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  1. - Top - End - #121
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    Ortho's Avatar

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    Default Re: Shakespearean English, or "Why is misunderstanding easier than learning?"

    Quote Originally Posted by mindstalk View Post
    Going by the dictionary, which can be authoritative here because no one uses the word any more, there is only one meaning of 'wherefore'.

    It's just that people who don't know the word make a guess based on 'where' being in it more often than they guess based on similarity to 'therefore'. The guess is wrong, and doesn't even make sense if you pay attention to what's being said -- the word is used 5 times in the play.
    It's interesting that you bring up the other uses of "wherefore". Even with the word appearing multiple times in the play, let me try to illustrate why so many people make the mistake of translating "wherefore" as "where".

    Here're the original lines:
    Quote Originally Posted by William Shakespeare
    Why, how now, kinsman! wherefore storm you so?
    ...
    O Romeo, Romeo! wherefore art thou Romeo?
    ...
    How camest thou hither, tell me, and wherefore?
    ...
    But, wherefore, villain, didst thou kill my cousin?
    ...
    All this is comfort; wherefore weep I then?

    Here's a modern translation:
    Quote Originally Posted by Translation
    "Hey there, friend, why are you so angry?"

    "Oh, Romeo, why are you Romeo?"

    "How'd you get here, and why?"

    "But why, villain, did you kill my cousin?"

    "This is comforting; why should I cry now?"

    And now we have people mistaking "wherefore" for "where":
    Quote Originally Posted by Incorrect translation
    "Hey there, friend, where are you storming off to?"

    "Oh Romeo, where are you, Romeo?"

    "How'd you get here, and where?"

    "But where, villain, did you kill my cousin?"

    "This is comforting; where should I cry now?"
    See why the issue occurs? Every single time "wherefore" is used, "where" can be substituted and the line makes just as much sense. Only line #3 sounds strange, but even then, it can be explained away as emphasis.

    So it really isn't that unreasonable for people to conclude that "wherefore" means "where".
    Last edited by Ortho; 2020-08-01 at 10:39 PM.

  2. - Top - End - #122
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    Default Re: Shakespearean English, or "Why is misunderstanding easier than learning?"

    I don't know how you think "where should I cry now" makes sense.

    And this also ignores the context around the lines.
    Last edited by mindstalk; 2020-08-01 at 10:47 PM.

  3. - Top - End - #123
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    Default Re: Shakespearean English, or "Why is misunderstanding easier than learning?"

    Quote Originally Posted by mindstalk View Post
    I don't know how you think "where should I cry now" makes sense.

    And this also ignores the context around the lines.
    "How'd you get here, and where?" doesn't make any sense to me either.

  4. - Top - End - #124
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    Default Re: Shakespearean English, or "Why is misunderstanding easier than learning?"

    Quote Originally Posted by mindstalk View Post
    I don't know how you think "where should I cry now" makes sense.

    And this also ignores the context around the lines.
    As in, "I want to go cry somewhere private instead of here." This is Juliet's soliloquy when she just found out her husband got banished for killing her cousin, so I'd say that's not an unwarranted reaction.


    I think you've misunderstood my position. I'm not arguing that "where" is the best (or correct) translation of "wherefore". I'm trying to explain why the mistake isn't as unreasonable as it's been made out to be.
    Last edited by Ortho; 2020-08-01 at 11:20 PM.

  5. - Top - End - #125
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    Default Re: Shakespearean English, or "Why is misunderstanding easier than learning?"

    When Juliet asks "wherefore art thou Romeo?" she knows exactly where he is. She's looking at him and talking to him and immediately after that, she starts talking about how he should change his name or she should change hers. If you actually read the words instead of just moving your lips and making sound come out because your English teacher is watching, then it's pretty obvious she's talking about "Why did the man I love have to be from the family that is the enemy of my family? Names aren't that important, are they? Roses, sweet, etc."
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  6. - Top - End - #126
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    Default Re: Shakespearean English, or "Why is misunderstanding easier than learning?"

    I think there are two reasons why that particular verse can be easily misunderstood.

    The first one is that I have almost always heard isolated from the rest, so the setting isn't clear.

    The second one is that, if you know the story, then the verse itself is a bit confusing. The problem isn't that he's Romeo, it's that he's Montague.
    Quote Originally Posted by J.R.R. Tolkien, 1955
    I thought Tom Bombadil dreadful — but worse still was the announcer's preliminary remarks that Goldberry was his daughter (!), and that Willowman was an ally of Mordor (!!).

  7. - Top - End - #127
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    Default Re: Shakespearean English, or "Why is misunderstanding easier than learning?"

    When Juliet asks "wherefore art thou Romeo?" she knows exactly where he is.
    Sadly not true. He's in the scene, but spying on her so far. She does address him later in the scene:

    Jul. How cam'st thou hither, tell me, and wherefore?
    The orchard walls are high and hard to climb,
    And the place death, considering who thou art,
    If any of my kinsmen find thee here.

    This could make sense if 'wherefore' meant "where from". But that would make all the other uses even less sensible than "where" makes them. And we have a word for "where from": 'whence'.

    The second one is that, if you know the story, then the verse itself is a bit confusing. The problem isn't that he's Romeo, it's that he's Montague.
    She sort of clarifies a bit later:

    Jul. O Romeo, Romeo! wherefore art thou Romeo?
    Deny thy father and refuse thy name!
    Or, if thou wilt not, be but sworn my love,
    And I'll no longer be a Capulet.

    Jul. 'Tis but thy name that is my enemy.
    Thou art thyself, though not a Montague.
    What's Montague? it is nor hand, nor foot,
    Nor arm, nor face, nor any other part
    Belonging to a man. O, be some other name!
    What's in a name? That which we call a rose
    By any other name would smell as sweet.
    So Romeo would, were he not Romeo call'd

    Granted a confusing clarification, implicating both 'Montague' and 'Romeo'.

  8. - Top - End - #128
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    Default Re: Shakespearean English, or "Why is misunderstanding easier than learning?"

    Yea, I think that what she means in that verse is a more general "Why did it have to be you, Romeo?", and later she indicates that the problem isn't him specifically, but what both Romeo and Juliet are part of, i.e. warring families, and that this they could (would) change.

    EDIT: Although she does finish with So Romeo would, were he not Romeo call'd...
    Last edited by Vinyadan; 2020-08-02 at 04:53 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by J.R.R. Tolkien, 1955
    I thought Tom Bombadil dreadful — but worse still was the announcer's preliminary remarks that Goldberry was his daughter (!), and that Willowman was an ally of Mordor (!!).

  9. - Top - End - #129
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    Default Re: Shakespearean English, or "Why is misunderstanding easier than learning?"

    Quote Originally Posted by mjp1050 View Post
    As in, "I want to go cry somewhere private instead of here." This is Juliet's soliloquy when she just found out her husband got banished for killing her cousin, so I'd say that's not an unwarranted reaction.

    I think you've misunderstood my position. I'm not arguing that "where" is the best (or correct) translation of "wherefore". I'm trying to explain why the mistake isn't as unreasonable as it's been made out to be.
    I would agree that, in most of these cases, these lines seem only slightly off. "Oh Romeo, where are you, Romeo" works vaguely as it could be "where are you now, Romeo?" and is fine, since she is talking to herself (especially since he reveals himself to be right there moments later). Beyond that, I think the issue is context -- Juliet is sitting by herself and talking to herself. Why couldn't she be asking about his location, then wondering if a name change (as mentioned, strangely his first name, which isn't the problematic one) would solve these problems? I think the context is a major issue. If, in among a series of slightly odd sounding dialogue, something sounds like a where term that kinda-sorta might not make perfect sense, are you going to notice that this slightly unusual wording is the one you aren't getting right and wonder what is up enough to go inquire. And that leads back to my primary conjecture -- most of the people who don't go about finding out what wherefore actually means fail to do so because they don't notice the issue, and they don't notice it because they don't care enough. Not some willful ignorance but instead the polar opposite -- benign non-investiture. Considering how many people experience Shakespeare through a class assignment they just want to get through or watching a play in which their child is performing, this seems at least highly plausible as an explanation.

  10. - Top - End - #130
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    Default Re: Shakespearean English, or "Why is misunderstanding easier than learning?"

    Quote Originally Posted by Willie the Duck View Post
    I would agree that, in most of these cases, these lines seem only slightly off. <snip>
    There is also the fact that the line itself is using nonstandard grammar, presumably for artistic/poetic reasons:
    "All this is comfort; wherefore weep I then?"

    "Wherefore weep I then" is V-S-O (heck, an argument can be made that it is in fact O-V-S, what with the semi-independent "all this comfort" clause before the question). Thus, the problems to the listener do not start and end with correctly interpreting the meaning of "wherefore", it is that the brain, wired as it is to expect S-V-O is now scrambling to re-arrange words to understand the sentence, and only then will it stop to think what "wherefore" means. But this is a play, you don't have the time, the next line is likely being delivered. So the brain takes a shortcut, assumes that "wherefore" is "where", and since it is already modifying the sentence, it assumes that makes some sense ("maybe she has a more austere room for being sad in?"), and keeps going.

    That "wherefore" is also practically a false friend is also an issue. Classic example: if a woman tells you in Spanish that she is "embarazada", pro-tip: they aren't embarrassed.

    Grey Wolf
    Last edited by Grey_Wolf_c; 2020-08-03 at 10:51 AM.
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    There is a world of imagination
    Deep in the corners of your mind
    Where reality is an intruder
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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  11. - Top - End - #131
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    Default Re: Shakespearean English, or "Why is misunderstanding easier than learning?"

    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post

    That "wherefore" is also practically a false friend is also an issue. Classic example: if a woman tells you in Spanish that she is "embarazada", pro-tip: they aren't embarrassed.

    Grey Wolf
    My high school Spanish teacher had a fun anecdote to go along with her false cognates lesson in this vein.

  12. - Top - End - #132
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    Default Re: Shakespearean English, or "Why is misunderstanding easier than learning?"

    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    That "wherefore" is also practically a false friend is also an issue. Classic example: if a woman tells you in Spanish that she is "embarazada", pro-tip: they aren't embarrassed.

    Grey Wolf
    Depends. If it's someone who doesn't know Spanish and is trying to rely on cognates (especially in a semipublic situation) they're about to be. Good times.
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  13. - Top - End - #133
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    Default Re: Shakespearean English, or "Why is misunderstanding easier than learning?"

    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    There is also the fact that the line itself is using nonstandard grammar, presumably for artistic/poetic reasons:
    "All this is comfort; wherefore weep I then?"

    That "wherefore" is also practically a false friend is also an issue

    Grey Wolf
    That was roughly a point I was also going to mention. "Oh but how could the sentence make any sense if we don't read it the way it was meant?" It's Shakespeare, none of it makes any sense to most people who are experiencing it!
    Shakespeare himself didn't even know how to spell his name at the time. He invented new words or for the first time in writing put down words in the a guise that in a couple of centuries only will be familiar to most readers. And the text is already "poetic". It is a bit like reading Norse stuff with kennings.

    It is all theses and thouses hastes. So if we already have to shorten and rearrange letters to make words into normal English, an drearrange words into proper sentences why wouldn't we do it here when we have a word that seems like we know what it should be.



    I come back to my earlier point about having to know that there is something we should be missing here. I would also like to emphasize that taking the position that everyone who gets it wrong is willfully ignorant and dumb (to bring it to it's point). It may not exactly be what some posters mean exactly, but that is how it tends to read. That's how you really get people's backs up and gets us the position the OP was also puzzled about, the "I don't want to learn am proud of it" problem.

    There are 5 pages of discussion with a lot of people agreeing on how it could easily be misunderstood and providing logical chains of thoguht of how we end up from A to C. Please accept that it is a possibility, and has happened often. Often enough to be it's own trope in Bugs Bunny. Where of course half of us heard it in the first place.

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