is a split between thunder and lightning, like as seen on the Storm Sorcerer and Tempest Cleric.

    Quote Originally Posted by heavyfuel View Post
    Stoke the Inner Flame seems too strong. Letting you choose the type of energy at every hit makes it too easy to benefit from vulnerabilities. I'd chage so you choose one type, and have to spend an action and some Ki (maybe two points) to change it to another type. Also, add one energy type to make it 4.
    Ooh yes, that works.

    Quote Originally Posted by heavyfuel View Post
    Seed the Soil is something I also fear is on the strong side. A 7th level spell equivalent on a short rest basis is something not even a Warlock can do. Reducing the Ki cost to 6 and having the spell be its standard version is probably best. Either that, or make it refresh on a long rest only.
    Yeah i'm worried about that too. I probably will tone it down a bit but I don't want the capstone to summon a creature useless at the level you get it.

    Quote Originally Posted by heavyfuel View Post
    Oh, and you should also give back the OG 4 elements ribbon, Elemental Attunement, at level 3.
    That's built into the cantrip options available.
    Last edited by Kane0; 2020-05-20 at 07:52 PM.

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    Default Re: Four Elements Monk (take three)

    Quote Originally Posted by Kane0 View Post
    1/3 Caster:
    1st @ level 3
    2nd @ level 7
    3rd @ level 13
    4th @ level 19

    4E Monk:
    1st @ level 3
    2nd @ level 5
    3rd @ level 13
    4th @ level 17

    It actually gets access to 2nd and 4th level spells before a 1/3 caster on top of being on a SR basis, which i'm concerned about. I could just adjust it so the table specifies what you have access to and remove linkage to Prof bonus entirely, but then 4E would be ahead of a 1/3 caster at all breakpoints.


    I've set up each element to have two disciplines each, roughly corresponding with an offensive and defensive/utility pairing:
    Fire: Dire Flame & Phoenix Wing
    Air: Storm Wind & Unbroken Wind
    Earth: Immortal Stone & Shaping Summit
    Water: Heavenly Wave & Sweeping Torrent

    The majority of earth and water spells don't deal acid or cold damage, so I separated those into their own disciplines to cover the damage type and provide for those edge cases, as well as bring up the number of disciplines available to 10.


    There's five because air is a split between thunder and lightning, like as seen on the Storm Sorcerer and Tempest Cleric.


    Ooh yes, that works.


    Yeah i'm worried about that too. I probably will tone it down a bit but I don't want the capstone to summon a creature useless at the level you get it.


    That's built into the cantrip options available.
    Hmm, I see what you mean with 1/3 caster comparison. Still, the table you put up is misleading. It seems to indicate monks get 3rd level spells at 11th, when in reality they only get them at 13th.

    Ok, I can see now the logic behind the disciplines.

    If you want the capstone to not be a useless monster, simply change it to 1/long rest. Even classes usually focused on short rest abilities have some long rest ones.

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    Default Re: Four Elements Monk (take three)

    Yes, i'll update that.

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    Default Re: Four Elements Monk (take three)

    Minor update, changed up a few spells and cleaned text

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    Default Re: Four Elements Monk (take three)

    3rd and 6th level attacks seem underwhelming.

    For 3rd level, you're vary rarely going to use this. Most monsters are either physical attackers. Some are spellcasters but they'll be most likely casting saving throw 1st+ level spells and not wasting actions on cantrips. They probably are going to target the other spellcasters, too, rather than attack the high AC skirmisher.

    6th level, all of the damage types are worse than your normal attack, which is magical weapon attacks because of the monk's feature. There just isn't enough vulnerabilities to justify changing damage type from magical weapon attacks to these other damage types. You're also locked out of the others for the rest of a fight, so choose wrong and you just won't ever use it.

    11th level seems kinda strong. You can attack twice then cast, well fireball doesn't come online until 13th level, but at that point you're able to BA fireball while handling the front line. I wouldn't want to be an eldritch knight comparing myself to you.

    17th level is probably waaaay too strong. First off, always cast 2 elementals, no myrmidon or genie is able to be worth the extra action economy. Plus, they're so close in challenge rating already.

    And then it can backfire harshly. You're on the frontlines and you run the risk of a broken concentration. If you fail, you now have 2 more enemies after you and you spent 8 ki points to make the fight harder.
    Last edited by Asisreo1; 2020-05-26 at 08:13 PM.

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    Default Re: Four Elements Monk (take three)

    Quote Originally Posted by Asisreo1 View Post
    It's a good homebrew. Very reminiscent of the Mystic disciplines, as I see you drew inspiration from it. I'm not sure "acid" and "lightning" is much of the four-elements. Chromatic orb in particular may be the most elementally versatile spell.

    The cantrips will probably be overlooked except for a few flavor ones as they aren't quite as effective as your unarmed strikes or darts.

    If casting gets spammed, it'll be a problem since now your monk is heavily considering just being a backliner. Then they'll truly be a subpar spellcaster.
    As above most Air, Earth and Water spells that actually deal damage are largely limited to bludgeoning damage so I had to get creative. Ice/Cold is separate from Water in the same way.

    Non-damage cantrips fill the gap left by the Elemental Attunement discipline; access to damage cantrips provides a useful ranged attack option that monks don't commonly have native access to. Importantly they don't cost Ki and allow you to feel like an elemental user all the time. Even if punching leads to more damage most of the time it's an extra option available to you.

    The spam is the leading reason to limit the overall spell level and carefully pick what spells they get access to in these tracks. Utility should be mostly fine and blasty spells balance short rest spammability with slow progression but defensive and BFC spells could be the most broken since many are useful at all levels.

    Quote Originally Posted by Asisreo1 View Post
    3rd and 6th level attacks seem underwhelming.

    For 3rd level, you're vary rarely going to use this. Most monsters are either physical attackers. Some are spellcasters but they'll be most likely casting saving throw 1st+ level spells and not wasting actions on cantrips. They probably are going to target the other spellcasters, too, rather than attack the high AC skirmisher.

    6th level, all of the damage types are worse than your normal attack, which is magical weapon attacks because of the monk's feature. There just isn't enough vulnerabilities to justify changing damage type from magical weapon attacks to these other damage types. You're also locked out of the others for the rest of a fight, so choose wrong and you just won't ever use it.

    11th level seems kinda strong. You can attack twice then cast, well fireball doesn't come online until 13th level, but at that point you're able to BA fireball while handling the front line. I wouldn't want to be an eldritch knight comparing myself to you.

    17th level is probably waaaay too strong. First off, always cast 2 elementals, no myrmidon or genie is able to be worth the extra action economy. Plus, they're so close in challenge rating already.

    And then it can backfire harshly. You're on the frontlines and you run the risk of a broken concentration. If you fail, you now have 2 more enemies after you and you spent 8 ki points to make the fight harder.
    Funny, just above the opposite was said. The level 3 and 6 features are supposed to be more or less ribbons as the disciplines are the main event.

    I'm considering either scaling the cost of the level 11 ability to operate like quicken spell or simply limit to cantrips only, though leaning towards the former to more freely mix martial and elemental arts.

    That's sort of the point of the capstone. Monks have prof in all saves by now and it's a once per day ability, but it's intended to be a little high-risk-high-reward. Myrmidons importantly have magical attacks which are pretty important at this level and could outweigh the action economy benefits of dual regular elementals.

    Quote Originally Posted by MaxWilson View Post
    My initial reaction: interesting idea, I like the paths thing, but getting a bunch of disciplines (each with four spells) AND a bunch of new at-will features seems way overtuned relative to other monks.

    Look at Open Hand for comparison.

    I suppose a counterargument here could be that it's not overtuned relative to Eldritch Knight (bunch of at-will features AND spellcasting at every level bump), but I'd counter-counter with the fact that Eldritch Knights aren't monks, and that a monk subclass's opportunity cost is other monk subclasses, not a fighter subclass.

    If you adopted these rules I think you'd have to revamp all the monk subclasses in response, which is how power creep happens.
    Well counter-argumented, you pre-empted me there. I'll compare to Shadow Monk:

    Level 3:
    Shadow gets a cantrip and four 2nd level spells all of which cost 2 Ki to cast.
    4E gets two cantrips, two 1st level spells and can apply their deflect arrows feature to specific spell attacks, a ribbon for the most part (unless you're fighting mages that love to target you with rays of frost, scorching rays, etc). They also gain two 2nd level spells at level 5 just before the next subclass breakpoint, at a higher cost than shadow's.

    To my eyeball, pretty even in terms of power but 4e gets the edge in choice.

    Level 6:
    Shadow gets short range, at-will teleportation between shadows.
    4E monk gets another cantrip, 1st and 2nd level spell and can make their magical attacks elemental damage, again largely a ribbon due to Ki-Empowered Strikes.

    Again to me in the same ballpark for power but 4E gets more choice.

    Level 11:
    Shadow can turn invisible at-will in shadow until they attack or leave the darkness
    4e monk again gets another cantrip/1st/2nd level spell and can burn extra Ki to cast as a bonus action, keeping their blasts competitive. Importantly their 3rd level spells are unlocked at level 13 before the next breakpoint.

    As above the Ki cost might need to be calibrated here, 1 Ki to turn a 2nd and later 3rd or 4th level spell into a bonus action is probably too cheap.

    Level 17:
    Shadow monk gets free reaction attacks against enemies hit by other creatures
    4e monks get their 5th set of cantrip/1st/2nd/3rd spells plus unlock 4th level slots to cast them in, and get their summon once per long rest.

    This I can see being too far in the 4e monk's favor. I reckon i'll drop Conjure Elemental and just add Conjure Minor Elementals as a free discipline spell. At this level it wouldn't serve much of a combat use but would still feel like something neat if the occasion calls for a bunch of mephits.
    Last edited by Kane0; 2020-05-27 at 04:41 AM.

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    Default Re: Four Elements Monk (take three)

    1)
    Good job! I very much like that you give more choice.

    2)
    I do think Elemental Attunement should be just given.

    3)
    In the same vein, I don't understand why you chose to remove all of the unique abilities from this incarnation monk. They were pretty much my favourite of all of the original 4e monk's abilities (except water whip?). I'd seriously consider putting them back in.

    4)
    Why not drop the minor elemental and give an Investiture of Four Elements. Basically the four investiture spells rolled up in one, where you change between them using a bonus action (changing stances).

    5)
    I like choice, but maybe this is too many options in the end? Compared to ranger or EK? I'd consider capping at 4 disciplines and maybe have your level 17 ability be the ability to change disciplines on a long rest/after X time, while keeping the original moments for access to new spell levels (so fireball at level 11). With a 5th level spell and 4 disciplines, you still have 20 spells and 4/5 cantrips (a Sorcerer gets 15 and 6). Even that might be too many, so maybe only one fifth level spell?
    I might attack your points aggressively: nothing personal. If I call out a fallacy in your argumentation, it doesn't mean I think you are arguing in bad faith. I invite you to call out if I somehow fail to live by the Twelve Virtues of Rationality.

    My favourite D&D session had 3 dice rolls. I'm currently curious to any system that has a higher amount of choices in and out of combat than 5e from the beginning of the game; especially for non-spellcasters. Please PM any recommendations.

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    Default Re: Four Elements Monk (take three)

    I tend to gravitate towards relatively minor modifications to raw. To that end, I think I might like to keep raw, but add an extra discipline known (¿maybe at lvl 6?), and some small buffs based on which ones you know.

    Well, "the token expired" and I lost all of the careful, official-style language I'd written, so here's a simplified version. Tell me if you think it's worth re-writing with proper verbiage. (Letter = element; # = number of that element's disciplines needed)


    A1) If you know at least one discipline that is specifically related to air, you gain the following additional benefits:
    - You know the Gust cantrip.
    - You can Dash at double speed, and Dashing doesn't cause you exhaustion.

    A2) If you know at least two disciplines that are specifically related to air, you gain the following additional benefits:
    - Slow Fall does not require your reaction. You may use your reaction to double the damage reduction from Slow Fall, or to apply the damage reduction to another creature you're holding onto if that creature is no more than twice your weight.
    - As a bonus action, wrap strong, rapidly oscillating winds around all daggers and darts you wield for 1 minute to make them act as magical monk weapons with a +1 per 2 ki points spent. The effect ends on any weapon you aren't holding at the end of your turn. You may also activate this ability as part of your Deflect Missiles reaction, and it applies to any such missiles you throw.


    W1)
    - Shape Water cantrip.
    - When you Disengage while at least a flask's worth of water is within 5 ft of you, you can use it to either make mist heavily obscure that space until the start of your next turn, or make ice spread out on the ground behind you, turning up to 20 ft of the ground you traversed into difficult terrain until the start of your next turn, at which point, you may return it to where it came from.
    W2)
    - You can make your icy difficult terrain slippery enough to force other creatures to make Dex saves to avoid falling prone.
    - You can make nearby water form a tendril that wraps around your free hand, which you can use to make magical unarmed attacks with a range of 10 ft.


    E1)
    - Mold Earth cantrip.
    - While standing on earthen or stony ground, you can replace an unarmed attack with a ground stomp. When you do, a target within 15 ft of you who's standing on the same ground must make a Dex save or be grappled as the ground reaches up to grab its leg. This effect ends at the start of your next turn, or when the target succeeds on a Str (Athletics) check against your ki save DC. Huge and larger creatures have advantage.
    E2)
    - Pebbles become magical ranged monk weapons for you, using Wis as the attack mod and a range of 30/90 ft. They needn't be in your hand, but must be in your space.
    - When you Dodge, you can spend ki to cover parts of your body with nearby rocks, increasing your AC by 1 per 2 ki pts spent for 1 minute.


    F1)
    - Control Flames cantrip
    - Reaction to taking fire or lightning damage to reduce that damage by your Wis mod, to a minimum of 1/2 the damage you would've taken.

    F2)
    - Produce Flame cantrip
    - Reaction when using Evasion to reduce fire or lightning damage: spend 2 ki pts to make 1 target within 30 ft make a Dex save against your ki save DC. If it fails, it takes 1/2 of the damage you Evaded.

    - - - If you know a discipline that has an ambiguous relation to two or more of these elements, then you decide which one to count it as.


    So what do you think? Is this worth re-writing with legit rules language?

    Quote Originally Posted by HPisBS View Post
    True Ninja: the Shadow-Stalker-Assassin
    Last edited by HPisBS; 2020-06-15 at 02:27 AM. Reason: replaced Message with Slow Fall upgrade

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    Default Re: Four Elements Monk (take three)

    Ooh more responses!

    Quote Originally Posted by Skylivedk View Post
    1)
    Good job! I very much like that you give more choice.
    Thanks!

    Quote Originally Posted by Skylivedk View Post
    2)
    I do think Elemental Attunement should be just given.
    It sort of is, just broken up. You can pick up your choice of Control Flames, Gust, Mold Earth and Shape Water as part of your discipline choices which covers the same job and more, just without the prestidigitation effects.

    Quote Originally Posted by Skylivedk View Post
    3)
    In the same vein, I don't understand why you chose to remove all of the unique abilities from this incarnation monk. They were pretty much my favourite of all of the original 4e monk's abilities (except water whip?). I'd seriously consider putting them back in.
    Looking at the PHB disciplines, that would only be Fire Snake, Unbroken Air, Flowing River and Water Whip. Water Whip is already in Sweeping Torrent as a cantrip (thanks for reminding me, have to include the spell description) so we just need one for adding reach.

    Quote Originally Posted by Skylivedk View Post
    4)
    Why not drop the minor elemental and give an Investiture of Four Elements. Basically the four investiture spells rolled up in one, where you change between them using a bonus action (changing stances).
    I thought the same thing but those are 6th level spells and potentially extremely potent. I err'd on the side of caution there.

    Quote Originally Posted by Skylivedk View Post
    5)
    I like choice, but maybe this is too many options in the end? Compared to ranger or EK? I'd consider capping at 4 disciplines and maybe have your level 17 ability be the ability to change disciplines on a long rest/after X time, while keeping the original moments for access to new spell levels (so fireball at level 11). With a 5th level spell and 4 disciplines, you still have 20 spells and 4/5 cantrips (a Sorcerer gets 15 and 6). Even that might be too many, so maybe only one fifth level spell?
    A solid point. I will run a draft and see how it looks.

    Quote Originally Posted by HPisBS View Post
    -Snip-
    Every time I start with 'just a few tweaks' it always ends up being a complete rebuild, maybe it's just the way I brew.
    Anyways, that looks good as well. Start up a thread to hash out the details and make it all official looking?

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