Rainbow Servant: Fixed?

[Nifft]

This is not a general Prestige Class Debate Thread.

neither is it a "how do you think Rainbow Servant stands compared to Incantatrix".

Or any other of Optimization Questions.

So please lets get back to the actual Topic of "Making a Better Rainbow Servant Class"/"Writing an Errata that makes the CLass less controversal but still good", ok?

You know, the Questions I as the OP actually asked. ^^

Thanks.

Fair enough, it's not like we're going to change his mind anyway.


So, back to constructive content: 9/10 casting, lose a level at entry.

1st level: Pick a Domain (Air, Good, or Law); gain the Domain power. Wizards and prepared casters get Domain spell slots; Sorcerers and fixed-list casters add the Domain spells to their known spells, level-limited as usual.

2nd level: Wizards can prepare 1st level Cleric spells in their regular spell slots; Sorcerers and fixed-list casters can choose a 1st level Cleric spell when meditating for spell-slots, and treat that 1st level spell as if it were known until they next meditate.

3rd level: Wiz prepare 2nd level Cleric spells; or Sorc also pick a 2nd level spell.

4th level: Pick another Domain (Air, Good, or Law); at-will Feather Fall.

5th level: Wiz prepare 3rd level Cleric spells; or Sorc also pick a 3rd level spell.

6th level: Wiz prepare 4th level Cleric spells; or Sorc also pick a 4th level spell.

7th level: Pick the remaining Domain (Air, Good, or Law); at-will Swift action to grow or hide wings (fly 60 ft., Good).

8th level: Wiz prepares 5th level Cleric spells; or Sorc also pick a 5th level spell.

9th level: Wiz prepares 6th level Cleric spells; or Sorc also pick a 6th level spell.

10th level: Wiz prepares 7th level Cleric spells; or Sorc also pick a 7th level spell. Gain Telepathy 90 ft.

[Jack_Simth]

How would folks feel about lost slots, rather than lost casting progression, ala Archmage? Set the requirements so any full Arcane caster can get in after 5th (2nd level spells, kn(arcana) 8 ranks), make it full casting, but then have it cost a spell slot to acess the features. So you might get the first domain at 1st (character level 6), which costs a 3rd level spell slot... but you get all the domain spells added to your spells known (with a clause about having the appropriate slots). As the PrC progresses, it costs more spell slots, and gives more benefits.

[AvatarVecna]

This is not a general Prestige Class Debate Thread.

neither is it a "how do you think Rainbow Servant stands compared to Incantatrix".

Or any other of Optimization Questions.

So please lets get back to the actual Topic of "Making a Better Rainbow Servant Class"/"Writing an Errata that makes the CLass less controversal but still good", ok?

You know, the Questions I as the OP actually asked. ^^

Thanks.

It's kinda difficult to make any argument of "here's why Rainbow Servant should change from X to Y" without that inevitably getting into a discussion of why X is a bad way to balance PrCs, and Y is a better way to balance PrCs.

Spoiler

Show

If the goal is "Wizard X/Rainbow Servant Y should be on par with Wizard X+Y". One could make a slight argument that, if the PrC has prereqs a wizard wouldn't normally want to take, the opportunity cost of spending feats/skills poorly early on is the exchange you make for having full casting + some extra goodies. Those extra goodies aren't replacing casting, they're replacing a couple feats, a full-rank skill or two, and maybe a single wizard bonus feat you're not getting cuz you PrC'd out. But from that perspective...how good can the PrC's extra goodies be allowed to get?

But then, this is peanuts compared to the real problem of balancing classes like this. Suppose we do balance the PrC's extra goodies against lost spell progression, how much is lost spell progression worth? If we're operating on the assumption that Fighter and Wizard are equally viable, then +1 spellcasting progression is equivalent to +1 BAB, +1/2 Fort, and the difference between a d4 and a d10 of HP.

Spoiler: A balanced Wizard PrC, from a certain point of view

Show

d4 HD

Skills as wizard

Lvl	BAB	Fort	Ref	Will	Features	Spellcasting Progression
1	+0	+0	+0	+2		+1 effective wizard
2	+1	+0	+0	+3		+1 effective wizard
3	+2	+1	+1	+3	Toughness	-
4	+3	+1	+1	+4		+1 effective wizard
5	+3	+1	+1	+4	Wizard Bonus Feat	+1 effective wizard
6	+4	+2	+2	+5		+1 effective wizard
7	+5	+2	+2	+5	Toughness, +1 Fortitude	-
8	+6	+2	+2	+6		+1 effective wizard
9	+6	+3	+3	+6		+1 effective wizard
10	+7	+3	+3	+7		+1 effective wizard

The above mock-PrC is super-comparable to a Wizard with a Fighter dip, but I'm not sure many people would take this in place of straight wizard. Particularly since Eldritch Knight (a d6 HD, good Fort, full BAB, 9/10 casting class) does the same thing but better. And most people still wouldn't take Eldritch Knight, because +5 BAB, +10 HP, +4 fort, and a fighter bonus feat are competing with...casting.

How much a spell level is worth varies wildly. Sure, the slots don't change too much, but even with just core wizard, the difference between Wizard 6 and Wizard 7 could be "the ability to cast Remove Curse, Minor Creation, Wall Of Ice, and Mass Reduce Person", or it could be "the ability to cast Dimension Door, Scrying, Animate Dead, and Polymorph". How much is that particular level of wizard casting worth? It's hard to say.

At the same time, "casting is hard to balance because how good it is can vary so wildly" wow scalding hot take there AV. And it's not the fault of the PrC that it's balanced around assuming any one particular charop level. A potential solution to that would be to balance the spellcasting against some kind of variable choice like the domain selection I mentioned as my fix...but then, that makes it easy for somebody to choose the good spells and the good domains and still end up even further ahead of their friends than if the PrC had been fixed to a particular set of benefits for them both.

(PF doesn't have this problem nearly as bad, because it just...gave casters actual class features. Yes, spellcasting is a real class feature, but it's one that's hard to balance. It's much easier to say "these PrC abilities are equivalent to a couple feats and a handful of spells known" than "these PrC abilities are equivalent to a level's worth of spellcasting progression". And most casting PrCs still have that issue.)

(But then again, PF is built around the assumption that "Wizard 20" is the default answer, and taking a PrC is choosing to be specialize in being worse for fluff reasons. Which is a viable way to build PrCs.)

If we're willing to abandon being equivalent to base classes (certainly Eldritch Knight is better than a Fighter/Wizard multiclass should be), then that'd need to be a wider standard. SWSE (a d20 system for Star Wars) operates on an assumption like this - that going full Base Class without PrCing out is viable and isn't necessarily shooting yourself in the foot, but at the same time the game is built around the assumption that you will find a PrC you like and specialize in it - assumes that choosing to remain a generalist and journeyman is a decision you're making for fluff reasons with the full understanding that you're worse. Not bad...but worse.

None of these approaches are bad. You can build a PrC on the assumption that it's supposed to be worse, or better, or equivalent to the base class. But it's difficult to have a discussion about how we should change an existing PrC without discussing which of those three things we want to aim for.

[Esprit15]

Fair enough, it's not like we're going to change his mind anyway.


So, back to constructive content: 9/10 casting, lose a level at entry.

1st level: Pick a Domain (Air, Good, or Law); gain the Domain power. Wizards and prepared casters get Domain spell slots; Sorcerers and fixed-list casters add the Domain spells to their known spells, level-limited as usual.

2nd level: Wizards can prepare 1st level Cleric spells in their regular spell slots; Sorcerers and fixed-list casters can choose a 1st level Cleric spell when meditating for spell-slots, and treat that 1st level spell as if it were known until they next meditate.

3rd level: Wiz prepare 2nd level Cleric spells; or Sorc also pick a 2nd level spell.

4th level: Pick another Domain (Air, Good, or Law); at-will Feather Fall.

5th level: Wiz prepare 3rd level Cleric spells; or Sorc also pick a 3rd level spell.

6th level: Wiz prepare 4th level Cleric spells; or Sorc also pick a 4th level spell.

7th level: Pick the remaining Domain (Air, Good, or Law); at-will Swift action to grow or hide wings (fly 60 ft., Good).

8th level: Wiz prepares 5th level Cleric spells; or Sorc also pick a 5th level spell.

9th level: Wiz prepares 6th level Cleric spells; or Sorc also pick a 6th level spell.

10th level: Wiz prepares 7th level Cleric spells; or Sorc also pick a 7th level spell. Gain Telepathy 90 ft.

I mostly like this. That you never end up stepping on the cleric's toes at high levels is good, and also makes it still not necessarily as good as a theurge. I do wonder why Telepathy is made a capstone. Just because Coatls get it?

[InvisibleBison]

How would folks feel about lost slots, rather than lost casting progression, ala Archmage? Set the requirements so any full Arcane caster can get in after 5th (2nd level spells, kn(arcana) 8 ranks), make it full casting, but then have it cost a spell slot to acess the features. So you might get the first domain at 1st (character level 6), which costs a 3rd level spell slot... but you get all the domain spells added to your spells known (with a clause about having the appropriate slots). As the PrC progresses, it costs more spell slots, and gives more benefits.

I think this is a better idea than lost casting progression, because it keeps the cost the same regardless of when you enter the prestige class. A lost level of spellcasting is worth different things to a 5th level wizard and a 10th level wizard, whereas a 3rd level spell slot is always a 3rd level spell slot.

[Nifft]

I mostly like this. That you never end up stepping on the cleric's toes at high levels is good, and also makes it still not necessarily as good as a theurge. I do wonder why Telepathy is made a capstone. Just because Coatls get it?

Yeah, and that's why the range isn't the standard 100 ft., and the capstone is really the level 7 spell access... the telepathy is basically a ribbon. It's the feature I'd trade out first if anyone comes up with something better.

7th level spells also sat well with a Sorc 5 / RS 10 hitting level 14 spellcaster and just getting access to that level of spells in time for the class feature to boost it.

I liked capping it off at 7th level as a hat-tip to early-edition Clerics ending their list at that level.

In contrast to a Theurge, you get fewer slots per day, but your highest-level slots aren't much behind what a single-class caster could throw around. You never get Miracle, so you can't do Shadowcraft Mage shenanigans through this PrC, but there are plenty of other shenanigan-enablers if your DM is friendly to them.

[Endarire]

I didn't like how Archmage loses spell slots. Remember, people assume taking PrCs is just a matter of which "pure benefit track" you want. Losing any casting is a big deterrent! 3.5's Archmage was made with at a conservative level of power.

Then again, OP, what say you?

[GrayDeath]

I think gaining additional Cleric Spells that you choose at Meditation and the actual Domain Spells as Nifft suggested above works very well with the suggested Theme, and losing 1 Level of SPellcasting for a semitheurge sounds fully OK to me.

I never liked the Archmage much, so I ahvent thought about losing slots as alternative.....hmmmm.

Stopping out at Level 7 whenever yout ake the class seems a bit off though, how about you calculate your max Level available by using your Rainbow Servant LEvels +other CLass levels -3 for amximum Claric Spell elvel? Also avoids stepping on the Cleris toes, but is more in line with regular Progression than static Spell levels.


And aside from the above: Any changes necessary/good ideas on the Chassis, proficiencies etc?

[Endarire]

What happens if someone takes Practiced Spellcaster with Rainbow Servant and class level -3?

If you're fully committed to stopping Cleric casting at level 7 spells, grant them like a 3/4 BAB.

[Nifft]

What happens if someone takes Practiced Spellcaster with Rainbow Servant and class level -3?

That feat raises caster level, it doesn't replace spellcasting levels.

If you're fully committed to stopping Cleric casting at level 7 spells, grant them like a 3/4 BAB.

Meh, they also get level 9 Wizard spells.

Just cast Transformation or Divine Power on yourself if for some strange reason you care about BAB.

[Chronos]

Who says that wizards don't have class features? They have thousands of them. And so to balance giving them other abilities, we take away some of those.

When given the choice between going base class 20 and taking a prestige class, you should always be able to give some argument for staying in the base class. If there's any prestige class for which that's not true, that's a brokenly overpowered prestige class, that needs to be fixed. Which, as it stands right now, applies to the vast majority of full-casting prestige classes. They all need to be fixed.

Mind you, losing a level of progression isn't the only way to do that. You could take a page from Incantatrix, for instance, and bar a school (or another one, if you're already a specialist). Incantatrix is still overpowered even with that, but it could be a reasonable balance factor for some.

But you have to take away something.

[Endarire]

Since full casting PrCs with spiffy class features are so prevalent, a major opportunity cost for PrCs is determining which ones to take and when.

[Thunder999]

While sticking to a base class being equally viable with prestige classes is a nice idea, it's blatantly not the case in 3.5, the fact is you generally ditch your class as soon as you can qualify for oneof the many full casting progression PrCs because many base classes have no class features. Sorcerer's literally have none and most other classes aren't a lot better.

Unless you plan to improve the base classes and rework every single full progression PrC then you just have to accept that the default balance point is a full progression PrC and that there's an opportunity cost associated with not taking one.