Brainstorming a setting for a Tier 4 classes only game

[LurkytheDwarf]

I completed one random encounter chart. It took me a little longer than I initially anticipated, so I limited myself to the southern region of the setting, the one with the closest feel to the Mesopotamian city-states idea. I think after this, anybody that wants to can start considering what types of PC races should be included.

Spoiler: Random Encounter Table

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Dunes and Crags of the South Random Encounter Table (1d6 if traveling through the fertile valleys, 1d6+3 if traveling by the caravan routes, 1d6+6 if wandering the deep wastes)
*Encounter only happens once. Treat further rolls as no encounter.

• (1) You have come upon an oasis and watering hole but be careful, there is a Hippopotamus (Sa pg 193) herd lounging out in the water. Keen eyes are necessary while at the water's edge or the PCs might disturb one and sending it into a territorial charge.
• (2) Skulk (FF pg 154) coterie (2-8) trails the party looking to steal anything they can. If confronted in their thieving they turn violent until wounded then they attempt to flee like the cowards they are.
• (3*) A camel still bearing its bulging saddlebags (1d6x25 gp worth of mercantile goods) has died in the shade of a large, wasteland briar—really a Bloodthorn (FF pg 23), it is finished with the camel and waiting for scavengers to take away the corpse. It's still hungry enough to drink at least one character.
• (4) A Dire Vulture (Sa pg 152) begins to circle the PCs at a height of two-hundred-feet. If struck by an attack, it will become irate and seek to kill the smallest member of the party and fly away with them. If it is reduced below half hit points, it stops pursuing them. If it is ignored, it attracts 3-19 additional Dire Vultures and the PCs will need to kill a pack animal or come up with something suitably clever to distract the flock so they can flee.
• (5*) At night, a strange merchant riding a pack lizard and traveling alone approaches the party. He is friendly and wishes to share their campsite. If they haven't eaten he producing food with a wave of his hand. His name is Khalim and he is a wandering Janni (MM1 pg 116), he knows many things about the Dunes and Crags of the South (including information about the Arcane Radiation Storms (see #12) and why not to let a Dire Vulture (see #4) circle you, and whatever relevant information about the local city-states the DM wishes to give. If the PCs are polite, he is polite (willing to play games of chance for small wagers) and leaves in the morning. If they are rude, he will challenge the strongest looking one to a duel, which while bloody should not be fatal. If they PCs gang up on him, his two guard animals emerge from hiding in plain sight—treat as Cheetahs with the Dark Creature template (ToM pg 161).
• (6*) Brightly colored pavilion in the distance. If inspected, the ground around the tent is littered with bodies: retainers and a traveling noble of some importance. There is nothing of value left in the tent. If the PCs stay the night (taking the time to bury the bodies will do that), an Average Psurlon (LoM pg 163) comes back under invisibility. It was storing the noble's gold and jewelry and is now returning to fix the scene to make it look like another city or the Asherati are responsible for the noble's death to sow discord. Upon seeing the PCs, the Average Psurlon plans to implicate them instead.
• (7) Asherati (Sa pg 139) company (11-20 plus 2 3rd-level sergeants and 1 leader of 3rd-6th level). They are patrolling the caravan routes and are friendly to obvious traders/merchants, but highly suspicious of those traveling lightly believing they may be jackalwere raiders traveling in disguise. As such the Asherati avoid their gaze while interrogating the party.
• (8) Ashworms (Sa pg 140) cluster (2-4) traveling underground near the caravan route, they make a thunderous noise as they move. Fast thinking PCs may find a way of getting off the ground to avoid the ashworm's notice, otherwise, they turn and attack the party.
• (9) Jackalwere (FF pg 107) raiders (2-4 plus 1d6 jackals) seeking the flesh of their enemies. The raiders appear as jackals and move within an ordinary pack. If the party is traveling with a caravan there is a 50% chance one of the NPCs is a jackalwere spy in disguise who also attacks when its brothers do. Jackalweres leave no witnesses.
• (10) - Monolithic stone head half-buried in the sand. One cavernous nostril opens to a hollow uneven space within (roll for random treasure). A solitary Nishruu (LEoF pg 186) lairs within, but will only chase trespassers outside if its night time. Future rolls can be different types of monolithic ruins.
• (11*) - Among the crags, the PCs discover a ruined structure built into a cliff. Its stone slab door has been busted open. Inside are a series of tomb chambers going deeper into the mountain. The sarcophagi were broken and looted. All the treasure from this tomb complex has been mounded on a small island in the deepest chamber which has flooded from the cracks in one wall due to erosion from an aquifer. Out of desperation, it might be possible to damage the cracked wall enough to collapse the entire room. In this deepest chamber dwells a Deepspawn (LEoF pg 166), it likely has already sent its three current spawn (use CR 3-4 creatures unusual to the setting, so maybe actual MM1 ones) to dissuade the intruders but will fight to the death if it's confronted here.
• (12) The true peril of the deep wastes are the lingering storms of arcane radiation from the fall of an ancient empire. They sweep invisibly across the land burning everything in their path. Virtually everything dies which is caught in one, and is why most travelers carefully plot their course to be within easy reach of a sheltering cave or hollow, or they carry powerful magics with make them resistant, or they can borrow into the ground. An arcane radiation storm is invisible, only its effects can be seen (a scrub turning to ash, a bird cooked to death out of the sky, etc.). A character caught in one takes 3d10 fire damage/round, and a storm takes 2d10 minutes to pass over.

[Palanan]

Were you going to start a separate thread for geography? I think you mentioned that a little earlier, not sure if you were still intending to.

[LurkytheDwarf]

Were you going to start a separate thread for geography? I think you mentioned that a little earlier, not sure if you were still intending to.

Since there's so much room, I think I'm going to keep everything in this one thread. I'll probably start editing the first post to give anybody new an idea of the direction the thread's been going in.

As far as geography, I sort of gave the roughest notion of what sorts of terrain are where in post #29. But I'm up for any additional ideas on the topic or even a much smaller more detailed region if anyone's been playing around with such a thing.

[Luccan]

Well, Asherati seem obvious as you already mention them. I like desert elves and one of my own settings uses them as the default, rather than having elves be native forest dwellers.

[Falontani]

Going through a list of +0 LA 0 RHD races;

Asherati - Desert dwelling humanoids that can be a lamp and can swim through sand.

Daelkyr Half-Blood - Hear me out; they can be rare, and be the 'tiefling' of the setting. Distrusted, must hide among others, don't belong. You can easily keep their lore with what it seems to be your going for, or change it up a bit.

Duskling - These can be the remnants of the old fey. The Faerie Courts are either gone, missing, or have ceased caring for the world, so the old noble fey are gone, leaving the good fey scattered and rare, while the Unseelie Court has probably won, making the powerful humanoid fey creatures left almost certainly evil, dark, and corruptors. Interestingly enough they also are Incarnum users, which makes sense with them having some of the "old blood"

Dwarf: I think the kinds of dwarves should match their dwellings, but you could easily have it be
Badlands/Desert Dwarf - The most prolific dwarves remaining
Dream Dwarf - Rare, and probably one to two per dwarven community. Probably not a true breed of dwarf, but just a genetic offbreed type deal. IDK that sounds worse than what I am trying to go for...

Elf: I am partial towards the Painted Elf and Wood Elf here. Wood Elves are probably the few creatures that regularly visit the deep wilds, and any adventurers would probably seek out the Wood Elves before delving into the deep wilds themselves.

Gnome: Honestly these guys probably are rare and old. I would expect since many of them are among the longest lived of races these are where the Spellthieves are left. I would use Arctic/Ice Gnomes or Whisper Gnomes.

Goblin: I wouldn't count these guys out. They probably directly compete with halflings for territory. Easily shift their alignment as a whole towards neutral like the other civilized races. I suggest: Vril, Jungle Goblins, and Air Goblins, with Jungle Goblins being the most prominent.

Halflings: I think the halflings left should be: Jungle Halflings (directly competing with the Jungle Goblins, and occasionally alongside them), Ghostwise Halflings, and Jerren. Having the Jerren be the most prolific of the halflings would make halflings as a whole be mostly untrusted, and more likely to become cultists (Shadowcasters). (I keep saying untrusted, but one of the biggest things to keep society down is not trusting one another. They gotta work together, but if they work too well together, then society will begin to rebuild after whatever caused the old world to cease.)

Humans: Obviously humans are still around. If there is ever a time that the humans fail to adapt to whatever is left, then it is undoubtedly rare that the other races can. I suggest the following: Human (obviously), Azurin (Probably an upper caste of Incarnate Humans that push the other humans down as often as they bring them up.), Mongrelfolk (because they are human? I guess?) but actually because Mongrelfolk are supposed to be both the "don't interbreed too much" and the "don't inbreed" race; whatever catastrophe happened, Mongrelfolk will probably arise, and finally Extraminar, for the untrustworthy version, and the version that probably works well with the setting (as I am seeing it).

Shifter - probably make them actually what happens when an afflicted lycanthrope breeds with a human, when a shifter breeds with a human, when a shifter breeds with a shifter, etc. Less trusted due to lycanthropes being 'evil'.

Tibbit - Perhaps the mages of old were truly powerful enough to have humanoids as familiars, maybe not. But if one thing is true, its that Tibbits are the descendants of the familiars that the powerful mages of old possessed. You could probably create variants for most of the normal familiar types, but I'd keep it as just Cat, and maybe Rat.

Finally: This one may mesh with your setting, it may not. Warforged. If you do have them, then they were definitely made by the old mages, and mostly run down, and in disrepair. Biologically immortal, but there is a catch, they can go insane if they don't have something to do. While exploring ruins these guys can be a common enemy. I would suggest adding the Quorcraft template to any warforged that has gone insane. For player characters of the warforged, they should definitely be very very old creatures and hard to scrounge up parts to repair, possibly starting up adventuring specifically to find parts. Perhaps they remember a long past war that they were created to fight in. Perhaps that they fought for the mages, and they lost. The warforged left in society were either servants, or renegades in that war. Those that fled rather than being slaughtered by whatever ancient enemy they fought. If it isn't known what the enemy was, make it so that the warforged weren't able to comprehend what they were fighting against. If it is known, then they definitely can know.

[Jack_McSnatch]

Your race suggestions are interesting, but aren't daelkyr really specific to the cosmology of eberron? Warforged can be slotted anywhere pretty easily, but if I remember, daelkyr come from a plane that only exists in that setting. Maybe regular tieflings would be more fitting instead, as warlocks are the common caster? Either those who make the pact, or their descendants, becoming physically, and probably mentally corrupted by the dark powers they use.

Also, sidenote for OP, if magic, and magic users, are so severely restricted, wouldn't more gishes make sense? Hexblade, for example, seems like it'd fit your "evil temple guardian" idea fairly well.

[Luccan]

Your race suggestions are interesting, but aren't daelkyr really specific to the cosmology of eberron? Warforged can be slotted anywhere pretty easily, but if I remember, daelkyr come from a plane that only exists in that setting. Maybe regular tieflings would be more fitting instead, as warlocks are the common caster? Either those who make the pact, or their descendants, becoming physically, and probably mentally corrupted by the dark powers they use.

Also, sidenote for OP, if magic, and magic users, are so severely restricted, wouldn't more gishes make sense? Hexblade, for example, seems like it'd fit your "evil temple guardian" idea fairly well.

Why does everyone keep saying OP is using Warlock? They're not, at least rn. They provided the classes currently considered and even a link to the specific page they pulled it from, which was the master list for a series of threads designed to improve upon the original tier list. Similarly, Hexblade gets ranked in T5 by those discussions. The list is kind of arbitrary and restrictive from a world building perspective, but the point of the discussion is to take those restrictions and build a cohesive setting.

[Falontani]

Your race suggestions are interesting, but aren't daelkyr really specific to the cosmology of eberron?

Daelkyr are from Xoriat, the Plane of Madness. If your setting doesn't possess such a plane then Daelkyr are easily moved to a plane of chaos or similar. There are many other creatures that could fit the daelkyr's bill in creating the half blood, and lore of the race is easily enough changed. Tieflings have +1 la, and I personally thought it would be more thematic to keep them as a more infernal presence. You could also go for diabolus if you wanted to, but again la +1, while the half blood has the extraplanar origins while being la +0, and are a fun race.

[Nifft]

Daelkyr are from Xoriat, the Plane of Madness. If your setting doesn't possess such a plane then Daelkyr are easily moved to a plane of chaos or similar.

Yeah, this.

Xoriat is described in similar terms as the Far Realms, and many denizens overlap, so it's easy to substitute if you wish.

[Troacctid]

What about rilkan + skarn? The ties to incarnum and the story of a lost progenitor race seem like they would be interesting, and mechanically, they provide more options for characters using Strength or Dexterity. I notice the former is currently a bit lacking in options.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by LurkytheDwarf
As far as geography, I sort of gave the roughest notion of what sorts of terrain are where in post #29. But I'm up for any additional ideas on the topic or even a much smaller more detailed region if anyone's been playing around with such a thing.

I’ve been thinking about the geography from a Mesopotamian perspective, since that’s how I’ve been envisioning much of the setting.

Mesopotamia during the age of the early city-states was much wetter than it is today, so I’m thinking of a mythical version of Mesopotamia which is intersected by rivers and marshlands, leading to a lush and productive landscape. Each city-state is surrounded by a broad halo of farms, worked by people who live inside the city, with extensive canal systems reaching across the landscape. Many of the city-states have one or more larger canals running through the city from nearby rivers, and much of the traffic and commerce is carried by barges and small sailing boats rather than on roads.

There are several dozen city-states in a relatively flat region, surrounded by high mountains in a broad northern arc; the mountains are home to clans of “wild men,” uncivilized and unpredictable. Several trade routes follow high mountain passes to farther lands beyond the mountains, but the caravans are under constant risk of attack from the wild men and worse creatures living in the mountains.

To the south of the civilized plain is a region of arid tablelands, inhabited by nomadic pastoralists who sometimes trade with the city-states and sometimes raid them. Beyond their realm is hard desert, a region of wadis and salt flats where desert tribes zealously control their hidden oases. Farther still are other realms, lands of distant rumor from which a trickle of fine trade goods reaches back through the desert.

And that's the starting point I had in mind. This keeps the basic Mesopotamian flavor that I’d been working from, while still allowing for other options.

[LurkytheDwarf]

I’ve been thinking about the geography from a Mesopotamian perspective, since that’s how I’ve been envisioning much of the setting.

Mesopotamia during the age of the early city-states was much wetter than it is today, so I’m thinking of a mythical version of Mesopotamia which is intersected by rivers and marshlands, leading to a lush and productive landscape. Each city-state is surrounded by a broad halo of farms, worked by people who live inside the city, with extensive canal systems reaching across the landscape. Many of the city-states have one or more larger canals running through the city from nearby rivers, and much of the traffic and commerce is carried by barges and small sailing boats rather than on roads.

There are several dozen city-states in a relatively flat region, surrounded by high mountains in a broad northern arc; the mountains are home to clans of “wild men,” uncivilized and unpredictable. Several trade routes follow high mountain passes to farther lands beyond the mountains, but the caravans are under constant risk of attack from the wild men and worse creatures living in the mountains.

To the south of the civilized plain is a region of arid tablelands, inhabited by nomadic pastoralists who sometimes trade with the city-states and sometimes raid them. Beyond their realm is hard desert, a region of wadis and salt flats where desert tribes zealously control their hidden oases. Farther still are other realms, lands of distant rumor from which a trickle of fine trade goods reaches back through the desert.

And that's the starting point I had in mind. This keeps the basic Mesopotamian flavor that I’d been working from, while still allowing for other options.

So something more like this:

Spoiler

Show

Though that would be more of an outpost near the edge of the region than a full city-state.

Following through with the Inner Sea being pretty much the Mediterranian, then this area could be just east of that. Beyond the arc of northern mountains would by the snowy faux European continent and beyond the tablelands into the south/southwest would be the deserts and crags and oases. The Random Encounter chart I made would be for the deserts but there are a couple of entries that could provide overlap. For example, I was thinking the Skulk would be a nuisance in any region that held ruins of the fallen ancient empire (so like the Inner Sea, the North, South, and this Fertile Crescent area). Others though, maybe because what you've described seems more grounded, feel like they might be out of place. I'd be interested in any enemy selections which you've thought up.

Well, Asherati seem obvious as you already mention them. I like desert elves and one of my own settings uses them as the default, rather than having elves be native forest dwellers.

Yes, by the end of my 3.5 DMing I had Snow Elves (+2 Dex, -2 Cha) as my default elven race to make them somewhat more appealing while trying to avoid races which increased spellcasting ability scores.

Going through a list of +0 LA 0 RHD races;

Asherati - Desert dwelling humanoids that can be a lamp and can swim through sand.

Daelkyr Half-Blood - Hear me out; they can be rare, and be the 'tiefling' of the setting. Distrusted, must hide among others, don't belong. You can easily keep their lore with what it seems to be your going for, or change it up a bit.

Duskling - These can be the remnants of the old fey. The Faerie Courts are either gone, missing, or have ceased caring for the world, so the old noble fey are gone, leaving the good fey scattered and rare, while the Unseelie Court has probably won, making the powerful humanoid fey creatures left almost certainly evil, dark, and corruptors. Interestingly enough they also are Incarnum users, which makes sense with them having some of the "old blood"

Dwarf: I think the kinds of dwarves should match their dwellings, but you could easily have it be
Badlands/Desert Dwarf - The most prolific dwarves remaining
Dream Dwarf - Rare, and probably one to two per dwarven community. Probably not a true breed of dwarf, but just a genetic offbreed type deal. IDK that sounds worse than what I am trying to go for...

Elf: I am partial towards the Painted Elf and Wood Elf here. Wood Elves are probably the few creatures that regularly visit the deep wilds, and any adventurers would probably seek out the Wood Elves before delving into the deep wilds themselves.

Gnome: Honestly these guys probably are rare and old. I would expect since many of them are among the longest lived of races these are where the Spellthieves are left. I would use Arctic/Ice Gnomes or Whisper Gnomes.

Goblin: I wouldn't count these guys out. They probably directly compete with halflings for territory. Easily shift their alignment as a whole towards neutral like the other civilized races. I suggest: Vril, Jungle Goblins, and Air Goblins, with Jungle Goblins being the most prominent.

Halflings: I think the halflings left should be: Jungle Halflings (directly competing with the Jungle Goblins, and occasionally alongside them), Ghostwise Halflings, and Jerren. Having the Jerren be the most prolific of the halflings would make halflings as a whole be mostly untrusted, and more likely to become cultists (Shadowcasters). (I keep saying untrusted, but one of the biggest things to keep society down is not trusting one another. They gotta work together, but if they work too well together, then society will begin to rebuild after whatever caused the old world to cease.)

Humans: Obviously humans are still around. If there is ever a time that the humans fail to adapt to whatever is left, then it is undoubtedly rare that the other races can. I suggest the following: Human (obviously), Azurin (Probably an upper caste of Incarnate Humans that push the other humans down as often as they bring them up.), Mongrelfolk (because they are human? I guess?) but actually because Mongrelfolk are supposed to be both the "don't interbreed too much" and the "don't inbreed" race; whatever catastrophe happened, Mongrelfolk will probably arise, and finally Extraminar, for the untrustworthy version, and the version that probably works well with the setting (as I am seeing it).

Shifter - probably make them actually what happens when an afflicted lycanthrope breeds with a human, when a shifter breeds with a human, when a shifter breeds with a shifter, etc. Less trusted due to lycanthropes being 'evil'.

Tibbit - Perhaps the mages of old were truly powerful enough to have humanoids as familiars, maybe not. But if one thing is true, its that Tibbits are the descendants of the familiars that the powerful mages of old possessed. You could probably create variants for most of the normal familiar types, but I'd keep it as just Cat, and maybe Rat.

Finally: This one may mesh with your setting, it may not. Warforged. If you do have them, then they were definitely made by the old mages, and mostly run down, and in disrepair. Biologically immortal, but there is a catch, they can go insane if they don't have something to do. While exploring ruins these guys can be a common enemy. I would suggest adding the Quorcraft template to any warforged that has gone insane. For player characters of the warforged, they should definitely be very very old creatures and hard to scrounge up parts to repair, possibly starting up adventuring specifically to find parts. Perhaps they remember a long past war that they were created to fight in. Perhaps that they fought for the mages, and they lost. The warforged left in society were either servants, or renegades in that war. Those that fled rather than being slaughtered by whatever ancient enemy they fought. If it isn't known what the enemy was, make it so that the warforged weren't able to comprehend what they were fighting against. If it is known, then they definitely can know.

What about rilkan + skarn? The ties to incarnum and the story of a lost progenitor race seem like they would be interesting, and mechanically, they provide more options for characters using Strength or Dexterity. I notice the former is currently a bit lacking in options.

Funnily enough, Delkyr Half-Bloods were already on my list of possibles as to go with the Shadow Plane feel to the wilds, there is also a Far Realm undercurrent to some of the creatures I've been selecting. So I'm on board with that.

My first instinct with this setting was to try and use as many different human-like races as possible: Human, Azurin, Rilkan, Skarn, Asharati, and maybe Shifters and Neanderthals. And steer clear of the classic Tolkien-esk races altogether: Elves, Dwarves, Orcs, Halflings, etc. Perhaps Mongrelfolk are all that remains of these races, or maybe in an interesting twist (in the vein of Warhammer 40,000's Necrons) would be that to escape a cataclysm the last of their races sealed their spirits in Warforged, some of which persist to modern times. Though just being living constructs created by the old wizards is a classic, and I like the Quorcraft template idea.

Dusklings do fill the Fey/forest people angle commonly attributed to elves and perhaps are the eldest race left, hiding in their extraplanar Incarnum pockets while the cataclysm which claimed the other older races did its thing.

That does leave the fact that there are no races enhancing mental attributes but that never bothered me. Not having a small race is a problem, so perhaps goblins or halflings or gnomes survived—but I will admit I've seen enough Strongheart Halflings and Whisper Gnomes to last me a lifetime. In fact, I'd be willing to go without basic humans as well, and in their place just using Azurins and say Illumians (perhaps they are the race created by the wizards of old) with Delkyr Half-Bloods being tainted by the creeping Far Realm which snuffs out their inherent magic (Essentia/Sigils).

I'm open to more suggestions, especially about the best small race to incorporate. Also, I don't think we're going to come to a grand unified PC race list. I would prefer to have a couple examples to give people an idea of the different directions you could go with this setting.

[Troacctid]

If I could only pick one small race, it would be one of the various halfling variants. I think shoal halfling could use more love.

If you want to include at least one race for each mental ability, I'd look at arcane gnome, spellscale, and khepri, and then add on the complacent human variant (+2 to an ability score of your choice, no other racial traits) for a little extra variety.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by LurkytheDwarf
In fact, I'd be willing to go without basic humans as well….

I would hope that baseline humans would be available somewhere in the setting. I’ve been assuming they’re the ones inhabiting the city-states as I’ve described them, perhaps with a few other races mixed in. And I could see a city-state or two built primarily by dwarves, perhaps closer to the mountains where stone is easier to come by.

Originally Posted by LurkytheDwarf
Not having a small race is a problem, so perhaps goblins or halflings or gnomes survived—but I will admit I've seen enough Strongheart Halflings and Whisper Gnomes to last me a lifetime.

You could just limit it to the baseline halfling, which is innocuous enough. I mentioned above that halflings could probably survive in marginal areas where larger humanoids would have difficulty getting enough food, and I’ve been thinking they’d fit into the city-states easily enough.

As for other races, I feel like vanara could work as travelers and traders from some distant land, perhaps a common sight among caravans and in the larger and more cosmopolitan city-states. I like the overall concept of including Neanderthals, but I’ve always hated the 3.5 version, which is a cartoonish caricature at best. Assuming a better version could be found, Neanderthals would be at home in the highest mountains as well as in the snowy lands much farther north.

And while they might not necessarily be foes, goliaths do have an ancient-giant-race feel to them, and they would work well for some of the mountain tribes.

.

[False God]

As a thought experiment, I've been looking at the revised tiers list and been thinking about what such a setting would look like using only one tier for all the available classes. Tier 4 (minus Dragon magazine and UA generic classes) inspired me the most, so I went with that.

Classes: Incarnate, Shadowcaster, Rogue, Barbarian, Scout, Spelltheif, Paladin, Ranger, Ninja, Adept, Fighter, Marshal

Half the iconic four are present (Fighter, Rogue) which points me in the direction of a setting more in the Sword and Sorcery genre like that of Lankhmar and Conan: episodic adventures, no world-threatening dangers, exotic locals, Arabian Nights, magical monsters and evil sorcerers.

A full third of the classes are either primitive or at least wilderness-based (Adept, Barbarian, Ranger, Scout). So the world should probably be very wild with vast tracks of untamed lands. Civilization tends to be very tightly concentrated, Points of Light–style city-states/kingdoms (something akin to that described in The Howling Emptiness of the World of Greyhawk by the Hill Cantons blog). Lone rangers tirelessly patrol the borders, warning towns of impending dangers, and tracking down missing caravans. Only rugged barbarian tribes dare dwell far out in the wilderness, aided by their wise women and witchdoctors (Adepts).

There's also a warfare theme in the classes as well (Marshal, Scout, Ninja). So war is common enough between the Points of Light that there are many former army commanders and scouts (very necessary to aid troops moving from one kingdom to another through the harsh wilds safely). I'm inclined to believe its the Points of Light at war and not monstrous humanoid hordes due to the presence of the Ninjas, which owes itself to an intense layer of intrigue, assassination, and espionage between sophisticated powers. Maybe the kingdoms aren't kingdoms but noble houses/clans/guilds seeking to protect their rice farms and poppy fields and steal those of their neighbors.

Yeah, I think you're on the right path, you're basically dealing with a very "real" ancient world, with a touch of magic. Feudal kingdoms, warring nations, long travel across the world, distant and unexplored lands, strange and unknown (but not incredibly magical) peoples and creatures.

I'm sorta at a loss for Paladins because at first, this doesn't seem like a world which has many gods, or where the gods are very present. The divine magic either comes from communing with nature (Rangers) or some sort of secret traditions passed down through generation (Adepts). I assume they would be the rarest class, as the setting outlined above doesn't necessarily feel like it tolerates traditional heroes very well—the barbarians too chaotic and the ninja-employing nobles too evil.

What are your thoughts on how to incorporate the Paladin? Do you have any ideas which expand on those outlined above? Or when you look at this list of classes does a completely different setting come to mind?

You could take a more eastern religion approach and deal with small and multifarious gods. I wouldn't take away the paladins powers if they're away from said god's domain, but a paladin may look more like your world's druid. Your gods may be much smaller and much more interactive with the players, powerful beings within their realm (think very limited, a specific river, a certain forest or grove), actively guiding them, giving them quests, punishing and rewarding them.

[Aniikinis]

My first instinct with this setting was to try and use as many different human-like races as possible: Human, Azurin, Rilkan, Skarn, Asharati, and maybe Shifters and Neanderthals. And steer clear of the classic Tolkien-esk races altogether: Elves, Dwarves, Orcs, Halflings, etc. Perhaps Mongrelfolk are all that remains of these races, or maybe in an interesting twist (in the vein of Warhammer 40,000's Necrons) would be that to escape a cataclysm the last of their races sealed their spirits in Warforged, some of which persist to modern times. Though just being living constructs created by the old wizards is a classic, and I like the Quorcraft template idea.

Dusklings do fill the Fey/forest people angle commonly attributed to elves and perhaps are the eldest race left, hiding in their extraplanar Incarnum pockets while the cataclysm which claimed the other older races did its thing.

That does leave the fact that there are no races enhancing mental attributes but that never bothered me. Not having a small race is a problem, so perhaps goblins or halflings or gnomes survived—but I will admit I've seen enough Strongheart Halflings and Whisper Gnomes to last me a lifetime. In fact, I'd be willing to go without basic humans as well, and in their place just using Azurins and say Illumians (perhaps they are the race created by the wizards of old) with Delkyr Half-Bloods being tainted by the creeping Far Realm which snuffs out their inherent magic (Essentia/Sigils).

I'm open to more suggestions, especially about the best small race to incorporate. Also, I don't think we're going to come to a grand unified PC race list. I would prefer to have a couple examples to give people an idea of the different directions you could go with this setting.

Most of these come from Dragon Magazine but...
You could also use Ghost Elves as a race of lingering elven spirits from before the cataclysm. Too attached to their lands to fully pass on, just to see everything vanish before their eyes yet be unable to find true peace.
There could also be possible links to the Adu'Jas in even older ruins than those that come from the elves and them, possibly giving an even more ancient feel to the world.
Glimmerfolk could act as a counterpart to the Dusklings, a sort of behind the scenes territorial war raging between dark and light sparked by a prank or joke gone too far with the "aid" of some third party
Tibbits could fit the small sized race pretty well, also having another way to avoid detection and slip into city-states fairly unnoticed

[Falontani]

Jungle Halfling, jerran, or tibbit would be my small race suggestions. I really like the idea of goblins vs jungle halflings. I wouldn't get rid of humans, but you can easily add several "variant" humans by having several feats be much more common.

An example would be a large number of humans that have touch of summoning as their bonus feat.

[Palanan]

We've had a number of races proposed, but the OP evidently prefers not to establish a single master list.

So, what would be some interesting suites of races that might create distinctive variants of the setting? For instance, Falontani mentioned jungle halflings. What other races would work for a rainforest-themed version of this setting?

[Luccan]

We've had a number of races proposed, but the OP evidently prefers not to establish a single master list.

So, what would be some interesting suites of races that might create distinctive variants of the setting? For instance, Falontani mentioned jungle halflings. What other races would work for a rainforest-themed version of this setting?

Vanara come to mind pretty much immediately, particularly for being LA +0 jungle dwellers that aren't just a subrace. 3.5 Dragon update gets rid of the Wisdom and Int bonus (and I think the Strength penalty), so no worries there

[Palanan]

By this point, we’ve worked out what classes would be appropriate for the OP’s concept, and we have a wide range of races that could be available.

So, what sorts of campaigns and encounters would fit into this setting?

[Curelomosaurus]

It seems to me that combining a HoB-style military campaign with intrigue and politics would fit this world well, although a horror campaign based around evil incarnates/shadowcasters/spellthieves would work well, too.

[lylsyly]

By fluff, Hobgoblins are evil, highly miltarystic and expansioninstic......

A large clan just moved into the neighborhood.....

[thorr-kan]

I'm late to the party, as usual, but this has been an interesting thread. I'm always up for reading how a DM tailors the rules to make their campaign work.

As an aside, the World-Building forum may have some threads of interest for brainstorming. In particular, Yora has put a lot of thought into "sword-and-sorcery" style settings with coherent setting metaphysics. They lean 5E these days, but they're interesting reading. In particular, I like the following three:
https://forums.giantitp.com/showthre...dritch-Forests
https://forums.giantitp.com/showthre...p-D-5th-Ed-E6)
https://forums.giantitp.com/showthre...sts-of-Kaendor

With adepts being the major divine spellcasters, traditional D&D deities may not be the way to go. I've often felt some of the Eberron religions could be poached wholesale for use in a homebrew world. From the Campaign Setting book, the Silver Flame, the Blood of Vol, and the Cults of the Dragon Below give you enough variety for as many competing sects and dogmas as you like.

Expanding to other Eberron supplements, the Path of Inspiration and the Path of Light both have psionic tie-ins. Include the Dreaming Dark for creepy, private extradimensional threats.

If including elves/fey and ancestor worship, the Undying Court and the Spirits of the Past can serve your needs.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by thorr-kan
As an aside, the World-Building forum may have some threads of interest for brainstorming. In particular, Yora has put a lot of thought into "sword-and-sorcery" style settings with coherent setting metaphysics.

Thanks for the reminder about Yora's excellent Bronze Age thread. I came across it a while ago and meant to post some thoughts there.

It looks like his campaign has started, though following a very different take from the setting ideas floated in this thread.

.

[thorr-kan]

Thanks for the reminder about Yora's excellent Bronze Age thread. I came across it a while ago and meant to post some thoughts there.

It looks like his campaign has started, though following a very different take from the setting ideas floated in this thread.

I think it's a different campaign than the one discussed previously.

Though if it's the same, I also wouldn't be surprised. Theory and execution in a campaign seem to often have only a passing knowledge of each other...

[thorr-kan]

And if Adepts are going to be a primary spellcaster, be aware of their alternate class features. There aren't many, but there are a few.

Spoiler: Adept Alternate Class Features

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Familiar – Dragon 280, p60 - Alternative starting familiars. (3.0ED)

Familiar – Dragon 323, p88 - Specialist familiars. (3.5ED)

Familiar – Dragon 341, p96 - Specialist familiars. (3.5ED)

Familiar - Dragon 348, p88 - Unfamiliar territory: focus caster; (arcane reabsorbtion isn't valid as it specifically calls out arcane spells). (3.5ED)

Goblin of Grodd - Into the Dragon's Lair, p86 – Shadow Kinship: The goblins of Grodd are not harmed by the touch of the creatures called shadows. Furthermore, an adept of Grodd can rebuke or command shadows as a cleric of the same level. (3.0ED)

Goblin of Grodd - Into the Dragon's Lair, p86 - The Iron One: possibly an aspect of a goblin deity. Internet speculation has it being Maglubiyet, the god of goblins and hobgoblins. Domains are Chaos, Destruction, Evil, Trickery.

Goblin of Grodd - Into the Dragon's Lair, p90-91 – Alternate spell list. (3.0ED)

Kobold - Races of the Dragon, p48 - Alternate spell list: Swap animal trance and daylight with lesser restoration and create food & water, respectively. (3.5ED)

More Spells for Adepts sidebar - Masters of the Wild, p81 - Additional spells from Defenders of the Faith, Masters of the Wild, Tome and Blood. (3.0ED)

Religious Adept – Eberron Campaign Setting, p256 – Add ability to choose a domain from the god worshipped; add domain spells to spell list and gain domain power, treating adept level as cleric level. (3.5ED)

Religious Urban Adept – Sharn: City of Towers, p167 – Alternate spell list, add ability to choose a domain from the god worshipped; add domain spells to spell list and gain domain power, treating adept level as cleric level. (3.5ED)

Urban Adept – Sharn: City of Towers, p167 – Alternate spell list. (3.5ED)

There have also been a few spells added to the adept's spell list over the years.

Spoiler: Adept Additional Spells

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Additional Spells - (CC-Complete Champion)
2 - Bewildering Substitution - CC, p116
2 - Bewildering Visions - CC, p116
2 - Interfaith Blessing - CC, p123
4 - Lesser Spell Turning - Mintiper's Chapbook Part 10 (http://archive.wizards.com/dnd/artic...mc/mc20020130a)
5 - Bewildering Mischance - CC, p116


eTools Adept Spell List:
1 - restful slumber - HH - Improved Oneiromancy feat
4 - dream walk - HH - Improved Oneiromancy feat
4 - manifest desire - HH - Improved Oneiromancy feat
4 - manifest nighmare - HH - Improved Oneiromancy feat
5 - dreaming puppet - HH - Improved Oneiromancy feat

5 - call forth the beast - HH - corrupt spell


Lords of Madness, and many online adept spell lists:
2 - invoke the cerulean sign - LOM - "its magic is nearly universal and can be mastered by all spellcasting classes"


More Spells for Adepts sidebar, Masters of the Wild, p81 (DotF-Defenders of the Faith, MotW-Masters of the Wild, TaB-Tome and Blood):
0 - dawn (MotW) - SpC, p59
1 - hawkeye (MotW) - SpC, p110
1 - lesser cold orb (TaB) - SpC, p151, (orb of cold, lesser)
1 - scarecrow (MotW) -
2 - choke (TaB) -
2 - decomposition (MotW) - SpC, p61
2 - owl's wisdom (TaB) - PH, p259
3 - beastmask (DotF) -
3 - embrace the wild (MotW) - SpC, p79
3 - enhance familiar (TaB) - SpC, p82
4 - false bravado (MotW) -
4 - languor (MotW) - SpC, p130
4 - weather eye (DotF) - SpC, p238
5 - big sky (MotW) -
5 - ghostform (TaB) - SpC, p103


Any prepared spellcaster who meets the alignment requirements:
sanctified spells - BoED
corrupt spells - BoVD, HH - (see call forth the beast, above)

[Palanan]

That's a great resource for filling out the adept, thanks for including those.



Also, I don't know if this has been mentioned yet, but with a party of T4 or below, would encounters need to be modified to avoid steamrolling them?

[Dr_Dinosaur]

This kind of setting seems perfect for e6 or e10 for exactly that reason. Also more humanoid enemies

[thorr-kan]

That's a great resource for filling out the adept, thanks for including those.

Also, I don't know if this has been mentioned yet, but with a party of T4 or below, would encounters need to be modified to avoid steamrolling them?

Glad to be of help.

I don't think you'll need to modify encounters, if the rules for the PCs apply to the NPCs.