Episode 9: Duel of the Fates Script

[Iskar Jarak]

This a summary of a draft of the script for Tervorrow’s Duel of the Fates, the original conception of Episode 9. It isn’t official (it got leaked online a while back), but I do think this is the real deal. Let me preface this by saying that it’s very difficult to write a good screenplay. It probably wasn’t too difficult to write this.

“The iron grip of the FIRST ORDER has spread to the farthest reaches of the galaxy. Only a few scattered planets remain unoccupied. Traitorous acts are punishable by death. Determined to suffocate a growing unrest, Supreme Leader KYLO REN has silenced all communication between neighbouring systems. Led by GENERAL LEIA ORGANA, the Resistance has planned a secret mission to prevent their annihilation and forge a path to freedom...”

(Aside: It’s consistently established that Duel of the Fates is quite a few years after The Last Jedi.) We kick off with an action scene at Kuat Drive Shipyards with our main cast. They try and blow up a fuel shaft. The Imperials’ safeguards stop them and they start to swarm our heroes (including Rose) with Stormtroopers. Rey has a double lightsabre now. Finn recognises a Stormtrooper. Civilians block the incoming Stormtroopers and our heroes and Poe escape. Rey mindtricks the bridge crew of an Eclipse Destroyer and they fly off to the Resistance base. Rey and Poe make a great team. The Knights of Ren show up and execute the admiral in charge. There’s some lip-service to them having personalities, but they don’t really. Hattaska Ren is their darksabre wielding leader, Ott and Lorl Ren work as a duo and Jaedec Ren is “the rogue”.

On Coruscant, in its underbelly, we get a scene where a street kid throws a chunk of cement at a Stormtrooper patrol, then escapes. Hux’s big hologram presides over an execution of random-helpy-alien-from-the-last-scene by laser guillotine. The crowd is unhappy.

Hux and an assortment of alien warlords awkwardly exposit at each other for a bit. Rey is a symbol of hope, the Knights of Ren are hunting her down, Kylo’s after ancient knowledge.

On Mustafar, Kylo enters Vader’s castle. Luke haunts him. Their conversation isn’t too far from, “You’re a ghost.” “No, you.” Luke gets bored and wanders off. Kylo finds a Sith Holocron. It contains a message from Palps, who tells Vader to take Luke to his master’s master, Tor Valum (if Luke kills him). Midway through the message, the Holocron scans Kylo, the message starts to break up, and the holocron shoots red lightning into Kylo’s eyes. It gives Kylo Sith cancer and makes him ugly. (Kylo’s definitely going to die now.)

At the Resistance Base, the First Order bridge crew are arrested. Poe continues being a delightful maverick. I love Poe. He’s the best. The script tells me so. Leia points out that the Eclipse could be swarming with Imperials. Poe laughs it off. Poe’s casual disregard for the lives of everyone in the Resistance makes me laugh too. Finn and Rey talk. Rey feels burdened and still wants to redeem Kylo Ren.

Despite being otherwise empty, the Eclipse is loaded with Imperial weaponry. All the Resistance needs now is an army. The Ancient Jedi text helpfully talks about a pre-Old Republic Force-powered communications beacon that they can use to call for help without getting blocked by the First Order.

Rey’s in a Jedi dojo. She gets a vision of Kylo. He’s in worse shape than before. As everyone knows, the only treatment for Sith cancer is to get metal smelted onto your face. Kylo and Rey both get a vision of them fighting on the Boss-Fight Planet. Kylo kills Rey in the vision. Luke and Rey talk about Mortis, the planet in the vision: “It’s an ancient place. From a time before the Jedi, before the Sith. Two thrones, two powerful beings. One of darkness, the other of light. Together, they brought balance.” It’s also established that there’s a massive well of Force power on Mortis than Kylo must be prevented from reaching. Luke wants Rey to kill Kylo, presumably because he called him a ghost. Rey wants to ignore this crap. Kylo gets a new mask – it’s even cooler than Vader’s! (Or so the script tells us.)

Hux has been made a laughing stock at every turn, but now it’s time for Hux to be a real menace once again. In his office, he looks at an antique lightsabre “with envy” and then tries to use the Force. He tries to use the Force. He fails. He says, “Nnnnnnnggghhh...” Kylo shows up as a hologram and they just re-establish things we already know.

Poe gets to do the mission briefing. Because he’s the best. And I quote, “Leia smiles. He’s great.” I feel ill. Poe also gives us an, “as you know”. The First Order’s transmission blocker is located in their Capitol, which the Resistance lacks the manpower to assault so they’re going to activate the Force-beacon under the Jedi Temple. Finn and Rose are in charge of that. Rey doesn’t want to go. She apparently decided to go to Mortis while off-screen.
Poe and Rey talk. Poe’s going help Rey find Mortis. They’re in love with each other, but Rey feels like they can’t be together because of the Jedi code.

Huh. I just woke up next to a copy of Lobotomies: DIY and a bloody scalpel. I feel great. On with the summary.

Rose and Finn talk about saving Stormtroopers.

Kylo tells Vader’s mask that Vader allowed, “love to cloud your judgement,” and chucks it off a balcony.

Leia tells Rey that Kylo can’t be saved. She also says that Rey should get together with someone called “Poe”. Leia waffles about balance and says that Rey is “new.”

Just then the First Order arrives, with Hux on the Finaliser Destroyer. The Resistance escape aboard the Eclipse and Rey, Poe and Chewie escape on the Falcon. This Poe jerk steals Chewie’s seat. R2-D2, C-3P0, Finn and Rose escape on their own ship, but not before Rose says, “Tell me the odds. I like numbers.” The planet can’t withstand terrible dialogue of that magnitude and explodes. (It was either that or the Finaliser's superlaser.)
The Falcon is pursued by the Knights of Ren’s own ship through the planet’s debris before escaping to hyperspace. The Knights of Ren’s leader (in a glass electro-oxygen chamber with wires and whatnot) senses where they’re going.

Kylo lands on Tor Valum’s planet. He walks through the remains of an ancient battlefield. Tor Valum crawls out of a pile of junk. He seems to be really weird looking and extremely old. He’s like “That name [Darth Plagueis] means nothing to me.” Kylo pops his mask off again. His Sith cancer is even worse. Tor Valum talks about Mortis. The power there will allow Kylo to, “rule the galaxy without armies, without starships.” Even better, it’ll let Kylo fix his face. Tor Valum offers to teach Kylo how to steal the Living Force. Kylo kneels.

The Falcon lands on Bonadan to meet with Poe’s navigator friend who’ll help them find Mortis. Poe gives us some funny space racism. Poe neggs Rey into buying a sari. “Rey’s colourful sari gives her an exotic elegance we’ve never seen.” Rey and Poe bond while walking through the market. A stormtrooper heads towards them. Rey pulls Poe into a kiss to hide their faces and the stormtrooper walks on. Interesting. It seems Mr. Trevorrow is a time-traveller from the 1950s. The screenplay then reads: “He’s [Poe] never kissed a Jedi.” Rey pretends the kiss was purely to avoid the stormtrooper. Then everyone in a 500-metre radius starts vomiting uncontrollably. They go meet Poe’s friend. She spouts some vague nonsense and tops it off by saying that’s not even the only way things could play out.

Finn and Rose grapple their way into the Jedi Temple spire and slot some kyber crystals into the wall to make the beacon rise out of the floor.

We see Kylo drain the life from an animal, leaving it a husk. Tor Valum tells Kylo there hasn’t been enough fanservice yet (he's wrong) and sends him to fight Darth Vader in a vision cave.
Kylo’s impatient to go to Mortis. Tor Valum’s like, “nah.” Kylo force holds him, extracts the information he wants from his mind then Force drains him. Tor Valum dies. To quote Tor Valum earlier: “You threaten me with death. How amusing.” Tor Valum is now dead. He doesn’t come back in any capacity.

Rose repairs the beacon. It shoots a column of light into the sky. We get a montage of different planets receiving Leia’s message.

Kylo Ren uses the Force to stop the message. “The light in the sky halts. Stopped by an immoveable force.” (Trevorrow has heard of this Physics stuff, and he wants you to know it.)
This causes the beacon to explode.
Finn and Rose are attacked by TIE fighters. Rose totally falls to her death.

Rey and Poe are attacked by the Knights of Ren. Poe gets shot. This makes Rey angry for some reason. Rey kills Ott and Lorl Ren (she Force pulls one onto her lightsabre), Chewbacca kills the other one. Rey is disarmed by Hattaska. She recognises his mask from somewhere then electrocutes to death him with Force Lightning. “Hattaska Ren’s skull flashes within his helmet...”
Rey decides to go on alone and mind tricks Poe into leaving. Happily, Poe’s head has never had two thoughts in it before and it explodes. Unfortunately, it turns out that Poe’s head didn’t contain anything important and he flies off in the Falcon with Chewie and BB-8 anyway. Rey takes off in the Knights of Ren’s ship.

Finn ambushes a stormtrooper and tells him to rebel.

Hux is interrogating Rose. He attempts to use the Force on her. This is just sad.

Leia talks with Luke’s ghost and then Lando. She wants him to rally some ships together.

Street kid from earlier meets Finn and leads him to a camp of loads of escaped citizens. Finn gives the people a speech and they’re all like “Wow, we didn’t even think of that doing that before. Let’s go kill the First Order.”

Rey and Kylo are heading towards the Temple on Mortis. They both have Force visions of their pasts.

Finn and some rebels hijack an AT-MT. Finn shouts revolutionary stuff through a loudspeaker.
Hux dispatches “brutetroopers” to quell the rebellion. They’re mean mercenaries and kitted out in armour like Phasma.
Finn has a fight with a brutetrooper atop the AT-MT. The stormtrooper Finn spoke to earlier turns up to help, along with more stormtroopers.

Poe convinces Leia to join the attack on the First Order Capitol.

Kylo and Rey meet on Mortis. Rey tells us that her parents were hiding her from Kylo, and that Kylo and the Knights of Ren killed them. Presumably, they borrowed Trevorrow’s time machine to pull this off. Rey and Kylo fight.

Chewie is shunted off into an X-Wing with BB-8 while Poe flies the Falcon. Something seems amiss here, but I can’t quite put my finger on it. What ships do these characters normally fly? It only makes sense that Trevorrow gets to fly the Falcon, I suppose.

Standard action fare on Coruscant.
Leia’s in command of the Eclipse in a big spaceship battle above Coruscant.

Kylo takes his mask off again. Kylo blinds Rey with his lightsabre and then enters the temple, leaving Rey behind.
Rose – now loose in the Capitol – learns that it is actually a ship. This hadn’t been foreshadowed at all. She begins hacking its hyperdrive.

Things are going badly for the Resistance all-round. Chewie crash lands.

Rose requires something in R2-D2’s memory banks to hack the Capitol’s hyperdrive. R2-D2 catches a laser blast and dies. They transfer his memory drive to BB-8, who rolls off through the battle. C-3P0 refuses to leave R2-D2. Chewie hefts R2-D2’s corpse onto his back. Chewie gets hit multiple times, but keeps going.
Things continue to get worse for the Resistance.

Kylo reaches the well of power, but there’s nothing there. (The movie sure fooled us good. It told us repeatedly about this well, but all that was wrong. This is never explained.) Luke’s Force Ghost shows up for some gloating. Kylo forgets Luke is a ghost and attacks him. Trevorrow forgets that Luke is a ghost and Luke catches Kylo’s lightsabre with his hand. Luke disowns Kylo, then gives a heroic speech. We get a montage of our heroes and Poe. Everyone is inspired. Rey blindfolds herself and fights Kylo again. Rey says, “Our Masters were wrong. I will not deny my anger. And I will not reject my love.”

Lando shows up with thousands of smuggler ships. The First Order starts losing.
Rose finishes hacking the Capitol. Poe does some repulsive Poe stuff and devastates the First Order ground forces. The Capitol prepares to take off. “Hux realises the tragic truth. He lost the star wars.” Hux kills himself with his antique lightsabre. (Note that the script says that the First Order has still won if the Capitol isn't destroyed. Someone should have told Hux.)

Rey destroys Kylo’s lightsabre and a few fingers. Kylo remembers his ability to suck the Living Force from Rey and does that.

Leia talks to Kylo through the Force. He takes Rey’s hand and the Living Force flows back into her. Kylo and Rey lean against each other. Kylo tells Rey her last name – Solana – then dies.

Rose escapes the Capitol then reunites with Finn and Co. The Capitol flies into a star. “The impact is so massive, so galaxy-shaking, it’s visible for light years.” (Physics!)

Rey floats her way onto the “Astral Plane” and sees Luke, Yoda and Obi-Wan. We get that scene from Harry Potter where Rey gets a choice to return or remain. We don’t see Rey make her decision.

Finn Rose Poe and Chewie get medals. Leia repairs R2-D2 and he shows us a bunch of his memories. All from the Original Trilogy, naturally.
Poe and Chewie set off in the Falcon to find Rey.
Finn is telling stories to a bunch of Force-sensitive kids. Rose and BB-8 are still kicking around. Rey then just turns up on the horizon. The screenplay tells us that Rey will train a new generation of Jedi.

* * *

Well, it’s safe say that the real Sith cancer was Poe.
Rey’s parents’ story really did not need changed, especially not so clumsily. The ending to the Rey and Kylo storyline was stupid and pointless. I guess Luke and Tor Valum both decided to lie to the audience and their pupils about Mortis. Luke can even go there any time and check. Luke usurps Rey’s heroic speech moment and catches a lightsabre. That’s just bad. Then Rey loses again anyway when Kylo does something he should just have opened with. Kylo’s redemption is sudden and unearned. The ending proper is also messy and stupid. The “balance” bit is just something characters talk about. You could remove that dialogue and nothing would change. I don’t care for this kind of tacked-on, only-exists-in-dialogue conflict at all. Rey’s choice on the Astral Plane is forced and confusing.

The villains are extremely weak in this script. Hux is somehow even more of an embarrassment than before. Kylo spends way too much time taking his mask on and off. The whole Sith Cancer thing was completely unnecessary, as were Hux’s efforts at using the Force.
You can’t have a character like Tor Valum and then have him be randomly and easily killed. No Sith ever thought of offing Tor Valum before?
Palp’s Sith Holocron security system was... lacking. In every way. Vader's "castle" being on Mustafar is... a thing.

Some aspects are far better than what we got. It actually gives most of its cast something to do. Rey and Kylo wander off to do their own stupid thing that doesn’t matter, but I don’t think it’s that much worse than what they actually did in Rise of Skywalker. Rey’s arc is kind of a wreck in both scripts. Rather than turning into Han Solo, Poe turns into a hideous Mary Sue, but that’s nothing that cutting him out of every scene can’t fix. Chewie, Finn and Rose are treated way better here than in Rise of Skywalker and actually do things. Coruscant is a way more interesting location than Planet Strobe-Light. There’s also a lot less time wasted on fake-out deaths, punching the Last Jedi, and incredibly stupid and boring MacGuffins and their attendant exposition. If I was writing Episode 9, I’d hurl the entirety of Abram’s script into a fire, but I’d keep elements of this one.

[Fyraltari]

laser guillotine.

This clearly was a masterpiece and its loss the greatest tragedy of our times.

[Saph]

The villains are extremely weak in this script. Hux is somehow even more of an embarrassment than before.

I'm not even sure that's possible, given how much of a joke he was in Episodes 7 and 8.

Writing decisions like how they chose to do Hux just genuinely confuse me. I mean, they had to know they were presenting him as completely unthreatening, right? Yet they still have him as an adversary over and over again as if he's supposed to be dangerous or something.

[Peelee]

laser guillotine.

This clearly was a masterpiece and its loss the greatest tragedy of our times.

Spoiler

Show

I'm not even sure that's possible, given how much of a joke he was in Episodes 7 and 8.

Writing decisions like how they chose to do Hux just genuinely confuse me. I mean, they had to know they were presenting him as completely unthreatening, right? Yet they still have him as an adversary over and over again as if he's supposed to be dangerous or something.

You should really review The Rise of Skywalker. Though for the sake of your sanity I also hope you never do.

[Fyraltari]

I'm not even sure that's possible, given how much of a joke he was in Episodes 7 and 8.

Writing decisions like how they chose to do Hux just genuinely confuse me. I mean, they had to know they were presenting him as completely unthreatening, right? Yet they still have him as an adversary over and over again as if he's supposed to be dangerous or something.

Well he was threatening in VII, VIII to its discredit turned him into a joke and IX to its credit didn’t try to make him threatening again.

[Iskar Jarak]

I'm not even sure that's possible, given how much of a joke he was in Episodes 7 and 8.

Writing decisions like how they chose to do Hux just genuinely confuse me. I mean, they had to know they were presenting him as completely unthreatening, right? Yet they still have him as an adversary over and over again as if he's supposed to be dangerous or something.

It really shouldn't have been possible. Hux sits in his office and tries to use the Force until he's red in the face. There's nothing special about that day. We can only assume he tries this every single day. Hux -- knowing full well he can't use the Force at all -- then tries to interrogate someone using the Force. It is so very sad.

I'm guessing Hux -- who is very blatantly a fascist -- being depicted as a buffoon is for commentary on stuff.There was no way to recover from the previous episodes, so I guess Trevorrow decided to go all out. That's fine. Fortunately, we have a menacing Sith dude in the form of Kylo Ren to really threaten... oh. Who can antagonise our heroes effectively? Don't worry, we still have Snoke's top half.

[Sapphire Guard]

Yeah, I read this when it was first leaked.

Important point: this was the first draft of the script. First drafts are never intended to be released. There is a final draft of this that has not been leaked yet, where Kylo and Rey team up against Sollony Ren in the final battle.

There was a potentially good arc for Hux here. The thing is, he is unquestionably the most dangerous man in the FO. Starkiller and Hyperspace tracking completely devastate the FO's opposition, but his bosses keep abusing and belittling him anyway.

There was a good plot in Hux finally snapping under the abuse, usurping Kylo and coming into his own, but that's not what we got, in any script.

The title is rather odd. Duel of the Fates is associated with Obi and Qui Gon v Maul, which has absolutely nothing to do with anything in this story.

[NotASpiderSwarm]

I don't utterly hate this. It's not good, but it's a first draft. There's a lot of problems, but you can see the bones of a plot, individual character arcs, etc, which is more than the final version of 9 had.

(Still takes time to completely ignore the Ep 8 answer about Rey's parents in favor of something much worse)

[Yora]

They couldn't title it "Episode 9: Lots of cool Fan Service"

[Zevox]

You know, for all that's wrong with that script, at least it didn't randomly resurrect a long-dead villain with no explanation, then decide that Rey was secretly his granddaughter all along. In theory, Kylo learning from some other, much older Sith Lord is a better way to handle the villain's side of things. Kind of late in the third movie of a trilogy and shows what a mistake it was to off his previous mentor when they did, but still.

But yeah, wow, everything with Poe in there... what? Did they just decide to pair him with Rey because Finn and Rose were already a couple, and they couldn't have any of the main characters not have a romance subplot? Yeesh...

[Iskar Jarak]

Yeah, I read this when it was first leaked.

Important point: this was the first draft of the script. First drafts are never intended to be released. There is a final draft of this that has not been leaked yet, where Kylo and Rey team up against Sollony Ren in the final battle.

There was a potentially good arc for Hux here. The thing is, he is unquestionably the most dangerous man in the FO. Starkiller and Hyperspace tracking completely devastate the FO's opposition, but his bosses keep abusing and belittling him anyway.

There was a good plot in Hux finally snapping under the abuse, usurping Kylo and coming into his own, but that's not what we got, in any script.

I didn't realise that this was the first draft. It's telling that it's a toss-up between a first draft and the ostensibly polished product of Rise of Skywalker. I won't be doing a more detailed comparison of their relative merits because I'm unwilling to watch Rise of Skywalker ever again.
I'm confident that Trevorrow could have produced something a lot better than Rise of Skywalker if he had been given the opportunity. I'm forgiving of some amusing first draft wonkiness (things like, "Tell me the odds. I like numbers," which you could reasonably assume would get replaced), but other things like the problems with Poe-Rey shouldn't exist at any stage.

In TLJ, Hux comes close to executing an unconscious Kylo, but he wakes up in the nick of time. The set-up is clearly there for conflict between Hux and Kylo. However, I don't think that Hux could hope to be the main villain; the opening scenes of TLJ saw to that. I never really got the sense that Hux was dangerous because of his personal qualities -- the danger Hux represents is because of his position in the First Order, and from what we've seen of Hux almost anyone could do his job.
That said, with the proper set-up, I'd really enjoy a Death of Stalin plotline where the First Order leaders scrabble for power while their empire falls apart (it would also give Snoke's death consequences).

[Devonix]

I didn't realise that this was the first draft. It's telling that it's a toss-up between a first draft and the ostensibly polished product of Rise of Skywalker. I won't be doing a more detailed comparison of their relative merits because I'm unwilling to watch Rise of Skywalker ever again.
I'm confident that Trevorrow could have produced something a lot better than Rise of Skywalker if he had been given the opportunity. I'm forgiving of some amusing first draft wonkiness (things like, "Tell me the odds. I like numbers," which you could reasonably assume would get replaced), but other things like the problems with Poe-Rey shouldn't exist at any stage.

In TLJ, Hux comes close to executing an unconscious Kylo, but he wakes up in the nick of time. The set-up is clearly there for conflict between Hux and Kylo. However, I don't think that Hux could hope to be the main villain; the opening scenes of TLJ saw to that. I never really got the sense that Hux was dangerous because of his personal qualities -- the danger Hux represents is because of his position in the First Order, and from what we've seen of Hux almost anyone could do his job.
That said, with the proper set-up, I'd really enjoy a Death of Stalin plotline where the First Order leaders scrabble for power while their empire falls apart (it would also give Snoke's death consequences).

Hux was never cut out to be the main villain, but I'd say that was the point. Hux was being set up to be the Starscream to Kylo Ren's Megatron for the 3rd film.

[Dienekes]

I'm not even sure that's possible, given how much of a joke he was in Episodes 7 and 8.

Writing decisions like how they chose to do Hux just genuinely confuse me. I mean, they had to know they were presenting him as completely unthreatening, right? Yet they still have him as an adversary over and over again as if he's supposed to be dangerous or something.

Hux like most of the Prequels left me thinking they were going to try and do something kinda neat about him. And just no. It doesn't go anywhere.

In both 7 and 8, it's Hux that accomplishes literally everything that the First Order succeeds at. Who runs the Trooper project? Hux. Who led the new Death Star? Hux. Who blew up the freaking Senate? Hux. Who had the plan to follow the Rebel Fleet through hyperspace? Hux. Who caught the heroes and bribed DJ to switch sides? Hux.

What does Snoke and Kylo do? Good question.

Quite frankly, he's the most successful Imperial Officer in all of the Star Wars movies.

But the dialogue keeps laughing at him. I was sure they were going to do something with that. But nope. He just gets blasted to make room for a supposedly more competent Officer character who doesn't actually do anything.

[Zevox]

What does Snoke and Kylo do? Good question.

Snoke at least succeeds in tricking Rey into coming to him, and pulls Luke's location from her mind. It's basically the only thing anyone accomplished in The Last Jedi. It amounted to nothing and any indication of intelligence or competence on his part from it was undercut by the incredibly stupid way he died immediately thereafter, but still, that's more than I can say for anyone else in that film.

[NotASpiderSwarm]

Snoke at least succeeds in tricking Rey into coming to him, and pulls Luke's location from her mind. It's basically the only thing anyone accomplished in The Last Jedi. It amounted to nothing and any indication of intelligence or competence on his part from it was undercut by the incredibly stupid way he died immediately thereafter, but still, that's more than I can say for anyone else in that film.

Snoke dies because he's overconfident and gets betrayed by another Sith, which is the primary way Sith die(Dooku, Palp, the Rule of 2 in general).

(From a meta perspective, Snoke dies because he's pointless. He's another JJAbrams mystery, a way to make fans run around going "who's Snoke, what can he do, where did he come from" without JJ ever having to come up with an answer. We have actual villains, all of whom have more interesting stuff happen on-screen, Snoke is just a random dude in a chair. So he dies, Kylo seizes power and becomes the main villain. Hux hates Kylo, which sets up an exploitable dynamic. And Kylo may be at the top of his power, but he also just got humiliated by Luke in front of everyone and has burned every bridge with Rey. He's at the top of his power AND the lowest point of his life. There's a lot more you can do with that than a cackling madman throwing lightning from his recliner. )

[Peelee]

Snoke dies because he's overconfident and gets betrayed by another Sith, which is the primary way Sith die(Dooku, Palp, the Rule of 2 in general).

Not a Sith.

[Fyraltari]

Not a Sith.

Sith in all but name of you don’t take RoS into account and if you do actually the Sithest Sith to ever Sith.

[Peelee]

Sith in all but name of you don’t take RoS into account and if you do actually the Sithest Sith to ever Sith.

If you define "Sith" as "dark side Force user" or "force user who hates Jedi," then yes, all but name, but also restrictive definitions.

And with TROS, then yes, he should be the Sithiest Sith that ever Sithed. That would be the logical follow-up. And ****ing yet...

[Fyraltari]

If you define "Sith" as "dark side Force user" or "force user who hates Jedi," then yes, all but name, but also restrictive definitions.

Look if they had given a name to the Force tradition Snoke alledgedly belonged to I’d use it but lacking that:

If it looks like a duck Sith...

And with TROS, then yes, he should be the Sithiest Sith that ever Sithed. That would be the logical follow-up. And ****ing yet...

No should about it, the film clearly states that he was Palpatine.

[Peelee]

Look if they had given a name to the Force tradition Snoke alledgedly belonged to I’d use it but lacking that:

If it looks like a duck Sith...


No should about it, the film clearly states that he was Palpatine.

The film clearly states that Palpatine was Snoke. And yet, canonically, Snoke is not a Sith. Snoke also creates Starkiller Base, an enormous investment in resources that are wily unnecessary when Palpatine already has a fleet a thousand times the size of the First Order's, each equipped with plenty destroying lasers, before Starkiller Base has even fired its first shot. It's almost as if the ST is a nonsensical mess bookended by Abrams doing nothing but throwing out fanservice and calling it a movie.

[Sapphire Guard]

Even without TROS, Snoke is technically not a Sith, but otherwise looks and acts exactly like one.

I think the canon that he's not a Sith is probably just to preserve the twist.

[hungrycrow]

The film clearly states that Palpatine was Snoke. And yet, canonically, Snoke is not a Sith. Snoke also creates Starkiller Base, an enormous investment in resources that are wily unnecessary when Palpatine already has a fleet a thousand times the size of the First Order's, each equipped with plenty destroying lasers, before Starkiller Base has even fired its first shot. It's almost as if the ST is a nonsensical mess bookended by Abrams doing nothing but throwing out fanservice and calling it a movie.

Snoke also tries to have Rey killed, who Palpatine needs as a host.

[Vinyadan]

I thought that the film stated that Palpa created Snoke, complete with showing pieces of Snoke-like creatures in a vat in the laboratory where he was made. Was he puppeting him?

[Fyraltari]

The film clearly states that Palpatine was Snoke. And yet, canonically, Snoke is not a Sith. Snoke also creates Starkiller Base, an enormous investment in resources that are wily unnecessary when Palpatine already has a fleet a thousand times the size of the First Order's, each equipped with plenty destroying lasers, before Starkiller Base has even fired its first shot. It's almost as if the ST is a nonsensical mess bookended by Abrams doing nothing but throwing out fanservice and calling it a movie.

Yup, sounds like trying to to keep a constistent canon in a franchise that started its retcon addiction back in its second movie is a doomed endeavour.

[Peelee]

Yup, sounds like trying to to keep a constistent canon in a franchise that started its retcon addiction back in its second movie is a doomed endeavour.

I agree, but trying would have at least been appreciated,and the very least Abrams could have done. Shame he didn't.

[Zalabim]

No should about it, the film clearly states that he was Palpatine.

The film clearly states that Palpatine was Snoke.

You either have a different definition of clearly states or a different definition of was than I do. The film says Palpatine created Snoke. That's all. You might as well say Dr. Abraham Erskine was Captain America.

I thought that the film stated that Palpa created Snoke, complete with showing pieces of Snoke-like creatures in a vat in the laboratory where he was made. Was he puppeting him?

That is what the film stated. I don't know why people get it wrong. Was he puppeting Snoke? Probably not. There's too many actions that don't make sense if they come from Palpatine's direct control.

[Sapphire Guard]

A creation that slipped the leash? I think that actually works.

[comicshorse]

A creation that slipped the leash? I think that actually works.

You would have though Palpatine would have learned that lesson the first time it happened

[Fyraltari]

I agree, but trying would have at least been appreciated,and the very least Abrams could have done. Shame he didn't.

Definitely. But canonically, Snoke is a Sith so either don't correct that or stop correcting people who say Chirrut has Force powers.

You either have a different definition of clearly states or a different definition of was than I do. The film says Palpatine created Snoke. That's all. You might as well say Dr. Abraham Erskine was Captain America.


That is what the film stated. I don't know why people get it wrong. Was he puppeting Snoke? Probably not. There's too many actions that don't make sense if they come from Palpatine's direct control.

He sates, in Snoke's voice that he was every voice inside Kylo Ren's head, which includes Snoke's. Ergo he was Snoke.

[Zevox]

Snoke dies because he's overconfident and gets betrayed by another Sith, which is the primary way Sith die(Dooku, Palp, the Rule of 2 in general).

If by "overconfident," you mean "stupidly closed his eyes to imagine Rey's death rather than actually watching it for no reason whatsoever, and then was deaf enough that he was unable to hear a lightsaber moving on the metal arm of his chair to aim at him," then yes, he died to being "overconfident."

Personally, that looks a lot more like contrived stupidity rooted in bad writing to me, but describe as seems fitting to you, I suppose.

(From a meta perspective, Snoke dies because he's pointless. He's another JJAbrams mystery, a way to make fans run around going "who's Snoke, what can he do, where did he come from" without JJ ever having to come up with an answer. We have actual villains, all of whom have more interesting stuff happen on-screen, Snoke is just a random dude in a chair. So he dies, Kylo seizes power and becomes the main villain. Hux hates Kylo, which sets up an exploitable dynamic. And Kylo may be at the top of his power, but he also just got humiliated by Luke in front of everyone and has burned every bridge with Rey. He's at the top of his power AND the lowest point of his life. There's a lot more you can do with that than a cackling madman throwing lightning from his recliner. )

I cannot agree with any of that. Kylo is a pathetic wannabe who fails at everything we ever see him try, including losing a 1-on-1 to Rey when she'd just found out she's force-sensitive and had never used a lightsaber before in her life; he's incapable of being the main villain. Hux was a generic military dude in TFA and was reduced to villain-side comic relief in TLJ, he's neither interesting nor capable of being the main villain. Snoke is a shallow Palpatine rip-off, but at least he displays an iota of competence and ability to threaten the heroes (well, Rey, anyway) on at least one occasion, which immediately puts him head and shoulders over those two. I don't think he's a good villain, but Kylo and Hux set the bar so low that he doesn't have to be in order to be better than them.