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    Default Brainstorming a setting for a Tier 4 classes only game

    As a thought experiment, I've been looking at the revised tiers list and been thinking about what such a setting would look like using only one tier for all the available classes. Tier 4 (minus Dragon magazine and UA generic classes) inspired me the most, so I went with that.

    Classes: Incarnate, Shadowcaster, Rogue, Barbarian, Scout, Spelltheif, Paladin, Ranger, Ninja, Adept, Fighter, Marshal

    Half the iconic four are present (Fighter, Rogue) which points me in the direction of a setting more in the Sword and Sorcery genre like that of Lankhmar and Conan: episodic adventures, no world-threatening dangers, exotic locals, Arabian Nights, magical monsters and evil sorcerers.

    A full third of the classes are either primitive or at least wilderness-based (Adept, Barbarian, Ranger, Scout). So the world should probably be very wild with vast tracks of untamed lands. Civilization tends to be very tightly concentrated, Points of Light–style city-states/kingdoms (something akin to that described in The Howling Emptiness of the World of Greyhawk by the Hill Cantons blog). Lone rangers tirelessly patrol the borders, warning towns of impending dangers, and tracking down missing caravans. Only rugged barbarian tribes dare dwell far out in the wilderness, aided by their wise women and witchdoctors (Adepts).

    There's also a warfare theme in the classes as well (Marshal, Scout, Ninja). So war is common enough between the Points of Light that there are many former army commanders and scouts (very necessary to aid troops moving from one kingdom to another through the harsh wilds safely). I'm inclined to believe its the Points of Light at war and not monstrous humanoid hordes due to the presence of the Ninjas, which owes itself to an intense layer of intrigue, assassination, and espionage between sophisticated powers. Maybe the kingdoms aren't kingdoms but noble houses/clans/guilds seeking to protect their rice farms and poppy fields and steal those of their neighbors.

    The Shadowcaster falls in with the theme of Points of Light and dark wilds, with the implication that the Plane of Shadow is encroaching upon the world. Perhaps Dark Creatures, Shadow Mastiffs, and the like hunt in the forests. On the surface, it would seem they are diametrically opposed to the Incarnum (the magic of souls/life). Maybe Shadowcasters get a bad rap while Incarnates are thought of more highly (when in reality a quarter of all of them are dedicated to evil) and there are probably more than a few Shadowcasters who use their powers for good.

    While Spelltheif can steal from Adepts, Rangers, Shadowcasters, and Paladins, their own spell list implies, along with the Sword and Sorcery genre above, that there are at least some traditional magicians in the setting, but they would never become adventurers. They are all old and either cynically aloof or crazy, building weird dungeons for unknowable purposes, experimenting on people, and/or traveling the planes leaving their towers to be plundered by those foolhardy enough to try. Spellthieves will try, they've already figured out a little of the wizard's magic themselves, and always game to steal a little more.

    I'm sorta at a loss for Paladins because at first, this doesn't seem like a world which has many gods, or where the gods are very present. The divine magic either comes from communing with nature (Rangers) or some sort of secret traditions passed down through generation (Adepts). I assume they would be the rarest class, as the setting outlined above doesn't necessarily feel like it tolerates traditional heroes very well—the barbarians too chaotic and the ninja-employing nobles too evil.

    What are your thoughts on how to incorporate the Paladin? Do you have any ideas which expand on those outlined above? Or when you look at this list of classes does a completely different setting come to mind?

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    Default Re: Brainstorming a setting for a Tier 4 classes only game

    Quote Originally Posted by LurkytheDwarf View Post
    As a thought experiment, I've been looking at the revised tiers list and been thinking about what such a setting would look like using only one tier for all the available classes. Tier 4 (minus Dragon magazine and UA generic classes) inspired me the most, so I went with that.

    Classes: Incarnate, Shadowcaster, Rogue, Barbarian, Scout, Spelltheif, Paladin, Ranger, Ninja, Adept, Fighter, Marshal
    How about Dragon Shaman, Warlock, Psychic Rogue, and Hexblade?


    Quote Originally Posted by LurkytheDwarf View Post
    What are your thoughts on how to incorporate the Paladin? Do you have any ideas which expand on those outlined above? Or when you look at this list of classes does a completely different setting come to mind?
    Take a page from 5e and have Paladins derive all their power from their Oath.

    (This also allows you to have variant Paladins with different Oaths.)

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    Default Re: Brainstorming a setting for a Tier 4 classes only game

    Originally Posted by LurkytheDwarf
    I'm sorta at a loss for Paladins because at first, this doesn't seem like a world which has many gods, or where the gods are very present.
    I like how you’re approaching the setting overall, and I wouldn’t say that what you’ve described places any limitations on gods per se.

    You mention city-states, which fits the Conan theme very well, and could serve as a parallel to ancient Mesopotamia, where dozens of city-states fought endlessly over borders and trade. Each of those city-states was organized around a temple (or two temples in some cases), which was not only the center of religious activity, but also the economic and administrative hub for the city and its surrounding territory.

    If you incorporate this approach into your setting, then each city-state has its own patron god, with a dedicated priesthood in the city’s central temple. Paladins would thus be the divine agents of each city’s patron god, pursuing the god’s interests—which are by definition the city’s interests—both within the city walls, across the city’s territory and wherever else the city’s interests require intervention.

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    Default Re: Brainstorming a setting for a Tier 4 classes only game

    Quote Originally Posted by LurkytheDwarf View Post
    I'm sorta at a loss for Paladins because at first, this doesn't seem like a world which has many gods, or where the gods are very present. The divine magic either comes from communing with nature (Rangers) or some sort of secret traditions passed down through generation (Adepts). I assume they would be the rarest class, as the setting outlined above doesn't necessarily feel like it tolerates traditional heroes very well—the barbarians too chaotic and the ninja-employing nobles too evil.

    What are your thoughts on how to incorporate the Paladin? Do you have any ideas which expand on those outlined above? Or when you look at this list of classes does a completely different setting come to mind?
    Paladins are normally the rarest core class anyway (see p.139 of the DMG) although they might be even rarer in this kind of setting. I think it suits them quite well in a way: a few dedicated heroes trying to bring law and good to a world full of evil and chaos, they're swimming against the tide but that just makes them more determined.

    If that doesn't work for you, maybe use the Paladin of Freedom variant from UA, for a more flexible version who might fit better into your world.
    Last edited by Biggus; 2020-05-23 at 12:14 PM.

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    Default Re: Brainstorming a setting for a Tier 4 classes only game

    Quote Originally Posted by Nifft View Post
    How about Dragon Shaman, Warlock, Psychic Rogue, and Hexblade?
    In the list I used, they placed Warlock/Psychic Rogue in Tier 3 and Dragon Shaman/Hexblade in Tier 5. Further down the thread they have a brief summary for why every class is where it is. Apparently this revised list was put together by committee.

    Quote Originally Posted by Palanan View Post
    I like how you’re approaching the setting overall, and I wouldn’t say that what you’ve described places any limitations on gods per se.

    You mention city-states, which fits the Conan theme very well, and could serve as a parallel to ancient Mesopotamia, where dozens of city-states fought endlessly over borders and trade. Each of those city-states was organized around a temple (or two temples in some cases), which was not only the center of religious activity, but also the economic and administrative hub for the city and its surrounding territory.

    If you incorporate this approach into your setting, then each city-state has its own patron god, with a dedicated priesthood in the city’s central temple. Paladins would thus be the divine agents of each city’s patron god, pursuing the god’s interests—which are by definition the city’s interests—both within the city walls, across the city’s territory and wherever else the city’s interests require intervention.
    That's a rather elegant solution. I like the idea of the priest hierarchy being more political than crusading; instead they use paladins to enforce their edicts. I think I'd have to open up the Freedom/Tyranny/Slaughter variants to cover all the different alignments of the city-state patrons. That would give you one class which can only be LG/CG/LE/CE and another (Incarnate) which can only be NG/LN/CN/NE, which feels like there could be some friction there to be mined for rival factions.

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    Default Re: Brainstorming a setting for a Tier 4 classes only game

    Originally Posted by LurkytheDwarf
    That's a rather elegant solution. I like the idea of the priest hierarchy being more political than crusading; instead they use paladins to enforce their edicts.
    Glad you liked the suggestion, it seemed to fit what you had in mind.

    Opening up the various paladin variants would work very well for representing the alignments of the different city gods. Alliances between the city-states would probably be tenuous and ever-changing, but they would also still be engaged in trade, both with each other and with other cultures outside their own region.

    Originally Posted by LurkytheDwarf
    So the world should probably be very wild…. Only rugged barbarian tribes dare dwell far out in the wilderness…
    .
    Since you envision immense wild regions across most of the world, there’s also room for a full spectrum of nature-related deities, including gods of forests and rivers, mountains and oceans, as well as gods of the hunt and of wild creatures. There would also likely be a god (or goddess) of the harvest, worshipped by small agricultural settlements not under the direct control of the temple-based religions of the city-states.

    As you mentioned, adepts would be most likely to serve as shamans or priests for these gods, and in some cases rangers might serve as instruments of their divine will, much as the paladins would for the temple-based gods. There are probably a lot of small agricultural settlements scattered in the regions between wilderness on the one hand and the city-states on the other, and these settlements would likely rely on a fair number of rangers for defense.

    Some of the city-states will probably not hesitate to raid the farming settlements for captive labor, and this could lead to a number of scenarios in which the rangers are defending their people against slaving parties led by paladins of the non-good temple gods, who are acting in their city-states’ interests by procuring labor to support their divinely ordained economies.

    There will also most likely be pastoralist nomads, tribes of wandering herders who neither farm crops nor build cities, but rather inhabit areas that others consider wastelands, arid and semiarid regions where life is tough and breeds tough folk. The nomads will trade with both farmers and city merchants, but will occasionally raid them instead, and if conditions become more difficult in their homelands (from drought or tribal unrest) they may become conquerors and take over a series of villages or even a small city-state.

    Individual adventurers may occasionally rise to enough power to do the same—gather followers and take a city-state or a small region for themselves. Everything would be in constant strife and flux, with city-states warring against each other and marauding nomads, agricultural settlements fighting for their freedom and to defend their harvest, with opportunists and freebooters everywhere.

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    Default Re: Brainstorming a setting for a Tier 4 classes only game

    What classes or class roles/party roles do you believe you're missing, if any?
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    Default Re: Brainstorming a setting for a Tier 4 classes only game

    Quote Originally Posted by LurkytheDwarf View Post
    In the list I used, they placed Warlock/Psychic Rogue in Tier 3 and Dragon Shaman/Hexblade in Tier 5. Further down the thread they have a brief summary for why every class is where it is. Apparently this revised list was put together by committee.



    That's a rather elegant solution. I like the idea of the priest hierarchy being more political than crusading; instead they use paladins to enforce their edicts. I think I'd have to open up the Freedom/Tyranny/Slaughter variants to cover all the different alignments of the city-state patrons. That would give you one class which can only be LG/CG/LE/CE and another (Incarnate) which can only be NG/LN/CN/NE, which feels like there could be some friction there to be mined for rival factions.
    If you're willing to use setting books, the Religious Adept from the Eberron Campaign Setting provides a more deity focused adept via a single domain at the cost of familiars. So, you can still have a priestly caste capable of demonstrating not only power, but that they're blessed by their specific deity.

    I've toyed with the tier-limited world idea in the past myself. It brings some interesting ideas to play with. I'm not sure Spellthieves actually can take the Shadowcaster's mysteries, which if they can't could lend them that extra air of menace (it's not even standard supernatural power!!!) though you may want to allow it any way. Still, notice the lack of Arcane spell casters. Given they steal power and cast non-divine magic, I would think a Spellthief would be very mistrusted beyond their basic criminal element. Like Shadowcasters, they defy the divine will of the gods/world.
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    Default Re: Brainstorming a setting for a Tier 4 classes only game

    Hmmmm, I would probably rethink the Warlock in this Setting.

    Both as it fits the "Mortal pactitioning with beings they should not even know" theme often used in Sword and Sorcery AND, if you assume a lower magic World, removing the Warlocks "Craft anything" Feature in msot cases makes it Tierr 4 (if highest) anyway.

    As for the Paladin: Paladins dont need Gods anyway (ven if they are normally associated with them). They are empowered by the pure Law and Good within the Planes and themselves.

    I would even put Paladins as a counterpoint to the "small Cults with flaws" Gods used in S&S Settings if I would use them.

    Just make sure that they are clearedr regarding their COde and "Falling Situatiuons", as the World is usually even more Grey in such Settings, and the Paladins as Beacojns of Light more important, if rarer.


    Overall I like the Feel this seems to be developing.

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    Default Re: Brainstorming a setting for a Tier 4 classes only game

    Quote Originally Posted by Palanan View Post
    Glad you liked the suggestion, it seemed to fit what you had in mind.

    Some of the city-states will probably not hesitate to raid the farming settlements for captive labor, and this could lead to a number of scenarios in which the rangers are defending their people against slaving parties led by paladins of the non-good temple gods, who are acting in their city-states’ interests by procuring labor to support their divinely ordained economies.

    ...

    Individual adventurers may occasionally rise to enough power to do the same—gather followers and take a city-state or a small region for themselves.
    Wow. That is like almost exactly what happens in Conan the Barbarian (1982).

    Quote Originally Posted by Endarire View Post
    What classes or class roles/party roles do you believe you're missing, if any?
    I'm not really considering roles right now, though I guess healing might be in slightly shorter supply. Really just piecing together a campaign setting using the Tier 4 classes as inspiration.

    Quote Originally Posted by Luccan View Post
    If you're willing to use setting books, the Religious Adept from the Eberron Campaign Setting provides a more deity focused adept via a single domain at the cost of familiars. So, you can still have a priestly caste capable of demonstrating not only power, but that they're blessed by their specific deity.

    I've toyed with the tier-limited world idea in the past myself. It brings some interesting ideas to play with. I'm not sure Spellthieves actually can take the Shadowcaster's mysteries, which if they can't could lend them that extra air of menace (it's not even standard supernatural power!!!) though you may want to allow it any way. Still, notice the lack of Arcane spell casters. Given they steal power and cast non-divine magic, I would think a Spellthief would be very mistrusted beyond their basic criminal element. Like Shadowcasters, they defy the divine will of the gods/world.
    Religious Adept is a really good catch. Palanan's city-state temples could have domain adepts (giving them strange spells granted by their unnatural/manmade gods, the nature gods being a bit more passive I would assume) while the barbarian/tribal witches/adepts still have familiars (which flavorwise feels on point). I like the idea of more cloistered clerics in robes who are political schemers than full-plated holy warriors. I also like when they get 8+ level they get lightning bolt instead of fireball, which gives them a sort of Emporer Palpatine–style menace.

    I too am not sure if Spellthieves can take Shadowcaster's powers. If I remember correctly they act like spells for a certain time then become spell-like abilities, and the Spellthief does say something about stealing Warlock spell-like abilities. So maybe. With the adepts really taking on the religious caster roles (and becoming more prevalent in society), I guess I could do away with the sorcerer/wizard npcs altogether. Instead you have spellthieves sort of filling in for them: they would probably be the ones really throwing around enchantments and divination and transmutation, meanwhile stealing the powers of the other casters which leaves them as sort of predatory outsiders to the rest of the magic-users in the setting. They hint at the possibility of wizards/sorcerers in the past, a long dead civilization whose ruins litter the world and hide the magic items they crafted so long ago. A spellthief would just be the last and weakest in the long decaying line of those older, more powerful traditions.

    Quote Originally Posted by GrayDeath View Post
    Hmmmm, I would probably rethink the Warlock in this Setting.

    Both as it fits the "Mortal pactitioning with beings they should not even know" theme often used in Sword and Sorcery AND, if you assume a lower magic World, removing the Warlocks "Craft anything" Feature in msot cases makes it Tierr 4 (if highest) anyway.

    As for the Paladin: Paladins dont need Gods anyway (ven if they are normally associated with them). They are empowered by the pure Law and Good within the Planes and themselves.

    I would even put Paladins as a counterpoint to the "small Cults with flaws" Gods used in S&S Settings if I would use them.

    Just make sure that they are clearedr regarding their COde and "Falling Situatiuons", as the World is usually even more Grey in such Settings, and the Paladins as Beacojns of Light more important, if rarer.
    Warlocks indeed could fit into the setting as well as probably several other classes but for now I'm going to stick with the core twelve I started with and see if during brainstorming anything would come up which would preclude other classes. Like right now, I know any of the classes in Tier 1 and 2 are out because this is already a sort of lower magic or at least a stranger-magic setting. Though eventually things from 3 and 5 could possibly appear.

    I am waffling back and forth on paladins because while I do like the idea of them being enforcers for the city-state temples, there's just something about the pure Lawful Good shining knight which has always appealed to me. Perhaps, they are born to fulfill a certain purpose which they discover over the course of their adventuring careers.

    Anyway, I've been thinking about the origins of the setting. I'm drawn to two descriptions from Incarnum and Shadow Magic:
    • "Before creation, darkness was all, and it waits even now beyond the edges of all worlds."
    • "Incarnum is an amorphous magical substance made up of the soul energies of all sentient creatures—living, dead, and, it is theorized, those even not yet born."

    So it goes, the potential soul energies of life was swimming around in darkness and eventually congealed into the world. Something like that...

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    Default Re: Brainstorming a setting for a Tier 4 classes only game

    Originally Posted by LurkytheDwarf
    Wow. That is like almost exactly what happens in Conan the Barbarian (1982).
    Not sure if you were being sarcastic here or not. I was making those suggestions based on Mesopotamian history. Renegades did sometimes come out of nowhere and seize power in a city-state, although their "empires" tended not to outlive them.

    Originally Posted by LurkytheDwarf
    I am waffling back and forth on paladins because while I do like the idea of them being enforcers for the city-state temples, there's just something about the pure Lawful Good shining knight which has always appealed to me.
    Well, there’s no reason why one or more of the city-state temples couldn’t be devoted to a Lawful Good deity. And while the city-states are each devoted to a specific god, they don’t own that god, so it’s likely that one or more LG deities would be worshipped around the entire region. There’s plenty of leeway to have paladins both as temple agents as well as independently roaming instruments of divine will.

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    Default Re: Brainstorming a setting for a Tier 4 classes only game

    I love the concept.

    I kept the number of gods down to a minimum in My homebrewed setting. A Creator (Lawful). His Wife Nature (Neutral). Their Son The Corruptor (Chaotic). It's worked well for us for a few years now.

    YMMV ;-)
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    Default Re: Brainstorming a setting for a Tier 4 classes only game

    Archers become more viable in T4 settings, so barbarian hordes are more feasible.

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    Default Re: Brainstorming a setting for a Tier 4 classes only game

    Quote Originally Posted by LurkytheDwarf View Post
    In the list I used, they placed Warlock/Psychic Rogue in Tier 3 and Dragon Shaman/Hexblade in Tier 5. Further down the thread they have a brief summary for why every class is where it is. Apparently this revised list was put together by committee.
    If UMD was a justification, you should discount it in this setting -- arbitrary magic item crafting won't be so easy to come by.

    You can see the reasoning behind the standard tiers here: https://forums.giantitp.com/showthre...d-from-MinMax)

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    Default Re: Brainstorming a setting for a Tier 4 classes only game

    Quote Originally Posted by Nifft View Post
    If UMD was a justification, you should discount it in this setting -- arbitrary magic item crafting won't be so easy to come by.

    You can see the reasoning behind the standard tiers here: https://forums.giantitp.com/showthre...d-from-MinMax)
    That's a fair point. I'd imagine that would knock down Psychic Rogue a bit; would that empower mid-level casters like the Hexblade or misc buffers like the Dragon Shaman enough to be considered T4 in this setting though? I haven't played either of the latter, but I'd imagine the Dragon Shaman healing utility would be more pronounced in a world without NI wands of cure light wounds to purchase...
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    Default Re: Brainstorming a setting for a Tier 4 classes only game

    OP, any more thoughts on this?

    It's a great concept, and it would be a lot of fun to play in this setting. I keep thinking of other aspects to include, but wanted to get your thoughts on what's been posted recently.

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    Default Re: Brainstorming a setting for a Tier 4 classes only game

    Quote Originally Posted by Doctor Despair View Post
    That's a fair point. I'd imagine that would knock down Psychic Rogue a bit; would that empower mid-level casters like the Hexblade or misc buffers like the Dragon Shaman enough to be considered T4 in this setting though? I haven't played either of the latter, but I'd imagine the Dragon Shaman healing utility would be more pronounced in a world without NI wands of cure light wounds to purchase...
    Adepts are right there. They can do crafting just fine. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if Craft Wand were a common feat for them, since they have so few spell slots. Same with the half-casters.

    Psychic rogue's power isn't really dependent on UPD, so I wouldn't expect it to lose much power. However, if your campaign takes place at lower levels (say levels 1–10), a lot of classes might move around because of that.

    I think NPC classes want to still be around for gameplay reasons. They are legitimately useful for building NPCs.
    Last edited by Troacctid; 2020-05-27 at 01:04 PM.

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    Default Re: Brainstorming a setting for a Tier 4 classes only game

    For Adepts, I'd combine the benefits of Adept and Religious Adept, and maybe a few selected spells from Urban Adept, and pick which domains are readily available for them to pick. Then I'd make the feats:

    Scribe Scroll
    Inscribe Rune
    Craft Magic Arms & Armor
    Craft Wand
    Brew Potion
    Craft Wondrous Item

    the main feats available, and then figure out what these Religious/Urban/etc. Adepts of, oohhhhh, 13th level and below can make with these feats can make, and those are the magic items available in the setting.

    Or possibly even remove Craft Wondrous Item and Brew Potion, and have the main crafters max out at Adept 5/Runecaster8 (for Improved Runecasting), and have Wondrous Items be those legendary items of yore.
    Last edited by Gavinfoxx; 2020-05-27 at 02:09 PM.

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    Default Re: Brainstorming a setting for a Tier 4 classes only game

    Does this mean you'd adjust the prices for base items, since they're based on tier 1-2 caster level access?

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    Default Re: Brainstorming a setting for a Tier 4 classes only game

    Originally Posted by Troacctid
    I think NPC classes want to still be around for gameplay reasons.
    I was just about to post this same sentiment. Probably no reason why anything under Tier 4 couldn’t make an appearance. The expert would see heavy use for the artisans who contribute to the city-state temple economies.

    Also, I don’t think it’s been mentioned yet, but are there any restrictions on prestige classes? Presumably anything relying on higher-tier base classes would be absent, so no arcane hierophants, but what about other PrCs?

    I think mystic theurge with ranger/spellthief is possible, if not exactly ideal, but it could make for an interesting NPC if the PrC is allowed.

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    Default Re: Brainstorming a setting for a Tier 4 classes only game

    Quote Originally Posted by LurkytheDwarf View Post
    Incarnate, Shadowcaster, Rogue, Barbarian, Scout, Spelltheif, Paladin, Ranger, Ninja, Adept, Fighter, Marshal
    Some of these work really well for S&S, though the Paladin is weird. So, let's talk genre tropes, and how these fit.

    Weird Sketchy Magic: The Shadowcaster, Incarnate, and to a lesser extent Spellthief all work pretty well here. The Adept works less well, but what I do like about them is that they're not particularly coded as scholarly arcane casters. You could probably drop the Arcane/Divine split (which is one of the things that makes D&D feel so specifically D&D in setting), and play up the plethora of tiny gods side.

    Types of Civilizations: It's really common in S&S for there to be 3 broad categories of civilization (though it's a trope that can get gross and racist fast if not handled with caution, especially if you're taking influence from 1930's and 1940's work uncritically). Still, the decadent and decaying heavily urbanized civilizations work, as do the clannish "barbarian" cultures, as do the more anarchic, undisciplined "savage" cultures. The martial classes can form a nice continuum across most of this, very roughly in a Rogue->Marshal->Fighter->Scout->Ranger->Barbarian distribution. The ninja and paladin are a bit weird.

    Broadly Iron Age: S&S isn't usually particularly historically rooted, but inasmuch as it is it's usually more bronze age to iron age, extending a bit into pre-Roman classical. This ties into the magic a bit, as the mage/priest/administer archetype works really well with a fantasy version of ancient Mesopotamia in particular, and oh look, there's that Adept again, perfect for the role. It also helps that we don't have the Knight and a few other more thoroughly medieval classes around, though again, the Paladin is the odd one out.

    Cults: Weird secluded cults are a whole thing, often tied to the aforementioned sketchy magic. While it would be really helpful to have the Warlock and Binder around, the Incarnate works so well as a cultist of some sort. This also might be a place where paladins can be incorporated, as some sort of cataphract order tied to a benign cult associated with a minor steppe horse god. Though the alignment requirement and S&S tropes are still not playing as nice as I'd like.

    Obviously there's also the class-as-detached-mechanics approach which nullifies a lot of this, but if you're trying to derive setting from classes that seems like an incompatible decision.
    I would really like to see a game made by Obryn, Kurald Galain, and Knaight from these forums.

    I'm not joking one bit. I would buy the hell out of that.
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    Default Re: Brainstorming a setting for a Tier 4 classes only game

    Originally Posted by Knaight
    …the Paladin is the odd one out.
    As already discussed, the paladin works perfectly fine as an agent of the various city-state temple deities, as well as in other roles. The OP indicated he’s fine with opening up the alignment variants of the paladin, to better match with the different alignments of the temple deities.

    Originally Posted by Knaight
    It's really common in S&S for there to be 3 broad categories of civilization....
    This may be true for that subgenre of fiction, but I wouldn't use that to restrict the cultures and polities available in a game world.

    And those categories themselves are really caricatures, which contribute very little to a campaign setting and are best avoided.

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    Default Re: Brainstorming a setting for a Tier 4 classes only game

    Quote Originally Posted by Palanan View Post
    Not sure if you were being sarcastic here or not. I was making those suggestions based on Mesopotamian history. Renegades did sometimes come out of nowhere and seize power in a city-state, although their "empires" tended not to outlive them.

    Well, there’s no reason why one or more of the city-state temples couldn’t be devoted to a Lawful Good deity. And while the city-states are each devoted to a specific god, they don’t own that god, so it’s likely that one or more LG deities would be worshipped around the entire region. There’s plenty of leeway to have paladins both as temple agents as well as independently roaming instruments of divine will.
    Yeah, I probably shouldn't use "wow" in a text-based discussion. While I'm not as familiar with Mesopotamian lore, with Conan being one of the quintessential sword-and-sorcery stories it was just very interesting how closely the idea synched up with it.

    I do think I like sticking with LG paladins. The Incarnate with their rigid ideologies could often be used as the standard "elite enforcer" for many temples. I was considering the individual patron gods to be the older model in the city-states. I've started to construct one religion (a Lawful Neutral deity with a portfolio of leadership, destiny, and secrets) that would be breaking the previous mold, exporting their faith throughout the city-states and in some cases rising to total authority. This would be a relatively new invention (perhaps over the last hundred years or so). I could see both crusading paladins and scheming priests working for various holy orders within the church.

    Quote Originally Posted by Troacctid View Post
    Adepts are right there. They can do crafting just fine. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if Craft Wand were a common feat for them, since they have so few spell slots. Same with the half-casters.

    Psychic rogue's power isn't really dependent on UPD, so I wouldn't expect it to lose much power. However, if your campaign takes place at lower levels (say levels 1–10), a lot of classes might move around because of that.

    I think NPC classes want to still be around for gameplay reasons. They are legitimately useful for building NPCs.
    Quote Originally Posted by Gavinfoxx View Post
    For Adepts, I'd combine the benefits of Adept and Religious Adept, and maybe a few selected spells from Urban Adept, and pick which domains are readily available for them to pick. Then I'd make the feats:

    Scribe Scroll
    Inscribe Rune
    Craft Magic Arms & Armor
    Craft Wand
    Brew Potion
    Craft Wondrous Item

    the main feats available, and then figure out what these Religious/Urban/etc. Adepts of, oohhhhh, 13th level and below can make with these feats can make, and those are the magic items available in the setting.

    Or possibly even remove Craft Wondrous Item and Brew Potion, and have the main crafters max out at Adept 5/Runecaster8 (for Improved Runecasting), and have Wondrous Items be those legendary items of yore.
    I generally agree with this. I don't really want to yet put any limitations on or go beyond the standard variants of what any of the tier 4 classes are capable of, but I do prefer the idea of the more powerful items being leftovers from the fallen ancient empire which spawned the spellthieves. That the adepts have the easiest path toward crafting gives me the notion that they used the expendable items (wands, scrolls, potions) to rise to their positions of prominence in the government and commerce of the city-states.

    Quote Originally Posted by RedWarlock View Post
    Does this mean you'd adjust the prices for base items, since they're based on tier 1-2 caster level access?
    I like this idea as well. While I don't mind the presence of wands of cure light wounds and potions of protection form evil, I would prefer to limit what specific spells are available in those forms by using the adept spell list and increasing the base cost of things like 2nd+ level wands because adepts' default CL for those spells is higher (which would mean a cure moderate wounds wand would heal like 2d8+4 but cost 6,000 gp to show that more powerful magic is still harder to come by).

    Quote Originally Posted by Palanan View Post
    I was just about to post this same sentiment. Probably no reason why anything under Tier 4 couldn’t make an appearance. The expert would see heavy use for the artisans who contribute to the city-state temple economies.

    Also, I don’t think it’s been mentioned yet, but are there any restrictions on prestige classes? Presumably anything relying on higher-tier base classes would be absent, so no arcane hierophants, but what about other PrCs?

    I think mystic theurge with ranger/spellthief is possible, if not exactly ideal, but it could make for an interesting NPC if the PrC is allowed.
    Yes, I was already thinking the rest of the NPC classes would be in use, just not of any interest to player characters. And some of the lower tiers could also make appearances, perhaps in strange places like a lost city beneath a pyramid cut off from the world for ages, or some such place.

    As far as prestige classes, my initial thought was to make these brainstorming posts a sort of series. Get the basics for the type of world (terrain/authority centers/culture/dangers), and then move on to what player races should be available in another thread and finally prestige classes in the last after we know what the setting/characters/foes look like. But yes, I would like a highly tailored list of prestige classes, and hopefully perhaps elevating some of the niftier ones because they couldn't compete with the power levels of the higher tiers.

    To that end, in this thread at least, I should bring up Dangers/Foes. I've been considering it for the last couple of days, and I'll admit as far as low-level enemies are concerned I'm sort of tired of orcs and goblins and kobolds. Actually, when I think about how dangerous the wilderness is supposed to be, it's kind of hard imagining them surviving out there. My initial thought is to lean towards the content of books like Lost Empires of Faerun and the Fiend Folio. It jells with the notion of the terrible dread of the wilds and the ever-present Plane of Shadow and perhaps the invasion through it of entities from alternate material planes. The kind of setting which doesn't have traditional dragons, instead it has Linnorms.

    Spoiler: Inspirational Artwork + Early Stage Flavor Ideas
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    City-State of Pa-Bolushti: Origin of the Eastern Spice Road.


    City-State of Kalygatt: On the border of the barbarian hinterland; northernmost of the Cathedrals of the Awakened God.


    Valley of the Firstborn: Frequent passage of barbarian nomads, though few dare enter the fortress-tombs of the ancients, and of those none return.


    Priscus Town: Where the every lights burn all night; not far from Kalygatt.


    Sun-Blessed Nimosura: Jewel of the Dunes; the reptile god Gunwar Pazzel is dead, Keora, Goddess of the Free Flame reigns here now; her fire dervish evangelists roam far.


    Hall of Thane Gruzvall Cold-Eyes: In the Land of Seldom Sun; far north of Kalygatt.


    Common Sights for Those Who Dare the Wildlands




    What People Believe the Fate for All Those Who Wander Too Far Off the Map

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    Default Re: Brainstorming a setting for a Tier 4 classes only game

    Originally Posted by LurkytheDwarf
    I've started to construct one religion (a Lawful Neutral deity with a portfolio of leadership, destiny, and secrets) that would be breaking the previous mold, exporting their faith throughout the city-states and in some cases rising to total authority.
    I like it. This is a great concept to include, and lets the players feel like they’re part of history in the making, no matter what side they’re on.

    Originally Posted by LurkytheDwarf
    I do think I like sticking with LG paladins.

    …I could see both crusading paladins and scheming priests working for various holy orders within the church.
    You did mention you really liked the knight-in-shining-armor aspect of the paladin. I really liked the alignment-based variants as temple agents, but maybe that's part of the old paradigm that the Awakened Church is fighting to replace?

    Originally Posted by LurkytheDwarf
    …and then move on to what player races should be available in another thread….
    Looking forward to seeing that thread, because I’d been wondering what races you would consider suitable here.

    Just to get a head start on this discussion, I hope you’ll include halflings. They would fit very well as temple servants for the city-states, and I could see halfling tribes able to survive in marginal habitats more easily than most other races. They’re quiet, shy, and in a pinch they can survive on less food, which means areas that couldn’t support humans would still provide a living for halflings.

    Originally Posted by LurkytheDwarf
    …I’ll admit as far as low-level enemies are concerned I'm sort of tired of orcs and goblins and kobolds.
    Right there with you.

    Originally Posted by LurkytheDwarf
    *Inspirational Artwork*
    Some excellent and evocative pieces in there. A couple of them are a little more medieval than I’d been assuming, but then I’m approaching this from a Mesopotamian perspective.

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    Default Re: Brainstorming a setting for a Tier 4 classes only game

    I'd make these the "common" classes:

    Caster Expert Warrior
    Barbarian Lands Standard Adept Wilderness Rogue Barbarian
    City-States Religious Adept Feat Rogue Standard Fighter
    Mysterious East Dragon Shaman Standard Monk Marshal
    Sinister Cults Shadowcaster Standard Rogue Sneak Attack Fighter

    I'd make the other allowed classes varying degrees of rare.

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    Default Re: Brainstorming a setting for a Tier 4 classes only game

    Originally Posted by Maat Mons
    I'd make these the "common" classes:
    Interesting. I'd use ranger instead of wilderness rogue for the most common expert in the great open country outside the city-states. I'm sure there are valid arguments both ways, but for me this is the ranger's territory. Despite the name, wilderness rogue is kind of a niche concept to be the most common in actual wilderness areas.

    Tastes and mileage may vary, just my preference.

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    Default Re: Brainstorming a setting for a Tier 4 classes only game

    Personally, I feel that in this sort of game, you can make damn near any archetype with access to enough Ranger ACF's...

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    Default Re: Brainstorming a setting for a Tier 4 classes only game

    In an earlier version of that list, I had a fourth column consisting of Ranger, Paladin, Sohei, and Hexblade. But then I decided that warrior/caster hybrids didn't feel like they should be "common," so I cut it. Then again, casters probably wouldn't be very common either. So I probably could have just as well left it.

    In an even earlier version, Scout occupied the space that I later gave to Wilderness Rogue. I switched it out because I feel like Sneak Attack is a more useful ability for a hunter than Skirmish. Creep into range, aim carefully, and take the animal down in one shot.

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    Default Re: Brainstorming a setting for a Tier 4 classes only game

    Originally Posted by Maat Mons
    Creep into range, aim carefully, and take the animal down in one shot.
    Rangers have full BAB, so a ranger has a better chance of hitting. Also a better chance of following tracks to find the animal, and a better chance of calming any predators he meets along the way. And a better chance of surviving the elements or anything requiring a Fort save.

    Wilderness rogues are really not that great at operating in the wilderness. Just my view.

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    Default Re: Brainstorming a setting for a Tier 4 classes only game

    Quote Originally Posted by Palanan View Post
    Some excellent and evocative pieces in there. A couple of them are a little more medieval than I’d been assuming, but then I’m approaching this from a Mesopotamian perspective.
    I did at first, but then got to looking around and started to figure that the world was probably really, really big and pockets of city-states are scattered throughout the various different terrains. Some are very ancient in their architecture while others use newer methods (full plate being a thing does point towards some element of the medieval). Either way, any DM can focus on one specific region for their campaign if they want to keep it a certain flavor, or have the characters wander the globe(?) and experience the different cultures. Either way, the city-state model holds up throughout the campaign setting.

    Spoiler: More Inspirational Art and a General Idea of What's Where
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    The Icelands North of the Inner Sea


    The Dunes and Crags South of the Inner Sea


    Beyond the Sands to the Plains of the Impossible South


    Inn and Teahouse along the Eastern Silk Road: Located in the Great Mountain Waves.


    The Throat of Amrisol: The deadly and uncharted western end of the Inner Sea.


    The Arches of Ulthrim: Near the center of the Inner Sea.


    Grand Thûlopolis: The center of the world.


    What to Expect for Those Who Dare the Outer Sea and the World End Waters

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