OOTS #1203 - The Discussion Thread

[Peelee]

This is 3.5, there are probably a few ridiculous and badly thought out examples of epic uses of the track feat. Something like "Track the path of a migratory butterfly through a continent inhabited exclusively by flying insects: DC105".

I had a butterfly garden at home, does that get me a +1 on the check?

[Wizard_Lizard]

I mean hands down. the comic was hilarious, but thats nothing new. Elan is great. Also I love Belkar's amazing deduction.

[Fyraltari]

I had a butterfly garden at home, does that get me a +1 on the check?

Sure, it's the butterfly effect.

[Jasdoif]

I had a butterfly garden at home, does that get me a +1 on the check?

Sure, it's the butterfly effect.

It raises the DC by 2, though; the butterfly effect relies on rounding errors.

It works best when the higher DC can be advantageous, like Craft checks (where progress made is the product of both the check result and the DC); which is why butterfly-themed garden decorations are so popular (or at least ubiquitous).

[bunsen_h]

Assuming you consider the minimally-ported-from-3.0-and-it-shows epic section of the SRD as "3.5", yes; identifying the race/kind of creature by tracks is DC 60.

I must be misunderstanding something. Identifying the normal animal inhabitants of one's own environment by their tracks in mud / snow / soft earth is a mundane skill. It would obviously be harder on terrain that takes less of an impression, and less-typical animals would take more knowledge. Identifying track types when you literally have track-making samples to work with -- boots, slippers, halfling feet -- would make it easier. Why is this rated so high?

EDIT:

A necklace of fire beads that you can toss into melee to produce fireballs? Gotta love those.

I think that that's what I was thinking of, yes. Thank you.

[Jasdoif]

I must be misunderstanding something.

Most of the epic section elicits that kind of reaction, honestly. Seriously, an epic feat allows you to nonmagically follow tracks in the air with a DC 120 check....

Identifying the normal animal inhabitants of one's own environment by their tracks in mud / snow / soft earth is a mundane skill. It would obviously be harder on terrain that takes less of an impression, and less-typical animals would take more knowledge. Identifying track types when you literally have track-making samples to work with -- boots, slippers, halfling feet -- would make it easier. Why is this rated so high?

I like to imagine the designers having a conversation like this:

: "Hey, what's the tracking DC to distinguish between a human wearing boots and a half-elf wearing the same boots?"
: "What, like a three-legged sack race?"
: "No, like a half-elf assassinated a human to impersonate his identity."
: "Pfft, I dunno; let's say....We have 40 as the "nearly impossible" skill DC for ridiculous attempts, right? Let's bump it up a take-20, and call it DC 60 to distinguish creatures of the same type by tracks."
: "Really? That high?"
: "Sure. You can write a cool round number; and any sane player will use magic. Besides, a DM should know better than to let a tracking DC derail their adventure anyway, so it hardly matters."
: "Oh, okay."

[Dion]

Identifying track types when you literally have track-making samples to work with -- boots, slippers, halfling feet -- would make it easier. Why is this rated so high?

Kenobi only knew Tusken Raiders rode single file to hide their numbers because he was an epic level ranger.

[Rockphed]

Most of the epic section elicits that kind of reaction, honestly. Seriously, an epic feat allows you to nonmagically follow tracks in the air with a DC 120 check....

I like to imagine the designers having a conversation like this:

: "Hey, what's the tracking DC to distinguish between a human wearing boots and a half-elf wearing the same boots?"
: "What, like a three-legged sack race?"
: "No, like a half-elf assassinated a human to impersonate his identity."
: "Pfft, I dunno; let's say....We have 40 as the "nearly impossible" skill DC for ridiculous attempts, right? Let's bump it up a take-20, and call it DC 60 to distinguish creatures of the same type by tracks."
: "Really? That high?"
: "Sure. You can write a cool round number; and any sane player will use magic. Besides, a DM should know better than to let a tracking DC derail their adventure anyway, so it hardly matters."
: "Oh, okay."

There is not enough booze in that conversation. I am fairly certain that one of the designers should be schnockered and the other should be trying to put the moves on the lamp in a corner.

[Jasdoif]

There is not enough booze in that conversation. I am fairly certain that one of the designers should be schnockered and the other should be trying to put the moves on the lamp in a corner.

No, no; that one's Escape Artist.

Want to squeeze through a two-inch gap? Don't worry, DC 80 and your head will fit! Want to squeeze through a wall of force? No problem, DC 120 and you can find a gap that would mean the spell would have failed if it existed!

[KorvinStarmast]

If y'all keep this up, we'll end up with a blitzkrieg bop (or maybe a ballroom blitz).

There's a sweet memory.

Something about multidimensional stone reminds me of acid rock; Spirit, to be specific, and with Belkar rangering better, the animal zoo may soon include Greyview.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Not my favorite Spirit song (that's a toss up between I Got a Line on You and Taurus, which was totally swiped by Led Zep whatever the 9th Circuit says), but still very good.

[TheNecrocomicon]

It still seems to me that the biggest purpose of the ravine being built up out of multidimensional stone is to further Serini's roguish shell-game.

From the flashback to the Scribblers' final Rift-sealing battle, the tear itself was at ground level. For the entire ravine to be "built up" out of stone, if the Gate was never moved, it must be deep underneath all that in the present day.

The dungeons are the distraction, filled with badass monsters, either to overwhelm and slay whoever comes searching or to keep them occupied indefinitely.

Seeing as multidimensional stone would block ghostforming and other ethereal phasing, as well as divinations, all you need to do is surround the Gate with a thick enough continuous layer of the magically formed stone and no one would be able to divine its exact location, nor get to it, short of physically tunnelling there inch by inch. Think Girard's lead sheeting, only way more durable, which even makes a little sense if he and Serini kept up regular correspondence.

I'm still of the opinion that none of the dungeons lead to the gate, and it is sealed away deep down there somewhere. And the statue of Kraagor at the surface would serve as a useful marker of its location down below, to someone who knew what to look for and knew it was more than just a memorial.

[danielxcutter]

Well, I’m pretty sure that either the ravine itself never existed before Serini built it over the Gate, or it’s somewhere else. I don’t think the Rift would have fit in the statue, though.

[Ron Miel]

I don’t think the Rift would have fit in the statue, though.

Maybe the statue is multidimensional stone.

[ebarde]

I dunno if this is gonna amount to anything important plotwise, or is just gonna be explained later that there is some magic going on that allows for this to happen and that is that. I think it might be important, cause if it wasn't, it could be fairly easy to have had Redcloak note on what's going on to the reader earlier in the Team Evil scenes. A lot of times when the giant doesn't feel like sometihing needs a thorough explanation he just has a character make a theory of what could possibly be happening just so it doesn't become a plot hole. And considering there were a few times where that could have been done, I feel that this is going to be a bigger thing later on.

[Deathhappens]

After 30 minutes, Elan realized that the game was, indeed, called "Go". Bardic tradition just forbade him from giving up the spirit of Lou Costello.

.......man, how did Hinjo manage to stay a Paladin around Elan for literal months?

Higher on the Wisdom, lower on the combat stats. Explains why he couldn't beat Miko but was still her direct superior.

[danielxcutter]

Maybe the statue is multidimensional stone.

Until proven otherwise, I presume "multidimensional stone" means "exists on both the Material and Ethereal Planes and thus can't be penetrated through those methods.

We'll have to see, though.

[Quebbster]

Higher on the Wisdom, lower on the combat stats. Explains why he couldn't beat Miko but was still her direct superior.

Miko was the highest-ranking paladin in the Sapphire Guard before her Fall, so Hinjo wasn't her superior at that point. When he became commander Miko had already Fallen.

[TheNecrocomicon]

Well, I’m pretty sure that either the ravine itself never existed before Serini built it over the Gate, or it’s somewhere else. I don’t think the Rift would have fit in the statue, though.

I don't mean to say it's in the statue -- that would probably be way too susceptible to damage, even accidentally.

I mean to say that the statue is (or seems very likely to me to be) the "X marks the spot" for where the Gate/Rift sits deep below, completely surrounded by said multidimensional stone.

[bunsen_h]

We know that there's an arcane/divine ritual that can move the rift to a different plane. How sure are we that there isn't some kind of spell that could have moved the rift to some other location?

For that matter, just moving the rift to another plane, in a small open space inside the multidimensional stone, would be a nice bit of extra protection. The Dark One created the Crimson Mantle to pass the necessary information about the ritual to its wearer, but I don't think we have any reason to think that that information is unique to the Mantle.

[ShaneWegner]

I think someone mentioned this earlier, but Belkar's comment about the halfling footsteps would serve as pretty great foreshadowing if it is Serini. Which I am still betting on.

Agreed. I think "Proper Bare Halfling Feet" could be a double up. Belkar's steps obviously, but given it feels like there's a good chance the invisible mystery assailants were Sirini and whoever her disciple/lieutenant is these days, that could be hidden foreshadowing that Belkar saw more evidence than he understood to interpret.

[Jasdoif]

We know that there's an arcane/divine ritual that can move the rift to a different plane. How sure are we that there isn't some kind of spell that could have moved the rift to some other location?

Fairly sure.

....
So, no, the Gate or the rift could not have been physically moved. The Sapphire could be moved, and Xykon would have been obligated to track it down and undo its magic before he could perform his ritual, but there would be a risk in doing so, and it wouldn't really have stopped Xykon from sieging the city at that point (because he still would have needed the immovable Gate).

The use of Redcloak's magic ritual to shift the Gate into another plane is entirely unrelated, and in fact can only shift a Gate to another plane—not to another place in THIS plane. Think of it like moving a Bag of Holding from the Prime to an Outer Plane: you've moved the entranceway to an extradimensional space, but opening it still leads to the same interior.

[bunsen_h]

Fairly sure.

That makes it clear that the rift and gate couldn't have been moved trivially, but doesn't rule out the possibility that the rift could have been moved by application of the proper magic. Am I remembering correctly that Redcloak's ritual takes a few days to complete?

[Jasdoif]

That makes it clear that the rift and gate couldn't have been moved trivially, but doesn't rule out the possibility that the rift could have been moved by application of the proper magic.

I suppose; but if the rifts could be moved freely, then leaving them on the planet seems like a rather egregious oversight.

Am I remembering correctly that Redcloak's ritual takes a few days to complete?

A few weeks.

[Ghosty]

I know we must have covered this already, but the flashback scenes with the Scribbles and the Gates were done in crayon, indicating an unreliable narrator, right? So even though the flashback scenes have matched up fairly well to the actual geometries of each Gate and its surroundings, that doesn't have to be true for Serini's Gate.

Though if Serini was able to have interdimensional stone thrown around like the Burj Khalifa uses concrete---despite the cost being high enough that the dwarven builders felt it necessary to cut corners on the Tomb's construction---nothing says the Gate can't be buried under a few hundred feet of the stuff. I.e., it was at ground-level, like in the crayon drawing, and then Serini's dwarves showed up and raised the ground.

[Peelee]

That makes it clear that the rift and gate couldn't have been moved trivially, but doesn't rule out the possibility that the rift could have been moved by application of the proper magic.

I, for one, take "no, the Gate or the rift could not have been physically moved" to mean that no, the Gate or the right can not be physically moved. Even with magic. Nothing in there indicated triviality to me.

[Quizatzhaderac]

I came here to say "But who's on first?!", but I was sadly too late.

Not you.

Okay who else tried to wipe Blackwing off the first panel on their screen?

I did.

I just had a thought. Maybe Monster Hollow is all multidimensional because it's at the north pole?

Well, the north pole is a coordinate singularity, just like the event horizon of a black hole.

The game is named Go. It's called many other things, especially by people who love it and by sore losers. It may have other names in cultures other than the Azurites', if any exist in Stickworld that play the game.

But that would imply other cultures have different languages, which seems like a huge unnecessary headache.

Oona mentioned that the bugbears have "certain berries" so there would seem to be exposed dirt for part of the year, unless the plants grow in snow or in the dungeons.

Also, if the surface never thaws, you have a glacier and literally nothing growing.

O-Chul, thats where he was hiding and he had a Go set with him

I'm reminded that O-Chul didn't buy the stones to play with Lien. Maybe he's been sneaking off to play with MitD?

[Fyraltari]

Well, the north pole is a coordinate singularity, just like the event horizon of a black hole.

The singularity is at the center of the black hole, the event horizon is at its "edge". Not the same thing.

[Rockphed]

I'm reminded that O-Chul didn't buy the stones to play with Lien. Maybe he's been sneaking off to play with MitD?

No, he didn't buy them for Lien, but he will gladly play a game with Lien if she gets bored enough. He will probably give her whatever handicap she wants too. And compose caligraphy and poetry while waiting for her to make her move.

[F.Harr]

I'm sure Therkla was very entertained. :)