OSR Hybrid

[Lord Torath]

Hmm.. I don't think I'd want players re-rolling every attribute, and definitely not very often.

If we go with the 3.0+ idea, an ASI every 4 levels, only +1 to one attribute, 18 cap. It could take 2 ASI's to get an extra bonus, but at least it's something. B/X and BECMI had nothing that way.

Keep the ideas coming!

Just to clarify what Mark was saying, your players aren't re-rolling their attributes every X levels, they're rolling against their attributes. At increase time, you roll 3d6 and compare it to your current strength score. If you roll higher, your strength score increases by one point. If you roll equal to or lower, your strength stays at its current level unless you roll a 3 (three 'one's), in which case your strength score drops by one point. You then 3d6 for each of your other attributes and follow the same procedure.

[paladinn]

Just to clarify what Mark was saying, your players aren't re-rolling their attributes every X levels, they're rolling against their attributes. At increase time, you roll 3d6 and compare it to your current strength score. If you roll higher, your strength score increases by one point. If you roll equal to or lower, your strength stays at its current level unless you roll a 3 (three 'one's), in which case your strength score drops by one point. You then 3d6 for each of your other attributes and follow the same procedure.

Even simpler.. Pick a stat and add one point. Your choice. 18 lifetime cap.

[paladinn]

Even simpler.. Pick a stat and add one point. Your choice. 18 lifetime cap.

Or 19 for elven DeX or dwarven Con :)

[paladinn]

Hello all,

Sorry it's been a while, but life has a way of intruding on creativity.

So, I've mentioned my wish to design an OSR hybrid game. I'm starting with an OSR chassis: d4, d6, d8 hit dice, "normal" max of 18 stats and +3 bonus, etc. Pretty much what we see in B/X, BECMI and LL.

I've also mentioned porting the 5e magic system pretty much as-is; i.e. a spell-slot or spell point system. At this point, I'm leaning toward the spell-slot system since it's somewhat familiar.

And I've considered using a single-save system ala Swords & Wizardry. I like the simplicity, but I'm now thinking to use something similar to the 5e proficiency system. With a twist.

In 5e, characters get a "proficiency bonus" that is applied to attack roles with proficient weapons, saves related to proficient stats, and proficient skill checks. It's a really simple, straightforward system. 5e gives a +2 at level 1, +3 at level 5, +4 at level 9, +5 at level 13 and +6 at level 17. However, I have a few issues with it. I think it may be a tad OP for an OSR game, especially for lower levels. It doesn't really promote much specialization. And if you're Not proficient, you suck at the given skill, stat or weapon. Forever.

What I propose is a variant of this concept, informed by Mr. Chris Perkins' amazing work in "AD&D3". I would like to give a "common" bonus, a "skilled" bonus, an "expert" bonus, and a "master" bonus. If you're not proficient with a skill, weapon or save, you get +0 at level 1, +1 at level 5, +2 at level 9, +3 at level 13, +4 at level 17. If you have "skilled" proficiency, all the bonuses go up by +1; "expert" goes up another +1; and "master" goes up +1 more. So a 20th level character with Master proficiency gets a max +7; not too much considering the level, and likely not OP. At certain levels, a player would have the option to increase the proficiency level in One skill, save or weapon, much as s/he would get an ASI (I would say +1) every few levels.

Any thoughts?

[paladinn]

Further pondering.. Expert and Master level proficiency is limited to "baseline" Rogues/Thieves and Fighters. Spellcasters have other demands on their time and energy:)

As for a name for tha game.. How about "Heroes & Horrors"?

[paladinn]

So, while considering the ASI/"Feats" model from 5e, I'm thinking 5e almost has it right. I don't think I want the "mega-feats" in 5e; but I'm thinking that every 4 levels I could either allow

a. a +1 to any stat
b. a +1 skill increase to any two skills
c. a +1 to any one weapon skill

If I do this right, it could solve and/or streamline a number of issues:
a. the availability of "skills" to anyone while maintaining the supremacy of Rogues/Thieves when it comes to skills
b. the ability to learn a weapon that is not on your class' list, while never allowing a non-fighter to become as "good" as a mainline fighter
c. allowing fighters and thieves a means of advancement without wonky bolt-on mechanics and new "feats" every level
d. giving thieves a means of more custom advancement ala 2e

All characters start with Common proficiency in most everything. Fighters (including future paladins and rangers) start with Basic proficiency in all weapons and their set of skills. I would allow them to choose One weapon with which to have Expert proficiency, kind of like the "fighting style" but more extensible. Rogues would start with Basic proficiency in their set of weapons and skills, and would be able to select two of their skills with which to have Expert proficiency.

Every 4th level, all characters can pick an advancement option as mentioned above. No character can have a proficiency of more that +3 (Master level). For weapons and most "thief" skills, only base fighters and thieves can have Expert or Master proficiency.

Elves start with Basic proficiency with swords and bows, and dwarves with axes, because of their heritage. Wizards start with Common proficiency with most everything expect maybe daggers and staves. If Gandalf wants to swing a sword, he can spend an ASI/advancement to get Basic proficiency.

I think this opens up a lot of possibilities without adding too much to the complexity of a (hopefully still) OSR-level game.

[paladinn]

Just to recap, I'm thinking to co-opt the 5e idea of an "advancement" every 4 levels or so. A player would be able to choose from one of several options:

1. a +1 increase to one stat
2. a +1 increase to one proficient weapon (Basic -> Expert -> Master skill)
3. Basic proficiency in one Not proficient weapon (Basic skill)
4. The same proficiency/increase for two skills

While I don't want to open the door to the feat-bloat, but I would like to include things like 2-weapon fighting and blind fighting as weapon skills. I would also like to include the BECMI "combat options" like Smash and Disarm, as well as Cleave. Maybe some archery skills. Given that characters would only get 4-5 ASI's (maybe 1-2 more for core fighters), I don't think it could get out of hand.

Thoughts?

[LibraryOgre]

Any further news on this? Been a couple weeks...

[paladinn]

Any further news on this? Been a couple weeks...

Si Senor.. Got a good take on a spell system, a proficiency/skill system, fighter progression, a viable paladin subclass and working on the ranger (if there is one).

Will compile here asap! But I know I can't post multiple times so it might be long.. lol

[LibraryOgre]

Si Senor.. Got a good take on a spell system, a proficiency/skill system, fighter progression, a viable paladin subclass and working on the ranger (if there is one).

Will compile here asap! But I know I can't post multiple times so it might be long.. lol

You can always edit the final post, though that doesn't bump things up.

[DrMartin]

how are you handling weapon proficiency?

one of the charm of old school d&d for me is that the fighter uses what he finds - no "weapon focus" or similar things that make you a bit unhappy about finding a cool magical claymore instead of the broadsword you are specialized in.

If you want to keep some sort of tweaking, maybe very broad groups like melee and ranged, or slightly less broad group like melee, brawl, ranged and thrown, could be an option?

[paladinn]

how are you handling weapon proficiency?

one of the charm of old school d&d for me is that the fighter uses what he finds - no "weapon focus" or similar things that make you a bit unhappy about finding a cool magical claymore instead of the broadsword you are specialized in.

If you want to keep some sort of tweaking, maybe very broad groups like melee and ranged, or slightly less broad group like melee, brawl, ranged and thrown, could be an option?

Here's how I envision proficiencies in general. It's borrowed and heavily modified from 5e:

All characters get a "common" proficiency in just about everything: non-proficient saves, skills, weapons, etc. The "bonuses" are +0 for levels 1-5, +1 levels 6-10, +2 levels 11-15, +3 levels 16 and up. Each class gets certain "Basic" weapon, skill and save proficiencies, which gets a +1 to each of the tiers. Rogues and fighters can get "Expert" level proficiencies, which adds a further +1 at each tier. Rogues can get a "Master" level proficiency in skills, and fighters can get the same with weapons, for an additional +1 at each tier.

Every 4 levels, a character gets either a +1 to one stat, a +1 rank in one weapon/combat skill, or a +1 in two non-weapon skills. Rogues/thieves start with expert level skill with certain skills; fighter-types start with expert level skill with one weapon. This might end up being a "fighting style" ala 5e.

A 4th level fighter with a longsword and 18 Str would get a +3 bonus for Str, +1 Basic proficiency and another +1 for expertise. Great, but not overwhelming, I think.