OOTS #1203 - The Discussion Thread

[factotum]

Just to note: I'm pretty sure the Istari were forbidden to use their angelic power at all (because doing so would risk another cataclysm like the one that sunk Beleriand), they were only allowed to use powers that were available to regular mortals in Middle-Earth. So, technically a regular human could become a wizard like Gandalf or Saruman, it's just the long lives of the Istari gave them an advantage over regular humans in how much they could learn.

[bunsen_h]

Just to note: I'm pretty sure the Istari were forbidden to use their angelic power at all (because doing so would risk another cataclysm like the one that sunk Beleriand), they were only allowed to use powers that were available to regular mortals in Middle-Earth. So, technically a regular human could become a wizard like Gandalf or Saruman, it's just the long lives of the Istari gave them an advantage over regular humans in how much they could learn.

Do we ever see or hear about anyone doing anything magic-y who doesn't have some kind of "special" background? It's hard to make a distinction between "Aragorn could do stuff because of his heritage" and "Aragorn could do stuff because of his special upbringing and because his heritage gave him an extended livespan in which to learn". The lembas was said to have been baked by Galadriel herself, IIRC; the magic-ish elvish robes and rope might also have required input by Galadriel. There's the stuff about the Mouth of Sauron and the Witch-King of Angmar, but again, IIRC they had the Numenorian heritage.

EDIT: There are also artefacts such as the swords, but again, they were forged in the ancient past.

[factotum]

Galadriel isn't really special, though--she's just an Elf. The only thing that marks her apart from most of her kind is that she was one of those who went to Aman to live with the Valar, and then came back to Middle-Earth with Feanor chasing the Silmarils. And I think the point made about her baking the lembas wasn't to say she was the only one who could, but that this particular batch had been made specially for the Fellowship because they're just that darned important.

[Peelee]

Spoiler: I enjoy reading debates about LOTR, but I always feel like this regardless

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[Fyraltari]

Do we ever see or hear about anyone doing anything magic-y who doesn't have some kind of "special" background? It's hard to make a distinction between "Aragorn could do stuff because of his heritage" and "Aragorn could do stuff because of his special upbringing and because his heritage gave him an extended livespan in which to learn". The lembas was said to have been baked by Galadriel herself, IIRC; the magic-ish elvish robes and rope might also have required input by Galadriel. There's the stuff about the Mouth of Sauron and the Witch-King of Angmar, but again, IIRC they had the Numenorian heritage.

EDIT: There are also artefacts such as the swords, but again, they were forged in the ancient past.

Beorn the skin-changer. Quoth Tolkien ‘Beorn was a bit of a magician but still just a man’. Seeing as Beorn knows Radagast and Gandalf describes him as a master of shapes and hues, there’s a fan-theory that Beorn was taught by him.
Edit: also the Druedain. Everything about the Druedain.

Galadriel isn't really special, though--she's just an Elf. The only thing that marks her apart from most of her kind is that she was one of those who went to Aman to live with the Valar, and then came back to Middle-Earth with Feanor chasing the Silmarils. And I think the point made about her baking the lembas wasn't to say she was the only one who could, but that this particular batch had been made specially for the Fellowship because they're just that darned important.

Galadriel is special for an Elf, she was born under the Two Trees and their light was captured in her hair, Feänor even ask her for a lock to help him craft the ‘marils (she refused).
As for lembas only the queen (or lady in her case) of a tribe of Elves is allowed to bake some and we know Melina used to as well so it’s not just a Galadriel thing.

[Rockphed]

Galadriel is special for an Elf, she was born under the Two Trees and their light was captured in her hair, Feänor even ask her for a lock to help him craft the ‘marils (she refused).

That makes it all the more special that she gave Gimli some of her hair.

[Fyraltari]

That makes it all the more special that she gave Gimli some of her hair.

Yeah, it's great. What's more Feänor asked (and was denied) three times, and Gimli asked for one lock and was given three.

Spoiler: It's not stated but this is obviously what Legolas is thinking about here

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[Quizatzhaderac]

And unless I'm highly mistaken, doesn't it generally take wizards to produce and form something like "multidimensional stone", and dwarves aren't overly fond of wizardry?

Nothing magical about multidimensional stone at all! It's simply the natural result of proper dwarven mining.

You see, when humans mine, they do a superficial job and only focus on three spacial dimensions and let the stone they extract be overly thin otherwise.

[Peelee]

Yeah, it's great. What's more Feänor asked (and was denied) three times, and Gimli asked for one lock and was given three.

Spoiler: It's not stated but this is obviously what Legolas is thinking about here

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I'm pretty sure Legolas was thinking "yeah, that makes sense. John Rhys-Davies is a treasure, after all."

[Grey Watcher]

Nothing magical about multidimensional stone at all! It's simply the natural result of proper dwarven mining.

You see, when humans mine, they do a superficial job and only focus on three spacial dimensions and let the stone they extract be overly thin otherwise.

If this were Discworld, this would be the canon explanation.

[Kantaki]

Yeah, it's great. What's more Feänor asked (and was denied) three times, and Gimli asked for one lock and was given three.

And now I'm imagining Feänor hearing about this.
Considering the guy's temper the fireworks would be glorious.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

If this were Discworld, this would be the canon explanation.

Except for the graffiti they believe in so much it has become a demon of vengeance of their own creation, of course.

Grey Wolf

[hroþila]

There's also the issue that plenty of things that the hobbits and we as readers consider magic aren't magic at all for the people doing them, especially the Elves. Anyway, my two favourite bits of magic in Tolkien's legendarium are:
1) Gandalf and the Balrog using a spell and a counterspell on the door to the Mazarbul chamber.
2) Finrod dueling Sauron in a magic sing-off.

Galadriel is special for an Elf, she was born under the Two Trees and their light was captured in her hair, Feänor even ask her for a lock to help him craft the ‘marils (she refused).
As for lembas only the queen (or lady in her case) of a tribe of Elves is allowed to bake some and we know Melina used to as well so it’s not just a Galadriel thing.

Emphasis on "lady" (from Old English hlæfdige, equivalent to hlaf, "loaf", plus dæge, "kneader", related to "dough"). Tolkien loved doing nerdy stuff like this.

[ebarde]

Plot twist is that Galandriel would only give one but pulled the other 2 by mistake, and just tried to pass it off as it was her intent all along to save face. Also, I'm fairly sure some descriptions of the Hobbits' stealth abilities, seem to imply that there is more to it than just being short and having light feet

[Fyraltari]

And now I'm imagining Feänor hearing about this.
Considering the guy's temper the fireworks would be glorious.

Fëanor: *destructive temper tantrum*
Mandos: And that’s another 100, 000 years added to your time in here.

There's also the issue that plenty of things that the hobbits and we as readers consider magic aren't magic at all for the people doing them, especially the Elves. Anyway, my two favourite bits of magic in Tolkien's legendarium are:
1) Gandalf and the Balrog using a spell and a counterspell on the door to the Mazarbul chamber.
2) Finrod dueling Sauron in a magic sing-off.

My favorite is that Denethor ignored Faramir’s dream-vision si long that Eru just gave up and sent it to Boromir as well. Denethor, such a bad parent even the creator of the universe has to give in to his favoritism.

Emphasis on "lady" (from Old English hlæfdige, equivalent to hlaf, "loaf", plus dæge, "kneader", related to "dough"). Tolkien loved doing nerdy stuff like this.

Douglas Adams does not write jokes in base 13 but John Tolkien definitely puns in Old English.

[ebarde]

I know this is Tolkien so it would be like some folk type music, but I just imagine Sauron roasting a dude with all his Balrogs cheering him on

[Fyraltari]

I know this is Tolkien so it would be like some folk type music, but I just imagine Sauron roasting a dude with all his Balrogs cheering him on

Well aside for the Balrogs (who don’t work for Sauron, at least not at this time) you’re not wrong:

Spoiler: The duel

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“Thus befell the contest of Sauron and Felagund which is renowned. For Felagund strove with Sauron in songs of power, and the power of the King was very great; but Sauron had the mastery, as is told in the Lay of Leithian:

He chanted a song of wizardry,
Of piercing, opening, of treachery,
Revealing, uncovering, betraying.
Then sudden Felagund there swaying
Sang in answer a song of staying,
Resisting, battling against power,
Of secrets kept, strength like a tower,
And trust unbroken, freedom, escape;
Of changing and of shifting shape,
Of snares eluded, broken traps,
The prison opening, the chain that snaps.
Backwards and forwards swayed their song.
Reeling and foundering, as ever more strong
The chanting swelled, Felagund fought,
And all the magic and miht he brought
Of Elvenesse into his words.
Softly in the gloom they heard the birds
Singing afar in Nargothrond,
The sighing of the sea beyond,
Beyond the western world, on sand,
On sand of pearls in Elvenland.
Then the gloom gathered; darkness growing
In Valinor, the red blood flowing
Beside the Sea, where the Noldor slew
The Foamriders, and stealing drew
Their white ships with their white sails
From lamplit havens. The wind wails,
The wolf howls. The ravens flee.
The ice mutters in the mouths of the Sea.
The captives sad in Angband mourn.
Thunder rumbles, the fires burn –
And Finrod fell before the throne.

Then Sauron stripped from them their disguise, and they stood before him naked and afraid. But though their kinds were revealed, Sauron could not discover their names or their purposes.”

Noldor, blood is on your haaaaaaaands!

Spoiler: This used to be my phone’s screen image

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[hroþila]

That is one sweet screen image.

One thing that's often overlooked is that Finrod did all that while still disguised as an Orc. Just picture that.

[Whispri]

Hinjo only has himself to blame. "The name of the game is Go." Is that so hard? Maybe add a pause or some air quotes if necessary.

Indeed, Hinjo was being quite the cretin. I'm honestly surprised that no one's ever strangled him.

That makes sense, plus even Gandalf, one of the greatest spellcasters in the series, is competent in melee combat. It’s different from D&D where even the most non-magical adventurer wants some kind of magic item.

Gandalf's a bard though. He just calls himself a wizard.

[KorvinStarmast]

Gandalf's a bard though. He just calls himself a wizard.

Gandalf's an NPC, and I'd guess a high level Celestial/Archangel sort.

I get the idea that the Valar are demigods, or Archangels, or minor deities subordinate to Illuvitar - they have a lot of similarities to various deities of various pantheons the associate a deity with the raw forces of nature, or the major archetypes: Wind, the Earth, the Harvest, the Smith, the Sea, the Hunger, the Mother, and son on. The Istari/Maiar are powerful servants, more or less Celestial / Angels etc. That puts Melkor somewhere near the disobedient yet grandest archangel or demigod.

I seem to recall some disobedient gods in the Greek Pantheon, and of course Loki in the Norse Pantheon is ever the trickster / schemer, but I'd need to pick up Bullfinch again to get a name for the Greek one. (Hera comes to mind as being at odds with Zeus, but I am not sure if "disobedient" fits - just some stress in the marriage...and understandable given his philandering ... )

[Fyraltari]

[QUOTE=Whispri;24536885]Indeed, Hinjo was being quite the cretin. I'm honestly surprised that no one's ever strangled him.[quote]
Careful, you might become a bad plaque person.

Gandalf's a bard though. He just calls himself a wizard.

Yeah that joke wasn’t funny the first time I saw it on the internet and it’s not become funnier in the two hundred times since.

[KorvinStarmast]

Yeah that joke wasn’t funny the first time I saw it on the internet and it’s not become funnier in the two hundred times since.

FWIW, there was a thread on the D&D 5e sub forum where people tried to stat out various LoTR characters for that edition; the case for Gandalf as a Bard, College of Lore, was reasonably well made.


(And of course the "Gandalf was a 5th level magic user" rubbish from back in the 70's when D&D was new).

[bunsen_h]

Gandalf's a bard though. He just calls himself a wizard.

I sometimes play with the conceit that the fundamental nature of Tolkien's world is the music that Eru brought into being at the beginning of time, and that what we see (through the Hobbits' eyes, as set down in the books) is merely the physical manifestation of that music. Magical effects involve making music, or modulating the music. People with magical perceptions are able to "hear" the underlying music directly, rather than being limited to perceiving only its manifestation in physical form.

[Snails]

Galadriel is special for an Elf, she was born under the Two Trees and their light was captured in her hair, Feänor even ask her for a lock to help him craft the ‘marils (she refused).

Yes, this.

Galadriel was special for an elf, compared directly to Feänor in potential, albeit with a more subtle nature.

In fact, her greatness was so apparent that she declared her desire to leave her father and found her own kingdom in Middle Earth, and had no trouble finding followers. That they died in droves crossing the great ice was not part of her original plan, but follow her leadership through great toil they nonetheless did.

[Oshirokita]

I agree with Shoelessgdofwar that most people here failed their humor check. It seems completely obvious and hilarious that Belkar is detecting the tracks just left by Oots.
When it turns out that Serini was there, it will be ironic that Belkar accidentally determined a halfling was there by seeing his own footprint.

[hamishspence]

"Looks like just them and us".



So he recognises some of the tracks as the Order's own.

[ebarde]

While it would be kinda amusing I guess, I feel that there is a certain separation of those kinds of jokes and plot relevant stuff in OOTS. Maybe not in the earlier days, but I feel that it might be a bit cheap to use the Rule of Funny to such a plot relevant and somewhat convenient effect if that makes sense? Although I admit that this is ultimately a hard line to draw, I just think it would be weird if such a plot revelation was facilitated this much by an old joke that seemingly doesn't seem to apply anymore since Belkar did some pretty decent tracking in this page.

Also, you could make the argument that it undercuts a bit of his character development. As he started out not being a team player that was unable to do the one thing he was actually hired to do, but now that he has grown as a person and a teammate he can fulfill his role in the party.

[Oshirokita]

"Looks like just them and us".



So he recognises some of the tracks as the Order's own.

Exactly! ....

[danielxcutter]

Hmm... do "spells of the caliber" refer to [Evil] spells? At least some of the Symbol line spells are Evil, as well as Animate Dead et. al. That being said, I don't think Xykon actually uses that many... Epic spells would leave a lingering aura for days, but that hardly counts as "most commonly". Even Xykon can't have more than three per day, and at least one slot goes into Epic Mage Armor. Spells that are 10th-level or higher also leave auras like that, but I don't think metamagic counts.

On a slightly different point, does anyone feel like Xykon... would be a bit too powerful for the Order, if this was an actual tabletop game? Evidence leans heavily for him to be at least in the late-20s CR range; I'd personally balk at using anything like that on a non-epic party. The DMG doesn't even supply XP for creatures 7 CR or higher than the party's average ECL; that's how much of a gap there is!

Yes, there are several factors in favor of the Order; Roy's sword, Durkon's artifact hammer, and of course knowing most of what the enemy can do while essentially remaining unknown themselves probably bumps the effective Encounter Level by at least three or four points. And there's also potential to drive a wedge between the Big X and his "allies". And of course, this isn't an actual game, so The Giant can "fudge the rolls". I'm just saying that I wouldn't throw that at a party like the Order without giving them some very big guns of their own.

[Nith]

Hmm... do "spells of the caliber" refer to [Evil] spells? At least some of the Symbol line spells are Evil, as well as Animate Dead et. al. That being said, I don't think Xykon actually uses that many... Epic spells would leave a lingering aura for days, but that hardly counts as "most commonly". Even Xykon can't have more than three per day, and at least one slot goes into Epic Mage Armor. Spells that are 10th-level or higher also leave auras like that, but I don't think metamagic counts.

Does the core rules really mention stuff like "background radiation" type residual evidence of spells? I haven't played much DnD, my impression was that it was something not mentioned by the rules so the Giant could just make it up.