Episode 9: Duel of the Fates Script

[Dienekes]

Fett's personality is ruthless and efficient, both of which come off in ESB. TR8R's personality is... angry? Fett's costume is unique. TR8R's costume is the same stormtrooper armor as all other stormtroopers. Fett one-ups the Empire in general and Vader in particular, and is able to contest Vader better than the Empire's own top officers. TR8R has an electric stick thingie.

Dies stupidly and devoted fanbase I'll grant you.

Taking as someone who does not like either of them and does not undertsand the fanbase of both these characters at all. Here's my take.

Eh. Fett is ruthless and efficient. Is about on par with TR8R is angry and hurt by disloyalty among the troops. Neither are actual real personalities. They're just stock characteristics to get the scene to play out correctly. Neither side gets points on that one.

Fett's costume is definitely more unique than TR8R, though gotta be honest here. The use of the electro-mace was cooler in action than anything Fett actually does in any fight scene. Would have been cooler still if we got some choreography using that shield he just... throws away. I guess we can add "honorable duelist" to his list of pseudo-character traits? In either case Fett gets the point on that one. But it's closer than it should be at first glance.

Fett's shtick is actually his cunning more than anything else we see in the OT. Figuring out Han's trick took some thought. But that's about it. Nothing he really does after that point shows any real skill. Vader does the heavy lifting of the capture. In his fight scenes he accomplishes basically nothing. He talks back to Vader, which is full of implied badassery. Pity we don't ever see it.

On the other hand TR8R's only characteristic is fighting. He beat Finn and was going for the killing blow. You can make the case that his loathing of disloyalty stems from some hidden depths to the character. But that's slightly less meaningful than Fett's talking back to Vader. All implied with no substance.

Then we get to deaths. And I would say they both die about as anti-climatically as you can get. Which is worse, blind man with a stick or shot from offscreen. I might say shot from offscreen is worse from my perspective. Because at least Fett's death was framed as having actual stakes in the fight and played up Han's development. It was set up and executed. It was silly, but doesn't take you out of the scene. While TR8R just sort of happens.

So yeah, I can see a comparison between the two. Fett's the better character. But not by much.

[Peelee]

Taking as someone who does not like either of them and does not undertsand the fanbase of both these characters at all. Here's my take.

Eh. Fett is ruthless and efficient. Is about on par with TR8R is angry and hurt by disloyalty among the troops. Neither are actual real personalities. They're just stock characteristics to get the scene to play out correctly. Neither side gets points on that one.

Ruthlessness and efficiency are actual character traits. Anger is an emotion. Literally anyone can be angry. You could replace TR8R with any other stormtrooper and the character would be mostly the same - maybe he wouldn't throw down the shield for no reason if he was someone else, but that's about it.

Fett's costume is definitely more unique than TR8R, though gotta be honest here. The use of the electro-mace was cooler in action than anything Fett actually does in any fight scene. Would have been cooler still if we got some choreography using that shield he just... throws away. I guess we can add "honorable duelist" to his list of pseudo-character traits? In either case Fett gets the point on that one. But it's closer than it should be at first glance.

Closer than it should be? Fett's costume is entirely unique, only having a (rather lengthy) bridge built towards stormtrooper armor through the prequels. TR8R is, again, a stock stormtrooper with shockystick. 99% the same as every other stormtrooper. In what way is this closer than it should be?

Fett's shtick is actually his cunning more than anything else we see in the OT. Figuring out Han's trick took some thought. But that's about it. Nothing he really does after that point shows any real skill. Vader does the heavy lifting of the capture. In his fight scenes he accomplishes basically nothing. He talks back to Vader, which is full of implied badassery. Pity we don't ever see it.

Fett (and the stormtroopers) herd Luke towards Vader's trap, deliberately missing believably so that he is unharmed for the Emperor. There is no implied badasser in his standing up to Vader - he does, and Vader negotiates with him. This is a contrast to, for example, Lando, who Vader simply walks over like he doesn't even exist, changing the deal Lando had as Vader sees fit. This is Vader directly letting the audience know he respects Fett more than any other villain we have seen such far, barring the Emperor.

[Dargaron]

Fett's costume is definitely more unique than TR8R, though gotta be honest here. The use of the electro-mace was cooler in action than anything Fett actually does in any fight scene. Would have been cooler still if we got some choreography using that shield he just... throws away. I guess we can add "honorable duelist" to his list of pseudo-character traits? In either case Fett gets the point on that one. But it's closer than it should be at first glance.

Remember that Fett introduced the first Star Wars jetpack in the movies. So on the "interesting tech" field, he's got an edge. As much as I love the idea of the shock tonfa, having personal flight capabilities seems a mite more impressive.

[Fyraltari]

Fett's personality is ruthless and efficient, both of which come off in ESB. TR8R's personality is... angry? Fett's costume is unique. TR8R's costume is the same stormtrooper armor as all other stormtroopers. Fett one-ups the Empire in general and Vader in particular, and is able to contest Vader better than the Empire's own top officers. TR8R has an electric stick thingie.

Dies stupidly and devoted fanbase I'll grant you.

Honestly it’s mostly the last thing. Boba Fett is, too me, one of the purest character of what tvtropes calls an Ensemble Dark Horse a character whose popularity is disproportionate with their involvement in the story.

Remember that Fett introduced the first Star Wars jetpack in the movies. So on the "interesting tech" field, he's got an edge. As much as I love the idea of the shock tonfa, having personal flight capabilities seems a mite more impressive.

You do you but a lightsaber-resistant shock tonfa is more impressive to me than a jetpack.

And really that’s the core of TR8R’s popularity. Fett May have outsmarted Solo, but FN-2199 beat took on a guy with a lightsaber in mêlée and won.

[Dienekes]

Remember that Fett introduced the first Star Wars jetpack in the movies. So on the "interesting tech" field, he's got an edge. As much as I love the idea of the shock tonfa, having personal flight capabilities seems a mite more impressive.

Which he uses to move up to Luke and get hit. And then fly into a wall. Real cool there.

Ruthlessness and efficiency are actual character traits. Anger is an emotion. Literally anyone can be angry. You could replace TR8R with any other stormtrooper and the character would be mostly the same - maybe he wouldn't throw down the shield for no reason if he was someone else, but that's about it.

Angry at disloyalty is a character trait. Willingness to throw down weapons to fight his opponent "fair" is a character trait. The other Troopers don't really seem to care. He's the one that screamed and tried to fight the traitor above all else. That's character man. A shallow character, sure. But not any more than Fett. You could replace Fett with any other bounty hunter and nothing is changed. We'd just get a design swap.

Closer than it should be? Fett's costume is entirely unique, only having a (rather lengthy) bridge built towards stormtrooper armor through the prequels. TR8R is, again, a stock stormtrooper with shockystick. 99% the same as every other stormtrooper. In what way is this closer than it should be?

In terms of cool factor? Yeah. Fett's design is far more different. No doubt about it. But it's mostly a bunch of stuff that doesn't do much. A rocket he doesn't shoot. A jetpack that he fails at.

TR8R was given one unique thing to him, but he uses it pretty well. But what's actually important about either of them is: is there enough framing around them that they stand out to the audience. And for both, yeah, they do. That's why we can talk about Fett and TR8R. Because for some reason their design, actions, and role in the story makes the audience remember them.

Fett (and the stormtroopers) herd Luke towards Vader's trap, deliberately missing believably so that he is unharmed for the Emperor. There is no implied badasser in his standing up to Vader - he does, and Vader negotiates with him. This is a contrast to, for example, Lando, who Vader simply walks over like he doesn't even exist, changing the deal Lando had as Vader sees fit. This is Vader directly letting the audience know he respects Fett more than any other villain we have seen such far, barring the Emperor.

That is what implied means? "Suggested but not directly expressed." No one directly saying "Oh that's Fett, I watched him kill an entire fleet of rebels with his pinky." And we don't get to see him be awesome in a fight. But Vader treats him with respect regardless. That is implied badassery. By the way everyone interacts with him, we think he's badass. Ergo, implied.

[Sapphire Guard]

Fett knows about the 'latch onto target to hide from scanners' trick. That's about all he does. Is he missing on purpose or just missing? We don't really know. Ruthless? Efficient? He doesn't demonstrate either of those things.

He's singled out by Vader, not for his skills, but for a mistake. "No disintegrations" means he must have disintegrated someone he was supposed to bring in alive, a major screw up for a bounty hunter. He lets the empire do the work of capturing his target, and then gets paid twice. So, he's good at getting paid, which is an underappreciated skill, but all he has to do once Han is in carbonite is transport a solid block in his ship, which doesn't take skill.

Vader pays him, but has that anything to do with Boba himself, or just pragmatism because otherwise the next time he needs a bounty brought in no one will show up.

Unique look isn't true any more, because now every Mandalorian wears similar gear.

Maul's lack of lines is characterisation in itself. He wants to fight, not talk.

[hungrycrow]

He's singled out by Vader, not for his skills, but for a mistake. "No disintegrations" means he must have disintegrated someone he was supposed to bring in alive, a major screw up for a bounty hunter. He lets the empire do the work of capturing his target, and then gets paid twice. So, he's good at getting paid, which is an underappreciated skill, but all he has to do once Han is in carbonite is transport a solid block in his ship, which doesn't take skill.

Given that Fett says 'as you wish', i took that as meaning that he chose to disintegrate people, not that he was incompetent.

[dancrilis]

This is Vader directly letting the audience know he respects Fett more than any other villain we have seen such far, barring the Emperor.

I have to disagree on this point - Vader showed at least as much respect to Tarkin (and I would argue more).

[Vinyadan]

I think Maul add one more special thing: he was the first time we saw a villain that wasn't old or handicapped. Yes, Vader is strong and scary, but also very heavy and can't breath. The Emperor can shoot lightning from his hands, but he is old and dry.

And then, we see this tiger Sith who takes on the Jedi two at a time, wants to run people over with a bike, doesn't care to speak, and looks like a predator even when he has to stop pursuit (that shoot as the bird, Padme's ship, flies away). Plus, he stalks his prey and can do recon on his own.

Maul has everything. And he's perfect for a time when the Sith still have to act on their own, because they have no political power.

[Devonix]

I have to disagree on this point - Vader showed at least as much respect to Tarkin (and I would argue more).

Yeah I really think that's putting the weight of things that came after onto something that didn't exist. Boba Fett was just some random bounty hunter that out of all of them was lucky enough to find Han.

Vader didn't see Boba fett as more or less skilled than any of the other bounty hunters. Hell the line in the way it was read didn't even seem to be singling out Fett at all. he was addressing all of them in the scene and it just so happened when he got to that part of the speech he was standing in front of Fett. It's the same way if you're addressing troops. and you want all of them to do something, but you point out one that's near you as an example to direct it to.

Vader and Fett didn't have this big long standing relationship. Fett was just some guy. It's only because fans liked him that he later became something. But in the film, in the story he's a nobody. Starwars fans, and scifi fans in general have the problem of assigning our own personal opinions and likes onto something that we believe it overides the text of the film.

[Sapphire Guard]

Given that Fett says 'as you wish', i took that as meaning that he chose to disintegrate people, not that he was incompetent.

If that was the case, wouldn't 'I want them alive' be enough? That should be bread and butter for any good bounty hunter, instead he has to emphasize 'Alive means not disintegrated, you idiot'.

[Dienekes]

Honestly, I’m pretty sure the writer just wanted to say disintegration because it sounds cool and future-y, and Vader says it to Fett because then we get to establish who Fett is in the line up as someone to pay attention to as he will be important later.

[Vinyadan]

Honestly, I’m pretty sure the writer just wanted to say disintegration because it sounds cool and future-y, and Vader says it to Fett because then we get to establish who Fett is in the line up as someone to pay attention to as he will be important later.

And that he is a dangerous dude who disintegrated someone. So when he follows them, there's the menace of capture or, if needed, disintegration hanging over their heads.

[Dire_Flumph]

Given that Fett says 'as you wish', i took that as meaning that he chose to disintegrate people, not that he was incompetent.

Eventually, the day came when Vader was amazed to discover that when Boba was saying "As you wish", what he really meant was "I love you".

Sorry, I'll see myself out....

[Peelee]

I have to disagree on this point - Vader showed at least as much respect to Tarkin (and I would argue more).

I'll cop to that.

Yeah I really think that's putting the weight of things that came after onto something that didn't exist. Boba Fett was just some random bounty hunter that out of all of them was lucky enough to find Han.

Lucky? He disguised his ship among the garbage that was being dumped long enough for the Falcon to believe it had evaded detection. Setting a perfect trap and it springing successfully isn't getting lucky, it's knowing exactly what you're doing. And it happens immediately; the intention is clearly to show that Fett's skills are above the other hunters as well as the Imperials', including the actual space wizard.

Vader and Fett didn't have this big long standing relationship. Fett was just some guy. It's only because fans liked him that he later became something. But in the film, in the story he's a nobody. Starwars fans, and scifi fans in general have the problem of assigning our own personal opinions and likes onto something that we believe it overides the text of the film.

He successfully negotiates with Vader in a rather brusque manner. We have seen how Vader deals with negotiations with "nobodies, just some guy" with Calrissian - he steamrolls them. We see how he deals with people he views as incompetents - he straight up murders them, even if they are admirals in the Imperial Fleet. Fett is able to accomplish what very few others have - go toe to toe with Vader and come out with exactly what he wants. Fans like him because the text of the movie gives fans obvious reason to like him.

Eventually, the day came when Vader was amazed to discover that when Boba was saying "As you wish", what he really meant was "I love you"

That's a longstanding joke serious theory.

[Devonix]

I'll cop to that.

Lucky? He disguised his ship among the garbage that was being dumped long enough for the Falcon to believe it had evaded detection. Setting a perfect trap and it springing successfully isn't getting lucky, it's knowing exactly what you're doing. And it happens immediately; the intention is clearly to show that Fett's skills are above the other hunters as well as the Imperials', including the actual space wizard.




That's a longstanding joke serious theory.

Trap what trap? He found out where they were going and called his employer so that he could get paid. He never set any trap, Vader did.

[dancrilis]

Trap what trap? He found out where they were going and called his employer so that he could get paid. He never set any trap, Vader did.

In fairness Vader was the trap that Fett set.

Vader hired a number of bounty hunters - one of them figured out the bounties likely move, tracked them, and informed the employer where they were.
All of this was presumedly the terms of the contract.

As such Boba Fett gets recognition as a great bounty hunter (literally the only one who we know succeeded at the job), and while Vader not killing him when he outlived his immediate usefulness tells us more about Vader then Fett it does tell us that Fett can negotiate with the Dark Lord and not only walk away but be offered guarantees and be treated politely.

I was never really a fan of Boba Fett (nothing against him I just saw him as a bit character) - but Peelee is not wrong that within the context of The Empire Strikes Back he does his job competently and well without being annoying about it while offering something new to the series - so it is not a surprise that he did get a fandom.

[Peelee]

Trap what trap? He found out where they were going and called his employer so that he could get paid. He never set any trap, Vader did.

Hiding his ship in the garbage in order to find the Falcon.

[Rodin]

I was never really a fan of Boba Fett (nothing against him I just saw him as a bit character) - but Peelee is not wrong that within the context of The Empire Strikes Back he does his job competently and well without being annoying about it while offering something new to the series - so it is not a surprise that he did get a fandom.

That's still a really thin justification to hang an entire fandom on. In the OT he has all of 4 lines, totaling less than 30 words. He has no backstory. No motivation other than "I'm a bounty hunter". He has no connection to any of the protagonists, no big rivalry or history to explore. He doesn't have any badass fight scenes, or any pithy one-liners. His one fight scene is less than impressive. The only accomplishment you can give him is being clever enough to hang out in the garbage.

And from this he got a significant part of one of the movies dedicated to his backstory, an entire race named after him, countless EU stories, his own cartoon in the Holiday Special...etc. etc.

There are very few (if any) popular characters with a more inexplicable origin than Fett. It's like if Figwit from the LOTR movies got his own TV series.

[Peelee]

That's still a really thin justification to hang an entire fandom on. In the OT he has all of 4 lines, totaling less than 30 words. He has no backstory. No motivation other than "I'm a bounty hunter". He has no connection to any of the protagonists, no big rivalry or history to explore. He doesn't have any badass fight scenes, or any pithy one-liners. His one fight scene is less than impressive. The only accomplishment you can give him is being clever enough to hang out in the garbage.

The only accomplishment you can give him is outsmarting the entire Empire, including a space wizard, immediately, and also standing up to said space wizard successfully when every other person in that movie died the second the inconvenienced him in the slightest (with the only exception of Calrissian, who was steamrolled and had all power taken away from him). In ESB, Fett is a guy who gets things done. When the Empire, with star destroyers and Super star destroyers at its disposal, headed by a space wizard, cannot do the job, they can call in Fett and he'll get it done. That is one hell of a statement for the movie to make, and it flings itself full into making it.

ESB made Fett's fandom, and RotJ didn't drop the ball enough to kill it. The lack of backstory worked in his favor, since imagination would always be better than the real thing.

[Vinyadan]

That's still a really thin justification to hang an entire fandom on. In the OT he has all of 4 lines, totaling less than 30 words. He has no backstory. No motivation other than "I'm a bounty hunter". He has no connection to any of the protagonists, no big rivalry or history to explore. He doesn't have any badass fight scenes, or any pithy one-liners. His one fight scene is less than impressive. The only accomplishment you can give him is being clever enough to hang out in the garbage.

And from this he got a significant part of one of the movies dedicated to his backstory, an entire race named after him, countless EU stories, his own cartoon in the Holiday Special...etc. etc.

There are very few (if any) popular characters with a more inexplicable origin than Fett. It's like if Figwit from the LOTR movies got his own TV series.

Actually, the cartoon came out before 5, and it was his first appearance overall. But Boba had a very cool design, which is probably why he is famous, and was immediately toyfied.

Also, he looked like a baby Vader, what about being a shorter, armoured guy, murderous but with a less menacing colour, taking orders, being berated about his past mistakes, and finally having Vader make body contact with him in a non-threatening way and also having Vader listen to his complains. Seriously, Boba was the son Vader never had (because Luke was Anakin's).

[Peelee]

That's still a really thin justification to hang an entire fandom on. In the OT he has all of 4 lines, totaling less than 30 words. He has no backstory. No motivation other than "I'm a bounty hunter". He has no connection to any of the protagonists, no big rivalry or history to explore. He doesn't have any badass fight scenes, or any pithy one-liners. His one fight scene is less than impressive. The only accomplishment you can give him is being clever enough to hang out in the garbage.

And from this he got a significant part of one of the movies dedicated to his backstory, an entire race named after him, countless EU stories, his own cartoon in the Holiday Special...etc. etc.

There are very few (if any) popular characters with a more inexplicable origin than Fett. It's like if Figwit from the LOTR movies got his own TV series.

Actually, the cartoon came out before 5, and it was his first appearance overall.

If we're going to be picking some nits, then he also did not have an entire race named after him; There are no Fettians, of Bobites. Fett was labelled as a Mandalorian, and was wearing Mandalorian armor, but amusingly enough he got removed from the Mandalorians some time ago.

[GloatingSwine]

Also, Mandalorians aren't a race. They're a creed.

[Fyraltari]

I'm not sure Fett really "stood up to Vader", Vader simply didn't care for what Fett wanted, it really doesn't look like Fett would have insisted if vader had said no. Also Vader is much less flippant in ESB than the fandom would led you to believe, he only kills his underling when they fail him (which Fett hasn't done) and even then not always as Piett could attest.

Also, Mandalorians aren't a race. They're a creed.

I'd say they are an ethno-cultural group like the Jews in real life.

[GloatingSwine]

I'd say they are an ethno-cultural group like the Jews in real life.

{Scrubbed}

When you become a Mandalorian, you are a Mandalorian in all ways that exist, and you can't be born a Mandalorian, only follow their creed. You can stop being a Mandalorian if you stop following the creed as well.

The phrase "it's not a race, it's a creed" is even explicitly said in The Mandalorian. And is almost certainly being set up as a specific mirror to the Jedi later on (that phrase will be repeated about them).

[Peelee]

The Mod on the Silver Mountain: Closed for review.

[truemane]

Metamagic Mod: thread re-opened.

[Peelee]

{Scrubbed}

When you become a Mandalorian, you are a Mandalorian in all ways that exist, and you can't be born a Mandalorian, only follow their creed. You can stop being a Mandalorian if you stop following the creed as well.

The phrase "it's not a race, it's a creed" is even explicitly said in The Mandalorian. And is almost certainly being set up as a specific mirror to the Jedi later on (that phrase will be repeated about them).

Mandalorians are a cultural race, effectively. In the EU/Legends, to be a Mandalorian, you just had to want to be a Mandalorian and live in the Mandalorian way. They were all warriors, regardless of whatever else they were. There were Mandalorian farmers, Mandalorian chefs, Mandalorian teachers, etc. But in a heartbeat, if needed, the Mandalorian farmer was also a Mandalorian warrior, the Mandalorian chef was also a Mandalorian warrior, the Mandalorian teacher was also a Mandalorian warrior. When Mandalore called, the people listened. Most were human, but there was no species requirement. It looks as if canon is sticking with that, but I can't say for certain yet - too small a sample size so far, and I'm assuming the same until they portray them differently.

So you can absolutely be born a Mandalorian, you can simply just choose to leave the Mandalorians if you wish. The Mandalorian also says if you take your helmet off, you can never put it back on, so I think it's pretty clear they are a specific sect with their own sort of rules. Orthodox Mandalorians, for lack of a better term (I'm not about to call them Death Watch just yet, and not just because I dislike how the Mandalorians were portrayed in TCW, and the silly name "Death Watch").

[Keltest]

Mandalorians are a cultural race, effectively. In the EU/Legends, to be a Mandalorian, you just had to want to be a Mandalorian and live in the Mandalorian way. They were all warriors, regardless of whatever else they were. There were Mandalorian farmers, Mandalorian chefs, Mandalorian teachers, etc. But in a heartbeat, if needed, the Mandalorian farmer was also a Mandalorian warrior, the Mandalorian chef was also a Mandalorian warrior, the Mandalorian teacher was also a Mandalorian warrior. When Mandalore called, the people listened. Most were human, but there was no species requirement. It looks as if canon is sticking with that, but I can't say for certain yet - too small a sample size so far, and I'm assuming the same until they portray them differently.

So you can absolutely be born a Mandalorian, you can simply just choose to leave the Mandalorians if you wish. The Mandalorian also says if you take your helmet off, you can never put it back on, so I think it's pretty clear they are a specific sect with their own sort of rules. Orthodox Mandalorians, for lack of a better term (I'm not about to call them Death Watch just yet, and not just because I dislike how the Mandalorians were portrayed in TCW, and the silly name "Death Watch").

My take about the helmet was less a literal issue with never being able to show his face, ever, although there is a degree of that, and more about placing the faceless warrior identity above his own personal one. He is a Mandalorian first, and Din Djarrin second, and they adopted this as a result of the imperial persecution. If you take your helmet off for somebody, or have it removed, then you are incapable of acting as a Mandalorian Warrior, either through lack of competence or lack of dedication.

[Vinyadan]

How do they eat? Are they ninjas? Was Jango an apostate? Or is it just metaphor?